You Can Trust the Old Testament (2 BIG Qs)

[@biddiemutter3481]

Thank God for ancient manuscript hoarders!

[@steveh572]

Sean’s killing it with these guests and topics lately. My favourite apologetics channel at the moment!

[@SeanMcDowell]

Nice to hear. Lots more to come!

[@2EdgedSword77]

This was extremely fascinating and like you said Sean, the Bible didn't just fall out of Heaven written in English! It's really cool to study and listen to how God's Word came to be our modern Canon. I've grown so much in evangelism and apologetics because of you Sean, so thank you for what you do brother!

[@SeanMcDowell]

Thanks Tim. Awesome to hear. Join us at Biola!

[@2EdgedSword77]

@@SeanMcDowell Will there be an online or KZbin stream of that class available afterwards?

[@aaronmonroe7932]

●Hebrews 10 5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But ●a body●You have prepared for Me. ●Psalm 40:6 6 Sacrifice and offering You did not desire; ●My ears● You have opened. Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.

[@bullheadedgideon1673]

​@@SeanMcDowell I'm curious to Tim Chander's question as well, regarding whether or not there will be online/KZbin stream of those classes.

[@BibleSongs]

These interviews with Meade are excellent.

[@stephenrice2063]

Great ending! Failure to engage Eastern Orthodoxy has been one of the major weaknesses of Protestant scholarship.

[@jeromeofmiddleton]

I completely agree. Protestants need to more deeply engage with Eastern Orthodoxy (and Oriental Orthodoxy - especially, the Coptic Church).

[@stephenrice2063]

@@jeromeofmiddleton I'm more familiar with Eastern Orthodoxy, but I do know enough about Oriental Orthodoxy to understand the distinction between "monophysite" and "miaphysite," and that the groups in question are the latter. I disagree with the non-Protestants, but not as much as I disagree with the Calvinists, for example, and I consider them my brothers and sisters. so the rest are definitely family. Blessings!

[@edcroteau3237]

Dr. Meade, just like you, I LOVE the Old Testament - seeing the connections between the Prophets and Jesus Christ is incredible! Getting your book.

[@paradisecityX0]

The Unseen Realm and Crucifixion of the Warrior God are must-reads for appreciating the wider context of the Old Testament

[@RiaanPretorius]

Who wrote the Crucifixion of thw Warrior God? Sounds good.

[@paradisecityX0]

​@@RiaanPretorius Greg Boyd

[@paradisecityX0]

Also "Israelite Religions" and "Two Powers In Heaven"

[@RiaanPretorius]

@@paradisecityX0 that is my dude! I loved his interview in the Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. The Audible version read by Dick Fredericks is really well done!

[@morlewen7218]

I can agree with Sean. It would be very interesting and edicating to bring a Catholic, an Eastern Orthodox and an Oriental Orthodox scholar together with an Protestant one and compare differences and commonalities between the big Christian branches. May it be canon, the nature of Jesus or the the topic scripture and traditions.

[@jontscott]

I have to put this up there in the top three people you have brought on the show (the other two in the top three are in my view Titus Kennedy and Joel Kramer,) very interesting and encouraging.

[@SeanMcDowell]

Wow, I’m glad you enjoyed it so much!

[@elysenapoli6395]

Perfect timing for me to hear this. I've been looking into why we chose the texts we have and found myself getting more confused. Can't wait for the next talk.

[@SeanMcDowell]

You're welcome!

[@rampartranger7749]

I was with relatives in a Sephardic synagogue in Israel in 1995 on Shabbat, and they were doing the Torah reading when suddenly a huge uproar and dispute erupted, everybody with something angry to say. My Hebrew is pretty primitive , I did not understand at first. What happened is that they had a new scroll that they had purchased, and as the men in the congregation read along in their own printed text, it didn’t match! They were mad that there was an in accurate word, so, the service halted for 20 minutes while they negotiated how after Shabbat they would take it back to the scribe in Jerusalem and get it repaired. Nobody made any jokes, they were dead serious.

[@Toronado2]

rampart ranger Are you a Christian?

[@nathanwaters3889]

Just bought the book. I could listen to John all day! Thank you guys for this episode!

[@paulallen7962]

No thanks necessary. Exploiting brainwashed, gullible fools is how they make their living.

[@johntumpkin3924]

Thank you, Dr. Sean and Dr. Meade, for an excellent, uplifting discussion, which strengthens faith in the Old Testament, and in the Bible as a whole. I am of the considered view that, if earlier scriptural documents will be discovered, from the period before and soon after the Noachian Flood, these will not shrink the existing Canon, but will representatively augment it. Furthermore, it would be a very impoverished Canon, and a terribly dangerous world, without the sublime literary grandeur, public health and economic warnings, and cosmic perspectives of the Apocalypse, that is, the Revelation. G-d bless!

[@lifegrip]

Thank you Dr. McDowell and Dr.Meade!

[@SeanMcDowell]

Our pleasure!

[@oxenbrandmusic]

This was dope. However, not sure why I thought I was going to get this all down in one listen lol. I'll be runnin' this back soon for sure

[@darrenmiller6927]

Fascinating. Great guest, great show. Could not stop watching. Near hypnotic.

[@SeanMcDowell]

Thanks for listening!

[@AlexSmusiak]

What a great conversation.

[@SeanMcDowell]

👍

[@Nunya1387]

Gonna try to watch! I know it’s not what the interview is going to be about but I’ve always wondered if the NT was written to validate the OT. Writers would have had access to the OT so they would know what needed to be written in order to “fulfill” scripture. I mean, I doubt it happened that way but how can we know? Anyway, I think I’ve mentioned this here before though, so nothing new from me. 😁

[@SeanMcDowell]

Great, enjoy!

[@Potamotrygorgeous]

Good question. In the OT you can find over three hundred prophecies concerning the Messiah. Statistically, the chance of those being fulfilled (or if I understand your writing correctly 'to validate the OT) in one person, is close zero.

[@RaymondTT]

​@@Potamotrygorgeous The skeptic response might be something like "Jesus didn't fulfill them, but the gospel authors said he did anyway to gain authority." So they throw doubt on prophesies, Jesus and the authors at once. But of course, have no evidence for their claim. It's just a claim.

[@MrSeedi76]

​@@RaymondTT that would only make sense if they just took all the classical "messianic prophecies" but they didn't. The chain of events was more like, Jesus did or said something and then the people who transmitted it tried to make sense of it and looked for passages in the OT that might enlighten them.

[@BurningHearts99]

Great interview Sean! Very informative. I’ve studied some of these issues for decades and I learned a good bit. Thanks!

[@funkysilencer20]

Fantastic video, definitely buying the book!

[@SeanMcDowell]

You’ll enjoy it.

[@iandacosta107]

What strikes me about that Isaiah passage is that it's often translated as "/he/ will see /it/ and be satisfied." So the question becomes (1) who is satisfied and (2) by what is he satisfied. Of course there could be any number of views that follows, but the cynic in me says - oh look another verse that people are going to use for penal substitutionary atonement. So I actually like the "he will see the light" in my case.

[@DanellTomasella]

Compelling. Looking forward to it.

[@SeanMcDowell]

John is great. You'll enjoy it!

[@TheManmvele]

Sean can you interview Josh Schooping a convert from Eastern Orthodox to Protestantism?

[@SeanMcDowell]

This is the first I’ve heard of him!

[@jettruth]

Along with Protestant Old Testament canon matching the Hebrew OT canon, there is something satisfying about there being 66 chapters in Isaiah and 66 books in the Protestant bible. It’s like one more prophecy wrapped up nicely with a bow.

[@2besavedcom-7]

As long as you realise that chapters were never part of the Hebrew Text, but added at a much later date...

[@cobusprinsloo]

I so wish you could discuss the sceptic’s claim that most of the Old Testament books were written only during the Babylonian exile, and that Jews borrowed some of their material from Babylonian myths.

[@rochellecaffee1417]

The fear of the LORD…faithfulness. They kept the Spirit of God very cohesive in the writings. There could more understanding as time went by, as well. Keeping the nation together was a primary objective of God through Jeremiah. Well, I have always wanted to spend more time reading, studying Jeremiah. I have not applied myself in study of it thoroughly yet. Is there much in or anything in Josephus re Jeremiah? I have a volume of Josephus. We are way off understanding “marriage” right now in our contemporary culture.

[@BibleSongs]

Can you do, or is there an interview you've done, specifically on the canonization of the Hebrew Bible, versus Samaritan traditions for example, through the Second Temple period and as per the Apostles' and their received Bible?

[@aaronmonroe7932]

The word kā’ari is used 63 times in the bible and only in Psalms 22:16 is it translated as pierced. It should be like a lion ●Psalm 22 Jewish translation 11 (10) Since my birth I’ve been thrown on you; you are my God from my mother’s womb. 12 (11) Don’t stay far from me, for trouble is near; and there is no one to help. 13 (12) Many bulls surround me, wild bulls of Bashan close in on me. 14 (13) They open their mouths wide against me, like ravening, roaring lions. 15 (14) I am poured out like water; all my bones are out of joint; my heart has become like wax - it melts inside me; 16 (15) my mouth is as dry as a fragment of a pot, my tongue sticks to my palate; you lay me down in the dust of death. 17 (16) Dogs are all around me, a pack of villains closes in on me ■like a lion [at] my hands and feet ●Psalms 22 Christian Bible 10 I was cast upon You from [j]birth; You have been my God from my mother’s womb. 11 Do not be far from me, for [k]trouble is near; For there is no one to help. 12 Many bulls have surrounded me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me. 13 They open their mouths wide at me, As a ravening and roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It is melted within [l]me. 15 My strength is dried up like a piece of pottery, And my tongue clings to my jaws; And You lay me [m]in the dust of death. 16 For dogs have surrounded me; [n]A band of evildoers has encompassed me; ■[o]They pierced my hands and my feet.

[@morlewen7218]

How do we know we have the right books? Since all the differnt canons were established under the guidance of the Holy Spirit they are all true and right. Or all false?

[@paradisecityX0]

Biblical scholarship

[@fraukeschmidt8364]

Very insightful, thank you very much for this.

[@SeanMcDowell]

Glad it was helpful!

[@aaronmonroe7932]

■Romans 10 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): ■Deuteronomy 30 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it. 11 “For this commandment which I command you today is [c]not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it. ■ 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach):

[@Matzah1982]

One of the most interesting variations in readings in the Tanakh is in Psalm 145 where there is an acrostic anomaly that leaves out the Hebrew letter nun and goes straight from mem to samek. The LXX and Syriac translations insert a part there that they borrow from earlier in the text where it has the Hebrew phrase namein meaning faithful translated there into Greek and Syriac and renders the Hebrew phrase ‘’Namein HaShem b’kol davarav v’chasid b’kol masav’’ as faithful is HaShem in all his acts and kind in all his deeds. The rabbinical sages of blessed memory say that part was intentionally left out to emphasize the word nefillim in the samek part meaning the falling ones because it begins with a nun and it’s meant to emphasize that Somek HaShem HaNefillim HaShem is supporting the falling ones. The sages also said that every observant Jew who recites that psalm 3 times a day when he does his daily prayers will surely have a place in the world to come. I would also say that the Code of Hammurabi being written down at least a few hundred years before Moshe Rabbeinu of blessed memory wrote Torah confirms that writing existed at his time

[@Tony-ci7ys]

A servant will see - no substantial difference from "will see light" since to see ANYTHING you still need light. (And The Bible IS this sort of physical.)

[@dalerobinson8051]

I've read that the apocryphal books exist only in Greek, i.e., the Jews didn't think enough of them to preserve in Hebrew. That alone should rule them out of the canon.

[@fyrerayne8882]

Leviticus 20 is the one that really makes me doubt if this is truly the inspired word of God.

[@donaldcordner1936]

Could you do a show on The Documentary Hypothesis? If you have already, can you post the link?

[@SeanMcDowell]

Great idea. Haven’t yet but appreciate the suggestion.

[@donaldcordner1936]

@@SeanMcDowell Thanks Doc! It would be great because it's really beginning to encroach on even laypersons in the churches. Oh, it was really great meeting you at Biola back in November. Sorry my brother and I grabbed you at lunch in the Eagle's Nest. You were most gracious! Keep up the great work!!

[@zimriel]

Be aware that the Documentary Hypothesis is no longer the forefront of scholarship. Nadav Naaman (who is no literalist) does not subscribe to it. In particular the "E" source is no longer taken seriously; and "P" is split into actual Priestly writings and the "Holiness Code" Lev. 17-26. An attack on this will read like an attack on "Darwin", inasmuch as modern biology concerns genetics and treats Darwin as the 19th-century cataloguer he was, which is to say, published biology papers rarely cite Darwin (contrast how published physics cite Einstein). So a show on the Documentary Hypothesis would probably have to be an introductory course on the early history of Pentateuchal / Deuteronomic-History scholarship. Modern scholarship means Thompson, Finkelstein, Naaman, Tov, and Halpern. (Maybe Gmirkin and Lemche, as extremes; but I consider them cranks.)

[@mikedickinson9730]

What is the end of Marks gospel problem?

[@bullheadedgideon1673]

Man.... *Great* video

[@paulenzor6993]

Sean's audio was always barely audible. The guest was too loud at the beginning then trickled down to the level of Sean's audio. Barely able to boost audio enough to hear.

[@The1OnlyBaconator]

Is it just me, or does John's and Sean's voice sound a lot like each other when they speak?

[@fraukeschmidt8364]

Not just you. When I was just listening and not watching, I wasn't always sure who was speaking.

[@brandonmizell6132]

What about the Book of Enoch??

[@areacode3816]

On the scrolls of Jeremiah in Jeremiah 36 the King burned original scrolls and he had rewritten it. I know this might be a long shot but might this be connected in anyway to the difference in length? Possibly different versions copied?

[@zimriel]

The differences sprout up in the Near East under the Greeks. The Septuagint and some of Qumran on one side; Vulgate, Peshitta, and the Masoretic on the other. Looks like it was expanded in Hasmonaean Judaea, with the Greeks in Alexandria maintaining (in translation) the better version. The New Testament as a rule prefers Septuagint for the Prophets and Psalms. Although Paul seems aware of the (expanded) Masoretic Jeremiah 10.

[@aaronmonroe7932]

■Hebrews 10:5 5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But ●a body●You have prepared for Me. ■Psalm 40:6 6 Sacrifice and offering You did not desire; ●My ears● You have opened. Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.

[@Toronado2]

You seem to be very knowledgeable in the Christian Faith. I am a Muslim. And as you should know Muslims are very critical of the Christian Faith. Do you think you have enough knowledge to set me straight? OR will you flounder under the scrutiny? Care to be tested?

[@aaronmonroe7932]

@@Toronado2 "You seem very knowledgeable, very capable of representing your ingroup. As you should know I am apart of a different ingroup who is very critical of your ingroup. Do you have enough strength to set me straight? Or will you be destroyed by the muscles of my indoctrination." My box versus your box. My ideology versus your ideology. It is not my necessity to set you straight. I jumped out of my religious box but the only box we cannot escape is the box of our humanity. I'm proudly a former christian. I'm interested in learning about beliefs and at times I will present a different viewpoint about a topic than what people usually always hears.

[@aaronmonroe7932]

@@Toronado2 In my post I'm only pointing out how christian writers twisted the Hebrew verses in order to fit their theology.

[@Toronado2]

@@aaronmonroe7932 Well then, good day to you. You are welcome to stay in your Box. I am not interested in disturbing your comfort zone that you are Not comfortable in revealing.

[@aaronmonroe7932]

@@Toronado2 My comfort is my humanity and I try to be mindful of the choices I make in life because I know my choices can affect others in our civilization. I consider myself as a former christian.

[@Matzah1982]

The concept of the resurrection of the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 could be prophesied in verse 11 especially if the idea of ‘’from the travail of his soul he will see light. He will be satisfied by his knowledge’’ is more accurate than leaving light out but even the Masoretic rendering of ‘’from the travail of his soul he will see. He will be satisfied by his knowledge’’ could imply resurrection too. A few later Middle Ages rabbinical writers did write that Mashiach Ben Yosef would die as an atonement for the ppl and rise again even though more ancient rabbinical writers didn’t see Mashiach Ben Yosef as dying as an atonement and certainly after the common era was under way Isaiah 53 was interpreted more as an allegory about the sufferings of Israel as Eved HaShem and not seen as being messianic prophecy even though it could mean both the sufferings of the Jews as Eved HaShem but also Mashiach Ben Yosef as the anointed symbolic head and representative of Israel suffering as the ultimate and final atonement for Israel and being resurrected from the dead after as pictured by the life of Yosef in Torah and being the second in command to Mashiach Ben David as Yosef was to Pharaoh in Egypt even though it would be Mashiach Ben David who would reign as the king upon the throne of David and bring all exiled Jews back to Israel and bring peace to the world and bring the knowledge of HaShem to the world as the waters cover the seas

[@someguy7222]

Sean hairline starting to give off that Stephan A. Smith vibe

[@ready1fire1aim1]

Compare these two verses: 2 Samuel 24:1 Names of God Bible David’s Sin-He Takes a Census 24 Yahweh became angry with Israel again, so he provoked David to turn against Israel. He said, “Go, count Israel and Judah.” and 1 Chronicles 21:1 Names of God Bible David Counts the People 21 Satan attempted to attack Israel by provoking David to count the Israelites. 🧐 It's important to note that different scholars and theologians have different interpretations of the relationship between Elohim (Genesis 1) and Yahweh (Genesis 2) in the Hebrew Bible, and there is no consensus on whether they are different deities or different names for the same deity. However, here are five hypothetical reasons some scholars might consider: 1. Different Names: The names Elohim and Yahweh are distinct, and they are used in different contexts throughout the Hebrew Bible. Some scholars argue that this suggests that they represent different conceptions of the divine, and that they might have originally been separate deities that were later merged. 2. Different Characteristics: Elohim is often portrayed as a more distant, transcendent deity, while Yahweh is portrayed as a more personal, immanent deity. Some scholars argue that these different characteristics suggest that they are different deities. 3. Different Origins: Some scholars argue that the name Yahweh is associated with the southern kingdom of Judah, while the name Elohim is associated with the northern kingdom of Israel. This difference in origin could suggest that they were originally separate deities worshipped by different communities. 4. Different Roles: Elohim is often associated with creation and judgment, while Yahweh is often associated with salvation and redemption. Some scholars argue that these different roles suggest that they are different deities with distinct spheres of influence. 5. Different Historical Contexts: The use of the name Elohim is more prevalent in the early books of the Hebrew Bible, while the name Yahweh becomes more prominent in later books. Some scholars argue that this suggests that the conception of the divine changed over time, and that Elohim and Yahweh might represent different deities worshipped at different points in history.

[@omermahamed5507]

Nice interview but would like to say that The very earliest manuscripts that we have are 2000 years after Moses so how do we know that in this gap the text was transmitted safely we dont even know the scribes that wrote down the ot so we can’t trust them literally the bibles is a copy of a copy of that manuscript we don’t have the original text to know whether the ot we have is right or not i would like to see dr sean debate with muslim scholars regarding this matter especially those from speakers corners in the uk

[@justintan1198]

👍

[@northoftoofar3772]

Like antinomians even care about the OT anyway.

[@monotheist..]

many isaiah propjet moses mot wrote his own death many anonymois scribes scribe work activity

[@monotheist..]

vulgate trent canon holy even vulagte itself is corrupted

[@midimusicforever]

It's legit for sure!

[@monotheist..]

emglihs use masoratic 9 century ad edited masoratic english and hebrew removed verses edited numbers

[@mikedickinson9730]

I find it interesting that scholars are now falling away from the OT text being accurate. Seems as if we are standing in the midst of the apostasy spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians. I’ve seen it for a while as far as church members and pastors go, but, to hear of scholars gives it more weight.

[@MrSeedi76]

Really? First time I'm hearing of that. The dead sea scrolls made it obvious how faithfully the texts have actually been transmitted. I'm unaware of any new theories contradicting that. The most critical voices were raised in the 60s and 70s I'd say - the time when obviously anti-apologists like Bart Ehrman visited university (and never learned anything new after that 😊). I'd be careful to apply any prophecy to the current state of the Christian faith.

[@brendabrowning8721]

Dead Sea Scrolls

[@steveprofiler]

Why believe in God if you have free will?

[@Toronado2]

Why NOT Believe in God if you have Free Will?

[@steveprofiler]

@@Toronado2 That I can answere when you have answered what I have already asked you in the other post you where suppose to answere.

[@Toronado2]

@@steveprofiler WHY can't you answer? Don't you have the Free Will to Answer?

[@steveprofiler]

@@Toronado2 That I can answere when you have answered what I have already asked you in the other post you where suppose to answere.

[@Toronado2]

@@steveprofiler WHY are you parroting the same thing over and over? WHY can't you answer?

[@monotheist..]

they tampaered with torah 5 and ot as a whole pseudo speduos pseduo no standart text qumran wild copies pseudowroting paeudostory speudoeverything pseudohere pseuothere many pseudo soo many pseudo edit text christian need to use lxx ot updated languge updated city anachornism uodated lamguge dss proto differ with mt middle age copy masor cahnged versus nt ot jew strict but fluid text edit remove expand christian need to use lxx

[@MrSeedi76]

Nobody tampered with anything. And please, learn how to write.

[@heynow1388]

It always truly puzzles me that Christians never stop and ask themselves why their God has made such an awful job at transmitting his story and his message which, if true, must be the most important thing ever communicated to humanity. If the Christian God exists, and he is omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent, etc, then his message must be the most important one ever, yet he chose to transmit it in one specific place, within a relatively primitive culture, written decades afterwards in a language (Greek) not spoken by most of the principal characters in the story, and written in a book which has allowed a vast range of interpretations. Surely Christians should at least consider that their God has done a very bad job here? Surely they should ask themselves what it would look like if this entire thing is the product of fallible human beings? It certainly looks like this is a man made not a God made phenomena. Basically, this conversation (and most other apologetic conversations) should not be necessary. Sean and John Meade are two decent people whose overwhelming emotional and psychological need to believe makes them jump through hoops to try to wrangle some sense and meaning from an old text which they believe to be inspired by a God. John Meade has clearly put a huge amount of his time and intellectual energy into studying and rationalising problematic aspects of this old text, but I wonder if he ever stops to ask himself why this is necessary? Somewhere in the Bible it says . . . “God is not the author of confusion” . . . well, from this and a million other apologist conversations, that certainly doesn’t seem to be the case.

[@MrSeedi76]

Everything needed is spelled out quite clearly. "Love God with all thy heart and thy neighbor as thyself". And I'd say that this is more than enough for one lifetime. Not sure what other messages you want. I think it's hilarious that atheists seem to fall for the same old tropes that evangelicals invented in the 19th century. That the whole Bible is the verbally inspired word of God that applies in each verse at all times. And I often have read that atheists want the Bible to somehow be transmitted differently than like it happened. Why? How? Like a voice from heaven? But the old saying applies, "these people wouldn't even believe if people came back from the dead". Precisely what happened.

[@heynow1388]

@@MrSeedi76 Many thanks for your response. You say that the only message needed is . . . “Love God with all thy heart and thy neighbour as thyself”. That’s a wonderful sentiment and it is certainly found in the Bible; the problem is it is also found in other religions. For example, a Muslim would say exactly the same thing. Therefore, what is an atheist like me to believe? The Christian could be right, the Muslim could be right, they both can’t be right, but they both can be wrong. You also say that you find it funny that atheists keep engaging in with the tropes of Christian fundamentalists. That’s certainly true, but please give atheists a break . . . one of the reasons for doing so is that Christian fundamentalists are so vocal, and in America at least are very influential in society, politics, etc. Also, in defence of atheists, they also engage with mainstream non-fundamental Christian believers who we atheists maintain believe things that are either demonstrably false or morally deeply problematic. In other words, I don’t think atheists are engaging only with fundamentalists. I’m assuming you’re the type of Christian who wouldn't maintain that the Bible is word-for-word inspired by God, and I agree that this is the most credible position to take. However, this opens up the Bible to a very wide degree of interpretation and still leaves you with the question I put in my initial response, which is why would an omnibenevolent, omniscient, omnipotent God mix up good messages with very bad messages? More importantly, why would he allow for such a huge degree of interpretation and potential misinterpretation. After all, the stakes couldn’t be higher . . . Eternal Life! Surely he could have done a better job at transmitting his message? He does so principally in the Bible, and while that has some excellent moral precepts, it also shows God committing genocide, commanding genocide, commanding the killing of children; it includes the endorsement of slavery and hundreds of other morally problematic things. Don’t you as a Christian (and presumably an honest person) at least think it very strange that this is the case? At the very least this seems strange and indicates to me at least that the Bible is entirely a man-made product and not inspired by a God. You obviously disagree so I would be very interested to know why you think the bad stuff is in there. Also, if you are one of those Christians who disregard all the factual and morally problematic issues with the Bible and concentrate on Jesus, how honest is that? Isn’t it a massive act of cherry picking? Is it honest just to sidestep all the bad stuff. Finally, when talking of the resurrection you say a man came back from the dead and “that’s precisely what happened". Do you have any evidence for this? I know it’s in the Bible, but the Bible is the claim, not the evidence.

[@tbishop4961]

Feels extremely unlikely that Moses wrote all or even a majority of the torah. The grammar/word choice changes too frequently I just heard that tech guy that ran for president on dem ticket say that AI is already capable of examining and grading papers. They should be capable of identifying various writing styles. I expect AI will soon demonstrate the various authors/sources of the text

[@theeternalsbeliever1779]

Christ credited Moses as being the sole author of the Torah, and He should know since He was the God who inspired Moses to record everything.

[@tbishop4961]

@@theeternalsbeliever1779 😂

[@ec-bi2ok]

Of all the podcasts I listen to on KZbin, Sean has the worst microphone. I normally listen through earbuds while driving and it's hard to hear him

[@monotheist..]

msoratic see only lxx dss isiaish 53 see light no standart text its all fluid evolve masoratic fluid canon also law prophet psalm torah being edited and changed absolutrly torah lxx not perfect torah masor edited jesus joth title law prophet psalm torah ot not preserved not unedited but edited lxx mot perfect wordiing

[@MrSeedi76]

Is anybody supposed to understand your word salad?

[@velkyn1]

claims of "correct" copies doesn't mean that what was copied is true. Unsurprisingly, there is no evidence for the essential events in the OT, with the possible eception of the babylonian captivity, and even that isn't as described in the bible. Christians can't agree even on what parts of the OT to take as literal, as metaphor, as exaggeration, etc. They are all over the board when it come to the two versions of "creation", the noah flood, the tower of babel, the supposed battles between hundreds of thousands, and of course, the nonsense in Exodus. No one noticed Egypt losing a sizable part of its population, its food supply, and its army. No one also noticed 600,000+ people wandering around an area half the size of Pennsylvania for 40 years, and not one latrine, trashpit, etc has been found, despite the bible giving the supposed route they took. Some Christian invent excuses for this, insisting it was far fewer people, despite the bible giving the exact numbers of how many of each tribe was wandering around. All in all, the whole set of nonsense is nothing more than the fantasies of one culture. The new testament fails like the old one, a set of baseless claims supported by nothing.

[@Rat-czar]

You’d probably find better use of your time peddling your baseless claims and frustrations with Christian theology elsewhere. Surprisingly KZbin comment sections aren’t the place to change people’s mind😂

[@velkyn1]

@@Rat-czar Unsurprisingly, rocky can't show I'm wrong, and hopes to convince me to go somewhere else, and not show how chrisitans make up nonsense. "You’d probably find better use of your time peddling your baseless claims and frustrations with Christian theology elsewhere. Surprisingly KZbin comment sections aren’t the place to change people’s mind😂"

[@kimalonzo3363]

You've made 925 comments on Sean's channel. Congratulations! You're a troll!!

[@seanvogel8067]

You are shockingly ignorant.

[@velkyn1]

@@kimalonzo3363 "You've made 925 comments on Sean's channel. Congratulations! You're a troll!!" well, Kim, I've made lots of comments on Sean's channel, and surprise, the poor dear can't show that I'm wrong. Neither can you.

[@sanjeevgig8918]

An omnipotent god would have created some educated scribes who didn't make errors while he was relating/transmitting the story. An omniscient god would have ensured that the the story didn't become a telephone game for decades and centuries later Xtian Excuse Makers will be required to interpret and contextualize and harmonize text found in centuries old scraps. LOL

[@MrSeedi76]

Lol back. You think the world is your private wishing well? It's hilarious how atheists want the world to look like so they can finally be convinced of anything. Surely you don't apply this scrutiny to anything else you choose to believe in.

[@elsjemassyn8921]

Its impossible that the 66 books are all there is Even the new testament says that if all that jesus did had to be written down there would not be enough books to contain it. And its amazing how male dominating all writings are. This is questionable. Important experiences like Enoch and Noah had are placed in a nutshell where useless wars and atrocities were written down in book after book. Questionable. The letter J did not exist before 2016. Jesus name had to be Iesous. We can go on and on. Not the word of God. Its the word of man The only prophets I find believable are Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Amos, Hosea.

[@MrSeedi76]

There are more gospels actually. But the earliest ones were chosen for the new testament. The reason for their even being a new testament canon was the canon of the heretic Marcion.

[@SNORKYMEDIA]

gotta love that slavery....

[@paulhaynes3688]

Books of fiction start reading non fiction

[@ElficGuy]

The message is an abomination

[@JosiahTheSiah]

The Message is a paraphrase 👍

[@ElficGuy]

@@JosiahTheSiah Nope, it's a sectarian sermon disguised as a paraphrase.

[@JosiahTheSiah]

@@ElficGuy Ah, I see.

[@ElficGuy]

@@JosiahTheSiah look into it

[@JosiahTheSiah]

@@ElficGuy If you have a resource, I'll look into it.