Schizophrenia and Shamanism | Joe Polimeni | Evolving Psychiatry Podcast #29

Joe Polimeni is a Canadian general psychiatrist and Associate Professor at the University of Manitoba who has conducted research in neuroscience, psychopharmacology and evolutionary psychiatry. His book, Shamans Among Us, outlines his hypothesis regarding the evolution of schizophrenia, which is the topic of this episode.
You can purchase the book here: josephpolimeni...
You can follow Adam Hunt on Twitter/X @RealAdamHunt

[@evolive1985]

I had a psychotic episode and was told all this. I told the doctors that people like me have always existed and they don't understand this at all. I had a profound spiritual experience and a lot of premonitions that came true, like the lock downs the virus my mother dying of cancer. Basically they don't want to believe the things they don't understand. People like us should actually be listened to and respected not disregarded. We tend to see the things that are going wrong with society and our messages are warning. They also provide guidance that will allow our species to survive. Anyway people don't actually understand this in this time zone. They will again in the future as they did in the past. This world was formed as a result of the delusions of one man called Jesus and now we don't want to accept the wisdom of the spirits because we're all afraid of God. God is real and is within all of us. He's our conscience and most of us have managed so suppress him. But that little voice in your heads is about to start screaming at you and is capable of killing you from the inside. That's what I was told. Listen if you want. Or just start listening to your conscience if you can't accept people like me.

[@georgetenkate2079]

Love you! Have exactly the same situation. I completely accept, respect, believe and love you for who you are, for you are as me, we are one. I wish you many blessings and send you a lot of love! The truth will come out! 💌💌💌💌💌💌

[@patrickmillar7517]

As a fellow ‘schizophrenic’, your comment made a lot of sense.

[@dartskihutch4033]

I totally agree, however id suggest looking into the gnostic teaching of jesus. I believe jesus to have been the most influential and connecting spiritual guide of our time but had been selectively molded into what the controlling world needed him to appear as so they could use him as a tool of control, of course. Psychedlics play a big role in this big puzzle in general as well.

[@sP-tp2gh]

It is fascinating to me how science would regard your story as anecdotal, yet countless cultures have depended on the shamonic/ schizophrenic mind. I wish these 2 would have touched on Jung or Campbell with regard to these topics. (Jung was very Familiar with the realm of psychosis, As he dealt with it himself.) It seems too that schizophrenic patients are affected not just by the industrial society in which we live, but the stigma that is now attached to this condition. In primitive societies there seems to be a better approach. "The psychotic drowns in the same waters in which the mystic swims with delight."( Joseph Campbell)

[@TheBlackCat1337]

yeah i knew exact day the lockdowns in my country would happen in early sept 19' no one listens, they just want you to give it to them and walk them through

[@nataanda2486]

mindblowing research. greetings from a person with schizophrenia in switzerland, I do intuitive rituals every time im psychotic.

[@esp1ne]

I have been waiting for this one!!

[@witchdylan]

Same

[@moo2608]

Hello i am an adoptee, my birth dad was schizophrenic and his mum was schizophrenic and my dad was taken from her and adopted. My dad was placed in a mental health institution. I havent met either of them, i was told that my dad saw spirits and heard voices and i have similar experiences. I also write down what i see and draw what i see. Theres also a phenomenon called ghost kingdoms, dissociation and imaginary realms. I have had three psychotic episodes. I havent had any drugs for it nor do i want to, nor have i saught out therapists help because i feel like i case study the only other time i went. I prefer looking at shamanism because to me it has a lot more empthathy and a space within the community in other cultures that hold the disorder instead of hiding them away. I would like to know more about this subject because it is something i deal with. At this point im 25 and i am struggling within this western society so i am going to seek out help but i am very nervous

[@moo2608]

I also do use divination and its accurate. My adoptee mum is spiritual so she has helped me to not see it as a negative thing but it still is at time unnerving and scary as well as at times being a beautiful experience. I would much prefer going to elder shamans or teachers then to sit in a clinical study being studied. I hope this makes sense but unfortunately I live in a western world but if you do have anymore research I would love to know it

[@skelly8500]

Literally anything that is hard to explain causes people to come up with magical solutions, as the brain hates not feeling like it understands. That being said with how little we understand consciousness, either as an emergent property of our complex brains or some form of local universal awareness, I think paying attention to the patterns in which we find meaning is always worth keeping somewhere in the back of the rational mind.

[@lilmissnicetunes]

F**k AYE mate!!! .....abso-F-ing-lutely!! Always.... Trust. ..niCe OnE ! 😇

[@Common_Teacher__3]

I'm always curious about this topic. If ADHD were hunters type of people, what could be relate to schizo~?

[@TheOuSsaZ]

Shamans

[@freestylethought]

thankful for this

[@pra10vaga]

Thanks a lot for making this video. And.....interesting hypothesis, but in order for it to be really interesting I feel it needs to be expanded upon. For example, by testing predictions that stem from the hypothesis. Has there for example been any mathematical modeling on the size of 'group benefits' of having a schizophrenic shaman/priest in the group? Are there individual-based advantages to schizophrenia if one becomes the 'shaman' of the group, and has it been investigated whether religious leaders have more offspring than the average person in the popualtion?

[@PiterRaskol]

Really interesting!!! It makes me think a lot… not only shamans among us but a bit of a shaman inside us, also… how the rejection of religiosity, superstition, let some individuals out of our society… or some parts of our psyche 🧐🧐

[@peacepresidentunited]

It may be a good idea to drop the idea of phenotypes and genotypes and look at this as merely experience, and perspectives as filtered through the mind. However, that doesn't leave much room for egoic-mind to create labels and categories.

[@hudrob]

Apologies for not listening to the whole thing. It’s a little too materialist for me. But one question I really want to ask is; why do you suppose that literally every culture except for modern western materialist culture has shamans and insists on the reality of spirits and magic yet we’re the only culture presumptuous and sanctimonious enough to proclaim that all the rest are wrong and we’re somehow right while also cleaving to the belief that shamanism doesn’t really work or help mankind but it’s kinder to think of the loopy ones amongst us that way than it is to pathologise them as schizophrenic?

[@criticalconfusion3149]

Fascinating

[@buttercxpdraws8101]

Interesting.

[@evinenry8422]

We want to understand things using words, which are shapes written down or with sounds when pronounced. The exact meaning of what, or which must be learned. The consensus of what words mean are served up to us by a education system that is not aware that outside of their awareness exists alternative shifts in perception. An example would be a western educated anthropologist with a couple languages and 2 cultures under his belt immersing themselves in a foreign land where they know not the culture, nor the language, yet observe the elders perform unknown healing modalities that appear to have visible curing effects in ways they do not yet understand. So the opportunity is a LEARNING opportunity for the west, of words, techniques, science or investigation outside of their awareness into that which only curious minds will help solve. If you don't have the knowledge of the correct question that needs to be asked in order for the exact right answer to be answered, then you are not really adding value to the situation. it appears much of the psyche is non-physical, yet the medical system attempts to solve disorders in a way that appears they have a physical or material solution to answer a question they haven't properly asked, they have a solution to a non-physical symptom, an answer to that which they cannot define materially has now all of a sudden a material solution. this is largely because they can only write and gain consensus with peers on physical or material events. they cannot get consensus on non-physical information that resides in a psyche, self, or mind because those entities are not measurable with physical tools in a world of matter or material. medicines are largely made from plants, minerals, and matter that is manipulated by heat, solutions and chemical addition or reduction. yet in the cellular levels the information exchange to react to the medicine is occuring on multiple planes of nerves and bioactivity,, Sound and color are information. Heat and cold, or wet or dry are sensed as physical symptoms. what isn't measureable is non-physical intrusions from where we know not, by whom we know not, by what we know not,. these intrusions of the sort described by military pilots in the disclosure of uap and the older term ufo are largely under wraps still. the very lid on these subjects is about to boil over and the qty of cases of people having non-physical intrusion in their life are being labelled by people who have a scientific rationality lid on what box conscious thought is allowed to fit into. this is continually proven wrong. this closed mindedness isn't the patient, its the system they land into that has defined for them the box of rationality that is allowed to exist, by known knowns that just ain't so and the evidence of this is the sheer increase in cases of events that are unknown unknowns that are presented to thinkers of the day who preside over what the rest of us are rationally allowed to entertain in our minds before its crossed the bridge from imagination to disorder. well there is no box on imagination, mind, or the psyche. there is a universe of mind, psyche, and imagination out there and its limitless. natural laws may have limits, in this material world but there are yet to be invented technologies that will have yet to be invented words that will be limitless in scope and scale, our society needs to spend more time in their imagination, for the speed of thought is non-physical and all that comes into form comes from that realm, we can solve any problem with non-physical imagination but that is suppressed by those who haven't got one. That is unfortunate. There are people who have experiences who haven't the words to describe the events they experienced. Life is just the chapter before death, and after birth. Each life is unique, we are not in control of our own birth, and in most cases not in control of the ending either. Meaning is something we define for ourselves up to the point that we can be allowed to express it. Not everything that is said is what happened and not everything that happened can ever be said. i think the next revolution is non-local, non-physical, non-ordinary and non-stoppable. the crafts buzzing our air forces are from other when and other where and this irks the powers that were from accepting they don't control that which they thought they did, and there in no box except in their own programmed mind as to what reality really is to put this in.

[@freestylethought]

thankyou for this I love your thinking

[@MengzisDisciple]

The Path of the Hero: Main cause of mental illness and pain is dopamine. Seeking after pleasures and pains. Every addiction can be traced to it. This is the first task on the path to being a sage (or Shaman--or a prophet like Jesus)--controlling one's inner monkey/rabbit. But in controlling/moderating the ego (animal impulses--bodily needs), this allows one to be more aware of the insula. The insula controls homeostasis of our moods with serotonin (among other things). We have much less serotonin in the brains than dopamine--it is weaker. If in a state of excitement--either pleasures or pains, it cannot be felt. There being two ways of dampening the dopamine system--overuse and via works (meditation/diet/exercise). Some perceive the overuse as magic or grace of God (a mystical experience--Paul or JJ Rousseau for just two examples). Of course, Jesus and most philosophers teach via "works". This is the virtue-contentment area of the brain, that is usually over-ridden by the dopamine system. This area is also responsible for our mirroring neurons--what people associate with empathy, compassion, or love--as well as righteousness/shame (there being four cardinal virtues). As when one's heart is not perturbed (due to amygdala--emotional center), it becomes pure and this gives us serene joy--contentment. This is the goal of most religions and philosophies (ataraxia). However, this area is also where manic-depression comes from and psychosis. As it too has to be kept in moderation. If not, then the mania (or pride) just leads to depression. Pride being a "secondary emotion." And this area is also associated with psychosis and schizophrenia--and natural DMT release. But these are just the natural steps of human existence. The Path of the Hero if you like. 0-20--state of innocence and learning. 20-40--a state of learning to control the emotions and desires. 40-60--reaching a state of virtue and learning the difference between good and evil, and learning the need for balance here. 60-???--returning to a state of innocence, and learning to accept death and one's coming destruction (which requires a letting go of material things).

[@dartskihutch4033]

This is very interesting. Where did you read this im curious? Or any ressources or recommendations would be helpful. Thanks!!

[@MengzisDisciple]

@@dartskihutch4033 My own studies in Eastern philosophy (Confucianism and Taoism) mixed with Epicureanism/Stoicism, Hinduism, Theosophy, Humanism, and works on neuroscience--especially that of Damascio, Bud Craig, and Robert Lustig.

[@MengzisDisciple]

@@dartskihutch4033 From Wiki on amygdala: "Buddhist monks who do compassion meditation have been shown to modulate their amygdala, along with their temporoparietal junction and insula, during their practice.[55] In an fMRI study, more intensive insula activity was found in expert meditators than in novices."

[@hennyonhennyonhennyonhenny]

u said this is the path to becoming a shaman or prophet but why would one want to become s prophet or shaman other then the PLEASURE of boosting ones ego!!!

[@MengzisDisciple]

@@hennyonhennyonhennyonhenny Don't confuse "pleasure" (dopamine) with true joy (serotonin). Two different areas and systems of the mind. Going back to Epicurus and all the way to JS Mill and now shown by science to be true, philosophers have claimed two types of joy--the type that comes and go, and the type that is static and is always there (but in a much weaker state...). Look up the word ataraxia and apatheia. Stoics claimed if you controlled your emotions and followed virtue and did good things, you would feel joy. Is this true? Do you feel good when you are a good person and how do you feel when you do bad things, say like tell lies to others. I'm betting the former makes you feel anxiety and fear--as you are putting yourself in a possible confrontation with them if your lie is exposed. So it is not "pleasure" that leads you to the Path---it is Reason and possessing wisdom to know the difference between "good and evil." Something you experience all the time if you just take the time to meditate and think about it, and get to know yourself and what your true motivations are.

[@tjlopez92]

Maybe its because i dont technically have schizophrenia, but instead have been diagnosed with major depressive disorder with psychotic features (the psych. feats. being the voices i hear every day), i sure the fuck would not liken it to anything like that, although i have wondered at times if theyre straight up evil spirits or entities that are attached to me.

[@atura5502]

I always felt like I would have been a great shaman. Its interesting that this train of tought acually makes sense.

[@moontiggsland]

After watching the whole podcast, I can tell that none of you have been with a true shaman or someone going through spontaneous Shamanic awakening, dismemberment, or seen what they can do. When you're in a room with them and you can see phones opening apps without anyone touching them, or music changing, lights blinking and stopping once they ask the spirits to "please stop playing with them," having true predictions of future events, them describing real-life experiences that other people have gone through in their past confirmed by those who actually lived those experiences, and other things that I don't even know how to explain, this podcast would've been completely different.

[@moontiggsland]

Yes, there are a lot of schizophrenics believing they are gods/shamans/whatever, but as a non-religious non-spiritual person, I didn't believe in any of it until I was able to be around these people who can do things I never thought possible.

[@etaoing9078]

@@moontiggslandwhy is there no legitimate evidence footage

[@abcabc9893]

Can you elaborate on your direct witnessing of what you have seen and in what context.

[@moontiggsland]

@etaoing9078 because you'd have to be at the right place and time, and on top of that, have concent. Don't forget that most shamanic societies are very guarded, and only in the past 20 years they started to open up more. On top of that, smartphones and cameras in many places in the jungle hadn't been easily available, like in most cities are.

[@moontiggsland]

@abcabc9893 I have connections with an ayahuasca retreat, and due to the languages I speak, I've been involved in the translations to assist someone who's been going through a spontaneous shamanic awakening. That person has not only been seen by a shaman but by therapists, and they all agreed that she isn't suffering from schizophrenia or psychosis. The things she can do out of nowhere without training are fascinating.

[@sporter527]

bruh

[@MadMarcWinnipeg]

I found you MF. You should have never done what you did to me.

[@derekpmoore]

Tall people don’t play basketball