Sean Carroll, Daniel Dennett, & Steven Pinker: AI, Parapsychology, Panpsychism, & Physics Violations

Patreon: bit.ly/3v8OhY7
Sean Carroll is Homewood Professor of Natural Philosophy at Johns Hopkins University and fractal faculty at the Santa Fe Institute. He is also host of Sean Carroll’s Mindscape, a terrific show (that influenced the birth of Robinson’s Podcast) about science, society, philosophy, culture, arts, and ideas. Daniel Dennett is Professor Emeritus of Philosophy at Tufts University, where he was co-director of the Center for Cognitive Studies and the Austin B. Fletcher Professor of Philosophy. He is one of the most recognized philosophers today, and has made major contributions to the philosophy of mind and biology, among other areas, and is known as one of the Four Horsemen of Atheism. Steven Pinker is Johnstone Family Professor of Psychology at Harvard University. He is an experimental cognitive psychologist, prominent public intellectual, and best-selling author who writes on language, mind, and human nature. This is Sean’s third appearance on the show. He was one of the guests-along with David Albert of Columbia University-on episode 106, which covers the Many-Worlds theory of quantum mechanics, entropy and Boltzmann Brains, and the fine-tuned universe. He was also on episode 118 with Slavoj Žižek on quantum physics, the multiverse, time travel, and a whole lot more. This is Dan’s second appearance on the show, as on episode 194 he and Robinson spoke about consciousness, free will, and the evolution of minds. Finally, Steve is returning for another centennial episode, as he and Robinson discussed rationality, enlightenment, and free speech on episode 100. But in this episode of Robinson’s Podcast (the two hundredth!), Sean, Dan, Steve, and Robinson discuss artificial intelligence, large language models, and whether or not they threaten democracy or even civilization itself, parapsychology and the laws of physics, panpsychism and consciousness, some of the philosophical lessons of Darwinian thought, and the relationship between science and philosophy. Dan’s latest book is I’ve Been Thinking (W. W. Norton, 2023), Steve’s latest book is Rationality: What It Is, Why It Seems Scarce, Why It Matters (Penguin, 2022), and Sean’s next book, Quanta and Fields: The Biggest Ideas in the Universe (Penguin, 2024), will be coming out on May 14, 2024.
Sean’s Website: www.preposterousuniverse.com
Sean’s Twitter: / seanmcarroll
Quanta and Fields (The Biggest Ideas in the Universe): ⁠a.co/d/gfMDLQo⁠
Sean’s Paper on QFT and Supervenience: ⁠arxiv.org/pdf/2101.07884.pdf⁠
I’ve Been Thinking: ⁠a.co/d/ahMEC0G⁠
Steven’s Website: stevenpinker.com
Steven’s Twitter: ⁠ / sapinker⁠
Rationality: a.co/d/9N2uFyr
Robinson’s Podcast #100 - Steven Pinker: Rationality, Enlightenment, and Free Speech: • Steven Pinker: Rationa...
Robinson’s Podcast #106 - David Albert & Sean Carroll: Quantum Theory, Boltzmann Brains, & The Fine-Tuned Universe: ⁠ • David Albert & Sean Ca... ⁠
Robinson’s Podcast #118 - Slavoj Žižek & Sean Carroll: Quantum Physics, the Multiverse, and Time Travel: • Slavoj Žižek & Sean Ca...
Robinson’s Podcast #194 - Daniel Dennett: Consciousness, Free Will, and the Evolution of Minds: ⁠ • Daniel Dennett: Consci... ⁠
OUTLINE
00:00 Introduction
6:11 Will Large Language Models End Civilization?
22:53 Could AI Destroy the Job Market?
28:14 On Parapsychology and the Violation of Physics
40:23 The Parable of the Bathtub
01:03:45 Physical Causation and the Law of Sufficient Reason
01:14:48 Is Consciousness an Illusion?
01:31:50 Does Physics Show that the Universe is Conscious?
01:44:36 What is Philosophy?
Robinson’s Website: ⁠robinsonerhardt.com⁠
Robinson Erhardt researches symbolic logic and the foundations of mathematics at Stanford University. Join him in conversations with philosophers, scientists, weightlifters, artists, and everyone in-between.

[@Spacegraham]

Is this a deck of cards? Cause I see four kings

[@usefmary1227]

Same

[@robinsonerhardt]

💀

[@HarryNicNicholas]

you aced that joke. what a diamond. is there a club we can join?

[@declanpatrickmacmanus5416]

Larry, Curly, Moe and Shemp and will be remembered as such for existing before color.

[@johnrichardson7629]

I see one king, one jack and two jokers.

[@Laches15]

RIP Dan Dennett - was surprised to hear of his passing after having watched this interview not too long ago :(

[@bharatxyz6770]

Exactly. He didn't seem unhealthy from this video. Maybe a bit slow but that's common with aging. Really surprised to see him dead after watching him on this podcast.

[@j.p.zukauskas7626]

RIP Dr. D. So glad I got to see this conversation. 🖤😔

[@davidclifford5124]

What a delightful discussion to listen to and especially one last opportunity to hear from the wonderful Dan Dennett. Thank you so much.

[@primetimedurkheim2717]

Idk how you get such quality guests so consistently, but I'm not complaining!

[@usefmary1227]

We are lucky indeed

[@robinsonerhardt]

Thanks!

[@bryandraughn9830]

Dude is connected.

[@calumlittle9828]

The guest list reads like a lolita express passenger log.

[@steveseamans9048]

Three of my favorite thinkers of all time. You’ve had so many great guests but you’ve really outdone yourself this time. Please keep these wonderful conversations going. Also, you’ve improved as a host, asking the right questions and comments. Bravo 👏

[@robinsonerhardt]

Thank you!

[@yanair2091]

I guess they are great thinkers, but not when it comes to the subjects in the title, namely spirituality, Parapsychology, Panpsychism and even Physics Violation. The last one because the Physics is about the fundamental laws of the physical (materialistic) world that don't change and are obeyed by abstract entities that we (physicists) abstracted in nature, like mass, energy, work, heat, velocity etc etc. So basically they don't think, or think in a wrong way when it comes to these questions.

[@shassett79]

Wow, the algorithm struck gold on this one. Don't know how this is the first time I've seen this channel, but you got a sub.

[@timelston4260]

Nothing better than getting great minds who disagree into the same room to hear each other's points and discuss, rather than having to listen to one interview at a time and wonder what each would say to the other if they were present. Tremendously useful discussion. Thank you all!

[@BlakeErhardt-Ohren]

I always appreciate a Sean Carroll episode! This is another great one!

[@usefmary1227]

He is such a great intellectual

[@radscorpion8]

@@usefmary1227 despite the fact that his claim on the unlikeliness of psychic phenomena was based on a pretty clear logical fallacy but I don't see you two FANS noticing ahahahah. Well I did *pats self on back*. I even wrote a comment about it which clearly demonstrates the fallacy. My work here is done

[@usefmary1227]

@@radscorpion8 of course you seem the kind of a guy who doesn't like logical fallacies ..

[@user-yv6xw7ns3o]

​@@radscorpion8When you wrote that comment (which I responded to) had you actually listened to that discussion section of the podcast, or just reported your first knee-jerk reaction to the edit in the intro? It really seems like the latter.

[@nathane5287]

I did not know I needed to see these 3 gents in a conversation, but man I did, awesome discussion!

[@fgcbrooklyn]

From a retired academic (me): academic research is largely based on competitive grants. It's inevitable that people competing for grants will turn ot AI machinery to crank out applications. Up till now we had to sweat to put together proposals that fit the different requirements of each grant. With AI anyone will be able to apply to every single grant available, in different foreign languages to boot. Has academia discussed this prospect? Or are you all still stuck on figuring out how to prevent students from cheating on their papers?

[@MattGray_Chelsoph]

what a great line up, happy geeseling right here. as regards your 200th show - congrats dude, you really are doing a great job and we appreciate it enormously.

[@robinsonerhardt]

Thanks so much!!!

[@williamjmccartan8879]

Congratulations Robinson, 200 episodes very cool, you consistently have great people to engage with and that benefits all of us, fantastic panel for number 200, thank you Daniel, Sean, Steven, and Robinson for sharing your time and work, 20 years ago you'd have to spend a week deep in a library to begin to gather the information presented here and its greatly appreciated, peace

[@robinsonerhardt]

Thanks so much, Billy!

[@mikey1836]

All highly likeable people. Peaceful and educational. Thank you.

[@JoshuaStadler1]

Great episode, Robinson! Please keep up the good work!!!

[@BrianCarey]

Awesome. Great conversation!

[@jbw6351]

Sick meeting of the minds nice job setting this up!!!

[@andystewart9701]

What awesome guests all at once! Such a great podcast! I also really liked these topics. Thanks!!

[@techteampxla2950]

The whole gang ROCKS! ty for this great congrats on so many beautiful podcasts+more! Thank you all !

[@usathomeintheworld677]

This is a hidden treasure, and is so far the best podcast of yours, Robinson, that I've had the privilege to listen to!

[@spencerwenzel7381]

This podcast is a hidden treasure. Congrats on episode 200 👏

[@robinsonerhardt]

Thank you!!

[@usathomeintheworld677]

100% agree - a hidden treasure, this is so far the best podcast of his that I've had the privilege to listen to!

[@ili626]

So glad this channel popped back into my feed. It’s been a while

[@Cant_find_good_Handle]

For some reason this was playing on my cell phone at times two speed when I woke up. My brain had been translated this into a dream where I was at a preppy frat party that doubled as an in processing station for drawing military gear for a deployment. I was going from station to station and had to wait in various lines to either play beer games or draw more T-50 (military gear). While in each line I was discussing all these super deep philosophical issues with people. When I woke up I immediately realized that I am not as smart as my dream made me think I am, but it did clarify how my interpretation of the world is really messed up.

[@koolguy728]

Wow what an incredible lineup. Cudos Robinson for organizing this, you've earned my sub

[@steliosp1770]

oh this is gonna be a good one. straight to my "Watch later" for tomorrow at work thanks Robinson.

[@mirzosharifjalolov4247]

Wow! Thank you for such a great talk!

[@onlynormalperson]

Congrats on 200 episodes!

[@robinsonerhardt]

Thanks!!

[@captainzappbrannagan]

Amazing guests and conversation. Great job! I like when you are less cat petting and more involved just in weeding out questions and ideas.

[@GiorgoMas]

Man you are an absolute legend. That's an all star line-up right there for the 200th. Thank you!

[@robinsonerhardt]

blushing

[@alwilsonwastheman]

All i can say is WOW! What a panel of guests..got yourself a new sub! keep up the great work

[@oliverjamito9902]

Beloved, keep watch!

[@ericroudabush5157]

Thank you. I'd never heard of this podcast or person and I really enjoyed it.

[@robinsonerhardt]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@leedb1]

Great to see Sean Carroll on the show. The main other channel I watch is his, he's a fantastic science/philosophy communicator.

[@ili626]

26:16 Exactly .. this is my concern right now as well. Aside from those drudgery jobs, AI is supposed to solve the climate crisis and cancer, not ruin art, culture and music

[@PaulTopping1]

Three of my favorite modern thinkers all in one place. I don't know Robinson but I will be following his YT feed from now on.

[@xerca]

Amazing episode!

[@comets4sale]

Very apt selection of guests whose expertise overlap and differentiate in productive and enlightening ways, especially when talking about teleology, with Sean, then Dan, then Steve piggybacking on each other and expanding the discussion.

[@kilogods]

Absolute home run podcast guest list! Congrats Robin!

[@robinsonerhardt]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@mach7479]

First video I’ve seen of yours. Instant subscribe

[@bharatxyz6770]

Watching from India. No podcast thumbnail has made me more excited than this. Great minds.

[@AngusRockford]

Two very enjoyable, thought-provoking hours. Thanks, gents!

[@ludviglidstrom6924]

Great episode!

[@elmoteroloco]

Robinson Erhardt, you really know how to throw a party! Thank you very much sir!!

[@danielm5161]

Great chat

[@deep-insight]

Awesome to see top thinkers in their respective fields. Looking forward to more such 👍

[@josejuancs]

Awesome guests and very interesting topics.

[@usefmary1227]

This is awesome

[@TimZM]

jesus christ 🍿

[@alexanderpopp2327]

HE KEEPS DOING IT! WTF ARE THOSE GUESTS WOW! cant wait

[@FMDD168]

Was an Alien splice. Immaculate conception in a sense.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

santa claus!! 🧑‍🎄

[@oscarvel9189]

​@@HarryNicNicholasYou get easily triggered, don't you? 😅

[@guywebber9312]

Now that is brilliant comment 😂😂😂

[@AaronEastman-gf5fx]

Krauss and Carroll episodes so close together is awesome.

[@dominicgerman5908]

Can’t believe this level of content is available and free. What a time to be alive.

[@szilardoberritter4135]

So glad we got to listen to Mr.Dennett! Such a great philosopher! at one point (around 1:25:00) Dennett is talking about degrees of things and not absolutes or definite lines between certain things. I think it’s logically almost impossible to avoid answering a question about a “first instance” of any appearance. For example, there had to be a first moment when something was alive rather than not alive and same with consciousness. The other possibility is that these things are just not emergent and rather constantly evolving characteristics of things.

[@PaulTopping1]

I think the problem with "illusion" applying to consciousness or free will is that the word carries a "fake" connotation. Something that isn't what you think it is, is not fake or unreal.

[@jyjjy7]

Yeah, it's a curiously terrible word to use to communicate what "illusionists" are generally claiming.

[@geldverdienenmitgeld2663]

if we take free will by word than the answer is clearly no. sorry human beings are wrong in many aspects. and they are less smart than they think. They should be waked up from their philosophical dreams. Can a person who can neither speak Chinese, nor master HTML, nor is a grandmaster at chess, nor can prove that the square root of two is not a rational number, nor understands the processes in the sun, be compared to AGI at all? LLM outprfom most humans in many aspects.

[@CJ-cd5cd]

Dennett is trying his hardest to avoid dualism, but I don’t think he’s successful. Calling consciousness an “illusion” is just a word game.

[@jyjjy7]

@@CJ-cd5cd Consciousness as part of a model being computed by the brain is actually kinda dualistic, but not in the same way it has traditionally been characterized in philosophical circles.

[@SkyGodKing]

Looks interesting, I really love listening to the best modern day philosopher there is, Sean Carroll

[@GoatOfTheWoods]

Yes, Sean Carroll !

[@StrongODonnell]

Very Cool Episode!

[@anthonybrett]

Wow. Well done Robinson. This is WAY! better than politics.

[@ChuckSilva]

Steven Pinker is totally inspiring…❤🔥

[@jimmybaker4821]

Sean carroll. Wow what a banger lineup

[@robinsonerhardt]

:)

[@ElderC1234]

my guy does not miss 🎯

[@animeonly8296]

Rip Daniel dennett

[@jjreddick377]

This is the greatest combo i've ever seen. You need to throw in Zizek and we might see some breakthroughs :)

[@monkerud2108]

this is a nice combo :).

[@robinsonerhardt]

I agree.

[@CJ-cd5cd]

Get Dean Radin and Ed Kelly on the show for a balanced discussion of psi phenomena.

[@AlexKleinkanocomputing]

As someone both developing artificial intelligences and interested in what their observed phenomena teach us about intelligence in general, it’s great to see such a nuanced discussion. Thanks Robinson, and congratulations on the big 2 zero zero.

[@robinsonerhardt]

Thank you!!!

[@actuallynph]

How are you getting these guests?? You have 20k subs and play with cats. I’m impressed. Keep it up.

[@user-hk7rf5bh2b]

Thank you SO SO much for this.

[@robinsonerhardt]

My pleasure!

[@danielm5161]

27:45 I haven't disagreed with Steve on very many things but what he sais here is wrong. Creative industries are moving towards ai generated imagery. Shutterstock and sites like it are on track to be put out of business by AI created images. So in that context at least, people are definitely willing to pay less for AI images instead of pay more for images taken by a photographer or drawn by a human artist.

[@jamesonrichards5105]

One day we will be blessed to hear Sean play that bass in the bass, hopefully with Lex

[@Wingedmagician]

how do you get three of the greats together just so casually like this 😮

[@johngaunce]

Three of my favorite public intellectuals. I'm not sure you could do better.

[@Life_42]

The day I subscribed is episode 200!

[@pjaworek6793]

No way Sean. You can always tell a famous scientist's authenticity. Great job with these guests!

[@KieranGarland]

would love for you to interview the economist Mark Blyth one day. just putting that out there into the universe. great episode, thank you!

[@pygmalionsrobot1896]

Three great thinkers, one great video.

[@mahneh7121]

26:30 decided to upvote. great point.

[@JAYMOAP]

Another banger

[@joeyrufo]

1:46:08 he's right! Philosophy IS more about the questions!

[@MarvinMonroe]

RIP Daniel, this episode was first thing I thought of when I heard he died. So recent

[@anthonygudwien6992]

I really enjoy your show! And even if I have disagreements with Dennett, Pinker and Carroll on the particular issue that this show confronts, I enjoyed this one, too. Having said this, why haven't you had Thomas Nagel (NYU) on your show? Of course, he believes that the mental is not reducible to the material. Thus, he poses a form of neutral monism that could possibly account for the mind, something that Nagel argues that a purely physicalist account cannot account for. Carroll threw his cards on the table, the physical laws of the universe -- mostly quantum laws -- are the only game in town. Nagel would disagree and pose a form of teleology that could plausibly account for the mind. I am sympathetic to Nagel's quest. At any rate, a show with Nagel would be great. Keep up the good work!

[@ncueva]

Awesome. I have shown two out of three of these men's artwork in New York (Dennett and Pinker), does Sean make art?

[@ragnarokfps]

Magnificent beard!!!!

[@ili626]

49:00 Dennett makes a good point, albeit inadvertently, about our relationship to language in general. I’m thinking of how phenomena exist prior to the words we invent to describe them. I believe, we get lost in word meanings and conceptual constructs, when the original insight and context is forgotten. Basically, we’re limited in what we can discuss accurately. Nevertheless, I described this idea using words

[@drvanhelsingz5133]

How the hell did u get this panel, impressive

[@alwilsonwastheman]

The telephone A.I scams on the elderly using voices of relatives is heartbreaking. Thhe depths humans will go to hurt others is disgusting

[@jfabiani]

What is the painting over the hosts right shoulder?

[@restorationofidentity]

Dame I love these fellers, my favourite critical thinkers 😊

[@hanochlivneh771]

Sean is always a masterful presenter. It's a treat to listen to him. Steve is also a highly impressive thinker and presenter. Dan?...well I am not so sure. The topics discussed seemed to be way over his head during this episode.

[@joelwrolstad945]

On the first point about counterfeit humans i believe Daniel Dennett is spot on. I am grateful there are still people giving caution and saying we should slow down.

[@ninjuhdelic]

Nah I’m good on waiting, people deserve to be cured of all these diseases like aging. Slowing ai will hamper that. Everyone deserves an opportunity at immortality

[@tonywestbrook9876]

Major Tom calling Sean, "confined energy is the origin of mass, there is no space w/o a field."

[@MarcelBlattner]

I love it! Panpsychism is a slogan.

[@Anders01]

Interesting topic. I came to think of what Goethe wrote that science is only looking at the surface of reality. That's true even today! The Wolfram Physics Project I see as a more fundamental model based on a single graph (network of points). Consciousness I believe can be seen as a state of the graph rather than as something separate from it.

[@samwisegametree]

Hadn't watched Sean Carroll for a while, and I just realised that in my memory (e.g. the way I'd picture him when reading something of his) he had completely morphed into Pete Holmes, maybe with a hint of Paul Bloom, too.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

24:00 i left school at 16 in 1970 and apart from manual work i've done along the way i've been a graphic artist in all the time, print, electronic typesetting, computer graphics and animation, games, film effects, name something i haven't done (i'm a sculptor at present) and i seem to recall photography was going to put artists out of work wasn't it? now i can do a lot more myself, visuals i can only dream of (literally) and even animation and full blown video, but all that happens is new ideas replace the old - see my other comment, AI isn't taking over anytime soon.

[@ragnarokfps]

I'm not buying it from Steven when he says at around 24:50 that there are very few signs of technologically driven unemployment. I am an Uber Driver, a Doordash driver, and Amazon driver, and all of these delivery platforms are run by artificial intelligence and algorithms. I don't have a real person for a boss, I have a counterfeit person who never speaks to me or let's me know he even exists. He solely controls how much money I earn, what work I can possibly do, the extent to which I am able to earn money. I was hired by a fake person and I can be fired by a fake person. Or "deactivated" for the technical lingo. There is a term in economics called "algorithmic wage discrimination," and it's pretty much exactly like the way a reasonable might expect it to be based on the name of the phenomenon. What countermeasures are in place to prevent this? The government generally seems concerned with only whether or not workers like myself are classified as independent contractors or as employees, and not concerned with this. Yeah it's true that while you know, pizza places and other restaurants have largely fired all of their delivery drivers in favor of AI based delivery, and I get a job because of it, but I'm probably making about the same amount of money as those employed workers made, and I don't get the rights that are guaranteed to employees because I'm legally a contractor. And Uber/Lyft rides etc are also based on an AI/algorithm model. They've displaced some vast number of taxicab workers and companies. Is this a good trade off? I'm not so sure it is. I think Dan Dennett's concerns are very well-founded.

[@themaximus144]

I would like to issue a correction you said: "Sean Carroll ... the host of Mindscape which is the best philosophy and science show out there". but this is simply untrue because YOUR show is the best philosophy and science show out there! Mindscape is a close second though.

[@robinsonerhardt]

[@davidasher22]

Rest in peace Daniel..

[@davebrooks452]

Will never get back the first six minutes of this video

[@biojunkyard9597]

Look at Pinker holding that desk mic.

[@bjornrie]

Do the guys know the work of Niklas Luhmann? It really gave me some orientation in novel ways regarding the big picture and the world, or better society we live in.

[@keppela1]

Just a little over 25 years ago, no physicist could have dreamed of dark energy. Now most believe it's the most abundant form of energy in the universe. Given that history, it's amazing physicists like Sean Carroll so blithely dismiss other possible forms of energy that might be mediating "metaphysical" phenomena.

[@MassDefibrillator]

It is odd, isn't it. Stuff like this makes you realise that scientists are just humans, and I think all people would benefit from realising that. The rise of scientism is quite disturbing, where scientists are treated as a kind of priest class that are gatekeepers of truth.

[@chemquests]

He’s explained this before on Mindscape. We have complete theories at most energy scales. The frontier of physics is dealing in extreme energies such that any new findings will have zero effect on physics at our scale. The door has effectively closed for parapsychology and such.

[@keppela1]

@@chemquests Yup, there's that signature hubris. You're in good company with Lord Kelvin who blundered "There's nothing new to be discovered in physics" back in 1900, lol.

[@chemquests]

@@keppela1 I didn’t say nothing new; I qualified it with “at the relevant energies”. You heard Sean explain that it would require photos for telekinesis to work; these are principled arguments that limit what’s possible. You’d first have to propose a physical mechanism before anyone entertains these ideas seriously, which is fair. Do you expect to blurt out anything at all and always be taken seriously?

[@keppela1]

@@chemquests The only thing I've "blurted out" are factual examples of how physicists have been proven spectacularly wrong before. Given that history, I think a little humility is in order.