The ABSURD flying mechs that BattleTech forgot

[@scienceinsanity6927]

The awesome thumbnail artwork was done by Eldonius rex, an amazing artist that makes a tone of BattleTech art. If you'd like to see more (which i highly recommend) all of his socials are attached below. Huge thanks for letting me use the artwork. Astray3 comic: astray3.com Patreon: patreon.com/astray3 Buy my stuff at: astray3.bigcartel.com T-Shirts at: teepublic.com/user/eldoniousrex

[@Rashala]

To be fair we have Two flying tanks. The A-10 and the Apache attack heliocopter

[@ironwolfsaber2739]

I was about to say I don't remember robotech/Macross having a urban mech inspired destroid.

[@tsamoka6496]

Setting aside all of the legal kerfuffle...while I cannot confirm anything in a legal or cannon sense, I can share my thoughts. Unlike nearly every other type of mech, the lore for the LAM was built around the IRL limitations of the game programming and table-top rules of the franchise. The LAM is, in fact, TOO GOOD for the system it was thought up for. Basically, it's a spec-ops mech-killer that can use aerospace movement whenever it wants to. Unfortunately, NO version of Battlemech or Mechwarrior was ever created that could handle a very-fast, very mobile all-terrain mech that is just as at-home in air and space as it is on the ground. Sadly, the very abilities that made the LAM one of the best mech ideas ever created also are what killed it. No computer of the 80's could handle the speed and mobility of the design, while trying to use it in any tabletop campaign would both force the game maps to balloon to unmanageable sizes and leave GMs struggling with clunky movement rules that were never designed for something as fast and agile as this. As a result, the game devs DELIBERATELY nerfed the LAM as hard as they could just to discourage players from wanting to use it. This is merely papering over the flaws of the SYSTEM itself. Nowadays, there is very little that is actually stopping LAMs from making a triumphant comeback to rise into their rightful place of supremacy, except for a few obstinate holdouts. Mainly, two things. First: "But the lore says ___" My counter-argument? It's fiction. We can rewrite it. Second: "it doesn't work in the video games!" My response? We have computers that weren't built in the 1980's. We can do better. As the the table-top problems, That can be partially solved by rethinking how you use the LAM to begin with. The speed and maneuverability can only be handled once proper working aerospace rules and better maps are developed, but the combat is fairly easy. -First, throw out the existing lore. It's entirely useless and nothing but a waste of time. -Second, stop thinking of the LAM as a "battlemech" and start thinking of it as a "mech-hunter". -Third, the 'Conservation of Ninjutsu' is now your guiding doctrine. Seeing lots of LAMs is bad for them, seeing one LAM is bad for YOU. If you see a LAM, one of three things has happened. The LAM pilot is having a 'really' bad day and screwed up royally, you catch a glimpse of it as it exfils after leaving you as the sole survivor of your entire unit with a pilot seat to thoroughly bleach out, or you see it briefly step out of cover and your sense of sudden and inevitable impending doom has just informed you that the trap has been sprung with your soon-to-be extremely short lived rear-end very firmly in its jaws because "If 'that' LAM is revealing itself, where are the 'rest' of them?" A LAM is not a fighting mech. It is a killing mech. It is the assassin in the shadows, the tiger in the grass at night, the glint of a scope a mile away, and the shark lurking deep below your boat. The LAM is not the mech in front of you that you have to fight. It is the sound of a distant echoing crack, the instant cut-off of your lancemate mid-sentence, the fallen form of his mech after bonelessly crumpling to the ground, the sudden cold feeling of shock and dread creeping down your spine, and the persistent unshakable thought of "Am I going to be next?" It is not a danger, it is a THREAT. Did any of that creep you out a bit? Good. That's what a "real" LAM is. 😁 As such, using a LAM in a campaign becomes a fair bit different than your usual type of mech. While nearly every other kind of mech user inevitably ends up joining the Cult of the Assault-mech that preaches both "Bigger = Better" and "MOR DAKKA!!!", the LAM takes a different approach. That of the Elite Specialist. There are only a handful of things a LAM needs to become the existential threat of looming death it truly is. One, a long-range gauss rifle. Two, a TAG system. Three, a Radio/Comms unit. And four, Stealth. Literally EVERYTHING ELSE is entirely optional. Describing a LAM in combat is best compared with how a spec-ops soldier, secret agent, or a master shinobi fight. (Forget Naruto, punch-wizards don't count) In a typical mission, the enemy never knows the LAM is there. If the LAM has some other mission then just passive observation, then sneaking through enemy lines for things like sabotage, asset retrieval and data gathering are all standard fare. If more destructive actions are needed, then quietly painting a target and watching the fireworks display from an over-the-horizon grid-based un-healthcare delivery is childsplay. If more 'direct' action is required, then calmly framing a mech cockpit in their crosshairs and sending them a hypersonic invitation to the afterlife is just another tuesday. Having only one or two LAMs in play is perfectly fine, especially if you consider the following logic: LAMs are never mass-produced because they are expensive, and therefore more valuable, and therefore have far more requirements to 'match' that value. This means that logically, only the very best of the best will ever even hope to be granted the opportunity to pilot a LAM, and as such when a LAM is on the field, they are the number ONE biggest threat any average mech pilot could ever fear to face. To that end, LAMs should never operate alone, but having more than three or four of them is far too much. LAMs are best used as PC or NPC elite special units or as the BBEG(s) the players have to face. In conclusion, the LAM is not a bad mech. Far, far from it, in fact. What it is, is a badly misunderstood death machine that was too early for its day. It's up to us to prove that we can overcome the limitations of our past and show how the LAM can truly shine. =^x^=

[@clauro6153]

​@@tsamoka6496 I think the opposite direction could work better , keep them weaker but allows to retreat , let them be the first to enter and exit the battlefield , make them fight were the big ones can't get, the space the high places . About the lore, every technology sucks until don't , maybe the Flying Trashcan can be the first of the underpowered mechs to find a new place to shine

[@Rashala]

@@tsamoka6496 Personally I love the Urbie Lam Model. I plan to use the Air mode one with my atlas mech figure. gonna paint the clear rod grey slip it into the Atlas's hands and Say its my mechs Super Urbie Sledge

[@unit-zero]

Flying mechs in most media, viable, sometimes overpowered. Flying mechs in battletech, a coin toss of chaos and madness

[@SkylerLinux]

So Battletech is actually the more realistic version. Intersting

[@tomarmadiyer2698]

The ultimate risk reward. The best bug hunters. Ye gawds the kick in roguetech.

[@cody1570]

its mostly because mech warrior is grounded in a sense of realism where stats, balances and overall construction is a thing with their game. makes sense that a jet cant take as much hits as a tank

[@KamiRecca]

My favorite kind of coin toss

[@michaeladams2331]

The rules sets have at times made them absurdly overpowered. In the most current era, they have absolutely insane movement ranges, and skilled opponents can control the game with those even if they are somewhat fragile. They're also only somewhat fragile if you bought enough AA weaponry. In earlier eras, there's little to counter them with. IMO the problem comes down to the rules writers wanting them to be operational and strategic assets while the people who want to use LAMs in game want them to be overpowered in combat. That prior rulesets have often allowed for that just adds fuel to the fire.

[@talude7574]

As a TT LAM pilot, i am deeply offended by such slander. LAMs are clearly the ultimate form of mech technology, as no one ever managed to upgrade them.

[@seanbigay1042]

They have too been upgraded! These days they've got deflector shields, wave motion guns, hyperjump capability, and they load no missiles less potent than nukes ... Wait, that has nothing to do with BattleTech, does it? Damn, that's confusing.

[@SkylerLinux]

Yes they have, there is now Urbie LAMs, that's totally an upgrade

[@seanbigay1042]

@@SkylerLinux Dude, compared to Macross' later Valks like the Messiah, the Lucifer and the Siegfried, the Urbie LAM is just an overgrown R2D2 wannabe.

[@EricDKaufman]

I only watch this channel to be offended He doesn't know what he is talking about. That being said, Flying mechs don't work unless it is DFA

[@EricDKaufman]

@@seanbigay1042 That is a turbo nerd comment and bless you good sir for making it. Hat tip

[@flavortown3781]

The f4 phantom proved that you can make anything fly with enough engines

[@CiaranMaxwell]

It didn't fly so much as have a very low orbit.

[@BlackTheKnight]

Then, you get the T(actical) S(urface) F(ighter) version. And it, is, AWESOME!

[@vidfan1701]

You have a point, but the LAMs had way too much drag, was too heavy for the wings to generate enough lift. You can compensate with Godzilla breath-level engines. But the weight and heat production would be frightening to anyone but a YOLO pilot.

[@glytchd]

"With enough thrust.. even a Brick can fly!" - Chuck Yeager

[@vidfan1701]

@@glytchd Again, very true. But only Yeager could fly that brick.

[@xxoddball17xx29]

Harmony Gold suing people for the designs of transformable mechs despite not even owning the designs that they're suing people over.

[@jenniferstewarts4851]

Umm, yes and no. See harmony gold owned the the rights... not just to distribute the video, but toys, posters, etc. anything with the UN SPACY logo on it was theirs. And unfortunately, FASA artists liked putting the UN SPACY logo on things. It was like, if they decided to put the Rebel Logo's on fighters, with pilots wearing rebel logos on their flight helmets. pretty sure lucas arts would have been suing them.

[@xxoddball17xx29]

@@jenniferstewarts4851 While yes, that is true to a point, Harmony Gold has a VERY nasty habit of going beyong the bounds of their contract with the original creator of the designs... who also gave FASA designs for Battletech. They go so far beyond the bounds of this contract, that they're the reason that you'll never seen any of the more recent Macross stuff released officially outside of Japan, because the one time the original owners tried to release outside of Japan, Harmony Gold sued them. Harmony Gd lost that case btw... they just decided that the verdict didn't apply to them as, due to the Macross series and creators being Japanese, the case was handled in Japan.... they have prevented even the ORIGINAL MECHA DESIGNER FOR ALL OF THEIR LICENSED DESIGNS from releasing anything similar on grounds of copyright infringement despite the fact that they don't own the designs nor created them. As such.... you'll never see anything Macross related outside Japan because Harmony Gold are assholes who do nothing with the Robotech brand just up until their license is about to expire.... then release something to renew it. And being the Robotech and all it's affiliated designs are based on Macross.... They wield a license to distribute like they own everything. Even against the original creator of the designs they use.

[@Mike001-zq9zn]

They did Battletech was originally Battledroids​@@jenniferstewarts4851

[@XaviusNight]

Damnit GW! Er, wait, wrong company doing that exact thing.

[@Qardo]

Fast Forward a few months. Now Nintendo is suing Pocketpair, devs of Palworld, over Patent Infringement. Patents Nintendo filled WEEKS before suing. What is the patent Infringement? Throwing a ball. And not just that. Nintendo patent a lot of game mechanics. A lot. And if Nintendo wins. Gaming together is fucked. So. As much as this is not so much the same. It kind of is. All because HG sues anyone with a transformable robot. They even sued Hasbro over Transformers. Even though Transformers was also owned by another Japanese toy company, Diaclone. Though HG seems to have a hard-on hating any western company using anything tranformable robots. Until a US court finally told to stop and let it go. Cause they had nothing.

[@liljenborg2517]

As a guy who was there back when Battletech was a brand new game, even before Harmony Gold sought to claim everything Macross as exclusively, completely, and utterly "theirs" once you were farther than 100 meters from the Japanese coast (even when licensed from the toy company that actually created the designs - a company that had already licensed the design to Revel to make models out of and to Hasbro to make the Transformer Jetfire), the big problem with LAMs back then was that there were no RULES to actually play LAMs on the Tabletop back in the day. All the homebrew rules struggled with them. You have to remember, if your target mech moves, it reduces your ability to hit it. If your target mech runs, it's even harder to hit. If your target mech jumps it's even harder to hit. If your target mech FLIES, you basically have to roll higher than a 22 on two six sided dice to even have a chance of hitting it. Likewise, if YOU walk +1 to your to-hit number. If you run it's a +2. If you jump it's +3. So flying in a LAM it's +4 (or more if you're converting, too). And very quickly, you just can't hit ANYTHING. It's no wonder nobody liked to play them. They have since made some rules that some folks say are actually pretty good (I don't know, I haven't played them). But, dude. FASA did not RIP OFF their mech designs. They were legitimately LICENSED from the toy company that made the mech designs for Dourgram and Crusher Joe and, of course, Macross. Many of these same mech designs had also been licensed by the American model company Revel which was trying to bring the exploding Gunpla hobby in Japan to the US. (They actually had pallets of the models for sell in grocery stores trying to generate some sort of mass appeal - that's where I got mine.) They sold the models under the label "Robotech" and when Harmony Gold got the rights to Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeda and rewrote some of the dialog to turn the three unrelated series into a single narrative to get enough episodes to syndicate the series in US markets (and, they hoped, make tons of toys and merch to jump on the Transformers bandwagon) they suddenly realized that they'd been beaten to the punch by Revel and that's why they branded THEIR fusion story as "Robotech", too (with Revel's permission). Then Battletech and Jetfire appeared and Harmony Gold was furious that "their" mechs were appearing other places. They thought they had exclusive rights to sell toys based on Robotech - not knowing that the people they bought the rights from didn't have exclusive rights to the toy designs - those were held by the toy company that had already licensed the designs out. They were able to convince a judge in Japan that they had PAID for the toy-rights, too, and the judge gave them a ban-hammer they then were able to use not just on FASA, but also on Hasbro - and on any Macross sequels, toys, models, etc. that came out in Japan (it was actually as big a franchise as Gundam was). By that time "Harmony Gold" had gone bankrupt and was a small real estate office employing lawyers to go after FASA, Hasbro, and companies trying to import the Macross sequels, hoping to someday, eventually get a live-action Robotech movie off the ground. But fear of even more lawsuits made FASA stop using the designs of all their OG mechs - even the ones licensed from series Harmony Gold had never even touched. (Part of this was that they, too, had jumped on the sue-happy bandwagon when their partnership with Playmates to make mechs based on the Battletech animated series went south and Playmates re-used some of the designs for the Exosquad toys.) And then, after licensing their IP to Activision and then Microsoft to make video games . . . Battletech became such a Gordian Knot of IP rights holders FASA just sold the mess off to WizKids. Could it all have gone better of FASA had used their own designs? Possibly, but remember, FASA was a GAME company. They knew how to make RULESETS not robots. They weren't toy-designers or production engineers who specialized in robotics. So, instead of drawing up their own designs (and you see how much worse the designs they came up with were) they just went to some of the greatest experts in mech design, and paid (in good faith) for a couple dozen, ready-made (and for sale) designs. They didn't know IP obsessed wacko Harmony Gold would then go on to make their lives so miserable they just sold off their own company to dump the legal mess off in someone else's lap. OH, and one more thing: The "stinger" LAM was based on an F-14 Tomcat, which weighs in at 20-tons. That's where FASA came up with the bottom of the mech weight scale.

[@tomarmadiyer2698]

That last line is a *mindsplosion*

[@johnwinters3666]

The original concept behind battledroids was a rulesset that let you fight all your favorite anime mecha As for in universe, these were niche; recon and light raiding...the ability to convert to aero fighter and run back to orbit on its own.

[@johnwinters3666]

Oh and on the Macross package Valkyrie weighs 18 tons; but shorter than tomcat

[@NaglfarCommando]

Great post. I came in around 92/93 area and man.. I loved Macross/Robotech prior but hate Harmony Gold now.

[@LeonardMiyata]

You need to mention the legal reasons behind all of this. FASA purchased the mecha designs used the the LAM, from a Japanese company not concerned with world wide Intellectual Property rights that produced the Anime Macross TV series. The legal issue started when the US company Harmony Gold purchased the world wide rights outside of Japan to Macross, from a different company, which after years of court battles in Japan found that this company only had the rights to new designs used in the Macross movie and not the designs in the original Macross TV series. Harmony Gold used Macross as the core video for the Robotech series and promptly claimed world wide rights for its series.. Because of the Harmony Gold ownership claims, FASA was forced all further development for the LAM development. And the world wide impact on the Japanese court ruling resulted in the international rights to Macross was shared by two companies who hated each other guts, which kept the FASA development ban still valid.. This explains why Macross sequels Macross 7, the Macross Zero prequel OVA, the major award winning Macross Frontier series, and the Macross Delta series were never incorporated into Robotech, or directly licensed for US distribution.

[@glytchd]

"With enough thrust.. even a Brick can fly!" - Chuck Yeager probably

[@cesaravegah3787]

The F4 fighter was a great example of it.

[@xoso599]

In BattleTech: The Crescent Hawk's Inception you find you dad's Phoenix Hawk LAM in a SL cache.

[@valor1omega]

I enjoy that game and still play it to this day. I still play the original mech warrior game for DOS as well. I kinda wish they would remake the crescent hawk games to play on modern PCs and or the phones. The adventures of Jason Youngblood and rex Perice. Oh speaking of CHI did you know that you could get up to four - five mechs depending on chance? Not always will there be a traitor in your midst. And sometimes you will have a tech with the piss poor p/g skill.

[@MultiSteveB]

I ever got the chance to play either CH game, but I was under the impression (and from the book) it was a "standard" Mech. I never read any lines about transforming...

[@barrybend7189]

Fun fact the middle stage in land air mechs since they were based on Macross Variable fighters is called Gerwalk mode. It's an acronym that stands for Ground Effective Reinforcement of Winged Armament with Locomotive Knee-joint, it was thought of by Shojo Kowamori ( designer of Macross VF fighters and Armored Core mechs and Ace Combat planes)when he was skiing.

[@tomarmadiyer2698]

*MORE EPIC TRIVIA* YAY!

[@anionleader]

​@tomarmadiyer2698 Yeah, the man came up with the ASF-X Shinden II for Ace Combat.

[@barrybend7189]

​@@anionleaderand white glint for Armored core.

[@gerogyzurkov2259]

He also did Gundam. He's now doing a Macross project with Sunrise/Bandai. Same studio that does Gundam.

[@patrikcath1025]

I absolutely love the fact half of these just turn into regular real-life jets but with legs, and just end up doing the job of an attack helicopter. Extremely scrunkly

[@warhiever1803]

Came for the trashcan, didn't disappoint

[@johnwinters3666]

The urbie lam was a misprint on a random encounter table that became its own thing

[@A88mph]

Don't call LAMs stupid. They're the reason I wanted to play Battletech in the first place (though a lack of knowing Aerotech rules has still prevented me from doing so thus far).

[@earnestbrown6524]

The Glaug Officer Pod is why I started.

[@braddl9442]

The thing is tactically they have a role. The issue is that role is actually kind of niche. Having units that can drop from high orbit to take a landing zone is can work. But you have to treat it as a specialist unit like that. And they have useses in aerospace, where though slower, they could transform and land on ships and do some real damage. One the coolest stories was of a LAM pilot taking down drop ships cause they did not Expect it.

[@deltazeta5506]

They fall under WiGE rules when in air mech mode. Which is the only Mode you ever use. Just put a 3/2 pilot in the LAM and it's a God on the classic bt battlefield. You'll hit on 7s while they hit on 11s to 12s Edit: though their special clause in WiGE rules is that they can go above elevation one with no major penalties. And just don't full throttle otherwise you have to face side skidding. You'll have like 18 hexes of movement anyways so even if you don't "run" and you'll be perfectly fine.

[@gordonyork6638]

@@deltazeta5506 Did you draw them on your school notebook?

[@deltazeta5506]

@@gordonyork6638 what does that even mean?

[@jrwilliams7534]

Harmony Gold at one point tried to sue Hasbro for the Transformers. Saying that All things that transform fall under Harmony Golds copyright.

[@braddl9442]

Yeah, they were wrong in a lot of their lawsuits.

[@barrybend7189]

Now Takara and Macross are colabing next year.

[@TheQuantum36]

technically one of those transformers , you could make the argrument that it did fall under Harmony Golds copyright for Macross.. It was the jetfire toy which was a Macross strike valkyrie or in the US a veritech fighter with strike armor

[@gerogyzurkov2259]

​@@barrybend7189 Now Gundam with Sunrise/Bandai with the creator making Macross.

[@DTSephiroth]

Back in the day, I owned a lance of LAMs; Phoenix Hawk, 2 Wasps and 1 Stinger. This was during one of the phases where LAMs were OP AF and still looked like their Macross counterparts. I was an absolute terror on the field with these things, kicking heads off in flyby attacks and occasionally shifting to Aerospace mode to strafe across the enemy line. I didn't score many kills with them, but I did my job of being a major distraction until my team's lances could get into position and wipe out the enemy. As a fan of Robotek and Macross in general, I did love these, but I do admit you make a lot of fair points about them. Restrictions in build designs combined with no real way to modernize them, and the tech being chaotic at best meant they ultimately would not stand the test of time. Would love to see them become viable, but I have no idea what that would even look like at this point.

[@tomarmadiyer2698]

Roguetech Hard points are op. Vulcan shredddddds vehicles.

[@NuclearFalcon146]

Funny enough I have seen a Robotech tabletop rules book so that might be one way to use them. Put them back in their original setting and suddenly they become viable again, almost like they are back where they belong!

[@deltazeta5506]

They still are technically op if you use phoenix hawks and have a 3/2 pilot. Just stick to airmech mode and you basically decide the engagement terms no matter what. You hit on 7s, they hit on 11s and 12s.

[@connormclernon26]

I’m gonna be rolling an Urbie LAM soon

[@Mr.Beauregarde]

Any adequately sized rocket salvo will make an urbie into a LAM Or just a second urbie if you're in the BPLs Urbie Derby

[@tomarmadiyer2698]

This is your reminder to return your mech rental.

[@Deridus]

Oh, I already built mine. Had to downgrade to an AC-2, though...

[@niccolomiglio6996]

Yeah, the Urbie LAM is fun and all, but hear me out: King Crab LAM

[@patrickkenyon2326]

All it would need is a couple Saturn 5s in each leg...

[@niccolomiglio6996]

@@patrickkenyon2326 easy peasy ahhahaha

[@billable1861]

KFO

[@niccolomiglio6996]

@@billable1861 what?

[@patricknakasone9376]

Within the lore of Macross/Robotech, there is a in-universe logic to the Valkyrie/Veritech fighters. They where intended to be able to counter the giant humanoid Zentradi in both ground and air combat

[@brothersgt.grauwolff6716]

if you look at the Technology base of the respective franchises Macross/Robotech is a mixture of Human/Alien technology whereas Battletech is pure Human technology so that's why LAMs don't make sense in Battletech

[@Scudboy17]

​@@brothersgt.grauwolff6716 yup. Robotech/Macross mechs benefited from having access to superior alien technology. In Robitech it was literally "robotechnology" powered by protoculture, an organic power source. In Macross, they had access to "over technology" that cam from the Proto-Culture, the long dead alien race that basically seeded all humanoid life throughout the galaxy. Macross mechs did not have a super power source like Robitech did, but they did have compact fusion reactors that powered most mechs. The early valkyrie fighters actually just used traditional jet turbines, but were replaced with the much more efficient fusion engines later.

[@najlitarvan921]

10:05 heresy, the gerwalk is awesome

[@LezzyMania_02]

It's a cool gimmick but sadly Copyright Issues where a bitch sometimes all thanks to Harmony.

[@braddl9442]

And in court after many years harmony lost in a lot of the legal wranglings. But they dragged the case on for 20 years.

[@blackc1479]

Seems like it'd be simpler to retrofit a light mech w essentially a jump jet/turbine backpack strong enough to keep it up for extended periods. Its not like they were stealthy in the first place. Roughly the same weight, fully functional and upgradable mech, just with an add on.

[@tomarmadiyer2698]

That's the Solaris way to think.

[@tomarmadiyer2698]

Psssst Hey kid *You want some melee parts?*

[@Sethry406]

That toy at 6:55 is ironically what got to me into Battletech. Left me with a soft spot for the concept of LAMs even if i wouldn't ever use or allow them in a game. That being said, the Urbie LAM art with the VF 84 jolly roger scheme is a happy place for me.

[@tomsimpkins1211]

When my friend saw the Lurbie, he was so happy. He had loved piloting a little stompy urbie in Mechwarrior 5 with me, in fact he was running an ac-10 bf m laser build well into the end game. His urbie provided the fire support we needed, spotting targets from different angles and providing potshot cover fire.. So imagine his hype when he sees the Lurbie, his support vehicle but made even better! His fit when he learned not every mech makes it to the games was great. If LAM's make it to Mechwarrior Clans I'll be surprised, but it will be a pleasant one.

[@TheRazaah]

So everybody slept on the potential of an orbit to ground module for light mechs ? The raven already has a pretty good shape for something that flies. Modify it so it can take a flight module that can carry a fully outfitted stealth sniper/harrasser raven built that can slip through orbital defenses. You drop them in basically undetected, they can ditch the landing module which can later be re aquired if the battle is won. The modules entire purpose is to get the mech to the ground. Thats it. Stealthy light mechs are fast enough on foot. The only additional training a mech warrior would need is basic drop and evasion 101. They are not supposed to fight in the air. The purpose would be to interupt or destroy ground to orbit weaponry so the big guns can drop in or to be dropped in advance and stay hidden until a bigger battle start at which point the stealth lance would just be able to flank the enemy basically unopposed. Maybe there was something like that and if not.. man battletech military has no imagination.

[@magni5648]

One-way "drop pods" are a thing for Mechs of all weight classes already, just rarely used. Stealth insertion is not a thing. Battletech is rather realistic in that there is no stealth in space. The moment the lightspeed lag to your jump point has passed, everyone in the system who pays any attention knows you're there and can track you for the rest of your stay.

[@TheRazaah]

@@magni5648 It wasnt about them not know about you being there its about them not knowing you snuck something on the surface while they were busy watching your main force. The only thing stealthy was to be the single lance of tiny lights. Mask it as debris, act like the orbital defense knocked something off your ships. Thats what i am talking about. In fact i was banking that they wouldnt miss your force arriving.

[@magni5648]

@@TheRazaah Yeah, that just doesn't work. There is no stealth in space. Period. "Masking as debris" doesn't work when a simple IR camera can track your whole force from halfway across the solar system. Your plan effectively relies on the other side not paying attention to what anyone with half an ounce of suspicion would immediately peg as a potential infiltration attempt.

[@valor1omega]

A friend of mine made a joke Urbanmech where it was so stripped down that it was 1/2/1 Heavy Gauss Rifle w/1 ton of ammo and tissue paper armor.

[@hannahleith52]

And Catalyst just showed me an entire box full of Urbanmech LAM's this morning and now I can't live without them.

[@Mr.Beauregarde]

Veritech Fighters are awesome. You are objectively wrong.

[@jasonmorello1374]

Veritech is Robotech/Macross. Battletech paid heavy penalties and go little play value from trying to copy them. they work when they are the biggest nasty on the field of battle, but no where else.

[@Mr.Beauregarde]

@@jasonmorello1374 NERRRRRRRRRRRRRRD

[@seanbigay1042]

Well, that's a big part of the problem -- because Veritech is Macross, not BattleTech, and made for mucho legal trouble between FASA Corp. and the Macross franchise.

[@shanepatrick4534]

Harmony Gold is just awful.​@seanbigay1042

[@seanbigay1042]

@@shanepatrick4534 You'll get no argument from me! I had the chance to see both Harmony Gold's version of Macross and a Filipino-dubbed version thereof, so I could see where HG Macekred the original anime.

[@IAmTheAce5]

Given that the square-cube law goes against ‘conventional’ mechs, wouldn’t they want the benefit of increased strength-weight ratio material development that would serve these LAMs?

[@stephenlarson9422]

due to the way the BT rules are written if you save mass you add internal volume. Endo Steel, ferro-fibrous armor , and XL engines all have to compete with the"mecha shifting" (term stolen from RWBY) tech for space.

[@DoomsDayDragonDaishi]

​@stephenlarson9422 so look at their clan versions, they reduced the internal need with a more finished product. By the way there is a maradur LAM we never got

[@wwbdisthename]

Lams problem was copyright

[@Sm00k]

Energy fields. Tensor energy fields.

[@Khymerion]

Ah yes, the post nerf rules that were slapped onto the units to make them trash while earlier incarnations in the Aerotech 2 era that still were useful. When your devs utterly go out of the way to make sure that these units are utterly terrible instead of actually having a role. Oh well, I choose to ignore the modern rules and play with the older rules that still let you use all the high tech toys.

[@ltcinsane]

The little Trashcan that could! XD Also yeah .. fuck Harmony Gold. I am at least amused that Harmony Gold has lost a bit of their ability to sue battletech stuff.

[@thorshammer8033]

Harmony Gold had rights to jack shit. That was the final court decision

[@igorsdonjon2271]

Harmony Gold can f*** themselves

[@donaldcampbell3043]

The book Far County featured a LAM, as did one of the Twilight of the Clans books

[@Ptaaruonn]

Makross had the right idea the VFs were awesome, awesome toys too. ^ ^

[@Scudboy17]

I am proud to say I am the reason LAMs were permanently banned in my Battletech gaming group. We had a "bring your own mech" battle royal tournament, and while everyone else was bringing in Atlas's and Archers, I brought a Phoenix Hawk LAM and totally trounced the table using the strafing rules from Aerotech. Basically you could just designate a row of hexes as your straffing run and you got to roll attack EVERYTHING in that row, or the 3 hex row I could use at the time. Battletech did not have the antiaircaft rules that were introduced later so the only thing they could do was try to hit me with normal attacks, which was basically not possible unless I chose to land, which I did not lol.

[@thepiratemongoose8965]

Even without strafing, in GERWALK mode LAMs make incredible backstabbers. When you lose initiative, you have the jump MP to get to the opposite side of the map; when you win initiative, you have the jump MP to land right behind your opponent. An Atlas isn't nearly as scary when you're punching through that thin back armor and it can only bring one medium laser to bear in response.

[@lordMartiya]

The LAM Urbie would be extremely effective, because the enemy would be too busy either laughing or trying to process what they're seeing to fight back.

[@dabluflcn]

I feel attacked that you think we only clicked on this vid for the flying urban mech. I clicked on this video for the flying urban mech.

[@MistyWhisps]

YES!!! More battletech videos!! Y'all's videos are absolutely wonderful, and are only beat by Tex and Sven van Der plank in the realm of battletech videos.

[@narethliansgamespace3860]

As a TT LAM pilot, they are either a huge waste of space and points, or a force multiplier. More often the former than latter, which is why I use them in Campaign situations that can play to their strengths. No one expects one of the fighters strafing your firebase to drop from the sky and start rampaging as a mech, killing Turret Generators or Mobile Headquarters units.

[@randomcenturion7264]

Imagine how terrifying it would be seeing a bombing run turn into a ground assault in like a minute

[@Valandar2]

And every single fan of Macross, Gundam, and Transformers becomes enraged by this ridiculous, arrogant, and deliberately insulting tirade. And having been exposed to this channel, I've added it to my "Do not reccommend" channel. Seriously, you can talk about the stupid ideas of scifi without insulting them and the people that enjoy them.

[@memeboy8207]

(Checks notes) you are complaining about the misrepresentation of valks in a battletech setting. Very different contexts.

[@vandarkholme4745]

18:02 Someone put in the effort to paint a lirby on a Macross background. Beautiful.

[@mateuszbanaszak4671]

14:04 Don't blame us. Its a Irish word for "ghost". If you wanted, for whatever reason, read it as a Polish word, then it could be diminutive of word "pewnie" ("for sure"/"probably") , "pewka".

[@ZerebusPrime]

From my very limited TT experience, the main reason we never used LAM's was that they would too quickly move beyond the boundaries of the limited game maps I had access to. Even for a scenario in which they fly in, land, and then start fighting, the disadvantages they have against true battlemechs made using a LAM unpalatable. And then ditto for an Aerotech game.

[@JoeyDCote]

Yeah, the two rule sets didn't work great with each other due to scale. And frankly, weapons like the AC 2 suffered a similar problem. Lack of room to keep backing up.

[@Romuls753]

I want the Atlas LAM

[@jamesallison2753]

King crab LAM

[@jenniferstewarts4851]

Look up Shinnakasu/Northrom Grumman's VB-6 König Monster An anti-warship/fire support LAM, mounting 4x 320 mm reflex rail guns, and 2 x Raytheon/Shinnakasu 3-barrel Anti-Ground Anti-Ship Heavy Missile Launchers. Seeing that thing "hit" the top of a warship skid across it before digging in, and firing its 4 rail guns across the deck at another warship... is just beauty.

[@davydatwood3158]

To buck the trend: I'd never heard of the Urbie LAM before this. I'm a Macross fan who occasionally engages with BattleTech, and a visitor had recently misidentified my Valkyrie display as "that's a lot of LAMs." So I was curious about the lore of these variable-vehicles in BattleTech. Presumably there was a lot of pressure in the early days to include the transforming Valkyries from people who were fans of both BattleTech and Robotech. My only conclusion is that FASA (rhymes with NASA, that was a deliberate choice I'm sure) just didn't like LAMs even before the Harmony Gold BS, and decided to make them an in-universe "bad Idea." Which is a shame, because there was a huge potential to give the LAMs the same role on a BT battlefield as paratroopers on a WW2 battlefield - light, minimally equipped forces that can seize an objective and hold it until the conventional ground forces catch up. Of course, this ultimately runs into the problem pretty much all tactical-level wargames have: the lack of the strategic and operational level of need and planning. In WW2 the United States could afford to have two entire divisions whose main job was to wait until there was a particular need, then send them off to fight a lopsided but very important battle, trying to stay alive until the tanks and infantry could catch up. WW2 gamers spend time and money building up minis to represent the 101st and 82nd so they can recreate these historically significant battles. How many BT players would be willing to invest in a force of LAMs if a) they main way you sued them was trying to stay alive against a larger enemy, and b) the most cool part of them - the transformation - wasn't actually used on the tabletop, because the "Fighter" mode was really only there to get you to the battlefield and to get you away again after? So the rules have to make the transformation interesting and useful on the table, and if the designer dislikes the entire concept, that's a big ask.

[@tonyblitz1]

Think you had an editing oversight at 14:00 in Otherwise, great video as always!

[@Eserchie]

I must confess to owning far too many LAMs for any reasonable purpose.

[@dimman77]

God, but watching Macross videos of the Veritech fighters is so damn cool though... Also LAMs made a lot, lot more sense with the original, terrifying to the ground pounders, Aerotech bombing and strafing rules. Having a Phoenix Hawk that could spontaneously transform into a fighter to engage, off the ground map, something like a 25 ton Sabre light aerospace fighter that had not only 3 medium lasers that could strafe nearly the entire ground battle map, but also the ability to carry 4 100 damage bombs, or 10 40 damage bombs, or whatever combination of 400 damage, THAT IT COULD DROP ALL AT ONCE ON A SINGLE TARGET, BYE BYE ATLAS while still flying with a 3/5 thrust rating. OR you could strap two 100 damage bombs on a Stinger LAM and ruin ANY assault mech's day, with what is essential a potential one shot AC-200 (TWO HUNDRED) on a STINGER... When that was nerfed, you didn't need that integrated fighter support anymore, and a Rifleman was no longer a first victim, but a viable defense against aerospace fighters.

[@Sealhunt]

My friend, I had no idea that there were flying mechs in Battle Tech. I knew they used jump jets, but straight up flyers? No sir. Great video by the way. At least Battle Tech never tried to make all the characters a bunch of super models with angst issues. By the way, you just got another subscriber.

[@ImRuined666]

Saw you used screenshots from the RogueTech overhaul for the BattleTech PC game... LAM's in RogueTech can be absolutely amazing units...

[@TheRyderShotgunn]

i kinda wanna know how the battletech universe would react if they somehow found out about armored cores. on one hand you have mechs with fusion engines that have an average top speed of 64kph, on the other hand you have mechs with internal combustion engines that can fucking fly at 300+ kph

[@flavortown3781]

Ac4fa would like a word, 1300kph+

[@najlitarvan921]

With how much kojima radiation those spit out, i feel luke they would be treated a swmd​@@flavortown3781

[@TheRyderShotgunn]

@@flavortown3781 yeah but those are NEXTs, that use a funny reactor instead of an even funnier internal combustion engine

[@ghoulbuster1]

ACs are extremely light though, the heaviest ACs are around 10 tons. Also all ACs have full jump jets that are almost always on to increase speed.

[@spartanonxy]

@@ghoulbuster1 That is more an issue with the stats of the earlier games. With AC6 we can see parts weighing way more then that. For example there is an arm with a 13000 weight which based on the dev would be in kilo's. So what over 14 tons for the arm pair alone. So I would take the earlier games weights with a grain of salt.

[@Versudan]

No, the Phoenix Hawk LAM was not the heaviest. The Waneta was 5 tons heavier than the Phoenix Hawk LAM at 55 tons and the heaviest ever made was the Champion LAM at 60 tons. Also I was here for the lore. Because I unironically love LAMs. 😁

[@PaganPilot]

then there's the Champion LAM, witch 60 tons n always wore down its conversion gear

[@Versudan]

@@PaganPilot True, good point. Edited my original entry.

[@nikushim6665]

LAM's weren't terrible initially in tabletop they just got kinda retconned out to said lawsuits. Harmony gold likes to ruin anything even loosely connected to Macross out of the hopes that their Frankenstein abomination of a franchise would make a come back (Robotech), spoilers it didn't. They still keep on patent trolling anyways.

[@CaptainRufus]

There is a reason for that. They don't actually do anything with Robotech besides IP troll. It's approaching 20 years since they last actually tried releasing something new for the brand outside of licensing comic books nobody reads or cares much about. (And it's currently on the 4th or 5th comic book company to try it, 6th depending on if you count the 2 issue Robotech Defenders DC comic.). They claim it makes mad money in China and that the last thing they did on DVD made mad money but again it's been nearly 20 years since it came out. Robotech was a 2nd string 80s show honestly. Wasn't on nearly as many stations as the more popular shows were and doesn't have remotely the Gen X cachet other shows back then had. It's basically a dead brand and the way Harmony Gold is with lawyers has basically made it hated with almost everyone. Both Battletech and Macross fans despise them. Their actions all but ensure nobody new is going to get on board to watch a bunch of early 80s anime bolted together.

[@dimman77]

I don't know exactly what the details were but PGI, makers of MechWarrior Online, fought and won against Harmony Gold by way of proving that Harmony Gold didn't actually own the rights in the way that they claimed, and Harmony Gold was essentially told to legally piss off. However the Battletech licensing is confusing to me as it itself is broken up by media or something? Like the tabletop and digital games are two different IP licences now, Microsoft owning digital and Catalyst owning tabletop or print or something?

[@nikushim6665]

@@dimman77 They fought because HG's dispute with MWO was over something that was already settled by FASA and later TOPPS/wizkids. And that was the mechs that had been modified enough to claim fair use. (Marauder, shadowhawk, Warhammer, Rifleman etcetera)

[@Brendan1259]

You forgot the Scorpion L.A.M.

[@alexisnorman9446]

Especially as the Scorpion LAM almost makes sense. Get rid of most of the fancy transforming systems, and replace them with naval-style folding wings and legs with slightly greater range of motion to lift them into a slightly smoothed position. The problem is that this is not a mech, it's a VTOL fighter and would work better which wheels

[@Ragnar_Steiner]

i love the fact that Catalyst, the moment Harmony Gold lost the final lawsuit, put out a box with the Unseen in it.

[@therizinosaurus214]

Harmony Gold has done a lot of damage to Macross

[@NaglfarCommando]

And to anime or anyone that has anything similar.. Fuck Harmony Gold.

[@AlexSDU]

23:03 That's just literally a VF-1 Valkyrie from SDF Macross. Based on the color marking, most probably Hikaru Iichijou's VF-1J. 10:40 AFC-01I Iota Legioss from anime series Genesis Climber Mospeada. 18:40 VF-19 Excalibur from Macross franchise.

[@foznoth]

Thank you for the heads up on the Urbanmech LAM box, just pre-ordered it 😅

[@BigSwede7403]

Ahahaha, at 18:20 when it is asked "Would it be effective?" i got an advert break with a Swedish song that translates roughly to "You are the most beautiful thing i know."

[@SenorGato237]

Catalyst sells an Urbie LAM. Therefor the flying trashcan is canon.

[@AWholeLegionary]

Nah. It'd need an officially canon source and record sheet to be canon.

[@egoalter1276]

It has an official model.

[@courtuption4937]

If you can mass produce urbi mechs and had a flying varient as well you will have the cheapest largest meme supportive army In the univers. Not even the tribes could stop them

[@wolfjarlgrbane5771]

Look, When Fasa created them, It was just a unique concept and as you said Sci Fi. I piloted one. It has advantages and the garbage can is a fan based idea. Instead of beating a dead tree, understand it was fun while it was available. Yes they got in trouble but I loved it. Mine was my own. So the advantage was flying in, jump out of range and back in.

[@nicholasscovelle1772]

as a macross fan I can say yea no suprise harmany gold did that shit they even faught with the IP owners to ensure macross proper would not come to the west only robotech

[@NutjobGTO]

The LUrbie lurching toward canon means my dreams of a 100-ton King Crab LAM are completely legit

[@stormycatmink]

As a Robotech enjoyer, always loved LAMs. Was one of the few who knew how to employ them. But yeah, was broadly disliked by others, and even I saw the inefficiency in them. Good to hear they're back. I'll have to look it up.

[@TheKianykin]

Humans built a submarine that could launch an aircraft. We definitely will have flying urbies.

[@jamesallison2753]

Space urbie goes zoooom

[@robustdelirium9277]

“What if we made mechs that could turn into fighters?” “But…. We already have mechs and fighters….”

[@averywhitaker3513]

"We have a fighter We have a mech UHHH Fightermech"

[@Dirt1061]

Only here for flying urbie. It needs many head pats.

[@madfoxlabs3436]

Eow, I am a Macross/Robotech fan, also a mechwarrior Battletech fan, Always loved the TImber Wolf Mark 1. I can understand that there is no "balanced" to implement LAMs into a ground battle based table top. Because Variable Fighter or VeriTech depending on the show being Macross, Robotech or Mospeda in some cases are extremely effective in battle when used correctly. They are unforgiving to unskilled pilots, sometimes above average to good pilots are not enough to keep up with them. Demanding only Super Ace pilots to fully shine, an alien "Over technology" to even be built, There is too big a gap between them and standard Ground base mecha or Battle Mechs. They aren't known for particularly tough armor or high capacity missile payload , so perhaps an actual functioning LAM in Battle Tech should prioritize Speed, Agility and Reliability , carrying minimum light armor, single use lightweight SRM and LRM launchers, ARROW 4 would be funny, and a reliable main gun armaments to deal with most lower priority targets. As long as it can position itself for surprise attacks and empty it's payload into the back of the enemy mech and pull away, it could function in ground campaign battles ambushing convoys and lone mech or small squadrons. Best use I can think of is to get behind enemy lines, set up an ambush and take out the Heaviest Battle Mech they can see in an enemy formation and flee the area to reload. These designs will actually do better in Air or Space Battles as they can maneuver in stranger ways than a traditional Fighter Aircraft, Starfighters or Aerotek Fighter. No one wants to be in a Yellow Jacket Chopper and see one of these come at you from your flank.

[@SpiritWolf1966]

I enjoy all of SCIENCE INSANITY videos

[@xavierhibbs4850]

Some guy did a fan project called jumpmechs, don t remember who but basically lams that didnt transform, just mechs built to be semi airbirne

[@richardnicholson3827]

It's a great awesome video there. As I mentioned before in the Urban Mech video of yours. Which was a great video, by the way. A line from a classical movie The Wonderful Life always comes to mind to me here. And it's somewhat goes like this every time you hear a bell ring and Urbie gets its wings.

[@JS-kr8fs]

LAMs: "What are you?" Battlemechs/Aerospace fighters: "We're you, but better."

[@a.h.1358]

Down with Harmony Gold

[@JMDahl1964]

I truly miss your videos so this will help my Saturday

[@AiMaTay]

Battletech with FTL music? S tier video, subbed

[@popeadam25000]

When you want to copy Battletech, but don't want to say you are copying Battletech, till a lawsuit ravages your company.

[@magicalgirl1296]

The flying urban mech in the thumbnail has UN Spacy and Skull Squadron iconography from Macross, that's cute. If it performs anything like an actual Macross VF then that's one hell of a glow up.

[@MrMortull]

Having watched this, I don't want to sit in the cockpit of an Atlas or a Marauder or a Highlander *bagpipes*... ...I wanna be a Lurby pilot and fly that gloriously idiotic brick straight into magnificent destruction! My active career as a Mechwarrior/Aerospace Pilot would last about fifteen seconds, of course, but WHAT a career!

[@Alverant]

Rule of cool. That's why they exist.

[@RevokFarthis]

I know nothing of BattleTech I know nothing of Mech Warrior I know nothing of Macross I know only: Urbi, my beloved

[@Belligerent_Herald]

I’ve never been a fan of the flying mech, or the hyper mobile ninja cosplaying as a robot genre in general (see armor core, gundam). If that your thing, awesome, there’s a reason it’s popular. But I like my mechs to feel like they have mass. It has a specific role, not tank, not infantry, mech. (See Chrome hounds, mech assault)

[@randomfurrygirl548]

4th gen armored core was honestly the only game ive every played that made it *feel* like you were making a multi-ton mech move at mach speeds. You really had to get used to the controls to move effectively at all, but once you did, it's spicy. Funny enough, with how BattleMechs are piloted, they could very easily function in a similar way, especially with how jump jets work.

[@Sargonarhes]

And once again the LAM Marauder is ignored. Yes, the design does exist, do a search for it as LAM Marauder or variable glaug and you will see the terror of it. Yes, it's from a Macross game.

[@SSVNormandy2]

If it's from Macross, then it's not a 'LAM Marauder', it's a Variable Glaug, because it doesn't exist in the Battletech setting - and this video was about Battletech.

[@draco5059]

Can u do a video on the Corsair battlemech would like to see you take on ot and how everyone feels about it to

[@anja2792]

Honestly, the urban LAM if it were possible to keep the regular urby strengths, could be one of the best ideas. The main time i heard about LAMs being used was in naval boarding actions in space, so those hallways and hangar bays could have similar characteristics to the Urbies city homes.

[@cp1cupcake]

This video put me in mind of flying cars. Promised generations ago, and they have yet to enter real production. And a lot of the reasons why companies failed to produce them was because they found cheaper alternatives which fit the design, like disposable gliders attached to cars.

[@Atlas3060]

"They're coming back now" Well yes but no. The Word of Blake Spectral LAMs they did were useful to help introduce the new rules they had for LAMs when it released. The Urbie LAM won't get Total Warfare sheets released, nor will Catalyst release any other LAMs in plastic. The fans have asked multiple times during AMAs, the answer is still the same: You have the rules, there's metal minis, the old SLDF ones can be used, but the concept of the LAMs is pretty much in the dustbin of history. Unless the IlClan era pulls a fast one on us, but I don't really see that going since the Line Dev really wants to move past these things. Besides the rest of the company squeaked out the Urbie LAM for April Fool's much to the Line Dev's grimace from what I heard.

[@seanbrazell7095]

I lost faith in humanity when the navy didn't go with those robotech F14 upgrades. ☝️😮‍💨

[@spamhonx56]

I kinda like that LAMs exist in the lore, as a demonstration of specifically the fact that in battletech, some things simply cannot work. I have no wish to see them be anything other than that, however.

[@seanbigay1042]

The LAMs are one of BattleTech's biggest problems -- mainly because BT's freakish junkpiles are Macross' stars of the show, making the LAM a keystone of their mutual legal troubles.

[@TimeSweeperAdam]

Piranha should put the Urbie Lam into MWO for April Fools. It'll be as easy to dispatch as a commando caught out in the open with probably less tonnage for weapons than a flea and be virtually unusable but by god it'll be such a fun meme mech to dart around in.

[@tylerboatwright6336]

The partial wing system plus improved jump jets are a very fun combo to make anything fly

[@Duchess_Van_Hoof]

The strange design decision for the Shadowhawk LAM was the inclusion of a bomb bay. It is useless in mech mode, and a bit redundant in the fighter mode, it already has guns.

[@jehoiakimelidoronila5450]

That "LAUrby" both in thumbnail and the artwork depicted as being in service in U.N. SPACY is *CURSED IMAGE* ; and I freaking love it

[@scienceinsanity6927]

Yea, it's really good. I reached out to the artist for permission to use it because it was just to perfect.

[@jarrodbright5231]

Here I thought the development of LAMs involved Jordan Weisman watching Gundam and going "You sonovabitch I'm in" Then Bob Charette wrote up a way to make the whole thing work "in setting"

[@bombomos]

A U.N.Spacey Urbie is WILD XD

[@robkitchen5344]

AirMech??? Its called GUARDIAN MODE!!!!!

[@tigershark7155]

Somebody never used Aerospace ground attack rules in Battletech games, and it shows...

[@Yacovo]

The Lam is about a effective as the pre-Clan Invasion Combine thought Medium Mechs were. Thanks for the video.

[@weirdguy564]

A big problem with the LAM's in BattleTech has to do with the art. If you can't use the Macross designs, then you have to make your own. The problem is that making a good looking transformer is actually quite hard. If it doesn't look good, players will not want to play them.

[@Doomrider47]

14:05 New Unseen Mechs just dropped?

[@GraniteGhost778]

So hear me out, a trashcan in English-English is a dustbin. The Urbie-LAM is a flying trashcan, ie flying dustbin. The Churchill AVRE fired a petard mortar whose round was often called a flying dustbin. That's it, we need a super-heavy tank that can fire Urbanmech LAMs at the enemy!