PAC-T Testing the 124 gr. and 147 gr. Federal HST (with soft barrier)

[@colt10mmsecurity68]

I think we are splitting hairs here with all the numbers minutia. All I know is actual STREET performing data. My former LE agency employer (with 10,000 sworn LEO’s) has been issuing us the 147 HST for over a decade now and my employer as a whole has killed DOZENS of bad guys with that specific round. Also they tested barrier penetration and the 147gr didn’t deflect as much as the 124’s when striking car windshield at obtuse angles nor with safety glass on the side of vehicles. It also penetrated better through solid wood doors in testing than the 124gr. While nobody can go wrong with either weight HST, as they’re both “lethal,” I’m sticking with what I know works like a fricking BOSS and from what I’ve seen first hand on real life two-legged, bath-salt influenced zombies.

[@sdkweber]

Thanks for the extra info.

[@richardsmith4187]

You produce the most comprehensive information on the different Federal HST rounds. I use only Federal HST 124, but have a few boxes of the 147 also. Your information backs up my belief that Federal HST 124 is the absolute best and consistent round for my every day carry. I trust Federal HST with my life and never leave home without it. Thank you for extensive testing and I have subscribed.

[@sdkweber]

I am happy to hear that Richard. Thank you for watching and subscribing. We will start working on more of these PAC-T tests in the spring.

[@kevinli9035]

My lgs only have 124 +p and 147 gr…what would you think of the +p version?

[@sdkweber]

@@kevinli9035 Personally I would not hesitate to use the 124 gr. +P ammo if your pistol is rated to accept +P. Thanks for watching.

[@kirklowe5608]

The 147 used to be better. They quietly changed the design around 2021

[@sdkweber]

@@kirklowe5608 I did not know that. That is unfortunate. The Hornady XTP has also changed a number of times over the years.

[@noahnewcomer5180]

Excellent test. From the research I gathered, 124 grain is great for barrels 4” or less, 124 +p is even better for shorter barrels. 147 grain is great for barrels 4.5” or more seems to be consistent here as well!

[@kevinli9035]

Would 124 +p have more recoil than the 147 gr?

[@noahnewcomer5180]

@@kevinli9035 in terms of recoil, I’m not sure….im was talking about in terms of velocity and expansion

[@songodan45]

@@kevinli9035oh yeah, it absolutely does. The standard pressure is comparable though in both weights.

[@RangeBustersUSA]

I'm confused here. At first the author said +p 124 grain. Did the gentleman test plus p or standard 124s. Thank you

[@songodan45]

@@RangeBustersUSA here specifically I believe it was +P based on the box he showed. But honestly regular 124 is phenomenal and no need of add the recoil of the +p as it’s not that different of a performance. Better to have shot placement with follow up shots.

[@aaronneumeyer5572]

The HST is such a consistently good performer and your excellent shooting skills only enhanced it's reputation here. Nicely done!

[@sdkweber]

Thank you Aaron. I am glad you had a chance to watch this video.

[@davep5039]

@@sdkweberbarrel length for this test? Thanks

[@sdkweber]

@@davep5039 Dave this is a standard 4" bbl. on this HK VP9

[@allenbolen9705]

According to the FBI 16 inches isn’t over penetrating!

[@jason200912]

First 2 inches is actual just surface skin. Not kidding a 500 fps bb can pierce 2 inches. But the reason. They want between 12 to 18 is to take down obese people and to also do side shots that enter from the arms

[@donhunter5.56]

16 inches in calibrated gel is about 8-9 inches in actual flesh.

[@jason200912]

@@donhunter5.56 it's not. The fbi got real world results in the 1986. The man was shot by an fbi winchester silvertip 9mm from triceps just above elbow to armpit to lung and 1 or 2 inches before the heart. This was about 11 or 12 inches total penetration. Test the winchester silvertip in calibrated gel. And it stops at 11 inches of gel penetration. More accurate to meat than we would have thought. Pretty surprising

[@rtopalovich]

Gell tests are good for comparing the RELATIVE merits of bullets. The human body has different densities in differant areas affecting bullet performance and there are bones.

[@sdkweber]

I absolutely agree. You might enjoy watching this video we made that discusses this same topic: kzbin.info/www/bejne/pJiuYoKMeJxli80si=3HlyZaM99IbmGmXU Thanks for watching and posting.

[@EddyM-dx2hz]

16-18" of penetration sweet spot just my opinion when considering no bone was hit only bare gel.

[@SkunkCreekRanch]

I feel like we can get much too far into minutia. When we have ballisticians who give us a laundry list of “these are proven on the street, and my ballistic research backs it up. Pick one that works in your gun and roll on”. Anything that has ‘HST’ on the box is always on that list. 🤷🏼

[@MrEMann]

Don't you need to zero for the different bullets? If so the points for bullseye didn't mean anything. The grouping is what mattered.

[@bretkoesser]

I don't believe that it is a viable measurement to use the temporary expansion cavity for any round under 2000-2200fps range. Permanent expansion from my understanding is the only thing that differentiates handgun/subgun rounds.

[@sdkweber]

It matters where that bullet strikes. The temporary expansion cavity can cause serious damage to soft tissues like the liver. Not so much for the heart however. You might be interested in our Terminal ballistics video on blast overpressure and the importance of bullets traveling in excess of 1900 fps at the target (your 2000 fps range is pretty much spot on). Here is a link to that video kzbin.info/www/bejne/jKjbla2obc6bpZIsi=sTRRuEsp6GIS9_-I

[@N.S.56]

@@sdkweber ballistic gel is a good medium to view how bullets perform in the gel, it is not representative of how bullets will perform in living tissue especially regarding the temporary and permanent stretch cavity. Gel is useful but because a bullet causes X in gel, doesnt mean it will in living tissue. At pistol velocities, bullets damage is caused piercing and tearing tissue more than a temp stretch injuring surrounding tissue

[@ytbenavraham9553]

I picked up yesterday 147 gr yesterday 9mm

[@sdkweber]

Cool. You can't go wrong with either of the 147 gr. or 124 gr.

[@richardsmith4187]

Amazing video with in depth information and numbers to back it up. I have used many 9mm rounds as duty ammo and personal protection and having discovered Federal HST a few years back I only use HST now. I like Speer Gold Dot, but Federal HST has proven performance that I trust my life on. It's not cheap to buy, but what is your life worth ??

[@crankybuzzard6867]

have shot HSTs for a few years now. Thanks for the video!!!!

[@sdkweber]

You are welcome. I agree, the HST is a good bullet.

[@ronaldwilliams3495]

Great, and helpful info. I use Critical Defense 124gr and love it. Thank you

[@sdkweber]

Thank you Ronald.

[@jamesday7344]

Hornady doesn’t make a 124 grain critical defense, good day to you

[@Kevingrip]

I subscribed for you! Thanks for all the testing

[@sdkweber]

You are welcome. And thank you for subscribing. Take care.

[@michaelcarbis2286]

Was that first block full of air bubbles? If so could explain why the 147 went all the way through the first block. Have seen many many test with the 147 and they never went past the first block.

[@sdkweber]

Good point, some bubbles yes, but nothing too large. The exact medium/path the bullet takes does play a role.That is true in testing and in a real defense situations. Note: the same block was used with the 124 and the 147 so head-to-head, these are comparable. Thanks for watching and posting.

[@funwithballistics1016]

Marshall and Sanow have documented several shootings over the years where a jhp from a handgun did actually overpenetrate human torsos. Granted they had little energy left and didnt hit uninvolved parties to my knowledge. They also reference a study conducted by the US Army in which they found that 15 inches of gel penetration correlated with through and through torso shots on the street at a rate of 70%. They also determined 58 ft lbs of residual energy after 15 inches is enough to cause casualties. Great video! Keep em coming!

[@sdkweber]

That is very interesting. Do you know the name of the paper where they published that? I would like to read it. Thank you for posting this information and for watching.

[@sdkweber]

I found this 1992 book online. I will see if my local library can get a copy for me through InterLibrary Loan. Thanks again for the info.

[@funwithballistics1016]

@@sdkweber unfortunately no, it's mentioned briefly in their 1996 book "Street Stoppers" the rounds they've documented overpenetrating are in all 3 of their books. Of course! Really enjoying your PAC-T tests!

[@funwithballistics1016]

@@sdkweber which 1992 book?

[@sdkweber]

@@funwithballistics1016I am going to see if I can get a loan copy of "Handgun Stopping Power: The Definitive Guide" through the library.

[@MichaelCurrey]

Have you/could you see if hst 147 and it’s matching practice round do indeed have the same accuracy?

[@sdkweber]

I have not done this, but it is a good idea and should be a good test. I have the 147 HST but will need to find their 147 practice ammo (that may take some doing).

[@SNIPER_NO_SNIPING]

I’m waiting on him to take that thumb out that he for some reason places behind the slide while on the bench.

[@boostimalaka1]

My Department switched from the Federal Hydrashok 124 grain +P+ to the Winchester SXT 124 grain +P. The bullets were basically the Black Talon bullet. They were definitely an improvement. Those bullets were really sharp.

[@oneboyscout3653]

Great tests. Subbed!

[@sdkweber]

Thank you and welcome to our channel!

[@ChollaJJ]

About thirty years ago I carried the 115 gr. Corbon H P I believe rated at 1300 fps, possibly 1350 …? Do not know what it would in ballistic gel ? Very easy to trust. Of your two, I would go with the 124 gr. Also. Great information here. Interesting, the HST. Thank you 👍

[@sdkweber]

You are welcome and thanks for watching. I agree with your choice of the 124 gr., it is very good bullet. I also did a test/video of the Corbon 115 gr. DPX (no the traditional JHP) if you are interested. That video is linked here kzbin.info/www/bejne/mWemi6yYhdGjbcU

[@jerrys5764]

How long is that barrel?

[@sdkweber]

This HK VP9 has a 4.1" bbl.

[@Swampytheroot]

Amusing. I use both. I have cases of both. That 147 performance is absolutely stellar. The 124 is good, but only adequate. Nothing is going to be harmed by the 'over penetration' other than the target itself.

[@woodgrainstudios7321]

I think so too...Plus, the targets usually wear "clothes"

[@Seanedmund]

I have noticed the 147 target Ammon can sometimes cause malfunctions in my micro’s, im not sure why that is, maybe something to do with the bull nose, but my Glock and Hk run them all day. Otherwise it’s always 124 HST’s. This makes me want to try 147 hsts

[@sdkweber]

All these pistols rely on recoil to operate. Not so much that more is better but rather a certain type of recoil (that is why some shooters jam a gun by limp-wristing while shooting).. The micros are more susceptible to this and function well under specific recoil impulse. That may be why some rounds work well in your micros and others do not. The 147 HST might be worth a try. Let us know how it goes.

[@eddiearchuleta615]

Those velocities usually are from a 5 inch barrel I’m surprised you got that high fps

[@sdkweber]

Hey Eddie, you are correct. Its the polygonal rifling in the HK VP9 that provides the extra velocity. A very interesting innovation from HK some years ago.

[@Goomba21]

@@sdkweberGlock does this as well

[@sdkweber]

@@Goomba21 I did not know that. Thanks for the info!

[@AtomicStateDelivery]

​​@@sdkweber Walther as well. It's the stepped chamber along with the polygonal rifling that gives the velocity boost. IIRC Glock has polygonal rifling but no stepped chamber while HK and Walther have both. You can tell it has a stepped chamber because there will be a faint ring just below the case mouth on fired brass.

[@curtisrichey4431]

147 from a 5-5.5” barrel would seem to gain enough velocity to perform much like the 124 has in this test. I’d like to see that.

[@sdkweber]

I might have a longer barrelled 9mm for such a test. I think the 147g. is supposed to remain subsonic for use with suppressors though. Thanks for watching.

[@jamesharris184]

Very professional. You do yr homework! Americans, from my experience, r good people. U slice and dice this information like a recipe. I simply enjoy the physics and kinetics.

[@sdkweber]

Thank you James. I am glad you enjoyed our video and welcome to our channel. We have viewers from various other countries (Australia, Canada, and Ukraine). If you don't mind, what country are you watching from?

[@ilikepineapples7835]

Thanks. I been wondering about the 124 beings hoe I just got the 147. I appreciate you putting together this educational video. I'd liked to known which had more recoil...

[@sdkweber]

You are welcome. I will try to comment on recoil in future PAC-T tests. I also have a Mantis X10 which has a recoil-meter. I might be able to use that as well. Primarily I shoot 124 gr. bullets in my 9mm and have gotten used to them. I cannot recall off-hand if the 147 feels like more recoil or less.

[@guardianminifarm8005]

Well done

[@sdkweber]

Thank you once again.

[@nathanlambshead4778]

You and I have the same philosophy. I only carry 124 grain in my 9x19. To my mind it has the best balance between velocity and sectional density in a .35 caliber handgun cartridge. At the moment I am carrying 124 grn +P Gold Dot, but when I rotate these out I have a box of 124 grn +P HST waiting. Thanks for the video. What length barrel in that VP9?

[@sdkweber]

You are welcome and thanks for watching and posting. Yes, the 124 gr. strikes a fine balance. The VP9 by the way, has a 4.1" barrel.

[@nathanlambshead4778]

@@sdkweber Thank you. My CZ 75 compact has a 3.7 inch barrel, so I imagine the average velocity difference should not be more than about 30 fps less than what you got.

[@sdkweber]

@@nathanlambshead4778 Probably so. The HK VP9 tends to get a bit more velocity because of the polygonal rifling and stepped chamber. It should be pretty close though.

[@cowboywoodard2569]

Be nice to see these fired out of a 16 in.Carbine?

[@sdkweber]

I agree that would be interesting. Unfortunately I do not have a 9mm carbine. Thanks for watching and posting!

[@ahole5407]

I still carry 147 because it does things that I need it to. A more honest review would be a non +P 124gr. But hey it's a boomer review. Accuracy off a bench rest with a hand gun? That proves nothing. Shoot through a car and auto glass and see what will happen and know why the 147 is a preferred round. 16" is near textbook. Think of a grown man's chest 44" in diameter. Divide by p and you have an answer.

[@sdkweber]

Do you think an average person has a 44" DIAMETER chest. Perhaps a 44" CIRCUMFERENCE chest. Still a person's chest is not a circle, but rather ellipsoidal in shape, so 16" penetration from a frontal shot will exit. It would be best for you to get a good grasp of terminology, math, and physiology rather than just spout opinion. And why would YOU be shooting through a car and auto glass?

[@jamesprouty7792]

@@sdkweberhaha. His name says it all 😂

[@NoNo_IStay]

😅 Auto glass 😅 You know if you're IN the car you don't have to worry about that as much. More for people OUTSIDE the car 😉 think.about it

[@solarlion144]

Should have used 147+p to keep it fair

[@sdkweber]

Agreed, but I could not get it when I recorded this video. Kind of a common problem today.

[@solarlion144]

@@sdkweber yup. Online

[@landonp4726]

Which one has more recoil

[@sdkweber]

The actual recoil for the 124 gr. bullet is 5.1 ft lbs of energy while the 147 gr. is 4.93 ft. lbs. (calculated using ShootersCalculator.com). The real question I think is perceived recoil and unfortunately, I did not make note of that. In the 2024 PAC-T videos starting soon, I am including a recoil section as part of my review. Thanks for watching.

[@josephpacchetti5997]

Too bad Federal discontinued the 147gr +P HST.

[@flyingplumber226]

Thats because it performs the worst out of the 4 loadings they offer with HST.

[@brucecook502]

Which had more recoil?

[@sdkweber]

Hey Bruce, frankly I do not recall which one had more felt recoil. Of course the numbers will tell you the official or actual recoil but I suspect you are interested in the felt recoil. Sorry I cannot answer more definitely.

[@007Chancellor]

I can't find where you've ever tested the 230gr .45acp HST from Federal. Am I missing it?

[@sdkweber]

I just checked my records and I have not tested the 230 gr. HST in .45 ACP. I have tested the Golden Saber, Gold Dot, Hydra-Shok etc but not the HST. I might have to give that one a try in the my 45.

[@007Chancellor]

@@sdkweber I think you'll find it a superior round. It's all I'll carry. I'm subbing so I can watch for you to test it. 👍

[@sdkweber]

@@007ChancellorI will need to order in some of these bullets and if I can get them before it gets cold, I can test them yet this year. I can't shoot the gel blocks and run the test if the temperatures are below 50° F as the results are not reliable. Thanks for subscribing. Worst case, we test them next spring but you will probably find lots of other videos to watch on our channel between now and then anyway.

[@007Chancellor]

@@sdkweber I sure am. Some really good content sir.

[@sdkweber]

@@007Chancellor Thank you.

[@deenyc1049]

I'd love to see this test with a short barrel carry gun.

[@sdkweber]

Good idea. I do use my HK VP9 for EDC. Are you thinking of something with an even shorter barrel?

[@deenyc1049]

@@sdkweber Subcompact, maybe even microcompact. See if what they say about 147 grain being too slow for 3 or 4" barrels is true or not.

[@sdkweber]

@@deenyc1049 I understand and that sounds like an interesting test. The pistol I used in this test has a 4.09" barrel. I do not have another with a 3" barrel. I will see if someone I know around here has a 3" bbl. 9mm pistol I could use for the test.

[@deenyc1049]

@@sdkweber I’m glad I stumbled onto this channel, I’ll be binging your videos.

[@sdkweber]

@@deenyc1049 Cool, thanks DeeNYC

[@jason200912]

Most jmportant measurement us the diameter

[@CampDavid54]

Clip your nails

[@N.S.56]

is that FBI spec ordinance gel or clear gel?

[@sdkweber]

This is synthetic gel that follows NATO specifications.