Sea Druid Sucks in D&D 2024 Player's Handbook!

[@PackTactics]

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[@LucanVaris]

Bonus points for the fact that you can gain flight from going with a specific race, thus further neutralizing the value of the level 10 feature. It also doesn't help that properly kiting enemies via flying around (unless you're sticking relatively close to the ground) negates the knockback bonus of your Emanation, since you're usually not gonna want to get close enough to make use of it. As for the level 6 feature, the main benefit you can get (Swim Speed) can be acquired by simply Wild Shaping into a Dolphin or something. And that's only necessary *_IF_* you're in an aquatic campaign. All in all, this is one of the subclasses of 2024.

[@tszlonglam1738]

You look great in the thumbnail, almost failed my wisdom save and got charmed

[@40Found]

>push ability to keep enemies away >must stand directly next to them for half a chance it will do anything

[@peon9584]

Since it says push up to 15ft, you can choose to push 5ft or 0ft. That's still not good, I just pointed it out bc I wanted to be the well akshually guy today.

[@PackTactics]

If it did half damage and effected more creatures then it would have been decent. But also this feature could have been more interesting on... Idk... A Barbarian where you just ram into creatures and move them and if you manage to ram a creature into another creature, that's more damage.

[@TheNoMoreGamer]

@@PackTacticsfunny enough too the world tree would have been better on Druid. Much better flavor

[@inkubus6192]

@@TheNoMoreGamer That’s brilliant! Give us Path of the Storming Sea and Circle of the World Tree!

[@Funkin_Disher]

Like a new and improved storm herald!

[@Canadian_Princess]

I have seen this video and now I'm going to watch Treantmonk's video on this.

[@lanadris]

just watched treantmonks and came looking for this

[@sufferinsuccotash8981]

​@@lanadrislol me too

[@patrickscannell6370]

Correction to the spell list critique: the point of this is not that they are on the spell list, but that they are always prepared. Thats a very different in-game benefit.

[@i3eaniie602]

Hearing kobold break character for a sec during the fish sticks joke was the cherry on top 😭

[@PackTactics]

That's Gator.

[@hkaden6815]

Playing a lizardfolk sea Druid tank and honestly it’s fun asf. High con, farmer for wis/con and the feat for +2 hp, primal savagery for a melee cantrip that scales good unlike shillelagh and does a d10 damage, unarmored defense and a bonus action attack from lizardfolk, and a shield . Not even level 10 so I’m not flying yet and I’m basically as tanky as the barbarian with a higher AC, healing spells, and just spells in general. Don’t really mind that it’s not optimal, it’s still really fun (though the cantrip and race being from 2014 means that many DMs might not allow it).

[@Rockclimbingbeta]

@@hkaden6815 i think playing it as a tank is the ideal way to go! See my build above, and it's 2024 only

[@samfish2550]

Not playing one yet but I plan to use the non-concentration fly to become a giant flying enemy crab. Everyone gangsta till the crab floats.

[@Rat_McPissum]

I mean 3/4 d6 is great damage in tier 1 on top of shillelagh. It falls off by tier 2 but you’re still a full casting Druid that will eventually get concentration free flight, 3 resistances, and a potential push every turn. If you play a gish that transitions into a caster with good defenses I really don’t think this is a poor subclass at all 🤷‍♀️

[@markhumphries6020]

I actually wanted to play a warden druid that does melee with shillelagh and this class goes well with that plan. So I liked it. We have the pure melee subclass in moon. We have the pure caster in land. We have support in stars. So a kinda gish subclass fits in nicely.

[@Rockclimbingbeta]

I've been playing a Sea Druid tank in a short "Delicious in Dungeon" Campaign using PHB 2024 rules only. He's an old gnome dungeon hydrologist trying to figure out the cycles of water, life and death in the dungeon, and he gets real sweaty when he activates his wrath of the sea. Flavor aside, it's been strong. Take magic initiate from sage for shield/true strike, wear half plate and a shield and play a tank with amazing mental saves(gnome - or go dwarf for HP). With Warcaster at level 4, wrath of the sea does 4d6 on a hit, and if you drop a spike growth(15 more damage), you deal 29 average damage on the first turn. If they walk back to you(15 dmg) and then you truestrike and bump them out again - that's 36.5 avg damage. On top of that, with shield you have 25 AC (i had a cloak of protection by lvl 4.) At 5 we get to play with conjure animals while tanking if it seems more optimal than a spike growth strat. The others in the group were an archfey warlock using repelling and hideous laughter/hold person for control, and an elements monk grappling at range in the spike growth. We did 4 deadly encounters in a row(3300xp at 5th) from the new 2024 DMG calculator and didn't need a short rest. Does their lvl 6 feature suck? absolutely, but 10 feet will allow you to thorn whip them after you knocked them back 15 feet the previous turn, and still knock them back again this turn. Would have been nice if it could target a second creature here... or anything fun. If you don't look at the ability as a shitty way to be a caster and get monsters away from you so they don't hurt you and play a control DPR tank instead, this subclass is fantastic. If you want a "stay out of melee" control classic druid... play land, a melee dpr wildshaper play moon, and a blaster/healer controller play stars. I'm having a blast on the sea druid though.

[@Rockclimbingbeta]

Honestly, I think the level 6 feature could be: when a creature enters your emanation, you may take a reaction to activate your knockback/damage effect. You can do this wisdom mod times per day. And still keep the 10ft and swim speed.

[@chriscampion6721]

Level 6 feature pairs really well with reach if you can get that. I got it via Bug Bear long limbed feature. Spin up a concentration spell and the WoS turn one booming blade the next. If you can get shillelagh on ahead it's even better. Been very successful with this build playing a no punch pulled under mountain campaign. I really don't understand the complaints.

[@lmt831]

I’d love to see an updated warlock subclasses video, to see where they rank against subclasses that haven’t been updated yet. Would love to see what you think on the new warlocks

[@ggfrt96]

1:37 I play with a Storm cleric. i told all full casters that if they have a shot and I'm in the way: take the shot. I'm a barbarian rogue multiclass. ill have the hp for it AND in several more levels I'll have evasion... ive taken a couple of full damage lightning bolt from him

[@Kennedy00Louis]

well, eventually, (or maybe more like hopefully) the combo is gonna payoff very neatly and it will be fun as heck, actual "This is fine" meme. I did that but in reverse, I was the evocation wizard.

[@0_Body]

2014 Warlock: The Fathomless Gift of the Sea Also, at 1st level, you gain a swimming speed of 40 feet and can breathe underwater. 2024: You get this at 3rd level instead, but that still means you can have a superior mechanical setup Still, play what you want, but oof WOTC

[@schwann145]

It's this kind of thing that shows backwards compatibility never truly works.

[@Elkadetodd]

"Oh the martial is in the way" Yeah, that's why I have heals too.

[@PackTactics]

🐊They're always in the way! It's so annoying and I have to take care of them all the time! Ugh! 🐊

[@daikatarokamegawa542]

Virgin sea druid: I get a 30' (most of the time) swimming speed at lvl6! Chad Fathomless Warlock: I get 40' AND water breathing AND other cool stuff at lvl1...

[@fgregerfeaxcwfeffece]

Man this is a joke.

[@LucanVaris]

Chad Druidinski: "Hey, Sea Druid. You know you can just... Wild Shape into a Dolphin, right?"

[@ericpeterson8732]

Not with 2024 rules. Fathomless Warlock gets subclass features at level 3. But yeah, it's still better.

[@daikatarokamegawa542]

@ericpeterson8732 Nope. RAW 5.24e only affects the subclasses written explicitly in the 2024 PHB. Anything not in there can be used as is.

[@Anything_Random]

@@daikatarokamegawa542 Nope. If you're playing by 2024 rules then RAW you have to use 2024 base classes (except Artificer), which all specify that they gain subclasses at level 3. All legacy subclasses get any pre-level 3 features only at level 3. It was specified by Jeremy Crawford and it's on DNDBeyond.

[@InsightCheck]

Lol you beat me to it. I've been working on a video about just how underwhelming this subclass is.

[@PackTactics]

It really sucks.

[@xiongray]

Can't wait to watch yours too

[@danielbarnes1241]

We will be watching 😊

[@007ohboy]

​@@PackTacticstreant got you both on this

[@chriscampion6721]

Fr ​@@007ohboy

[@DarkShadowalker]

I miss older versions of Lightning Bolt having more than one shape to choose from when you cast it.

[@floofzykitty5072]

This subclass would be so much better if the Emanation was like the size of Spirit Guardians. I wouldn't even mind it being a Constitution saving throw if the emanation wasn't so tiny. It seems they designed it so that you use it alongside Wildshape, even though that would chew through your uses incredibly quickly because they both use it. The level 6 feature basically ends up just being a quality of life addition because all it does is it makes the feature go from niche to useable.

[@KuaEtus]

Sad 🐊 mermaid. (But actually hiped 🐊 because I'm about to go to a ToTo concert, i just wanted to share it, I'm really happy 😊)

[@duhg599]

Thanks for the video. I'd like to make some counterpoints that I hope will be generally helpful. 7:44. "I don't know what flying has to do with the sea..." I'm going to assume that you're not being sarcastic here. Since the class feature is called Stormborn, it's alluding to the image of a storm-tossed sea with fierce winds whipping up sea spray. Also, it can get really windy out on the ocean. So a Circle of the Sea druid is clearly using these winds to fly. 7:51. "I don't care about the sea theme anymore." That's too bad. It's a cool theme with lots of creative potential. If you don't mind my asking, what kind of things do you like to do during a game? What elements of the game do you enjoy? I'm new here, so I'm not familiar with how you like to play D&D. 8:51. "But [Circle of Stars druids] have the advantage because they can lay prone in the sky because of hover. So that means that all ranged attacks have disadvantage." Players, just so you know, this is an exploitation of the rules, and one which your DM may refute. I certainly would. Just because something like this doesn't break any rules doesn't mean it has to be allowed, largely because it doesn't make any sense within the context of the game's narrative. If someone is up in the air and exposed, it doesn't matter if their body is orientated vertically or horizontally - they're still up in the air and exposed. So if a player attempted to claim that ranged attacks against their character have Disadvantage because they're laying prone while hovering in the air and the DM's response is something along the lines of, "That's nonsense. We're not using that," I'd encourage that player to please respect their DM's ruling and carry on.

[@PackTactics]

7:44 - It was purely a jab because I'm not happy with the 3 other features I got. It's not that deep. 7:51 - Role playing and dungeon crawls is what I love. I don't think much about the themes, I think more about my character and flavor the subclass themes around the character. I view flavor as free in tabletop games. Ofc it's to a point but it's incredibly flexible because it takes place in our minds. That's one of the best parts about tabletop games, I love it. 8:51 - That's not an exploit. The text is underlined in 8:56 too . It's ok that you personally don't like it and people ban it but you can't call it an exploit when it's backed by the rules. I ban Nystal's magic aura because I don't like it, using Nystal's magic aura to your advantage is not an exploit. It's just an absurdly broken spell. You can absolutely say "That's nonsense. We're not using that," that's fine. No problem. But don't call it an exploit when it's back by the rules. WOTC haven't changed this in 10 years. They know you can do this.

[@Shadowdweller-x3s]

With all due respect, this video demonstrates a pretty poor grasp of D&D strategy and tactics. * A 15-foot push effect (Wrath of the Sea) is quite powerful on a class that specializes in battlefield control. Though, yes, the Con save means a low success rate. Acts as a force multiplier for spells such as Moonbeam, Conjure Elemental, Spike Growth, Wall of Thorns, Wall of Fire, Sleet Storm, Conjure Woodland Beings... As this ability uses a bonus action and does NOT require a spell slot, it can be freely paired with normal spellcasting. * Shatter is a nearly worthless spell choice. It deals no more damage than an upcast Thunderwave, trading a push effect for a very slightly better area and the ability to cast from range. At best the spell retains relevance for about two character levels. * Lightning bolt, while mostly inferior to fireball, is still a very effective and efficient blasting spell due to high base damage. It performs better than fireball in some cases, such as when enemies are mixed in with allies; or when fighting groups of enemies down narrow corridors. Wrath of the Sea can, once again, assist with lining enemies up.

[@lanadris]

i have run some damage calcs on the claim of 7dpr on wrath of the sea claim and found that at low levels it's extremely good, and at high levels it's much less impactful but still decent damage. considering it's a ba. + you get flight + 3 resistances it's pretty good all things considered i mean it's almost a better 3rd level fly spell at the cost of a 1st level slot

[@lanadris]

can add more info on the calcs when i get home, i did them on my phone and it's easier to write out on a laptop

[@crschoen123]

Wreath of the sea looks more like a defensive spell where you have it up the whole fight and if a creature comes within melee you can possibly push them out. But since you have to wait for your turn it's pretty bad even at that

[@zyfigamer]

Looking good, Kobold!

[@PackTactics]

Thank you! 🐊

[@jaredcarlyle4398]

I’m currently playing a level 11 Sea Druid, we started at level 10 so I started with the flight and missed the lower level features. Feels fun, definitely not the best, but flying around with concentration spells going pretty much every combat is satisfying. Can’t wait till the level 14 ability to help my landlocked paladin or monk get into combat or let my ranger stay out of danger. You also keep your armour class while flying and can still cast new spells unlike the moon Druid.

[@AtelierGod]

I do understand why the expanded spell list is what it is, most if not all sea and water spells already are on the Druid spell list, so you’ll have to do with what you’ve got. Focusing to much on only having spells from outside the class will eventually limit what options you can make.

[@lanadris]

Okay I did the math on Wrath of the Sea, here's what i found: Tier 1 (Levels 3~4): 6.04 AVG DPR | 6.80% of AVG Max health Done | 49% Chance Tier 2 (Levels 5~10): 8.50 AVG DPR | 5.20% of AVG Max Enemy health | 54% Chance Tier 3 (Levels 11~13): 9.92 AVG DPR | 4.50% of AVG Max Enemy health | 57% Chance Tier 3 (Levels 14~16): - Seperated because at LvL 14 we get oceanic gift to double damage 19.37 AVG DPR | 6.99% of AVG Max Enemy health | Fail: 20% Half-Damage (5d6): 50% Full (10d6): 31% Tier 4 (Levels 17~20): 18.64 AVG DPR | 5.19% of AVG Max Enemy health | Fail: 22% Half-Damage (5d6): 50% Full-Damage (10d6): 28%

[@lanadris]

Here is the process andthe assumptions i made, mostly harsh assumptions so this damage will probably be higher: I downloaded all the monsters from the core books and supplments, i then grouped them by CR and Averaged their HP's and CON scores: CR : CON Table 0: 10 | 0.125: 11 | 0.25: 12 | 0.5: 12 | 1: 13 | 2: 14 | 3: 15 | 4: 15 | 5: 16 | 6: 16 | 7: 17 | 8: 17 | 9: 18 | 10: 18 | 11: 19 | 12: 18 | 13: 19 | 14: 20 | 15: 20 | 16: 21 | 17: 20 | 18: 19 | 19: 22 | 20: 23 | 21: 22 | 22: 24 | 23: 26 | 24: 26 | 25: 26 | 26: 28 | 27: 29 | 28: 27 | 30: 30 From here i made a table to record the players stats per level assuming no magic items to increase Save DC or damage Lvl 1~3: 17 Wis - DC 13 Save - 3d6 Lvl 4: 18 Wis - DC 14 Save - 4d6 Lvl 5~7: 18 Wis - DC 15 Save - 4d6 Lvl 8: 20 Wis - DC 16 Save - 5d6 Lvl 9~12: 20 Wis - DC 17 Save - 5d6 Lvl 13: 20 Wis - DC 18 Save - 5d6 Lvl 14~16: 20 Wis - DC 18 Save - 5d6 x 2 Lvl 17~20: 20 Wis - DC 19 Save - 5d6 x 2

[@lanadris]

Xanathar's has this table to tell help you encounter balance for solo monsters: (normally you can expect to be fighting multiple enemes even during boss battles so these CR's will be harsh) Solo Monster Challenge Rating: 1st Level: CR 2 (Party of 6), CR 2 (Party of 5), CR 1 (Party of 4) 2nd Level: CR 4 (Party of 6), CR 3 (Party of 5), CR 2 (Party of 4) 3rd Level: CR 5 (Party of 6), CR 4 (Party of 5), CR 3 (Party of 4) 4th Level: CR 6 (Party of 6), CR 5 (Party of 5), CR 4 (Party of 4) 5th Level: CR 9 (Party of 6), CR 8 (Party of 5), CR 7 (Party of 4) 6th Level: CR 10 (Party of 6), CR 9 (Party of 5), CR 8 (Party of 4) 7th Level: CR 11 (Party of 6), CR 10 (Party of 5), CR 9 (Party of 4) 8th Level: CR 12 (Party of 6), CR 11 (Party of 5), CR 10 (Party of 4) 9th Level: CR 13 (Party of 6), CR 12 (Party of 5), CR 11 (Party of 4) 10th Level: CR 14 (Party of 6), CR 13 (Party of 5), CR 12 (Party of 4) 11th Level: CR 15 (Party of 6), CR 14 (Party of 5), CR 13 (Party of 4) 12th Level: CR 17 (Party of 6), CR 16 (Party of 5), CR 15 (Party of 4) 13th Level: CR 18 (Party of 6), CR 17 (Party of 5), CR 16 (Party of 4) 14th Level: CR 19 (Party of 6), CR 18 (Party of 5), CR 17 (Party of 4) 15th Level: CR 20 (Party of 6), CR 19 (Party of 5), CR 18 (Party of 4) 16th Level: CR 21 (Party of 6), CR 20 (Party of 5), CR 19 (Party of 4) 17th Level: CR 22 (Party of 6), CR 21 (Party of 5), CR 20 (Party of 4) 18th Level: CR 22 (Party of 6), CR 21 (Party of 5), CR 20 (Party of 4) 19th Level: CR 23 (Party of 6), CR 22 (Party of 5), CR 21 (Party of 4) 20th Level: CR 24 (Party of 6), CR 23 (Party of 5), CR 22 (Party of 4)

[@lanadris]

"For a more perilous battle, match up the characters with a legendary creature whose challenge rating is 1 or 2 higher than optimal. For an easy fight, use a legendary creature whose challenge rating is 3 or more lower than the challenge rating for an optimal encounter" I chose to Make it so each Character level had to fight the CR's for a party of 4 up to (the CR's for a party of 6) + 2 here's that table: 3rd Level: Min CR 3, Max CR 7 4th Level: Min CR 4, Max CR 8 5th Level: Min CR 7, Max CR 11 6th Level: Min CR 8, Max CR 12 7th Level: Min CR 9, Max CR 13 8th Level: Min CR 10, Max CR 14 9th Level: Min CR 11, Max CR 15 10th Level: Min CR 12, Max CR 16 11th Level: Min CR 13, Max CR 17 12th Level: Min CR 15, Max CR 19 13th Level: Min CR 16, Max CR 20 14th Level: Min CR 17, Max CR 21 15th Level: Min CR 18, Max CR 22 16th Level: Min CR 19, Max CR 23 17th Level: Min CR 20, Max CR 24 18th Level: Min CR 20, Max CR 24 19th Level: Min CR 21, Max CR 25 20th Level: Min CR 22, Max CR 26

[@lanadris]

Will come back and finish typing later

[@lanadris]

damage was calculated using this formula: Damage Average(e.g 3d6 = 10.5) * (Success Chance = (Save DC-ConMod-1) / 20) i ran that for each level against the range minCR:maxCR inclusive e.g for LvL 3 - 17 WIS - 13 Spell DC - 3d6 = 10.5 Damage I had : CR LvL 3 DPR 3 5.25 4 5.25 5 4.73 6 4.73 7 4.73 repeated for all levels and organised into tiers

[@elmsigreen]

They should replace one of the 1st level spells on the spell list with Armor of Agathys. The new version of it is very cool. The problem is that Wrath of the Sea also costs a Bonus action.

[@PackTactics]

That could help. That's not a bad idea.

[@samfish2550]

Hear me out. Use either polymorph or wild shape to become a giant crab. Then you are a giant flying enemy crab. Enough said, best subclass non-subjectively.

[@LocalMaple]

4:31 I would homebrew this to hit all selected targets within range. So if you want to expend 1 Wild Shapes, you can find a Huge creature and increase your footprint. If Sword Burst and other Cantrips can scale better and be a free AOE, why is a Bonus Action Limited Resource worse? 6:01 My homebrew now makes this decent. 10’ range to hit all enemies for potential damage and pushing.

[@joshmargolis1424]

A cool fix for making lighting bolt better would be having it fork out a bit but honestly the real change should be doubling it’s range so that lightning bolt doubles as a sniping option

[@Funkin_Disher]

Or letting it bounce

[@KingSparda]

If you got half cover from the water at level 3, and at level 6, allies within the emination benefit from your emanation if they start their turn in your emanation until the beginng of their next turn. That way they get half cover, and a swim speed, meaning they dont fight at disadvantage underwater with melee weapon attacks, then it would make it pretty decent. Then at 14, party wide flight and resistances if they stay close enough to the druid that the druid can move them into the emanation. And its not too broken sincw enemies can push people around, meaning they may fall/lose resistances at the beginning of thwir next turn if the druid has to choose who to save. Damage still sucks, but then it becomes about defense and utility mostly with a rider of damage. I think thatd make it pretty decent.

[@nickn1549]

Does anyone have a link to the flying and dropping prone video? I swear I watched it once, but now I cant find it

[@couchcommander5280]

The way that gator giggled during the fishstick setup is priceless

[@williamgordon5443]

Part of me wants to correct you on your spelling of fishstick but I also don't want to be targeted for anything

[@Funkin_Disher]

First sentence in and i already disagree haha. Storm sorcerer, tempest cleric, fathomless warlock, coast land druid, hell even the storm barbarian and various aquatic race options. We have *absolutely* seen this before!

[@cyruscrompton8221]

Sea druid is a new subclass to 2024, not the theming you silly goose

[@nicolasv6031]

what if the lvl 3 emanation was 10ft, and lvl 6 increased it to 15ft, and you can use it as a Reaction to a creature entering the emanation? along with half damage on a failed save?

[@TomSmith-ll2lp]

I wanna be where the kobolds are! I wanna see, wanna see them optimizing! Ganging up on foes with, what do they call it? Pack Tactics! And I wanna know what the kobolds know! Ask them my questions and get some answers! What’s an Eldritch Knight, and are they, what’s that word again? Good! Up where they walk, Up where they run, Up where they abuse Pack Tactics when not in the sun! Optimizing, wish I could be, Part of their world!

[@DramakilzU]

Really disappointed that you don’t deal half damage when an enemy succeeds, considering you can deal up to 5d8 on a failure. A simple homebrew that I would allow should someone pick this subclass. I would also buff the range by 5 feet (10 feet at level 3 and 15 feet at level 6).

[@gammalolman580]

I remain shocked that the swim speed is a 6th level feature. That's a core part of the theme for water stuff that you'll probably want to pick at character creation if you know you need it. Level 6 is super late for that. I guess this subclass isn't terrible if you begin at 10th level but like. Why does this subclass begin getting functional features just at level 10? Anyways am eager to see the moon druid. The starry wisp cantrip is a Llama spit.

[@SteveAkaDarktimes]

its generally a bit of a problem with DnD that most classes feel incomplete until the mid levels. there's a reason why most groups skip to level 3.

[@gammalolman580]

​@@SteveAkaDarktimeswhile this is true, most classes and subclasses at least get coolish stuff at level 3 to begin being their own thing. This subclass doesn't, and its big thematic thing only comes up, again, at level 6. Like imagine if Warlock invocations only appeared at level 5. That's how this feels.

[@Pinstar]

I dub thee "Aqua Ma'am" :)

[@snoochieboochies2011]

May lay.

[@SarJulem]

(To the tune of part of your world) Look at my gear isn't it sweet. Don't you think the wizard's spellbook will never be complete. Don't you know that I'm a (ko)bold, a bold that has, many things. Look at my trove knickknacks untold, how many stuff can a bag of holding hold. Emptying it here you'd think. Sure, he's hoarding too many things. I've got s'plosives and pistols aplenty. I've got stacks of scrolls of fireballs. Wanna blow stuff up? I've got TNT. But who cares? No big deal... Hoard's too small!

[@Billchu13]

Love the thumbnail

[@SamLabbato]

it's CRAZY that you don't get the swim speed off rip. I'm surprised they didn't do something more experimental or out there like changing what CR or type of creatures the druid could wild shape into. imagine you get a huge power spike, but only in the water? i guess they wanted neutral abilities that were just themed after the ocean since most campaigns hardly take place at sea or underwater, but I've always wanted to do an atlantis game, and if this was a good subclass, then I definitely would've added it to my list

[@nathanlamberth7631]

If you’re not a gay fish, are you a gay lizard?

[@dew-it8744]

It’s also insanely funny how booming blade can actually be chosen for repelling blast and is just straight better than their main feature

[@SebastianAMP]

Lol, hadn't even thought of that as an option but you're absolutely right.

[@genrepunk]

The possibility of Wrath of the Sea forced movement to line up a Lightning Bolt shot isn't the worst. It's not great, but Lightning Bolt is slightly better with Wrath of the Sea and vice versa.

[@valhallanknight5789]

I will probably homebrew the 3 and six features into one feature, then come up with a new feature at level 6 if anyone at my table wants to play Sea Druid. Could have been decent if not for strange, drawn out subclass choices...

[@captaindred342]

One of the new characters in my game is a sea elf. They didn't really like sea druid, so they've multiclassed as a barbarian zealot/sea druid. I think that makes the emenation more useful, since they're a martial class that likes to get in close and push people around amd chase them down. They probably won't take more than 3 or 5 levels of druid. Nothing in the class appeals to them between level 3 and 14 lol. If it turns out to be useless maybe I'll let them respect later, to tempest cleric or storm sorc or something. Having a few wildshapes and the option to burn them for wrath of the sea seems like it should be really effin cool on a Malenti Barbarian. I'll see how this works in our game I guess. The subclass seems weak on its own, and not a whole lot other druids can't already do. a duration that matches rage and gives another use for bonus action looks like nice synergy tho.

[@_mosscat]

That fly speed is nice but it's really sad when you compare it to the stars druid, who also gets a fly speed in addition to a concentration boost, and cosmic omen. They really should have reworked the mist aura into something else. Maybe it's larger, difficult terrain for your enemies, and you can do a bonus action mini-call lightning instead? The whole theme seems to be more storm than sea anyway.

[@hansmuller8762]

Important to hover flight crawling is not flying as such a prone hovering creature is stuck unless they pay the movement cost.

[@pedrostormrage]

1:46 "You can then give them Goodberries flavored like fish sticks" You mean snozzberries (I'm not even kidding: apparently they're supposed to be d-flavored)? 🍇

[@firebirdstark]

I’m here for the thumbnail

[@SilverFoxR]

I feel like, more than anything, their main feature feels more defensive at the beginning than offensive. Also, I suppose it could have some synergy with Ray of Frost's movement reduction as well. Enemy gets too close, blast them back with your bonus action, main action Ray of Frost, then step back a little bit and if all the saves go through, they're not catching up to you. It'd be pretty RNG if it all works, but that's something at least.

[@reesebenson3215]

I actually really liked it before the changes. I perfered that it didnt take a bonus action even if it was technically worse. I wish they had just changed it to have on save and kept every thing else.

[@shotgunridersweden]

Flyby with owl wildshape makes it less awful

[@ComicaPaloozaStudios]

On a wholly subjective take, every subclass gets a nice half-page art to show off what they may look like, but the Sea Druid is just unappealing and ugly, like even not looking at the features, it does not inspire confidence.

[@trckstr2888]

I’m playing a Sea Druid right now and I’m having a blast with it, massive L take

[@PackTactics]

I'm glad you're having fun but it doesn't change my opinion. I can have fun with this too because this is a Druid and I can still do Druid things.

[@Canadian_Princess]

@@PackTactics What would change your opinion?

[@nacholord2328]

​@@Canadian_Princess"subclass sucks" "what would change your opinion?" Kobold's opinion would be different if the subclass didn't suck.

[@LadyTsunade777]

I will forever be upset that Sea Sorcerer was dropped. I really liked a lot of what it had. Sea Druid on the other hand, just looks _so bad_ in so many ways.

[@Metalchefkiwi]

It manifests as cranberry juice lol

[@daikatarokamegawa542]

10/10 thumbnail

[@Coid]

Wrath of the Sea seems like it's begging for a Spirit Guardians treatment. 10' or 15' range, half damage on successful save, maybe even automatically effects any hostile creature or creatures you designate or any creature you don't designate as safe.

[@margaretmyklebust2577]

World Anvil rocks!

[@CivilWarMan]

I feel like Circle of the Sea would be better if it were designed for a martial character, like making it an Oath of Storms Paladin subclass.

[@armokil]

I’ve already found that just going tempest cleric with spirit guardians does the same job but 20 times better.

[@SteveAkaDarktimes]

Storm Sorcerer if you like the flying and the damage.

[@hauntedxxshadow]

damn that emanation shoulda been 15feet at level 3 and the 6 feature should just be something different keep the swim speed though, maybe instead they should get when they're in water they have a power that does the new conjure animals effect but not require concentration

[@under9081]

Are you gonna talk about the new Conjure Animals sometime? I think it definitely looks worse than the old one but, honestly, it kinda reminds me a bit of Spirit Guardians which is a solid spell, so maybe it's still worth taking?

[@PackTactics]

I have several times. I'm not going to make a stand alone video anytime soon. Sorry. CA is still good btw, you still pick it.

[@under9081]

@PackTactics Oh nice! Yeah I figured it would still be good. Not getting damage on a failed save sucks though, but that's an easy homebrew to ask the DM for and not unreasonable if you ask me. I also like how the wording on it kind of ensures you can get two activations in a round - one when you move the pack into them, and another when they try to move out (if they're within 5ft of it then they trigger it when moving away because they "enter a space within 10ft of the pack").

[@Newtons-Fourth-Law]

It’s decent if you make a melee Druid

[@Kargoneth]

Lightning Bolt should either have a width of 10 feet, have a range of 240 feet, or deal 12d6 damage on a failed saving throw.

[@Kargoneth]

The Dexterity saving throw DC is increased by 1 for each slot level above 3rd. and the range is increased by 20 feet for each slot level above 3rd.

[@Itachi45481]

Wow I didn’t know about the 5ft at lvl 3 and the 10th level just does that woah that was so sucky

[@sharktos3218]

I love when my subclass is worse than having none because at least then you don't get baited into spending your resources on it

[@epicman2000]

Im going to be honest I don't think you gave this subclass a fair shake. You failed to mention very key things in order to make the subclass seem worse. 1. It always has those spells prepared. So yes while any druid CAN have those spells. A sea druid doesn't have to prepare them ao they can ALWAYS use them. 2. As lack luster as that aura is. You only talk about druids as if they're going to be a backline caster. Druids can do melee without wildshape and just because that isn't youre play style doesn't mean it should be ignored. So while I do like you're video and this is a pretty mid subclass. I do think you you missed key information that makes it seem worse than it is.

[@PackTactics]

1. When you know for a fact that you're going to do something at sea, you 100% prepare Water breathing and Control Water before going to sea. No way are you going out there without those spells prepared. The whole party will yell at you if they find out you didn't prepare them. I personally would probably rip out my horns. 2. They're incredibly bad at it if you do the math for it because of damage dealt vs damage taken. We're talking about 7 extra dpr to a single target that works 50% of the time here with 18 wisdom. It's not pretty mid, it's pretty bad.

[@cherry_buzzsaw]

What if sea druid would get 14th feature at 6 level, but without duplicate option, AND in addition to actual 6th level feature? And on 14th sea druid would get duplicate, or maybe even quadruplicate, back again? Maybe little nerf on 10 level, that would grant flight speed only if druid use the feature in himself. Is it overpowered? Will it make Kobolt to eat enough fish sticks?

[@Silverythoughts]

How would you tweak this to be decent? I've got a player just turned level 3 and taking sea druid...and I'm worried they're gonna feel let down. increase the initial range to 10 ft? half damage on a save?

[@Shadeless8]

I say make the range 15ft like most Subclass features get and half on a save.

[@Silverythoughts]

@Shadeless8 what about at level 6 then?

[@rafepisarik5967]

I’d make the initial range 10 feet (this is a big buff since you can now activate it without risking an opportunity attack), half damage on save, and I’d move the swim speed down to level 3 as well because what do you mean a level 5 Sea Druid can’t swim?? For level 6 I’d increase the range to 20 ft and maybe increase the knockback or damage as well? And this one isn’t necessary but I kinda want to add a level 14 feature where you can activate your wrath as a reaction when someone enters it. I like the flavor of having a raging storm around you so strong that people can't even enter it. Maybe it's even half cover but that might be a bit much.

[@guardiantree8879]

Bumping up your ac when on water or the ground might be a good additional feature, treating it as half cover.

[@James-kv3ll]

It’s undercooked but with I don’t think the concept of the features is bad. Just need to be buffed to be decent features. Except the Level 6 feature. That one is insulting. WotC loves to do that. Like with Gravity Wizard, Glory Paladin, Dance Bard, or most Ranger subclasses. I don’t know why they think players don’t want powerful subclasses that are also thematically cool. Wrath of the Sea is thematically awesome, you’re water bending while doing other stuff, but they didn’t let it be powerful.

[@aurtosebaelheim5942]

I get the idea of it being for a druid who doesn't care about Wild Shape but expects to be forced into melee. I think a "get off me so I can cast" ability is workable, but this ain't it chief. If I had to keep to concept and come up with something mechanically unique (and, as an added challenge, keep the range too), I'd go with something like: - Creatures of your choice treat the area as difficult terrain (essentially putting you 5/10ft. farther away from melee enemies) - As a reaction when a creature attempts to enter the area you may force them to make a Str save, if the save fails they cannot move any closer to you until the start of your next turn (additional reactive anti-melee protection) - As a bonus action, you may force a number of creatures in the area equal to your Wis mod to make a Str save, on a failure they take 1d6 cold damage and are pushed up to 15ft. A creature in water may instead choose to be moved its full speed in a direction of your choice, this movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity - lots going on here, so lets break it down further: Firstly, it's better against weak, swarming enemies and it has a better chance of actually landing against such targets. The damage never mattered, its only use was as a 'get off me' tool and this does that better. Secondly, the lower damage is a buff - having allies deliberately fail their saves for pinball strategies is less painful now. Thirdly, you get a swim speed, so the "move a creature its swim speed in a direction of your choice" becomes a bonus-action straight-line move for the low cost of 1d6 damage whenever you're underwater - jet about like a squid. It also opens up party synergies if you can get more swim speeds on people and even just fighting enemies that swim it gives you interesting tactical decisions you can force upon enemies "get pushed 15ft. into that AoE or choose to swim 30ft. and get dragged along with me to my fighter buddy". Yes, that makes you very strong in the water, no I don't think this is a problem - underwater combat is enough of a struggle that in a typical game you'll either be limited to certain parts of the battlemap (trading tactical flexibility for power) or have to bring your own water (trading actions and resources for power). An aquatic-heavy game already requires so much player and DM buy-in and specific rules accommodations that I don't think this would be a problem there either. The switch to Str saves is purely thematic. I don't understand why Con would ever be used to resist a physical shove.

[@mikecarson7769]

Gator cracks me up

[@PackTactics]

🐟 Do you like fish sticks? 🐟

[@peon9584]

I wish you could at least remove the damage if you want to push an ally

[@richardrdotson]

We deserve better from WoTC. Great breakdown.

[@andrewthegeek6522]

I will just make a sea elf fighter then rollplay him as one with the sea

[@bskec2177]

I have to agree that this isn't very good. I also don't know how being a Sea Druid gives you a flying speed? It's the only good subclass feature, and it just makes no sense to me. I wonder if they put this in because Storm Sorcerer didn't make the cut for 2024, and they wanted something stormy. I would have preferred an Oceanic Land druid option, and an update to the Circle of the Shepard.

[@CitanulsPumpkin]

Sounds like they tried to copy Matt Mercer's Oath of the Open Seas paladin and ended up with a nerfed spore druid.

[@Grorl]

Sadly, this subclass really disappointed me. That ocean spray could have been so much better if it started at like 15ft or even 10 and uped to like 15/ 20ft. The fact that it also requires a ba for a save or suck on a single target really let itself down. 😢 The resistances and flight are amazing, though. Even doing so to a mate is even more insane.... but again, everything else just... blah

[@Pasakoye]

Need a brinicle freeze.

[@AndroidMaxine]

this really needed to just have the level 6 benefits right from level 3, and have something decent at level 6 instead, then it would have been a solid subclass.

[@Metalchefkiwi]

I wasnt impressed with this subclass in either form and i love druids. I thought i was missing something when people were saying its amazing

[@georgenorwood8979]

Is it bad, yes undoubtedly, but if you end up at a less optimized table this plus Shillelagh = a wet hobo with a big stick and a death wish knocking people around who if he lives long enough can become a flying wet hobo with a big stick and a death wish knocking people around and I think that is pretty funny

[@Phos9]

Ha oh man I'm kinda sad that you can't turn into a flying gator and shoot spells at people from the sky. You could have a character who is very enthusiastic about gators and fights that way but they keep getting mistaken for a dragon and they get increasingly annoyed that no one thinks of this sort of thing as a gator can do.

[@leifcasanova3097]

Finally a ocean druid

[@guamae]

Trying to visualize "going prone while hovering"... Mechanically, I don't dislike it, you lose speed, and get disadvantage on attack rolls in exchange for being harder to hit... Gameplay wise, I think it's bad, as it's offering free dodges for someone casting spells... But RP-wise.... I can't imagine what it would look like 🤷

[@GravityAP]

It probably looks like you angling your body to minimize area shown to those below

[@guamae]

@GravityAP yeah... I guess I can see that... But you'd be angling at one section of the field, and showing your belly to the rest of it... I think I'd grant Advantage to folk you're not angled at... 🤔

[@GravityAP]

@@guamae it’s just a game concept, it just works man. Why does a prone giant still give disadv on ranger attacks? Logically the target isn’t smaller than a medium creature standing normally and it’s even harder for the creature to avoid attacks.

[@guamae]

@@GravityAP which is why there's a GM to interpret rules instead of a computer applying them blindly 🤷

[@druxusthemage9806]

Im sry i know its rules as written but how the fuck does going prone in the air give disadvantage to ranged attacks i would say you just made yourself a bigger target

[@brunitop4753]

It would be way cooler if the subclass focused on the actual SEA and swimming aspect. Essentially letting you bring the ocean to wherever you go. For example: For the lvl 3 feature, you gain a swim speed equal to your speed and the ability to breathe underwater. The Emmanation ability is reworked to do the following. - Still makes use of your Wildshape as a bonus action. - Whenever you use it you can do the following: From your space, make all of the terrain underneath your feet in a 20 ft radius become water. The terrain only affects nonliving, nonmagical, solid or semisolid matter. The water remains in place and doesn't flow outside of the Emmanation's boundaries. It also cannot turn any manmade or otherwise artifical objects and materials into water (DM discretion). In fact, any artificial or magical walls that would cut off a portion of the Emmanation from the main body will stop the effect from passing through, even if there is more viable terrain on the other side of the walls. - On subsequent turns, you can use your bonus action to resummon/move the Emmanation from your space. -Probably lasts for only 1 minute or something. Whatever's balanced. As you gain levels in the class, the radius of the Emmanation and the swim speed both increase. Also, probably a good idea to change the spell list. Arms of Hadar would be cool and thematic. An idea for a high-level feature: you could choose any creatures within the Emmanation to also gain a swim speed and water breathing whenever you summon it.

[@Just_som_Ottur]

But Storm Cleric and Sorcerer both gets flight abilities.. :[

[@joshuapicaro8726]

Great video as always! I really enjoyed it, and I have a few thoughts I wanted to share: 2:09 - I’m curious why you’re suggesting Fog Cloud is bad here. You’ve made a great video in the past explaining why it’s useful. Has your opinion evolved, or is this a different context? 8:35 - When you mention that “anyone can make a broom of flying,” some viewers might take that literally. I assume you’re implying this is with DM buy-in, but clarifying could help avoid confusion. 9:05 - That’s such a cool observation about how flying synergizes with a Stars Druid! It opens up so many creative options. Lastly, I’ve noticed Treantmonk’s responses often spark discussion, and a bit of friendly back-and-forth between creators could boost engagement-especially if you’re open to leaning into that dynamic. That said, it seems like his critiques might be aimed more at Insight Check, but since your channel is much bigger, it’s easy for people to misattribute those takes to you. It’s unfortunate, but your creative ideas really stand out regardless! Keep up the great work-looking forward to the next one!

[@PackTactics]

2:09 - Fog cloud is indeed good but I want spells off the Druid list and really the problem with fog cloud is you only really need 1 party member with it and it's a rare cast but when you need it YOU REALLY NEED IT. I don't view them getting fog could as a highlight because druids can already get it. 8:35 - You literally talk to your DM about crafting magic items just like you talk to your DM about everything else including picking this subclass. Idk why everyone is pretending that this is a good counterargument against crafting. If the DM says no then it's fine, they might also say no to Twilight cleric, mounting, flying races and so on. I don't need to mention that you have to talk to your DM about everything, I assume you already do that. Those viewers who "take what I said literally", didn't take what I said literally in the first place. It is impossible to just randomly add a broom of flying to your inventory and use it without the DM being involved. 9:05 - It's a little bit silly but you can flavor things. I already have with Treantmonk, I told him Sea druid sucks so much that I don't care for it and it's very annoying to argue with someone who always takes the centrist point of view. He willfully ignored my take on the dpr because I'm right and he's been doing a lot of math lately and you're telling me now this one time he refuses to do it? It's obvious what's going on, he's side stepping. This is also a person who doesn't factor in damage dealt vs damage taken.

[@joshuapicaro8726]

@ this is unrelated to this video. But like you have really creative ideas with rope trick and stuff. How often does your idea get shut down? It’s hard for me to impede me t your pack of tactics ;) Because our DM won’t have any of it. Also, he said he is tired of me (wizard) solving puzzles through spells. So take it with a grain of salt. Also the bad takes came from the other video like I said.

[@PackTactics]

@@joshuapicaro8726 Not that often because I'm very transparent and the videos show this. If we played together, you'll have a good idea what I'm going to say or do. Now ofc there's tons of things I don't allow, do or like but I don't think talking about things or asking questions is a bad thing. Being transparent and likable can get you far even with things that are taboo. With the way you write to me, you strike to me as a lovely person so I wouldn't worry about it. The thing with ideas is when things sound extreme, they might hate it but if enough people share the same idea in a calm way, it doesn't sound that extreme anymore and you'll end up reflecting. So I highly recommend you do talk to your DM. They're not going to kick you out. They like you. I like you right now lol. Have a nice weekend btw.

[@Hildegunst_von_Mythenchad]

It's a suckclass!

[@LCCWPresents]

DnD wasn’t built for ocean combat, so I’m not surprised

[@CerberusPlusOne]

This is a good subclass, the only part that requires water is the swim speed.

[@Elderseas]

L

[@nicolaslopes8684]

Sea druid would be great on martial druids, no?

[@PackTactics]

Nah. Moon Druid.

[@NocPat]

Is this not the highest early game damage dealer in the whole game? With a resource for free in the bonus action? Certainly the highest dpr mage early with the least resource expenditure

[@Eddy_Grimm]

Aquaman Sucks, What's new?