The Heartbreaking Reality of GWENSHIPs... (Gwen, Miles, & Peter)

[@schnee1]

NOTE: Got hit with a copyright claim on music (grr sony... 😠) so I had to mute a couple clips and cut out the initial one. The quote that got muted was Gwen saying: **"In every other universe, Gwen Stacy falls for Spider-man... and in every other universe, it doesn't end well."** (clip that opened the vid initially was miles and gwen "You and me, it's..." "We're... the same. In the important ways...")

[@dgmilloway]

That footage is all over KZbin. Like the entire dang scene with no commentary at all. It's ridiculous to target someone for using it for critique. It's like copyright law in Bizzaro World.

[@jer103]

@@dgmilloway Usually a bot/AI flags that the copyrighted music was used. Then an actual person reviews it, then has to change it to be not flagged. This was in videos on how KZbin currently works after a major change in policy, and what would be flagged as copyright.

[@4DeeNeS4]

Hey Just arrived to...binge thought all of that. The very last video before this one, you used the "in every universe gwen falls for(...)", too. Just wanted to inform you, in case that one could become a problem, too

[@PlutoPlays1]

I'm wandering if why Peter said "Everything is going to be ok" is maybe because he was reassuring himself that it would all be ok before he passed away.

[@Dan-ep9by]

It's almost surreal how much can be analized in 2 hours of movie. How or where can I learn crytical analysis

[@sillyturtleenjoyer1903]

This video made me think about another relationship in this movie, that between Gwen and Hobie. More specifically how Miles perceives their relationship. Like described in this video, Gwen probably closes off any chance at romance, and we as the audience can tell there isnt really a romantic relationship there; but Miles doesn't see that. Because of how Miles perceives Gwen as this grown up figure, he sees her relationship with Hobie as a romantic one. He sees her relationship as the aspirational step, the grown up step. Hobie to him is who he wants to be for Gwen, he wants to be revered more on an equal scale; not as someone who is not caught up.

[@schnee1]

Well said! I felt like there might be something to say here about Hobie, and you nailed it

[@kingpinpasta2934]

The only love triangle in this movie is the one that exists inside Miles’ head

[@StormCatStuff]

Yeah, theres one line that really bothers me; hobie saying "gwen you left your jumper at my place! And your toothbrush!" Because the thing is, "you left your toothbrush at my place" is a classic way for scriptwriters to tell viewers and/or other characters that those two characters had a one night stand. Gwen is 17, max. I think they were trying to hint at her having run away from home and needing shelter and kindness, but i think it came off sounding inappropriate and implied that as well as being forced to grow up emotionally too young, she was also sexually adult. Everything else has been so careful and nuanced in its implications, but i would say they really dropped the ball on the runaway hints

[@sidney9796]

@@StormCatStuff is that a thing? something like "you left your toothbrush at my place" to insinuate one night stands? why would a toothbrush be instrumental to a one night stand lol sounds to me more like a classic sleepover (which is how i took it)

[@Mark-ln2zn]

@@StormCatStuffyea that situation was definitely ment to mess with miles head even tho us the viewers knows Gwen is head over heels for miles and hobie is just the big bro figure who let her crash at his place because she was homeless

[@Rembreiker_lychec9257]

The Gwen hatred blows my mind, she fucked up she knows she fucked up now all she wants to do is fix it and save the man she loves. This is what we call a character arc and hers was incredible to watch.

[@foop145]

For the record, I fully agree that Gwen is an incredible character. That said, she basically told Miles his dad needed to die for the greater good. Not hard to see why some people might struggle to see past that lol

[@certifiedbruhmoment85]

Imo the big thing is that she fucked up but not by fault of her own. She was manipulated, confused. She didn't want to be homeless and she thought that the Spider Society was right and trusted them, as she should. Gwen's motivations were to be able to see Miles, her best friend, her partner. That's it. And as soon as she got the chance to, she did. All of this was supposed to be to help him. She couldn't tell him anyway because Miguel was watching them and if she did, she might've been homeless again. Is it her fault that she trusted something that should've had all the Spider People's safety prioritized? No. But did she hurt Miles? Yes. Now, she realizes how wrong Miguel truly is and she sets off to save him. Gwen is practically selfless and still gets hate.

[@Treck533]

@@foop145Awfully simplistic view of the situation. Gwen thought Miles letting the canon happen would save his life and his universe, she did everything with the goal in mind to protect him.

[@lesvianaura]

​@@foop145 it wasnt just the dad thing either. It was the lack of respect and boundaries for me.

[@lesvianaura]

What blows my mind is how no one sees this from Miles p.o.v. The people he thought were his friends basically turned against him because they couldn't cope with their trauma and depended on the whole "canon event" theory to cope. They chose to not contact him and basically left him alone because Miguel said he was an anomaly. The only person who tried to really help him (though it was kinda late) was Peter B. Miles was alone while everyone else had a community to fall on. Gwen didn't try to do anything until it was too late. You guys can sit here and explain all you want about why she didn't help or why she choose to stay with Miguel, but at the end of the day her actions hurt Miles. She choose a group of people over her friend first, then chose him second- after shit became horrible. That's why people don't like her. It's not hate it's criticism, and people are allowed to feel that way.

[@Mark-ln2zn]

The whole theme of this story is defying destiny/canon and writing your own story and so when Gwen says “Gwen Stacy falling for Spiderman usually doesn’t end well” and Miles responds “there’s a first time for everything” those lines directly link to the message of the story of defying fate and that foreshadows / shows hope of Gwen and Miles finally being able to be together

[@marcosdheleno]

dont forget, she literaly tell his parents that he showed her that "is all possible". meaning, now she belives that they have a chance together, and she will do all she can to make it happen.

[@terence7025]

She also says "...in every other universe...". Not "in every universe." She's still holding out hope that the Captain Cannon is a Parker issue and not a general Spidi issue. She has a Captain still to save. If he can change his then maybe other cannons are different... like Spidi loving Gwen.

[@parisayala6975]

EXACTLY!!! People seem to be forgetting that given the context of the film and the story itself.

[@CLDJ227]

With Miles being an "anomaly" the rules of canon perhaps don't apply to him, and with Gwen's line isn't probably more accurate to say that Gwen Stacy usually falls for Peter Parker than Spiderman 🤔.

[@SpiderMan23000]

well... Gwen Stacy sure does "fall" if she's in love with spiderman

[@TheInfamous23]

Gotta disagree that she was being condescending when she said "Look at you!" She seemed impressed with how far long Miles has come in the year and change since she last saw him

[@Treck533]

Her also mentioning his physical growth spurt, and cringing at noticing it is signs she’s idolizing him and growing stronger romantic feelings more and more.

[@TheInfamous23]

​@@Treck533She's cringing that that's the thing that she points which is awkward which is normal for teenagers that have developed feelings

[@marcosdheleno]

to me, that's her trying to move away from her hug. kinda like her own version of "play dumb, not that dumb".

[@Ian-sm9uv]

Yes, Gwen's impressed, but she's impressed in the way that an experienced person would be at the advancements of a novice. The way she says the line isn't how a person would speak to their peer, but how an adult would speak to a child, or a master would speak to an apprentice. This is the condescension schnee is talking about. It's not mean-spirited, but it's still condescending. We actually do see Gwen being truly impressed later in the movie when she watches Miles escape at spider central, after he chooses to do his own thing. She doesn't say anything, but the expression on her face shows true admiration, signalling a change in her perception from seeing Miles as someone who needs guidance to someone who can provide guidance.

[@marcosdheleno]

@@Ian-sm9uv i would argue that her do admire him, just look at how she responds to her after he saved pav's in-law. the way she responds to him wasnt someone looking from above. but as someone who trully belive what she is saying. she does doubt him being as capable as herself or the others, but in that moment, she saw someone she stand side by side with.

[@janSimiman]

16:20 "don't cry. you're perfect." I wasn't expecting this line, it still gets me.

[@deecollinssuperitandficays863]

Wait. Gwen said " Don't Cry?" I didn't notice that the last times I watched the movie.

[@saibotshawdow5090]

@@deecollinssuperitandficays863what?

[@IronFred]

​@@deecollinssuperitandficays863its from arcane if im not tripping.

[@J1ntu]

​@@IronFredyeah it's a line Silco had at the end of episode 9

[@avery-gee]

Why schnee gotta hit me with that feels train outta the blue like that TvT

[@winstermagic7886]

Possible third interpretation of the “in every other universe” line: gwen doesn’t say “in every universe” she says “every other” one. Small distinction, but it could imply that this is the “one universe” that is the exception, where they can fall in love without consequences. But all the “every other” universes are scaring gwen so much she doesnt want to act on the possibility. Something I wanted to point out that could be interesting

[@theluigifan1]

Very astute observation!

[@Sootielove]

I love connecting that line to her being scared of her dad dying as chief of the police. Gwen seems to withdraw from circumstances that might hurt her, like how she hadn't seen her dad the whole time she was with the spider society. Similarly, she's scared of being with Miles because she knows there's a chance it'll end up hurting them. At the end of the film she learns to take her own leap of faith to both reconcile with her dad, and then maybe allowing herself to love Miles despite the fear

[@hotbiohazard]

She is absolutely terrified of the possible consequences and I think that it's clouding her judgment. She tells miles that when Gwen Stacy falls for Spiderman it doesn't end well. But that's not necessarily true. When Gwen Stacy falls for Peter Parker, it doesn't end well. I can understand her blanket judgment because most spider men are Peter Parker. Miles is right because with the multiverses, there will always be a first time. No same event will ever occur because they all have to differ even in some miniscule way otherwise it would just be the same universe. Which is also why the Canon is bullshit but we aren't here for that lol.

[@pinkishhaven5158]

eyo I hope that universe that worse includes the one of Meows Morales and Spiderguin cuz they're hella cute

[@sonlecao6128]

Both Gwen's and Miles' character arc continue to develop in their own way: Miles will never let anyone decide who he will be, and Gwen stops being the protector of the people she loves. According to the analysis, Gwen now takes Miles as a role model and begins to enter stage 3 - synthesizing responsibility and love, which means she can both fulfill her duty as a spiderman and 'loves' people she loves the most, so it could be possible that the heartbreaking nature of Miles and Gwen can be changed (which the whole movie is about defining fate). It would be wonderful and perfect if they end up together, and I'm very curious to see how the writers will handle that :)

[@Treck533]

Miles’s entire character arc is not adhering to fate or the canon, the line “in every other universe Gwen falls for Spiderman and it doesn’t end well” is going to be proven wrong. For the trilogy to work thematically Miles and Gwen have to get together.

[@ChibiMalzahar]

hopefully this means we see gwen with a goofy crush on miles being cool the next movie shit like that always cracks me up

[@lulnara5128]

@@Treck533Not necessarily bc Gwen IS her own “Spider-Man”, so it could be about self love and her feeling self worthy of love in stage 3, it doesn’t stop them from getting together so I still ship it thought lol

[@marcosdheleno]

i have always said this, the first and half of this second movie is all about miles pursuing gwen, putting her as his idol, the perfect role model someone he doesnt just want to be with, but someone he strives to be. but, as we(and he) sees that she isnt perfect, that she doesnt hold all the answers, and that he needs to let go of his admiration to save those around him, its the moment the movie inverts the romance. it then goes to gwen as the one learning and pursuing miles, she is the one who needs to grow and prove to him that she is worthy of his love. which is why, while i would love for them to be together, the story works best as it is right now, letting both come to a middle ground in the third movie, with neither being a trophy to be earned for the other, but as equals standing side by side.

[@Treck533]

@@lulnara5128No because when she says “falls for Spiderman” she means falls for Miles

[@lauroralei]

I honestly think the true moment is her leaning in to his shoulder. The entire weight of her Spider-burden is in that, and a little tiny moment of letting it go. Miles is the only person Gwen does that with. Regardless of whatever romantic implications overlay it, the true depth of their connection is in that shoulder lean and it's all the more potent for its restrained subtlety

[@KC_Smooth]

Facts! All Gwen's worries about Spider Society and her mission went out the window at that moment. Her heart wanted to believe Miles' "there's a first time for everything" line was true even if only for a moment.

[@shaynem7331]

Heck, you could even say it was a "shoulder touch."

[@michelebozza1591]

I was thinking about the leaning and realized that is different: they are upside down, leaning is not a relaxing motion, it's an active one. Don't know if the writers went that deep but it could be different than a normal "lean"

[@lupin2589]

Nailed it 100%

[@emilyrln]

@@michelebozza1591ooh, that's actually a really interesting point! She's fighting against gravity to lean towards him 🥰

[@RenzyTheGreat]

I think you greatly underestimate Miles’ emotional maturity. Miles never went through a “stage 1” of his powers. The very moment he gets his powers he gets tasked with the promise of stopping Kingpin and saving the Multiverse right before he watches Peter die. He doesn’t get a fun montage of him enjoying his new abilities, even during the beginning of ATSV when he’s finally on his own he is stressed trying to balance his life but he’s still hopeful and confident because he’s Spider-Man. In some ways Miles is actually more mature than Gwen, especially when it comes to their feelings for each other. Everyone knows they’re down bad for each other but Miles is more open with his feeling while Gwen is more reserved. She sees obstacles in their way of ever getting together and she just excepts that it’ll never be but Miles is willing to push through those barriers. That’s why she’s so smitten with him, in a dark and lonely world he is the biggest light shining.

[@schnee1]

Good take, I hear that

[@marcosdheleno]

@@schnee1 i agree with him, to me, miles started at stage 2. from the moment he got his powers until the end of the first movie, he was forced to face the responsibility of being spiderman. if he didnt, peter b would have to sacrifice himself, miles literaly tells the other spiderpeople that its his responsibility, he is the one who has to do it.

[@asahihanada9381]

EXACTLY. I hate the fact that everyone underestimates miles because of his personality. He is very mature and also responsible.

[@KC_Smooth]

I agree 💯

[@Christian-zt9uq]

And now the biggest light shining no longer trusts anyone, is assumed in the dark, and locked in hell itself A.K.A Earth-42 It seems even poetic in a tragic sense.

[@szymonrogowski6393]

I love how the songs in this movie tell us more about Miles, Gwen and their relationship. "Calling" is a song about declaration of love and apology letter from Gwen to Miles in one. "Self-Love" is a song about Gwen's struggles. "Hummingbird" is a song about Miles' love for Gwen. This melancholic vibe they leave in me makes me even more involved in the story of these characters.

[@unrulycrow6299]

Omg the whole sequence with Self-Love still haunts me almost two months later. It's such a beautiful executed and heart-breaking sequence. And the tone of the music matches the more melancholic watercolour palette of Gwen's world, her sad blues and greens tones. Everytime I saw it at the cinema, I was just blown away by how delicately everything was being depicted.

[@bw4348]

Perfect synergy between the movie and soundtrack

[@bw4348]

@@unrulycrow6299 How many times did you see the movie in the cinema?

[@koolkittykat04]

I heard someone say Self Love is kinda like Gwen’s letter to her Peter, and I can see that. (“Self love, he don’t love himself tryin’ to love me. Cuff me, told the truth to him, he don’t trust me.”) Metro Boomin really popped off with their album for this movie.

[@Mark-ln2zn]

@@koolkittykat04tbh I don’t get what those lyrics are trying to say

[@danieldetroit7529]

I know I'm not the only one who died inside every time he showed the clip of Gwen opening Miles’s collectible packaging🤣

[@donblack6234]

Miles whole character is about changing fate and being himself. The location where they're talking about their feelings has so much meaning. Gwen shooting her webs when she upside down shows she knows about the Gwen who died by falling in a clocktower. At the end of the film she realized "There's a first time for everything" is true and Miles can make anything possible. Even the song "Calling" shows Gwen deeply in love with Miles in Across.

[@EbonySerpent999]

That's a great analysis, man. Thanks for that.

[@NoirRaven]

My only problem is that there hasn't been enough time between them for there to _be_ a relationship. At the end of the first movie, it's implied Gwen sees him on the regular (somehow) but they more or less retcon that in this film, having her appear by chance rather than by choice, but the movie acts like the first one's implication was still canon; (actual canon, not the canon event BS.) I'm also bothered that Gwen is forced to like Miles back even though the relationship was completely one sided in the first movie. That ended with best friend energy but now that it's been a few years, they're both in love for no reason? If anything dooms this relationship (and it already kind of has) it's how little they know each other.

[@donblack6234]

​@@NoirRaven THAT'S WHY ITS SO AWESOME!! Every Spider-Man film is a mystery love story with a few fighting scenes. The love story between Miles and Gwen is such a mystery! Like why does Gwen spidey sense react to Miles so strongly? Does Gwen spidey sense remember the love for Miles and her memory don't? Why do they have a habit of thinking of each from only meeting for 2 days? also It's obvious that Gwen spied on Miles through her dimension watch thing by Hobie literally snitching on her by giving Miles tips on his Venom blast. We won't really know until the third movie comes out but It's looking like Spot changed the future.

[@Jonathan_Collins]

I honestly don’t understand the hate towards Gwen, it feels like the people who are hating on her watched a different movie for something. Like what’s this whole thing about Gwen becoming a backstabber and a liar to Miles come from? If they actually used they’re eyeballs and ears she does say at the start of the movie that she regrets hurting a friend aka being Miles and she wants to fix it by saving him that’s why she starts her own squad. The whole thing about her keeping the canon events and anomaly a secret to Miles is understandable. She loves and misses Miles like a lot, if she were to actually tell Miles soon as she sees him again he would’ve been heartbroken. Plus Miguel was watching (With the scene with Miguel using computers, with Gwen and Miles having a conversation at the party on one of the screens), and if she were to tell Miles, Miguel would’ve known, been pissed off, and kicked her out of the spider society, and homeless. And are we gonna act with the scenes with her and Miles bonding never existed? Gwen seeing his drawing, Gwen and Miles web slinging, Gwen and Mikes chatting in the upside down roof scene and party, it’s obvious they love each other. Gwen making that mistake by hurting Miles feelings is something she’s aware of and something she’ll fix. And isn’t the whole thing about being a spider hero struggling, making mistakes, yet at the end of the day figuring out a way to fix or accomplish something? Like the other Peter variants? What makes her so different? Also the people who are hyping up spider byte, saying she’s unironically a better love interest for Miles because to spite Gwen is crazy.

[@SwordTune]

I don't know anyone hating on Gwen, so don't worry about it.

[@Dreachon]

I think it is more because these haters only see things in black & white; it's either one thing or the opposite of it. In doing so they fail utterly at understanding that this movie is pretty much grey, even Miguel is doing some wrong things can't really be faulted as he is doing them for the right reasons, it makes him a great antagonist. And really, we need the third movie to see where this will all go

[@sapphiredragon7234]

All of what you said

[@Arander92]

“I think it is more because these haters only see things in black & white” This is more true and LITERAL than you realize

[@foop145]

I mean, I completely get it. Miguel is very clearly extremely unhealthy and unhinged, but Gwen joins up with him anyway. She even tries to justify the bullshit he feeds everyone, which results in so much tragedy and loss for so many people. She basically tells Miles that he needs to let his dad die for the greater good, which is SUPER bullshit. She's started to view human lives as expendable. She doesn't just betray Miles there, she betrays everything spider people have ever stood for, and everything she's stood for. "Now I save everyone else" rings hollow when you're intentionally trying to prevent people from saving others. This is a shallow reading of the character, but it's not hard to see why people would struggle to see past her betrayal. Most people would say that telling your best friend that their dad needs to die makes you a bad person, and call it there. To many, trying to understand the motivations behind evil actions is the same thing as justifying those actions. It's kinda like how if you fuck up in life, and you try to explain why you did what you did when you're apologizing, you're gonna get yelled at for making excuses. Even if you take full responsibility for your actions, and you just want to connect with the other person, most of the time, they won't want to hear it. They want to hear "I fucked up when I did XYZ, it was wrong, I'm sorry, and I won't do it again," full stop. What was going on in your mind or in your life is basically irrelevant to most people unless they really really care about you and want to make an effort to understand you. It's the same thing with Gwen; she fucked up, no excuses.

[@sldarwin5615]

if the next spiderverse movie manages to keep up with the level of the previous two movies, it is easily the best spiderman, and the best cbm trilogy ever made

[@MrStatement]

Honestly if the next movie sticks the landing the spiderverse trilogy will easily be one of the best MOVIE trilogies of all time imo.

[@Celeste_779]

this is why I'm so pushy about giving the movie more time in production. I don't care if it comes out in a year, 2 years, or even 5 years from now, I just don't want a shitty rushed movie PLEASE.

[@MrStatement]

@@Celeste_779 I don't know what I'd do if they followed up these two masterpieces with something that doesn't stick the landing.

[@bucketspree4952]

@@Celeste_779 it was already pushed back from the release it was slated for, and the creators have stated they will take the time they need to make a product they can be proud of, so I don't think you have to worry about that

[@officiallemmon]

I think the first film was 10/10, the second was 12/10 and so by the law of exponential growth, the third should be 14/10.

[@DarkEclipce]

The world literally the world on their shoulders, that scene was the best. People are constantly forgetting that Gwen is still a kid, even if a bit older than Miles. She was just a kid when her life fell apart and none of it was fair but she never stopped trying to do the right thing.

[@unrulycrow6299]

Omg YES all of the critics regarding her supposed betrayal and all really rub me the wrong way because she's like 16/17? She's a teen, she's had to escape because her father literally held her at gun point when she revealed her identity to him, it's heavily implied she lives with Hobie since then (Hobie more like Homie, he's truly an upstanding citizen and the best Older Brother figure someone could have), while handling Spider duties like a grown up instead of idk, going to school and keeping a minimal sense of normalcy? This is 100% on point to qualify her of kid who grew up too fast, it's exactly what she is and she has to navigate a highly complex situation with little support. We see it because her initial reaction to Miguel is jokey and all, but once we see them interact again, she's almost at the salute and remains serious. What else was she supposed to do, she was already trying her best to balance the very large and busy plate she's been bearing for about a year.

[@terence7025]

Exactly! And that doesn't even touch on her own Captain Cannon event looming in her future. That she now knows is coming and freaking out about every bit as much as Miles.

[@MrStatement]

This movie has a lot of incredible lines but I think my favorite is when Gwen says: "We're supposed to be the good guys!" when she is being sent home. The line is my favorite because apart from wanting to stay away from her father the entire reason Gwen wanted to be apart of the Spider Society was because she genuinely wanted to keep everyone safe especially Miles and this is how she could do that, she viewed herself as a good guy. However after seeing how Miguel treated the whole situation with Miles combined with her feelings with Miles made her realize that the Spider Society isn't actually protecting everyone they're just following a man whose fear controls him and that Miles showed her what it really means to be Spiderman to be the good guy. I know that this comment was bit unrelated but where this was a video about Gwen I just wanted to comment about this.

[@jpthompson09]

Might be the best way I've seen Miguel described. He is not a villain, but he is fear let run free, overreach and overreaction personified. He isn't "bad" because of choice, but because of assumptions and his longing to protect others. Granted he eventually goes off the rails...

[@MrStatement]

​@@jpthompson09 Thank you for the compliment! I agree with you as well, Miguel has definitely let himself drown in the fear of repeating his past mistakes to the point that I don't even think he knows what caused the destruction of that one universe he destroyed. Unfortunately for him Miles embodies everything he fears since like him Miles is an anomaly. Personally one of my favorite aspects about Miguel in the movie has to be that progressively throughout the train chase/battle between him and Miles Miguel completely breaks down into this irrational angry mess.

[@EH-vzzy]

Oh I totally like this take. I think so many viewers have skimmed over that the spider people *genuinely* believe the traumatic cannon events must happen otherwise the fabric of space and time will collapse in on itself (so that person dies anyway right?). Whereas your take explains that ringleader, Miguel, is lead and leading by fear, and because of that pain probably isn't thinking right

[@michelebozza1591]

@@EH-vzzy yeah, Miguel at this moment is a fallen hero, he lost hope and accepted a dark fate as inevitable. It might be realistic but not for heroes bigger than life as Spiderman

[@SomethingWellesian]

Just saw the film for a third time round. Couple points around 4:44 (which you may get to later in the video, sorry for commenting from the hip): • I love Gwen’s face after she says Miles had a growth spurt-she instantly cringes, knowing what a patronising and awkward thing it was to say • She absolutely does go to her universe’s version of Miles’ school-her drum kit at the start of the film says (under The Mary Janes) “Property of Visions Academy”.

[@marcosdheleno]

to me, its not a patronising thing at all. it felt far more like she was trying to move away from their hug. and said the first thing that came to her mind. it was literaly her "play dumb, not that dumb" moment.

[@sarcasticat6979]

@@marcosdheleno Yeah it was definitely her being like "Oh I revealed too much with that hug, time to play it reaaaally casual" and then it just comes out awkward because she's mid-panicked-backtracking and also an awkward teenager who literally has no friends and is likely rusty with her social skills

[@marcosdheleno]

@@sarcasticat6979 and also because she spent more than a year thinking about him nonstop.

[@jessicar3291]

Mr Stacy is also wearing the Visions Academy longsleeve in the beginning

[@SomethingWellesian]

@@jessicar3291Yup, that’s pointed out in the video.

[@kjd-s5b]

The problem with Gwen is that while she tries to prioritize responsibility over love, her actions frequently contradict her motives. Because she keeps suppressing her feelings, she ended up imploding. It's been said by the creators that Gwen will have a self-reflecting moment with her other variants in Beyond that will greatly impact her relationship with Miles. I suspect that variant that will particularly affect her arc will be the Gwen of Earth 8, the one who is actually married to Miles.

[@metacitizend1095]

Yeah with everything they hinted it seems they'll adapt that comic story and it will feel more organic. Thing is Beyond will have to be like three hours long to give somewhat of a fullfilling ending tbh. So much to tell still.

[@kjd-s5b]

@@metacitizend1095 That, plus the indefinite delay will all be worth it.

[@kjd-s5b]

@@metacitizend1095 The Sitting in a Tree comic arc had a great premise with poor execution.

[@v.v365]

In the course of this I realized Peter taking the lizard serum was his way of evolving to that adult protector role full of trauma, which is why when Gwen reaches that stage for herself she’s so desperate to protect and shelter Miles from reaching that stage, treating him like he’s still a kid

[@sapphiredragon7234]

I have watched a LOT of Spiderman Spiderverse critiques and this is by far the most comprehensive one I've seen. Well done.

[@vic8695]

I might have an theory about that last line Peter said before drawing his last breath. His final words "Everything is going to be ok" that is a real sad one: he was accepting his own death over considering that nobody would care anyway and won't cause any sort of grief. Him constantly bullied made him believe it won't matter if he dies, as nobody will care. All those years of bullying made him break down, have low self esteem and see himself as useless, fueling a sense of depression. Gwen standing up to protect him, despite being a noble thing without any doubt and something friends do, it further humiliated him in that context. High school life can be ruthless sometimes. It also fueled his desperate act to become like her, in his mind it was his last chance to escape his torment and also not to be weak anymore. It was clear it backfired as he lost control the second he took the serum and morphed into that creature. In the aftermath after he reverted to his old form and was dying, he wanted to see her face one last time, but Gwen's shock and her assumption that he will live stopped him from seeing her face, still clinging to the idea o keeping her identity hidden. This act was also percieved by him in that moment as another confirmation that even Gwen won't be affected after he dies. He already saw himself as a failure after his last attempt failed in such a horrible way, added with this, he accepted his death, assuming nobody will even notice him being gone. Witch is why that line makes sense. In translates into "Everything will resume to normal after i die, i don't matter that much, you will move on from this quickly." But, like many who suffer from depression and despair, he was wrong. May and Ben were surely devastated, George CLEARLY was (seeing his corpse and even checking for a pulse hit him hard. Even himself, a veteran captain who likely saw many dead bodies, this hit too close to home), and the one who felt the most pain was Gwen herself, especially since deep inside, she clearly knows she killed him (witch she actually did in all terms, but gloss over her criminal liability for a moment). She cared for him as her best friend (probably her only one at that time) and since she was a teen in probably her 15's, it scarred her emotionally (that scene where she was crying while still hugging him after he died and also her breakdown after she fled and hid from her dad when he caught her at the scene). You could see how much she was grieving while still holding her friend's body before being startled by her dad's arrival. Even seeing him check up Peter's dead corpse made her break down again where she hid, you could see she was hyperventilating and about to have a complete breakdown. It was a second confirmation that he is dead and she knew she killed him. is one thing you see him dying but the doubling down by George when he checked for signs of life, a pulse, and getting the confirmation he is dead hit again hard for her.

[@MrStatement]

Holy shit this makes so much sense. This movie man when I think it can't get any better or pull at my heart strings any more than it already has it does both of those things.

[@vic8695]

@@MrStatement makes sense because it also binds with the entire scene, the entire backstory. - the "Gwen, it's ok, if listened closely, is the same tone someone says when reaching his snapping point. I doubt that was the only incident, that bullying surely was going on and on for years. Gwen's flaw of being not such a good communicator (as the author of the clip said in a previous video), along with her focused on being angry on Ned made her have the moment of tunnel vision and didn't hear his tone. That should have been an instant red alert to her. She could have then talked him down and prevented him from making the serum, or, silently follow him and see that he created it and stop him from taking it, preventing the point of no return for him. - his act wasn't out of desire for revenge, or evil as some speculate. Him being inspired by his friend, his body language that showed initial hesitancy and also some sort of fear of the unknown and his constant bullying and humiliation showed despair, not malice or spite. It was in a way his last attempt to stop being weak and useless. And it backfired. - Others point at him being evil because he targeted Ned when he burst through the floor. If he was in control, then why attacking Gwen, since he knew she was Spider Woman? If he was in control, he would have NEVER tried to harm her. Not even when she tried to web him in the initial move (one that was no use since she did it wrong by holding the webs herself instead of tying them to a solid anchor). It showed he had no control at all. Plus, his lizard form was based on a particular species that attacks humans with ease: the komodo dragon. That is why those last words make sense in this much more saddening context: he saw he failed, he probably remembered he lost control and attacked her, he percieved her gesture of not letting him see her face one last time as a final proof not even her dosen't care (in reality she was in shock over the revelation he knew her identity and truly thought he will survive, but she was wrong. Her kick was way too strong and brought the entire place on him, even in lizard more it proved fatal). So he accepted his death and truly thought he dosen't matter at all and everything will resume to normal after he dies.

[@ozzy2here210]

I think this brings up some good points. I see it as a final expression of his trust in Gwen. He obviously sees her as more important and “special” than him. He believes in Gwen and knows deep down she’s the hero of the story, not him. That’s one of the reasons he able to accept his death as you say. There’s certainly a lot of speculation work about the depression and the specifics, but the end result is clear all the same. Peter doesn’t think very highly of himself, evidenced by how he feels the need to take the serum in the first place. Because of his underestimation of himself and how his death will impact her and all his loved ones, and possibly his overestimation of Gwen, he believes that Gwen can bounce back from this. And frankly, this could all be slightly over exaggerated. His self esteem issues may lead him to accept his death quicker, but the line itself may have nothing to do with his self esteem. It could simply be a final message of love and trust for Gwen. He believes in her. He sees her as a strong person who will overcome the struggles that come with his death.

[@vic8695]

@@ozzy2here210 you got a good point, and it actually adds to my theory. Dunno about speculation, but he showed signs and sympthoms of severe state of both depression and despair. And the environment and context that he was over the years do consolidate this theory. Gwen if she weren't having "tunnel vision" and focused on fuming over his bully or focusing her effort on hiding her identity to everyone (futile in the end since Peter already put 2+2 together, he knew her better than she knew him), she would have seen the sings he was in despair and he finally snapped and could have prevented this mistake (another reason why she blames herself and feels regret, apart from killing him- deep inside, she knew she could have done more and didn't). But in the end, she didn't and it went quite fast + her being inexperienced and a moment of negligence on her side, she caused an accident that made the room fall on him and kill him. Hence also her panic when she saw Miles covered in rubble, for her it was a PTSD moment because she flashed back to how Peter died. Back a step, your point of him seeing himself as not that important, hence no problem if he dies is completing my theory. Another reason he thinks nobody will care, even Gwen is her quick decision in her stare of shock over the revelation that he knew she was Spider Woman and stopped him from seeing her face. She still clung to her effort to keep herself hidden and thought he will live, but for him it was a sign that even Gwen dosen't care, so his last words can sound also like your point of "It's ok, you will bounce back in an instant", but also as "You will get over. It's ok if i die, I don't matter enough to be missed." Putting it like this, is quite saddening. He saw himself as insignificant and was able to mask it when with Gwen, George and his family, but like all those who suffer from despair and severe depression, they tend to slip. They always slip and some might detect the problem. When he was dying he saw that experiment that backfired on him as his last failure, thus he percieved himself as not worth of living. Also probably due to his guilt after remembering he attacked Gwen when he lost control, something i am sure he would have NEVER done if he'd had any sort of control over that lizard shape :(

[@gangelika]

Omg, it makes so much sense:o

[@Shinigami88X1]

One more thing: When Gwen says "look at you" it wasn't condescending. It was like "you've grown since I saw you". Which would make "you're amazing" means so much

[@crazydragy4233]

It's condescending Because it's identical to how parents treat their children. It's condescending because Miles isn't treated equally, at least to him anyway

[@skyetan86]

She didn't mean it to be condescending but it can be taken as condescending by Miles or the audience. I think you're right but it doesn't mean others won't feel that way.

[@AllUpOns]

Condescension usually implies a negative intent, but it doesn't have to. I think you're right that she means it as a straightforward acknowledgement that he's grown up. But it's still condescension. This line isn't something that a peer usually says to you, even if they haven't seen you for a while. It's what your uncle or older cousin says. And even if they're being totally positive and not teasing, it still makes it clear that you're only just now breaking into adulthood where maybe you'll be peers.

[@Maddie-dw2wq]

She says “look at you” like she’s impressed with how far he’s come. It’s not meant to sound condescending. She’s genuinely proud of him, not talking down to him. She hadn’t seen him in a while and he had a rocky start so she wanted to see how he’s grown since she last saw him. She’s being playful too. It’s like if your girlfriend taught you how to cook and you start out bad but then when you get good at it she’s like “ look at you. You’re getting it” not in a condescending way, but a playful, “I’m proud of you” way. He even says “look at me” in the same way. So he’s not taking offense.

[@mosasa1307]

@@Maddie-dw2wq it can still be interpreted as condescending.... Reason being is that she has this mental image of him being lesser, in other words still a rookie which in truth he is considering the fact that she last saw him when he first got his abilities. He's since then improved, but she wasn't there to see it, so when she sees it that mental image of him has improved and that's what she comments on, she doesn't mean it in a bad way, but it absolutely can be interpreted negatively. Also, other points in the movie her and Peter think lesser of Miles, stating things like " I don't think he has a plan" (when he's escaping the spider society) or, "I don't think he knows what he's doing" and queue like before, he surprises them. All in all it is very belittling, at least IMO that's how I see it but its up to miles how he interprets it.

[@prophetisaiah08]

This is the difference between ok character writing and great character writing: emotions are part of the human experience, but *people are not their emotions.*

[@MrStatement]

I love how initially you were basically trashing the "Everything is going to be okay." line but after looking at the subtleties and patterns that the movie gives the viewer you were able to not only find reasoning for that line's existence but also found out how potent it is. It just goes to show that no matter how out of place a line could be on the surface, fantastic writing can give those lines such deep and powerful meaning to a story that in reality that out of place line can fit perfectly in place. Beyond the Spiderverse can't come soon enough!

[@xXGhostZeroXx1]

Rewatching Into the Spider-verse I noticed something too. Right before Peter dies he basically says the same thing to Miles. “Everything is going to be ok.” And despite all the bad things that happen to Miles, he not only takes his uncles advice to keep moving forward, but that same advice Gwen got too. Things can turn out okay despite the bad, you just have to keep moving forward.

[@NotAWhaleAtAll]

Opens up a whole new perspective on Self-Love song when you think about it

[@pokemon18ish]

Miles is Gwen's light in her story. The one thing she's fighting so hard to make sure never goes out. The light in the darkness. That says something. She has an entire society of spider people in her life. But that's not enough cause it still can't erase the fact she doesn't fill whole or only half of her is present. Miles is that other half. She couldn't see the hope right in front of her. Suffocating from everyone trying to control her. Does she want to give up on her love for Miles? No, she doesn't. But for now, Gwen can't be Gwen Stacy. She has to be a spider-woman. That love is pure and genuine. Honestly, that love saved her. None of this is any reason to hate her. She was someone who needed to realize that she could be happy. That she didn't have to run away from love. Cause if she doesn't go for it, I think she'll regret it.

[@FrffyVsBoredom]

That observation with how Gwen sees her mentor as someone with both “Love & Responsibility” blew my mind. The “I can do both” line throughout the movie took on a new meaning for me. Love this video

[@surrealpsalms]

This dynamic between Miles & Gwen literally brings me to tears sometimes. I wish for the absolute best outcome for these two.

[@sweetgreenlettuce]

Thank goodness for Schnee overthinking things

[@unrulycrow6299]

Miguel's behaviour screams of generational trauma in a way, with him being an older and more jaded Spiderman. The hardest part for him is that it was self-inflicted, he made a reckless decision based on the fact that he felt his life was shit (your stage 2, most likely) and he was envious of this alternate self who was having a normal life. His narrative arc is imo a solid example of knowledge being abused and coming back to bite your ass, because him playing house was, in a way, an illusion, a way for him to escape his role imo, and well. The illusion broke down in the most traumatic manner. And now we have the Spider Society, full to the brim of people with similar trauma. And while it may feel reassuring to see people who went through the same shit, keeping everybody at the stage 2 because he himself can't move on is not very cash money. So of course, seeing a teen verbally flip him off and refusing to stay at the same stage with him immediately triggers him and leads to his mental breakdown at the climax of the train chase - because Miguel was having a mental breakdown there, you can't convince me otherwise. He saddled himself with so much responsibilities while bearing his own intense guilt on his own, and the fact that he emphasises the "I", like. Man, he sounds so damn lonely. As a sidenote, Miguel has red eyes but I am under the impression the video of his alternative daughter he keeps looking at/keeps as an open tab on the side when working is of his alternate self, because he seems to have brown eyes in this video - doesn't match his actual eye colour, and it'd also make the level of guilt even more horrific because he's totally stuck on something definitely lost to him, because of him. EDIT: went back to a full sample of that scene and YES the videos he's watching on repeat are from Alternate Miguel and his daughter 💀 Honestly, I just love Miguel. He's an amazing example of how to write trauma, while already having subtle hints at the kindness deeply buried: when he says Spiderverse sounds stupid and pulls his own jargon, he immediately humbles himself and acknowledges that it also sounds stupid (while Miles gives him an amused smile), his face when he's trying to convince Miles shows genuine worry and he even physically tries to connect with him by touching his shoulder. Alas, Miguel is not the greatest at communication in general (we can see it in his interactions with Jess and Lyla during the Guggenheim fight), and him pulling the "you're just a kid" at a teen is not something I'd qualify as a smart move. It's made worse by his breakdown, that translates into full blown rage because it seems like the easiest way for him to express himself at this point in his life (and BOI is it something I understand, I have the same issue IRL and this is 100% not healthy). Hopefully in BTSV, we can see some form of healing for Miguel, even though he has quite the hard pill to swallow specifically because of the magnitude of what he's caused. I just want that man to feel better and maybe see a therapist. He badly needs a therapist.

[@theluigifan1]

And him being older and jaded feels more like an extreme of what Peter B. was like in the first movie. Albeit far more deadpan and no-nonsense. Peter B. at least has a dry sense of humor that shone through in his early interactions with Miles.

[@ttq3661]

Great analysis. We see that the average responsibility of being Spider-Man is so enormous that most get crushed by it soon after they acquire their powers and many never found a way to recover from that. Otherwise Miguel’s Canon theory wouldn’t have been so popular. Miles is the outlier both in that he refuses to conform to the Canon theory, but also mainly because he’s an anomaly and the usual order of events didn’t happen to him, he was lucky to achieve empowerment during a very unique occurrence (during a multiverse crisis with other parallel spiders with him) and as a result he managed to do it rapidly, and was immediately left alone after the job’s done. What would’ve catapulted him to stage two, we now know as his father’s death, is again revealed before it even happened (again he got the special treatment), he’s now informed and actionable while others in their respective development would’ve never seen it coming. In a sense, there’s nothing special about Miles the person, everything ‘inspiring’ about him exists because of his exceptional luck. He can ‘do his own thing’ because circumstances allowed him to dodge one bullet after another, he got the best conditioning, best training, best coaches, best luck, and saw every punch telegraphed right in front of him, while others were already knocked out cold before they even saw the punch. Of course then he has a lot more freedom of action, and appears more ‘brave’ and ‘determined’ than all the normal Spiders, it is unfair to shit on the likes of Miguel and Gwen, who stood in the ring without any favors and the next thing they remember is waking up from a knockout with CTE and PTSD, like every other normal Spider, and the rest of their lives they try, in their respective ways, to recover from this loss. In the end, some people are just luckier than others, which in a particular stage in life, or perhaps their whole lives they trail your best attempts to get back up without even trying, and that cause and effect is an unbroken law as long as nothing exceeds the speed of light. Determinism wins again.

[@JohnSmith-pm3ew]

​@@ttq3661What makes Miles inspiring is that, despite being a kid and initially running, then trying to run, then actually running from responsibility (and the Prowler), he eventually does own up to what he has to do, and he throws himself wholeheartedly into it. And not only That, and despite the real and sometimes extreme pressures he was under to step out of the way and let other spider people save the day, then to not get involved in the multiverse, then to not change Canon events, he learns and then steadfastly refuses to be anything but himself. He has a loving family, even if it is partially ripped away from him, but he-in some fashion over the course of the movie-learns to recognize what that love really is and looks like, and how it can empower him. Despite how distant his parents can feel for him; he nonetheless chooses to recognize it, rather than falling victim to anger or resentment towards them. Which, granted, is a lot easier to do since they aren't abusive. Miles is inspirational because of the choices and decisions he makes, not the outcomes he causes. That is what makes his fight scene with Miguel feel so earned.

[@JohnSmith-pm3ew]

​@@ttq3661And I wanted to follow-up by exemplifying the choices others made. Gwen chose her fear and anxiety in withholding information from Miles, which is understandable for the reasons you laid out. Miguel chose hatred in trying to rigidly control the universe after the death of his family, for understandable reasons. Peter B. Parker chose apathy and ridicule towards Miles after experiencing the pain and disillusionment of slowly going from stage 1 to stage 2 (god he's such a poster child for millennials). And then he chose compassion and love again after seeing it was possible to be that way from Miles. Which is inspirational, cause he really could have gone back to his old ways and nobody would have blamed him. Even Jeff and Río and Aaron get notable choices. Jeff and Aaron when they were younger possibly grew up rough, and each made the same choice in different ways to do better and provide for the next generation. Aaron by cleaning himself up and living a safer life while maintaining who he was, and Jeff by becoming a pillar of the community and someone dependable for his son. And later in the movie, both Jeff and Río then choose to, even as they discipline their son, go beyond what they were probably taught and try to also see who their son really is at the same time. All of these are choices. And that is what is inspiring.

[@ttq3661]

@@JohnSmith-pm3ew None of them chose anything, my friend. Their circumstances dictated their response, and Miles had what most Spider people wouldn't dream of in a million years. He is free because he is positioned so that he can afford to be. None of these other characters really had much of a choice. Free will is an illusion.

[@marcosdheleno]

there's another possibility for miles, its not that he skipped the responsability stage, but that he understood it better, and didnt let it drag him down, spending just enough time in it. remember, he DID go through that responsability in the first movie, he sacrificed himself fighting kingpin alone, the same kingpin who killed the more capable and experienced peter. and he also avoided pursuing his romance with gwen by the end, because he understood the seriousness of the situation. even though he would want nothing more than to kiss her(and if you notice in the intro of across, she also wanted that), he knew that SHE was not at a place to reciprocate his feelings, so he took the responsible thing and gave her back the ability to make friends again. no pressure, just a solid, "friends?" which disarms her(again, she was actually thinking of kissing him at that moment).

[@jadenanjara]

Where in the intro was it shown that it was what she wanted? I might’ve missed that

[@kallmekayla]

@@jadenanjaraI know I’m like 3 weeks late but in the intro when she’s playing the drums, there is a flashback from when she had jumped into the collider and said goodbye to Miles in Into The Spider Verse, if you pause at the right moment you can see that she had puckered her lips as she was falling as if she was imagining herself kissing him, which is a really sweet detail!

[@mikailsaga]

I really liked this theory

[@machariawanjagi5353]

This is just one of those movies where it gets better and better the more you watch it and analyze it

[@cthulhu1452]

I think some people overanalyze it

[@gjk-arts5855]

this video has changed EVERYTHING about how I see gwen, miles, peter, and every spider person. holy crap. also miles is SO AWESOME for just skipping step 2 entirely and jumping straight into step 3 and going farther than EVERYONE else like LOOK AT HIM GO!!!! I can't wait for beyond the spiderverse oh my god

[@marcosdheleno]

i said this before but i dont think he "skiped" any step. remember the first movie, he went full on responsability, hell, that's his whole theme, if anything he INVERTED them, he started at the responsability stage, and went on to the empower stage afterwards. the whole of into the spiderverse is him coming to therms with his responsability, he WANTS to save everyone, and that drags him down, he is unable to do it properly until he accepts himself. even by the end, not only does he do send the other spidermen away, knowing he has to face kingpin(who has killed a much more experienced and capable spiderman before) but he also doesnt pursue gwen romantically, even though he wants to, because he knows she isnt ready, nor she is able to reciprocate his feelings as she is bound to leave to her own world. he had the responsability phase, it just happened first.

[@TipoIrritable]

He ain’t going further than Peter

[@claricesilva2700]

One thing i love about this movie(well, one of the million things cause this movie is perfect in my opinion) is how even though they let their romantic relationship implicit or one-sided(depending on how you see it) their relationship as a whole, their friendship, their bond, is literary what moves this movie along and what the movie is about. And if you doubt about that, just listen to the music that always plays when they are together and also the songs just about each one of them, sure you have a lot of themes, including family, something very important to Miles, for example, but Gwen is always present in Miles motifs and vice versa. The songs they chose, their lyrics, they are INCREDIBLE. They say everything they are not saying on screen, music is so important to their characters cause it's like their most secret feelings being exposed(well, Miles's feelings are not that secret) but yeah, they're there. The songs tell their "love story" without making their story a love story, it's actually more romantic and beautiful than making it obvious on the screen, they're the soul of this movie and it's fascinating how when we're watching it for the first time, we don't see that. Everytime Miles and Gwen are together or thinking about each other or doing something remolety related to each other, they are telling that in music language, they add so much to the story...when there is a song playing in the background of this movie...it's saying something about the characters, especially on this movie in regards to these two. To me, the songs are as good as the movie and i will die on that hill.

[@SeseOB2003]

Gwen’s story in ATSV was so engaging, I can’t wait to see her apology to miles in BTSV.

[@jamesturnbull128]

Damn why did this make me a little emotional. This explanation really enhances this scene, or more so draws out what was already there. The weight of this scene is easy to get emotional over

[@yayayayayaya8140]

this whole video just serves to even further empower the emotional significance of the moment where miles sends miguel flying off the train. he is embracing his youthful edge, not letting the world beat him down and is hellbent on proving to the world that just because your spider-man doesnt mean you need all this trauma. and in that moment, gwen sees him as a role model for her, and realizes miles youthful optimism was right, to follow your heart isnt wrong, because when she forgives her dad she saves him from dying as captain. i could talk about this movies script for years.

[@aylinalkan6444]

I love it when Schnee talks about Vi. I mean Gwen.

[@alysonhowatt1368]

Another layer. “In every other universe Gwen Stacey falls for Spider-man… and in every other universe it doesn’t end well.” In Gwen’s universe she *is* Spider-man. She’s essentially saying that loving *herself* isn’t likely to end well.

[@riccimercado3164]

I think, it’s “sorry, i can’t. it’s just too complicated right now…” - that makes sense…

[@mattetron7105]

How about Gwen not wanting a romantic relationship with miles because she believes that her being with miles is putting miles in danger, as in, she embraces the responsibility of the protector and as such cannot love miles because everyone she loves will die (like her Peter) you touched on that and I thought it was were you were going but just didn't. I believe gwen thinks she is putting miles in danger by getting with him, she would only bring him trouble. With great power comes great responsibility and because of it she has to sacrifice her romantic relationship with miles to "save" him, to not harm miles

[@HeroTheFourth]

Before I start watching. I took the clocktower scene to be not Gwen rejecting Miles, but instead her rejecting herself on his behalf. Because as she says later in the film "it's for your own good".

[@fleet8f8]

If you look at Itsv, when RIPeter is dying he basically tells Miles the exact same thing, as Gwen’s Peter “it’s going to be okay.” Both Peter’s have the same feeling of responsibility even as they’re dying, which kinda shows how similar they are while being from different dimensions and have different experiences.

[@Hello-1243]

The writing idea of ‘where characters are in their development’ affecting how they interact with others and their perspectives and reasons for picking friends and sticking with them is such an interesting concept to me. Especially for mediums such as movies where the characters thoughts aren’t explicitly told to the audience, it’s a great writers tip to just take a moment to consider what is affecting each individual character in one moment, their life experience, their trauma, and how that would affect their feelings and actions towards others. Great video!

[@Shinigami88X1]

You know what got me was how much Gwen really loves Miles although she went about it in a traditional Spiderman fashion. But her body langauge and actions betray her. Because before she went to Miles, that's all she was talking about. She loves him, but feels that she can't. It was protector role that got in the way plus the Canon events that she was fed with. I hope they make up in part three.

[@semillakan6]

Being Spider-Man/Woman comes with a self-sacrificing attitude the whole great power, great responsibility is as much a curse as it is an honor

[@Shinigami88X1]

@@semillakan6 I think the movie is calling that out...oddly I'm reminded of Batman in the DCAU.

[@marcosdheleno]

there's no doubt that she is fully in love with him from the start of the movie. just listen to how she talks just after miles saves pav's inlaw. her delivery and the way she looks at him makes it obvious that she has feelings for him. its just that those feelings arent something she is "allowed" to have.

[@Shinigami88X1]

@@marcosdheleno it funny thought. Like in a way it calls out fridging.

[@hansip87]

Thanks for the deeply thought out analysis. This makes the story much deeper than just a teenage romance, even corrects my own self concept of love and relationships. That being said, i do wish the stage 3 really happens on the third movie both for Miles and Gwen. Can't wait!

[@willfahlman9033]

Miles & Gwen in this movie is really brilliant and if they parlay this into the 3rd movie I’m never going to shut up about them lmao

[@Leeor1214]

Gwen's intention I understand, but the hate on the audience on her is what I don't understand. "Gwen backstab Miles , Gwen bad friend, Gwen liar". You've got to understand she did what she think what's best for her close special friend Miles. But doing the things that we might think what's best for our loved ones without consulting them might result in worse situations, It's what happened between them. As for the Gwenship, It's more of an infatuation since they are teenagers but that's normal. What Peter is to Gwen is the same thing with MIles. She views Miles as his close friend, a friend to confine with, a friend to open up to, a friend to relate with (even though they spent a really short time together in the first movie). And yes after realizing that she might've been straight with him. She felt responsible for the situation that escalated into. She felt responsible for Spot being a multi-versal threat. She felt responsible that she didn't fought and backed up Miles. So this time she's going to take her Leap of Faith.

[@dayday8466]

I disagree with one point u made, like yea I get miles is the first friend Gwen has made since Peter died but there relationship is not the same like Peter in Gwen where childhood friends miles and Gwen clearly are friends but they also clearly like each other more than that.

[@Mark-ln2zn]

Gotta highly disagree with comparing Gwen x Miles with Gwen x peter. Peter was strictly Her best friend and nothing more. With her and Miles the story clearly shows there’s something wayyy more between them than just a best friend thing

[@bw4348]

@@Mark-ln2zn I'm pretty sure Peter was crushing on Gwen. We don't know how she felt about him though

[@dayday8466]

@@bw4348that’s never confirmed

[@bw4348]

@@dayday8466 What counts as confirmation for you? Why does Gwen compare her relationship with Miles to Peter?

[@Gattsu_the_struggler]

This relationship has been set up so perfectly that I genuinely don’t care wether they stay friends with a genuine connection or if something further develops. I love both characters so much that I genuinely don’t mind what happens. I just want them to both be happy

[@nloubriel2336]

Riight? I just saw them as close caring friends, I mean, I sorta see some Miles crush on her But still… ☺️😯

[@dayday8466]

The clock tower scene I’ve seen that part of the script that says “there upside down under light them they are hiding there true feelings” so I do think that scene was romantic it’s just Gwen thinks it can’t happen cuz cannon but miles just full of hope that’s why when he says (there’s a first time for everything) she leans on him it’s the first time she’s approached with that mindset

[@wog2003]

I think the writing is great. The relationship doesn't feel forced and they have good chemistry. Plus, they do a good job showing that the characters aren't perfect, they make mistakes that actually effects them emotionally.

[@jdunlap2072]

Ya I know stupido

[@the_tactician9858]

I'm really torn on whether I want to see them romantically together at the end, because on the one hand, what they have now is really unique, deep and valuable and letting Gwen fall for Miles would undercut that message, but on the other hand, Gwen learning how to love again would make for an amazing story of growth and their current relationship is born from the trauma Gwen is still not fully healed from. So from a literary perspective I want Miles and Gwen to stay friends like this (and also cause making someone who is constantly connected to LGBTQ follow a classic romance plot would cause a civil war I'm not quite ready for) but if this were real, I'd love nothing more than have Gwen accept that she can fall in love with Miles and go for it. The two have great chemistry with or without romance, and if Gwen can overcome her trauma on romance some other way I'm all for it, but this needs to be developed in some way in Beyond the Spider-Verse or the movie will lose out on some very juicy pay-off. Also, what can I say, I'm pretty romantic and I want to see sparks when I sense chemistry like that.

[@starrsmith3810]

@@the_tactician9858honestly I would love to see it become a thing but I would be okay with it if it didn’t.

[@nonuvurbeeznus795]

I haven't watched the whole video but Peter saying: "I just wanted to be special like you" is from the comics.

[@noodlesspicy]

another way that gwen is trying to help miles is when she unboxes the figurine that miles has, she remembers its from her childhood and she realises why the box is not open as miles is trying to keep its monetary worth and gwen is trying to help him live a comfortable life, one that she herself didnt have, she opens the box to show miles that you shouldnt worry about adult things like the monetary worth of an item but should worry about what you should worry about as a child like the fun you get from playing with the figurine instead of using it to gain something like money which just makes you more anxious and forces you to grow up at an accelerated pace.

[@lightfury8827]

Even with the way that "Self Love" plays during that exact montage-- the reasoning surrounding why they chose that song in particular for that scene in particular makes so much sense now in relation to Gwen's character.

[@DarlingSeraa]

I also love that this scene in particular happens while both Miles and Gwen are hanging upside-down, and you can see the inverted environment in the background. It's like the scene itself is telling us that it's not a "typical romantic" type of scene, that it's completely flipping the trope on itself, even if, like you said, Gwen is still interacting with Miles out of love.

[@yuckyballoon]

I'm amazed at how someone can explain simple ideas and scenes in such a genius way. Weeeell, it seemed SIMPLE to me at first, but after watching the video, I realized how wrong I was. This kind of content should be taught in schools and writing courses for storytellers for money (AND I WOULD TOTALLY PAY FOR THAT). But The fact that it's available for free is truly commendable. I have so much respect for you! Can't imagine how much effort you must have put into creating this video (and the others ones which I also really enjoy), but I guess we would only see the tip of the iceberg! xD P.S. For whole my life I hated writing, but you are inspiring me, and showing me some patterns that I am taking a note of, which will totally help me in ordinary life! Also thanks for that! Wish you the best

[@dustyvaughn8819]

You forgot one simple detail. The whole premise of Across and Beyond is Miles racing and defeating destiny.

[@minna8720]

In the Across the spider-verse movie we could observer Miles' self-identity formation. Its oddly nice to see him sticking off from Gwen and "do his own thing".

[@rek8193]

I’m pretty sure they’re setting up Miles and Gwen as real canon. Gwen and Peter relationships are doomed, but Miles has already shown that canon breaks around him. Her Peter-related canon events don’t need to happen with him.

[@LionlordEbonfire]

In comics that already has happened on one Earth so it sort already is. But the movie is setting up that Cannon is not real (IMHO)

[@toogersboogers]

"Well... there's a first time for everything, right?"

[@fallabeaufaebelle]

33:32 What I love about the "romance" in Spiderverse is how it's not just power of love but integrates love and knowledge. It's about power of relationships, how one person can help you see outside yourself and challenge your perceptions of the world. Miles and Gwen influence each other to grow. There's love there and we're not sure what to call it just yet, but it's there. And from that comes knowledge. Miles is able to subvert the ideology Miguel is imposing on the other Spiderpeople and Gwen's dynamic with him flips as you said and helps her make a choice so her arc is complete and she doesn't feel lost anymore.

[@FiePige1]

I would love a video exploring Hobie and the role he played throughout the story; both how he took Gwen in and let her stay in his dimension when she was homeless, and how Miles (and to an extend the audience) thinks Hobie is a romantic "rival" since Gwen seems fond of him and how the movie subverts that expactation. How Hobie is giving Miles advise and supports him when he's standing his ground towards Miguel. Encouraging Miles to do his own thing and not join the spider-society until he knows what that actually means. How Hobie knew they would kick Gwen out of the spider-society and thus went to her dad to make sure she got a watch of her own. How he had probably been planning to leave for a while since he'd been making his own watches behind the scenes. How he's been making those watches by stealing stuff from the spider-society without anyone noticing, but he makes sure Miles sees him taking stuff from the lab as they walk to Miguel.

[@georgenoodles1387]

Hobie is literally such a chad its unreal

[@FiePige1]

@@georgenoodles1387 exactly! I would love to see schnee make an in-depth video of his character I think it would be amazing!

[@waffles9733]

I honestly thought that Peter saying "everything is going to be OK" is just a reoccuring trait for all Peter Parkers We have heard that phrase from both the blonde Peter right before his demise and from Peter B. when he was getting bodied by Liv but i find your analysis very interesting, i love how this movie can have so many layers

[@dgmilloway]

What a beautiful video, and a very nuanced interpretation of character motivations. I do hope that now Gwen has taken her first step into Stsge 3 she will be able to let go and love again. I'll admit, I'd love to see them get together b/c they are both obviously smitten with each other, but you've given me the framework to see how they might remain best friends and it still give a satisfying ending. When next they meet, they will finally be on the same level. I can't wait to see what happens between them!

[@dgmilloway]

@JakeyRavioli I really hope they do get together. I think that makes the most sense. I'm just saying, I could see an emotionally satisfying end where they remain best friends. After all, not falling in love would also break canon, not just the "not dying" part. Again, I don't see it going that way, because they are both obviously in love with each other, so that would make the happiest end, imo. Just not the *only* happy end.

[@benjaminbishop3248]

My man knocks it out of the park again!! I teard up when you got to peters view. How did I not see that. All the props.

[@melanieschaefermeyer6955]

I keep coming back to this amazing video. I didn’t fully understand Spidermen in general before this analysis of each stage each spider person goes through. Well said, schnee. Your videos are beautifully thought out. Thanks for the great content :)

[@Jameslangford-rc6sw]

Dude, this went soooo much deeper than I thought! I mean, I knew there was more behind the awesome relationship and stuff but this is great! Also, holy shit my mind was blown and I had brain food for days after 10 minutes and then I look and I'm like, holy shit there I another 20 minutes. Thanks for the analysis, great shit keep it up

[@borisfenestra]

I feel like that dynamic of Gwen seeing Miles sort of as a child while Miles is trying to break into adulthood is actually perfectly encapsulated in Gwen opening Miles's toy packaging. To Gwen, she sees Miles as a kid with the toys she uses to love, and can't understand why it's in the box, because why wouldn't he play with them? She can't comprehend that for Miles, the toy is a symbol of adulthood, a collector's item of significant value. All that culminates in Gwen opening the box, the misunderstanding causing physical damage. And later on, that same misunderstanding would cause significantly more impactful damage, this time to their relationship.

[@jeremy1860]

I'm so glad her character has grown beyond what the comics originally gave her. For a long time she was either just a love interest or someone to die to make the main character feel guilty. But now? Now, she has agency, she has stories of her own, and she's not just a bit player in the tales of other characters. She's come into her own and I love that 😊

[@nonameless2]

"put love aside and focus on your characters" A LITTLE LOUDER FOR THOSE IN THE BACK

[@Sootielove]

Devoting the second film to Gwen's emotional arc worked so well. Miles' whole thing is that he *does* know who he is, what he can do, and what he wants. Compared to other spiderpeople, he's pretty stable and that gives him unique motivations in protecting the people he loves rather than being motivated by their deaths. Gwen is a more classic spiderperson, with grief, a difficult home life, and struggles to make connections. You really see how Gwen and Miles can learn and grow through knowing each other and Gwen has to take that leap of faith inspired by Miles to let someone in and be with him. It's also genuinely sweet seeing a kind of awkward teen romance played out by characters who like each other. Regardless of their romantic feelings, there's no doubt they love each other and want to be together

[@metacitizend1095]

One of the things I wanted to see in this film was Miles being his own Spiderman, in all media he seems to be mimicking Peter and in these films we see him chasing Gwen's perfect image. But by the end he realizes that they are not any better than him and he starts being his own hero and paving his own destiny. Can't wait to see how much everyone evolves in Beyond.

[@EyreAffair]

This was a phenomenal video essay! It really brought to mind a quote used by the "Watchmen" graphic novels: "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?", a Latin phrase translated as "Who will guard the guards themselves?", or "Who will watch the watchmen?". I think one of the most interesting this is that, to touch upon what Gwen says when she states that "in every universe, Gwen Stacy falls for Spider-Man, and it doesn't end well", in the "Exiles" comic books (#97-98), Miguel O'Hara does fall in love with an alternate, older Gwen Stacy while exploring another dimension. Instead of being Spider-Gwen in this particular universe, this Gwen is instead a member of the Fantastic Four. This comic series shows Miguel when he was still in the "empowerment" stage, where he and "his" Gwen met, and fell in love, before it all went wrong, and Miguel ended up causing Gwen's death. To quote "Exiles #97" on Miguel's POV of falling in love with "his" older Gwen Stacy: "It's been so long since Miguel O'Hara can remember a night like this...and the feelings that went with it. It started with a walk along the river, moved onto dinner, and then to dancing. They did their share of talking, which came as naturally and easily between then as breathing. But the words were simply prologue. What mattered...was what came after." [Image of Miguel and Gwen kissing.] Miguel feels empowered by his love for "his" Gwen, which makes him act more recklessly than he would when it comes to fighting people. Gwen voices her concern over Miguel's behavior. Miguel responds with an acknowledgement and an apology: "Mi corazon...I didn't think, I just acted. I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to upset you. I'll never do it again. All I want, Gwen, is for us to be happy." [Miguel hugs Gwen.] Later on, when Miguel's friends and Gwen's teammates get into a fight, they have another exchange. Miguel: "It shouldn't be this way! He's my friend! We don't have to fight!" Gwen: "And what am I [to you]?" Miguel: "Gwen, please, don't do this! I love you. Please don't force me to choose." Gwen: "Yet you would force me to choose, my darling. It's time for you to choose where you stand, Miguel. I love you...but I'm also a hero, and I will do my duty." [i.e. "I must always choose duty over love."] This choice leads to Gwen's dimension being destroyed. Miguel tries to save Gwen, but she sacrifices herself to save him. Miguel: "No! I won't leave you! Not yet! We're heroes! There has to be something we can do. We can't just let your whole world die!" Other superhero: "We're not God, Miguel. Some things can't be fixed. Some people can't be saved." Gwen: [backing away from Miguel, her choice made] "I'm so sorry, Miguel. I'm so sorry. Good-bye." Another superhero then goes into a monologue that is eerily reminiscent of what happens to Miguel himself in 'Across the Spider-Verse': "So, Victor...human existence has become all about you? Everyone else will die to save you, without hesitation and without thought, because nothing else matters. This is the way you've made them. No longer 'in God's image', whatever that means, but yours. Not because they've made a free choice, but because you've programmed it into their very souls...and the most awful, tragic thing...is that you don't even realize what you've done wrong, or even that you've done wrong." Miguel is then transported to another dimension, where he meets an alternate Mary-Jane Watson. MJ reams out Miguel for wanting to give up on being Spider-Man after he lost "his" Gwen: "Your Gwen made a choice. She refused to let you die with her. She loved you, Miguel. She saved you! Are you really going to spit that back in her face? If you truly feel for her, how can you dishonor such a gift? Make it mean something, Miguel. Your Gwen Stacy is no more than a memory now. She lives, her life as value, solely through you now. If you go, if you give up [being Spider-Man]...she's nothing." So Miguel goes from someone who was once so full of joy and love, seeing a future with someone he loved and wanted to marry and start a family with, so losing her, into the "cold, distant guardian, this still protector of the Spider-Verse, who never smiles, never jokes around, who has no compassion to spare, even in the most dire circumstances". Losing "his" Gwen has deteriorated his self-worth so much that he has lost sight of who he used to be, and sacrificed himself for the "greater good". When "his" Gwen died, it was a like a part of Miguel died with her, and he does everything he does out of a perceived duty. It's also likely that Miguel was the one to show Spider-Gwen what happened to every other Gwen Stacy in every other universe, presumably to try and steer Gwen away from seeing Miles Morales, and preventing a repeat of what happened between Miguel and "his" Gwen. We also see a similar protectiveness towards Spider-Gwen by the other Peter Parkers who have lost "their" Gwen Stacy in the comics, with one of them trying to protect Spider-Gwen from fighting out of his fear of her dying. Gwen, too, is a little "weirded out" by how well she gets along with the older Peter B. Parker and Mayday due to that Peter being older than her Peter, married, and with a child, whereas Spider-Gwen is still mourning the loss of "her" Peter Parker.

[@jillian5416]

16:22 “Don’t cry, you’re perfect” I see what you did there schnee

[@SovereignwindVODs]

Finally watched the movie last night so i can now get around to watching your analysis on it. One of my favorite things about the scene is when Gwen leans into Miles. In my own head, the fact theyre actually upside down at that moment makes it so mich more impactful. Upright, just shift your weight and let gravity do the work. Upside down, she's actually lifting herself to lean in like that. Sure, they're spider-people and incredibly strong. That move is probably nothing. But it feels so impactful to me

[@just-trying-my-best-everyday]

Enchanted? Is Schnee a secret Swiftie? We'll never know

[@applepie1272]

Tf

[@smithy3679]

What are you saying? Lmao

[@just-trying-my-best-everyday]

Enchanted is a Taylor Swift song. This was a joke 😂

[@noebyuu]

Omg he also said all too well and i was like HMMMM swiftie?! LOLL

[@darkecofreak23]

It is a great song to describe them.

[@jer103]

I think the main thing in a relationship is: vulnerability Gwen has to put up walls with the other Spider people and her family. With Miles she is more open, but not completely honest. She only lets herself get partially vulnerable.

[@thefast3414]

Great video as always One more surface level part of Gwen's reluctance at this time is that Gwen is being actively forbidden from making any sort of commitment to Miles. She's well aware that breaking the Spider Society rules by seeing him at all is not something that can continue under their status quo long term without her being caught and sent home forever. She could confess love to him anyway but that's very likely more painful to Miles than her just rejecting him in the first place, which is something she at least claims to, and likely does, want to avoid. The later events of the movie shake this all up massively, but Gwen's perspective in this moment has no expectation of this massive shift in circumstance where she might be able to even hope to keep seeing him

[@Catsmakemeselfconscious]

omg them hanging upside down is making my head hurt 😭

[@ailemasvega]

In an age of *content* where we forget about movies and shows in order to move to the next thing as soon as possible, I love how much effort you put into these video essays. It's also a testament to the quality of things like ATSV and Arcane that analysis like these are even possible.

[@jackal_9791]

What an amazing video. Really helped me clear up my own thoughts about the movie and the relationships portrayed in it. Also, how I never noticed relationships work because the people in them RELATE to each other (RELAT(E)ionship) - seems obvious, but it blew my mind. I guess that's the idea of people being "compatible". This video really helped drop a bombshell on my writers block and really clarify the relationship between my two main characters - like Miles and Gwen, one grew up too fast and the other never really grew up, so this was super helpful to figure out their dynamic. Cannot believe something this good is free - if I wasn't a broke student I would absolutely become a YT member. Keep up the great work, and keep the Spider-Verse videos coming! Can't wait to see what you analyse next.

[@kags9367]

Amazing video, LOVE your analyses, I always learn so much. I might push back slightly on Gwen turning Miles down though, the soft smile and shoulder bump after Miles says 'There's a first time for everything, right?' plus the hopeful music in the background suggest to me like they're perfectly happy being adorable besties at the current moment but they could be open to letting what they have turn into something more romantic in nature once they're both in a better place in their personal lives

[@jimbonguyen]

This is an incredibly insightful, lucid, and well-thought out essay on this subject. 💯

[@ziachung4547]

My day gets infinitely better every time Schnee uploads

[@Carlton17277]

This an incredible breakdown. I love Gwen and miles relationship so much. It’s really such great thing to see and I do agree with the three stages on empowerment, responsibility and synthesised. But I think I want to break down their relationship from ITSV and ATSV (btw I’m going to do miles and Gwen’s pov because it’s too long) ITSV: We don’t see much, but we all know that miles has a crush on Gwen and all we do see is little chemistry and tension between the two. The bus scene, is a good to see because it shows that miles is giving Gwen something that she has not had since Peter died and that’s affection and understanding. With that scene I think Gwen was opened to miles because she also gives him understanding on being Spider-Man and trying to figure it out. Gwen believes he will figure it out and send them home but also doubts him because he is young and not ready. But at end he does and she is proud. At the end, we get to see miles flirt with her and what I really like about miles is that he does not really want to rush things so he ended things being friends with Gwen taking a while to shake his hand because she knows she lost one friend and maybe she wanted something between them but also didn’t rush things. I also want to point out when we see holding the photo of her and miles, we get to see the background is pink which means love. ( I think in this movie, they ended platonically and I think was their friends, for now moments in the comics) I think this is their empowerment stage with Gwen developing feelings for miles, while miles having a crush on gwen. ATSV Miles POV: He is definitely in the Empowerment stage for Gwen but it’s in the responsibility stage for his parents by trying to protect them from the truth. Miles wants to go to Princeton to do physics so he can see his friends but mostly Gwen. With miles feelings for Gwen growing and his love for her getting stronger. He always wants to impress her and make her feel like he is all grown up from the puberty thing. Miles is such a great character because he is driven by love and hope no matter how impossible it is he will never surrender or give up on faith. Also I like how the writers while swinging shows a heart on miles suit. With him saying there is a first time for everything just gives us so much depth about his character that he always sees light at the end for him and Gwen. When miles saids goodbye Gwen it’s not only feel hurt or heartbroken but also he still loves and has feelings for her. Miles does not care about the past or his fate, he wants to save everyone but mostly one person u love. Miles love for his family sparks him and look what can happen if ur fighting for that one person, he outran the whole spider society and escaped. And that’s what Gwen admires most about miles his love and always trying to do both. At that moment he has opened the door on the synthesised stage based on his family and change the dynamic between him and Gwen. Gwen ASTV POV: Ok her feelings for miles were obvious from way the beginning. She imagined to kiss miles before falling in the collider, thinking about miles, holding a photo of her and him on why she continues to be Spider-Man and who she fights for and her questioning the watch if it can travel to other dimensions ( to see miles). I think that’s when she was in the empowerment stage. But when she was recruited that’s when she was in both empowerment and responsibility. When we first see her with miles she acts awkward a bit and as soon she stands up, the background of her is pink which I highlighted in the ITSV. Gwen calls miles Spider-Man which means she is calling him her Spider-Man because that’s the last thing she said to him in the first movie. Now Gwen did say “in every other universe Gwen Stacy falls for Spider-Man” which I think her confessing that she does have feelings for him (empowerment) but rejects it with her saying it doesn’t end well (responsibility) honestly i think she suppressed her feelings for him which probably hurt her the most like imagine being with someone I like but can’t be open due to different influences. Gwen always tries to protect him from the truth because she does not want to lose miles that’s why in mumbatten she got worried that miles was gone and she could’ve done better to prevent it. Gwen does take a stand with miles because he questioned canon events and the way he escaped At the end, I think what made Gwen see true light is her conversation with her dad. Gwen saying “I can’t help the people I love the most and they can only know half for who I am” that speaks out with how she couldn’t help peter, and now couldn’t help miles or her dad. By her dad not knowing who she truly is and not being fully honest or truly her self with her feelings for miles. I think her saying arrest me is her giving up and not caring anymore because no matter what does, people she loves end up getting hurt. With her saying that she is on her own that’s when she knows he hurt miles more than Peter which is emotionally. But breaking her father canon event of him quitting captain gave her hope that u can do both and can have a relationship with miles which what makes the hug truly heartfelt. When Gwen hears Rio say “I saw the way he lit up around her.” That’s when she entered stage synthesised by knowing he has fallen for her from the building scene and how she hurt him. she believes and is willing to take a leap of faith with her saying “one thing I learnt from miles it’s all possible”. I like how she wears miles hoody to show that he is comforting her and taking the photo of them with her as a reminder on who she is doing it all for. I really do think her character growth was because of miles love and affection for her. Both: Miles saids they are the same. They both act awkward around each other, get jealous of each other, miles draws cause he can’t stop thinking about her and Gwen plays the drums cause she can’t stop thinking about him, they have a real deep connection (Gwen sensing him in the first movie and sensing him from another universe), have this understanding and around the same age. I reckon we will see their romance blossom and get together at the end of BTSV. I honestly can’t wait to see more of their relationship unfold.

[@picomaginesouls4384]

dude your writing proves you felt the movie deeply . The message it conveyed has been reflected very nicely in your explanation of the characters.

[@Christian-zt9uq]

THIS

[@Carlton17277]

Thanks for the great replies guys. Much appreciated.

[@cillianjames5433]

You could write the movie bro

[@Carlton17277]

@@cillianjames5433 thanks for the nice reply. I wish I could.

[@bigtallpaul]

Across The Spider-verse is a lightning-in-the-desert moment for pop culture. Thank you bringing out WHY this movie hits so deep.

[@nina.nowhere]

Nothing can properly portray how much I love this video!!! It made so much sense and taught me so much, wow.

[@riccimercado3164]

Gwen was just following orders. She didn’t know any better at the time. Now she does. Now she has made a choice.

[@zacharybosley1935]

The Nuremberg defense for screwing over friends

[@fatthehorse7534]

"Im only human after all "

[@donathan2933]

Exactly

[@LionlordEbonfire]

Except she didn’t follow orders many times in the movie. With her father (freeze - she moved), Spiderwomen & 2099 (don’t see miles - she saw him, hung with hims and met his parents)

[@christiantwist3360]

25:56 I think another thing a lot of people don’t understand is that Gwen is at most about 16. She’s not even an adult yet.

[@platinumcomplex1335]

Amazing video as usual. ATSV reminds me of Arcane a lot with the way every element just gets better and better and better every second you spend thinking about it.

[@cat5220]

Ooooohhh this is fascinating!!! I have my own theory to add: Gwen says that in every universe, Gwen Stacey falls in love with Spider-Man. I think that's an interesting way to phrase it. Not "they fall in love with each other". Not "Spider-Man always falls for gwen". And i think it can be read two ways: 1. That Gwen always falls for Spidey, but he doesn't always fall for her (and perhaps her Peter only wanted friendship and rejected her) or 2, my favourite theory: Gwen sees the act of falling in love as the catalyst of the canon events (someone dying etc) and so she places blame on herself. It's HER falling in love that will kickstart bad events, it's HER attachment that puts people at risk, it's HER fault. She blames herself. I think Gwen is a character rooted in guilt (both deserved and not) and THAT is what is holding her back from Miles. She thinks that if she allows herself to love him, she will only bring pain and destruction to his life - and of course, she's desperately trying to prevent that.

[@LividE101]

This actually gave me another interpretation of Miles' current state in the superhero journey, which is that it's actually completely flipped around. Other spider-...heroes learn that having powers is awesome, but means you cannot connect with anyone else - maybe cool individually but completely isolating socially. Miles learns that having powers is kind of the worst, but it allows you to connect with awesome people who *get* you in a way nobody else has - crap individually, connecting socially. He doesn't become Spiderman the moment he becomes responsible to society like the others: his introduction to his powers is being told "here's a goober, you are now responsible for the fate of everything" before his powers are even remotely under control. Instead, he becomes Spiderman to help the other spider-heroes, not as an authority but as an equal. His love for others isn't a liability, it's his greatest asset. The superhero journey literally cannot account for Miles because Miles' arc is not the "canon" arc. Sidenote: I didn't realize until now how the Spiderman arc of "I must give up intimacy and connectedness with others for the Greater Good of society and the people I care about" plays so directly into To...tally harmful ideas of what maleness entails (phew), which I mean not primarily as a criticism but as a "really intriguing idea" as you say. Good stuff.

[@3_dblunits]

This man just made me see the movie in a whole new light thanks you have earned a new subscriber

[@nataliafoglia1101]

this is the best video about atsv I’ve ever seen, you really give an important meaning to miles and Gwen’s relationship, it truly is in another level of intimacy not saying in just in a romantic level, as characters their relationship IS IMPORTANT, meeting each other defined a lot of them as people. I’m glad people like you see this, not just the outside view of love tropes that everyone says they are.

[@KateIsNotAnAlien]

Miles legit just said “nuh-uh” in response to “if you don’t do this your entire universe will fall apart”

[@collardcow4183]

Your perspectives on the way this movie tackles relationships is really interesting and thoughtful, it’s not just something I’ll apply to my writing, it’s probably something I’ll apply to my relationships in the real world too. Amazing video, you worked hard on it and it shows. Thanks for being awesome

[@megasean3000]

What makes this sad is that Across ends with Miles believing he’s all alone. He believes every Spider-Man is his enemy, that Peter B., his mentor figure, hates him and more importantly: will never see Gwen again. They ended Into as friends, but left Across on bad terms. Sure Gwen is leading a Spider Revolution against Miguel for Miles, but Miles doesn’t know that. I just hope they end Beyond on good terms again. 😢

[@Finch_of_Berlin]

I really loved your video. The dive into the beauty and tension of this scene and these characters helps me see my experiences with better eyes. I'm currently 21, and it's easy to relate to both Miles and Gwen in their respective situations (aside from life-or-death heroism). So, thank you for helping me live through this tension and beauty of growing up and wanting something more while also trying to cherish what I've had and currently have.

[@XSV.Animate.Lab_723]

BRO I bet a crisp 100 monopoly sets that you would be the best reading teacher ever made