SECRETS OF THE IMPOSSIBLE TUDOR PORTRAIT | Art history documentary | Tudor history documentary

[@HistoryCalling]

Which of the two versions of the portrait do you prefer and why? Let me know below and remember you can also find me at: BUY MY BOOK (Find Your Irish Ancestors Online): amzn.to/3Z2ChnG Website (with 2 FREE DOWNLOADS): www.historycallingofficial.com/ Patreon: www.patreon.com/historycalling Amazon storefront: www.amazon.com/shop/historycalling Instagram: instagram.com/historycalling/

[@kathat4235]

I like the 1572 painting, as it is a slightly more "realistic" portrait of Elizabeth I.

[@spicencens7725]

Always so well done! I prefer the original painting, maybe the colors are more vibrant, or it's not as gloomy looking as the 2nd one. Sorry but I have to mention Peace looks, in both paintings, to be pregnant. Maybe because her tunic is hiding her shape...

[@donnicholas7552]

I love art history! I like the second version the best, because it's a lot more colorful.

[@Shane-Flanagan]

@@HistoryCalling The second portrait circa 1590 is better more clearer but I'm so used to seeing it that seeing the original is like a novelty to me

[@S.K.Shirley]

The faces seem more realistic in the original painting, which is probably why I prefer it.

[@steviestarfire]

I’m a nurse and have had a hectic day. What do l get a notification for as I’m walking out of work? A brand spanking new HC video about some of my favorite subject matter. Now my ride home isn’t so long. Thanks HC, you’ve made my evening!

[@OkieJammer2736]

⚘ THANK YOU for all the service to others that you do. THANK YOU for putting up with 'ego', all the harping, tears and other fear-driven emotions from patients and especially family members. And THANK YOU for taking care of yourself, putting your own needs in the forefront so that you are filled up and smiling .. LOTS. You are appreciated. Blessings from Oklahoma.

[@mandaout2427]

Same! I did a 12 hour day but was so happy to see this video uploaded because I know I have this beautiful voice to tell me a story and help me get my head away from the hospital.

[@steviestarfire]

@@OkieJammer2736 that’s so sweet, thank you so much!

[@steviestarfire]

@@mandaout2427 agreed! HC’s voice has carried me off to sleep many a time, it’s so soothing.

[@HistoryCalling]

Aww, you're very welcome. I'm so glad to be able to help a little bit and I second the other comment thanking you for all that you do. :-)

[@gingersnap7822]

I 100% agree with your interpretation of the background settings. Elizabeth was an absolute master at imagery and propaganda and adding a Roman vs English juxtaposition is entirely in line with how she markets herself. If that spire *is* one of the tops of the White Tower, I also wonder if that's intentional. Didn't Henry have those added specifically for Ann? I wonder if it's a way Elizabeth could acknowledge her mother without physically putting her in the painting.

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, she was excellent at imagery. I strongly suspect the A pendant she wears in her first ever portrait (also the Family of Henry VIII) is a reference to Anne. I don't know about the spires though.

[@si_vis_amari_ama]

@@HistoryCalling Interesting. Perhaps the artist kept his head (scuse pun) and stopped short of the famous B pendant.

[@georgerobartes2008]

The pearls she wore in abundance to indicate vast wealth, were scales of a fish , the Dace , glued on dried peas .

[@georgerobartes2008]

Interesting in the early painting that Mary appears shackled at the wrist to Phillip and not holding hands like Elizabeth and Peace .

[@L.K.Rydens]

I think you are right about it being the Vatican vs England, especially because the artist has done the Da Vinci thing of using the horizons as messaging. The horizon on the Vatican side towers over Mary and Philip, reinforcing the view of them as small and controlled, and the Vatican powerful and overbearing in comparison. On Elisabeth's side however, the horizon is lower than the top of her head, making her seem bigger and taller, and therefore more powerful 😊🍀✨

[@HistoryCalling]

I really wish I'd thought of those points now and included them. Excellent analysis. Thank you! :-)

[@L.K.Rydens]

​@@HistoryCalling Thank you! 😊🍀✨🥰

[@amazinggrace5692]

Does the copy show the same buildings in the background or make more clear what buildings they were

[@L.K.Rydens]

​@@amazinggrace5692 It has the buildings but they look a bit different, but since it is a copy there is no way of knowing if the copier changed it or not, since they've made other changes as well 😊

[@ficfan3484]

I like the original painting more than the copy. Most people read images like they read words, for english speakers that means they start at the left side of the painting and will continue to the right. The direction of faces and bodies also push the gaze towards the right. I think the reason that Edward is the most plain is because he's designed to give one final push towards Elizabeth. Edward even matches the green curtains behind him. Then Peace and Plenty on the right side are facing towards the left, therefore stopping the viewers from moving past them and directly back to Elizabeth. The colors are actually very well done. Elizabeth is the most contrasting with the background and stands out. The only one who comes close is Henry and even he's given a red coat to blend in with all the red colors of the background. Peace and Plenty are a bit brighter colors, but they still are red with the background. Mary and Phillip are wearing dark colors because the gaze will move past them towards the contrasting Elizabeth. in the first painting, the artist did such an amazing job of making Elizabeth the center of the painting, even when she's not in the center.

[@HistoryCalling]

That's a great added layer of interpretation. Thank you. I wish I'd thought to add all that in. :-)

[@happycommuter3523]

I worked for many years in an office with an art historian, and videos like these make me feel like I’m back with her. Thanks for this terrific tutorial!

[@HistoryCalling]

You're very welcome. Glad I could give you a nice trip down memory lane :-)

[@chrisbanks6659]

Funny. I am slap bang in the middle of (re) watching Elizabeth R (1971) and have just finished the Walsingham / Mary episode. You have the uncanny knack of spooking me now and then. 😂 In a good way, of course. Carry on ......

[@HistoryCalling]

Ah, excellent show. An oldie, but a goodie. Speaking of spooking you, I just finished this year's Halloween video earlier today, so perhaps there's a good spooking coming in a couple of months when it's released too! :-)

[@Lionstar16]

So glad to hear this - Glenda Jackson is the standard I judge portrayals of Elizabeth I, she was so good

[@stephencarrillo5905]

Ah yes, I remember that series, Chris. Glenda Jackson was amazing. Carry on indeed. You're a better man than I; I usually get spooked just walking down the street. 😱😆

[@HistoryCalling]

Same here @Lionstar16 though I enjoyed 'Becoming Elizabeth' too and was sorry it didn't get a second season.

[@chrisbanks6659]

@@Lionstar16 She gave it all, didn't she? And is STILL the yardstick for all other portrayals.

[@pastalovertwentyseven]

Good video! I think I prefer the original painting, because their faces look more realistic, the perspective is slightly better, the sky is less gloomy and most importantly everyone is spaced out a lot more so the painting doesn't look so cluttered

[@HistoryCalling]

All very good, valid points. :-)

[@stephencarrillo5905]

👍I know this will be one of your videos that I'll rewatch more than once, HC. I like reading or studying with your voice in the background; it helps to provide a contemplative space. Walsingham - now there was a complex character. Have you ever considered him as a subject? Thanks for this thorough presentation. You rock! 🙏🏼

[@HistoryCalling]

Oh yes, all the major Tudor figures are on my list. It's just a case of finding time to get to them. Bio videos take a long time to put together. I did recently buy 2 biographies of Thomas More though...

[@stephencarrillo5905]

@@HistoryCalling Now that I would gladly wait for as your presentations are always excellent. 👍

[@chrisbanks6659]

@@stephencarrillo5905 And Robert Dudley. And William Cecil. And Anthony Babbington. And Uncle Tom Cobbley and all.

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, there are so many to get to. Someone said to me recently that they thought I'd exhausted the Tudors, but I thought 'I'm not even close!'

[@perniciouspete4986]

​​@@HistoryCalling Please deal with Master More and his treatment of Richard III gently, now. Remember, he was a saint.

[@Raven6794]

The painter of the second image has taken KZbin rules into account. Another very interesting video. The copy is more vibrant so I prefer that one.

[@HistoryCalling]

Exactly! They were way ahead of their time and saved me the trouble of having to add a modesty patch in Canva :-)

[@alioncosmic]

I love videos about Tudor art! I think I'd have to say I'd like the younger version more, I think the details are more defined and easier for me to see. I do prefer Elizabeth's 1570s dress in the elder picture, though.

[@HistoryCalling]

Ah, now that's interesting. I've had a lot of other people prefer the later dress so it's nice and refreshing to have a different opinion. Thank you :-)

[@jbu6429]

I like the first painting for myriad reasons, but primarily beause Pleanty is absolutely rocking that Mohawk!

[@HistoryCalling]

Haha! Well that's a fair enough reason to me as well.

[@eldelflowerwater]

I have a soft spot for the cooy because I saw it in the flesh as well.as the solo paintimg of Henry VIII. But nothing made an impression like The Ambassadors by Hans Holbein The Young that trip. Thanks again for another brilliant podcast 🎉

[@Peter-55]

Hi HC, great video. I’m with you, I prefer the copy mainly because of the more vibrant colours and detail.

[@HistoryCalling]

Thanks Peter. Yes, although of course I still appreciate the original too, but I do find the younger one more eye catching. Perhaps it would be different if I saw the earlier one in person (I have seen the later one in person and loved it).

[@Natasha-tu5qs]

Fascinating video. I actually think I slightly prefer the original. Whilst I agree that the colours aren't as vibrant (although perhaps they were much more so originally?), I think the overall composition and artistic skill is better. The figures look a bit less wooden and more natural in their poses. The colours blend together better and create a warn glow and ambience. The background architecture also looks slightly better to my eye. Overall, I just feel everything fits together better. Just my opinion to though. 😅 Thanks as always for your wonderful, quality analysis

[@HistoryCalling]

That's a totally fair argument. I def. think this is one of those 'eye of the beholder' situations where everyone will have different opinions and reasons. Of course, that's what makes it so fun :-)

[@paden1865able]

I'm wondering if the colours might be more vibrant if the varnish were to be cleaned up and restored during a few sessions of conservation work. I've seen videos of other historical paintings and wow, the before and after images are astounding.

[@FandersonUfo]

ty HC - the most important Tudor painting - very glad the Welsh wound up with it

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, it's stunning. I've always had a soft spot for it.

[@FandersonUfo]

@@HistoryCalling - indeed - I knew I'd seen a version with Jane too - great video HC

[@HistoryCalling]

You're welcome :-)

[@Anita-rq9ev]

Very well presented, your voice is beautiful 😊. I love everything about the Tudors, so this was a treat. Thank you dear HC 🙏

[@HistoryCalling]

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE VERY KIND DONATION ANITA and the lovely message. I'm glad you enjoyed my take on the painting. :-)

[@revgurley]

I always learn so much from your videos. Please keep it up! I know it's your passion, and you're sharing your research with us. Thank you!

[@HistoryCalling]

Thank you so much! Will do :-)

[@kiernan415]

Another amazing video HC!! Thank you so much for the years of education and entertainment you have provided so far! Oddly enough, a friend (my museum buddy) and I discussed the symbology of these portraits in depth about a decade ago and we came to very similar conclusions as yourself regarding the background on each side. The left side is likely Rome due to the most obvious clue of the big dome, but I think the imagery is deeper than that. This might be a stretch, but Rome's infamous seven hills, along with it's wall seem to be represented as well. The basic building in the forefront seems to be the southern tip of the Servian wall (based on the odd shape), while the all the protruding chimneys, towers, building tops and dome seem to represent the seven hills themselves. If you look at the topical map in wikipedia on the Seven Hills of Rome, you can also see that the the upwardly protruding features correlate well with the size and importance placed on each hill at that point in time. I'm not saying we're right, but it is what we came up with. The right side seems more straight forward with Westminster and it's courtyard in the forefront, either the Tower or possibly St. Margaret's to show religious tolerance (it was rebuilt by her grandfather Henry VII so ??) and then possibly Windsor in the background? I know that doesn't make much sense geographically, but Windsor Castle would have been powerful quintessential English imagery back then, especially for a Royal. Anyways, that's my best guess. As always, look forward to whatever you have in store for us next!!! 💜👑

[@HistoryCalling]

Thanks Kiernan. That was very interesting to read and I like the St Margaret's idea. Wish I'd thought of that! :-)

[@newfiejoe4998]

Just love your voice and accent! I can listen to you speak all day long. Your voice is by far the best I've heard ever in narrating. Keep the video's coming, I love it. 💓

[@HistoryCalling]

Wow, thank you so much. That's a lovely comment to read. If only I could get my family and friends to think of my voice the same way. I'm going to photograph your comment and send it to them on WhatsApp :-)

[@newfiejoe4998]

@@HistoryCalling Like I said, I really love your voice and accent. I would have given more compliments, however, I didn't want you to feel uneasy. Truth be told, If I had to do over, I would have married someone from your country. I myself am Canadian, British, from the island of Newfoundland. My parents were born under British rule and became Canadian after 1949.

[@ALA9E]

The guy from Scary Interesting channel had a nice voice aswell

[@seaottar25]

Personally I prefer the first painting. Although the colours are more vibrant in the second painting, it feels like the first artist had a better grasp of perspective and scale. The second artist made everyone look a little squashed flat, it feels like the royals are waiting in queue. For the colours, I think which painting people would prefer would probably depend on if they like warmer or cooler tones. The first painting is a lot warmer than the second, personally I prefer cooler colours so my ideal painting would be a combo of every feature from the first with colours that are more similar to the second.

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, your point about warm vs cool is a very good one. I'm sure that does affect a lot of people's opinions (my own included).

[@namaschu2126]

Especially your tudor content is always so interesting. A perfect history lesson👑

[@Rpboc]

I always love your content, thank you for taking the time to create and share these videos 🎉

[@HistoryCalling]

You're very welcome. Thank you for taking the time out to watch them and comment :-)

[@vernon2542]

Good evening HC, very interesting video. I like the second one better mainly for the reasons you do. I also think that the added figure is Will Sommer. I may have to go to Yale to see the painting. Looking forward to the next one. Thanks

[@HistoryCalling]

Oh yes, it's worth a visit to see the real thing. I was there back in 2017 and it was totally worth the 30 minute walk in the blistering sun to get there that I had to do from my guest house.

[@gillsinclair6927]

Thanks once again for your very helpful and enjoyable video.

[@HistoryCalling]

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE DONATION GILL. Glad you enjoyed my take on the portrait. I've always liked this picture.

[@gillsinclair6927]

@@HistoryCalling me too. I'd love even a postcard with it on.

[@franziskaohrt294]

❤ Thank you ❣️ great video n intresting Interpretation ❤

[@HistoryCalling]

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE VERY KIND DONATION :-) I'm glad you enjoyed my thoughts on the portrait.

[@franziskaohrt294]

❤ ​@@HistoryCallingI will spend some more time thinking about the background buildings 😂 then again even if they are previous versions of London that we dont know, your Interpretation reasons with me

[@Shelly-mz9yf]

Fabulous this piece of history, with quite striking art, and verbal knowledge, I thank you so much 😀

[@096Nat]

Painting analysis! Yes! For my part, given the context of composition of the second painting I cannot help but interpret the possible presence of Will Sommers next to Philip as a way to take a dig at him. His Spanish Armada may have been great but it is true that the whole affair was foolishly botched by Parma and Medina Sidonia, Philip's men

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, I definitely don't think that whoever that man is, his presence is meant to be good for the 'Spanish side' of the painting. I'd love to know for sure though who he is/was.

[@roywixson849]

Thanks!

[@HistoryCalling]

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE DONATION ROY. Glad you enjoyed my take on the painting :-)

[@amgymrat4546]

Not the best at commenting but wanted to say I love your videos and been here since you’re channel was wee small! ❤

[@helenvick522]

Thank you for your knowledgeable insights into the paintings. Great video.

[@HistoryCalling]

My pleasure. Glad you enjoyed it :-)

[@csh43166]

Very interesting!! I prefer the copy, for the reasons you stated. I don't know much about art and I really enjoyed this video - thank you!!

[@HistoryCalling]

You're welcome. I'm not an art historian myself, so researching portraits is always fun and different for me.

[@benjamintillema3572]

I think I like the softer colors of the original 14:00 and the contrast between the red and green on the wall.

[@AmynAL]

Such an interesting video! Elizabeth sure covered all her bases didn’t she? She made herself very clear. The picture speaks volumes! Have a great week ☺️

[@HistoryCalling]

Thanks Amy. Yes, she had a great eye for imagery, esp. her own.

[@Dlt814]

I feel like Henry VII may also have been left out (in addition to what you mentioned, Edward, Mary and Elizabeth's reigns were all by right from their father) because his right to the throne was also somewhat controversial. Much like the wives being left out, the painter didn't want to bring it up. My favorite painting is the latter. Mostly because Elizabeth's dress is incredible. Also because it's on this side of the pond and only a few hours from where I live. 😁 Wonderful video, as always.

[@missyme2673]

Wow. I absolutely love this video from you, HC! Thank you for your invaluable interpretation of the subtle symbolisms throughout both paintings. Upon first glance at the beginning of your video, I thought it was the famous painting of Henry the eighth, along with his three children and I think Jane Seymour (off the top of my head but I could well be wrong!) This is painting that I refer to hangs in the famous haunted gallery at Hampton Court Palace. These two paintings bare a striking resemblance to that one and it makes me wonder why all three even exist, when as you so rightly pointed out, that none of people in the paintings were actually alive at the same time -apart from his children. I love the propaganda that Henry is trying to portray by having that particular painting commissioned ( I'm guessing), but I wasn't aware of the existence of these two strikingly similar portraits. It's funny how every time I look at such paintings, I always spot something new to me and wonder why the artist included it in the painting in the first place.. I could look at these paintings all day! I'd say the first one is my favourite, I like the fact that Henry is passing the sword to Edward, and I agree with you about the Catholic and protestant symbolism in the background. They are all such an important part of our history, and I'm just grateful that they were not destroyed by Cromwell and his buddies! Thank you so much for this gem, HC, I absolutely love it! 😊

[@HistoryCalling]

I actually already have a video on the portrait that includes Jane Seymour, so I think you'd really enjoy that if you haven't seen it yet. I'm so grateful Cromwell didn't ruin these as well, though I'm sure he just wanted to sell them and get the money for them.

[@missyme2673]

​@@HistoryCalling I'm going to go watch your video on the other painting, and I'd be interested in seeing any similarities with these two.. 🤔

[@HistoryCalling]

Enjoy! :-)

[@lyndanickerson1373]

Thank you for the video

[@HistoryCalling]

You're welcome. Thanks for watching and commenting :-)

[@Shane-Flanagan]

Thank you HC. Fascinating video topic. I'm so used to seeing the circa 1590 portrait.

[@HistoryCalling]

You're welcome. :-)

[@porknbeans1977]

I prefer the copy, simply for that glorious dress Elizabeth's in. A 16th century power suit! Love the video!

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, I love that dress too. Don't like to think about how long it must have taken to get on though!

[@dianallewellyn9859]

Thank you for an interesting blog 😊

[@serenity6415]

This is a great style for history stories. I love it. How you narrate really engages me, which can be difficult. It's so natural-sounding. As for the paintings, when is the copy so much better than the original? So much more intricate. I wish we could see tbe original without the brown haze

[@leticiagarcia9025]

I’m weak when it comes to art history. I really appreciated this lesson. Now I understand the meaning of this portrait. I like this version best. Have you seen My Lady Jane on Prime? It’s meant to be satirical then real history. It had great reviews. I thought I wasn’t going to like it, but I did. The narrator was so funny. Thank you for the history lesson. 🖖

[@HistoryCalling]

I've just started watching it and really must get back to it. It seemed quite funny. If it's done in the vein of The Great, then I think I'll like it.

[@ShelbyPater]

Another great video. Very interesting. I m going with the copy. More vibrant to look at. ❤❤❤

[@HistoryCalling]

Thanks @ShelbyPeter. Yes, I have a soft spot for it too :-)

[@tonyk1584]

Interesting thanks

[@HistoryCalling]

Thanks for watching :-)

[@Bus_Driver_Jay]

There's a word in my comments that seem to keep pinging up and getting it deleted by KZbin.. I've commented on this around four times now. Amazing video as always! I like both paintings. Nice snapshot of the family together at the height of their strength, so to speak.

[@HistoryCalling]

KZbin just does that sometimes (Instagram too in fact). I've no idea why, but it's really annoying. I can see two comments at least. Congratulations on the scan. I'm glad everything's going well. :-)

[@judylapointe3507]

Thank you, I really enjoyed this video.

[@HistoryCalling]

You're very welcome. Glad you liked my take on the paintings :-)

[@simon112]

I prefer the later portrait HC, the colours are certainly more vibrant, also it seems less is more in the later portrait, thank you as always HC. ☺️

[@HistoryCalling]

Thanks Simon. Same here, though perhaps I'd change my mind if I saw the original in person. I saw the copy in New Haven a few years ago and have been very taken with it ever since then.

[@simon112]

@@HistoryCalling Thanks HC, I agree if you saw the original you would get a better perspective. ☺️

[@milyoti01]

I prefer the 1590 version. I also noticed that the English scene outside the window on the right hand side was better defined. At least that is what I can see. Thank you for your informative videos. I always enjoy them very much.

[@perniciouspete4986]

The verbal part of this presentation was excellent, as always, but the camera work was outstanding. Even I noticed.

[@HistoryCalling]

Thank you very much. It was a little tricky getting it to pan over the images in the way I wanted and switching between pictures, so I appreciate you noticing.

[@hellothere7948]

I think I like the original a little bit more because of the lighting. Also, I like how we have a new image of Elizabeth rather than her famous portrait we see in the second painting and how Edward is positioned in this painting. However, both are beautifully done.

[@SurferJoe1]

I wonder what we can learn from this painting about Elizabeth's real feelings towards her father, who didn't treat her well, and what a similar political statement by Mary might have looked like. If the ghost of Mary had commissioned a rebuttal, what might it have shown?

[@HistoryCalling]

I'm not sure exactly, but you can bet Catherine of Aragon would have been in there and probably no Elizabeth.

[@perniciouspete4986]

​@@HistoryCalling Knowing what I know about Mary, I suspect her version of the portrait would have in the far background a side view of the Tower showing Anne's head being chopped off.

[@EarlyMusicDiva]

I think Mary's version might have shown her giving alms to a poor person. Mary was known for her generosity to the poor of the realm.

[@beastieber5028]

Good evening to history calling from Bea 🇬🇧

[@HistoryCalling]

Hi Bea. Hope you're ready to dig into a beautiful Tudor painting today :-)

[@silvertbird1]

A Tudor two-for, who could ask for more? Very enjoyable, having the symbolism explained. I believe the first painting is technically superior, but I also tend toward the second.

[@HistoryCalling]

Thank you. Glad you liked it. Yes, I don't usually do a 2 for 1, but this one's special :-)

[@lfgifu296]

Hi! I’m a tad late lol but great video! Yk I love myself some Art History :) The painting itself is a proper propaganda piece for Elizabeth, though as someone who doesn’t like her much, it’s not one I appreciate that much, but your explanation of the meanings was rly good!! I also agree w the artist’s choice not to include any wives, w Elizabeth in power, to include anyone but Anne would’ve been pointless (and dangerous too, probably😭), but to include Anne was tactless. Have a nice week:))

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, she was very good with the old propaganda. Yes, it's telling that the only place Elizabeth had Anne appear with her was in a little ring, where no one else could see the double portrait.

[@DarthDread-oh2ne]

Fun fact 2: Sophia Alekseyevna was the half sister of Peter the great. She wanted to keep the throne within her side of the family. She was also a great admirer of Elizabeth I.

[@HistoryCalling]

Ah well, Elizabeth was pretty great. Can't blame Sophia for admiring her.

[@annmoore6678]

Thank you for this detailed analysis, which enabled me to appreciate these works more fully. I think I prefer the earlier one as a work of art, although that could change if I were to see the originals. For instance, Philip’s bright gold legs form a distraction in the later copy because the color balance seems to have been affected as the pigments aged and they seem too bright now.

[@HistoryCalling]

Haha, I'm never going to be able to 'unsee' his bright gold legs now! :-)

[@pbohearn]

What I like about the copy is that the entire group has been “moved closer to the camera,” so that they are larger, and their faces are more detailed.

[@SpringerA1984]

The hilarious irony being that by the sound of it Edward would've been a bloody tyrant to make Mary look like a benevolent saint in comparison. 😂

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, I think that's true. He was shaping up to be a very nasty piece of work I think.

[@jldisme]

I've never seen this painting before. Thank you for sharing! I wonder if the figure in the lower left of the copy could be a self-portrait of the unknown artist.

[@HistoryCalling]

Perhaps, yes! :-)

[@loewenalia]

Love your videos. Can you start working your family through the Medici family. I started reading about Catherine De Medici and am just blown away by her. I think that family is alot but it could be fun!

[@booknerdlover3675]

Fantastic video! I love the hidden meanings and symbolism in paintings. I have a question - does anyone know where those figures, who are dressed as Henry VIII and his wives, are located? I’d love to visit them!

[@killercharm]

Totally prefer the copy. The colors are dazzling and the figures are cleaner. I've always appreciated a good cover.

[@HistoryCalling]

Haha, well that's fair enough. Some covers do outdo the originals :-) I prefer the second Thomas Crown Affair film for eg.

[@annebutler5169]

Thank you loved the video. I prefer the 1590 copy. The colours are nicer. I think the original is very bright and I don't like the brownish colour tones. Elizabeth's dress is beautiful in the 1590 copy. ❤

[@ALA9E]

I like the older one, it is more proportional and the painter style is nicer, I also like the more muted colours

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, it's def. a personal choice. Others have said the same thing about the layout and the colour palette.

[@Lozzy64]

so so interesting thankyou, i prefer the copy mainly due to queen elizabeths exquisite dress x

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, I love her second dress more too.

[@AnnaAnna-uc2ff]

Thank you.

[@HistoryCalling]

You're welcome! :-)

[@shanenolan5625]

Thanks.

[@HistoryCalling]

You're welcome :-)

[@jackmason5278]

My preference is the copy. The colours are more vibrant, the faces seem more realistic, and the goddess of plenty didn't need to be covered up.

[@HistoryCalling]

Haha, yes, remembering to go put that modesty patch on was a bit annoying for me too. :-)

[@gonefishing167]

Most interesting, thank you. Not sure which I prefer , they’re both marvellous. Just to think of the age of them is enough splendour for me. Perhaps the original one, though I’m not sure why. Thank you 🙏🙏🙏👵🇦🇺

[@HistoryCalling]

You're welcome. Glad you enjoyed my take on it :-)

[@Bus_Driver_Jay]

Randomly I can comment again (I think) Amazing video as always, Dr. Ms History. I do like these paintings. There's always something weirdly magical about these. I like to think of them as time paintings, as they freeze various people at different times. I can't tell what of my comments have done and which haven't, so forgive me if I've already said and had it seen, but the scan was done and is on my account if you still wanted to nose. No gender yet, but we know their name of they're a girl.

[@eldelflowerwater]

Another excellent podcast! Any chance we could have a podcast on Wallsingham himself? Thank you🎉

[@HistoryCalling]

All those great Tudor figures are on my list. It's just tricky to get biography videos done, especially on people who lived a long life. They take AGES to put together.

[@robinpinkham9398]

The copy is my favorite simply because I prefer Elizabeth's dress. Looks much more majestic and she is my heroine ❤

[@faeriefruitcake]

I have read the glove is symbolic of the glove worn at the coronation and represents a marriage-like commitment to the kingdom. Very much Elizabeth’s thing.

[@silva7493]

I agree, the copy of the first painting is much better than the original. You don't see that happening very often.

[@lindyashford7744]

I prefer the original somehow the proportions and details are better thought out and more harmonious, even though it is not so sumptuous in the textiles and the use of colour. The first has some charm to it the second looks more self promoting. It also gives a sense of being something of a family remembrance while the copy looks like a political statement. Interesting video. I am a direct beneficiary of the small boy who briefly became king, having been a scholarship kid at the school he founded. He was of course the heir that Henry was so desperate for, who only lasted a few short years. Little did Henry know it was his daughter who would remain in the hearts of the nation as an example of English steadfastness, and thereafter it has always been our queens who have been such long lived and notable monarchs. If he had known that maybe he would have been a much better tempered king.

[@greybeardcanadian1036]

I agree with you, the second version is the more vibrant, though the classical figures look more classical in the original. Might the figure in the oval be someone connected the war with Spain? The person is, after all, positioned behind Mary, Philip, and Mars.

[@HistoryCalling]

Good idea! Maybe he is. I didn't think of that.

[@Nixijokenzi]

I prefer the original. I like the warmer colours. It seems to be more expressive also.

[@helenastanser9801]

I like them both but if you look at the painting from 1570 it is very yellow. Maybe the were more similar when the later was painted!

[@HistoryCalling]

Perhaps, yes. We do always have to take into account how age might have affected unrestored paint and its colour.

[@perniciouspete4986]

Perhaps the canvas needs cleaning.

[@lh384]

I wonder if the small portrait in the copy of the original painting is Henry Fitzroy, Henry VIII's only acknowledged bastard. There was some talk at one point of legitimizing him and making him heir, before he died so young.

[@HistoryCalling]

Personally I would doubt it, just because I don't think Elizabeth would have appreciated any reference which might have drawn attention to her own illegitimacy and I think including her illegitimate brother would have done that. You never know though.

[@edithengel2284]

I'm not sure how old the first painting is, but the second painting is dated c. 1590. By that time I should think that Fitzroy would possibly have been largely forgotten, and as HC says above, Elizabeth probably would not have wanted to revive the memory of her father's chaotic love/marital life. Furthermore, the face in the second painting appears to me to be too mature to be Fitzroy, who died in 1536 at age 17, only a couple of months after Elizabeth's mother was executed. Apart from anything else, Elizabeth was just under three when Fitzroy died, and perhaps never met him, or saw him only rarely.

[@maryloumawson6006]

Allegorical paintings such as this always make me wonder who's imagination we are looking at In other words would Elizabeth have commissioned the painting from the artist by saying "I want you to paint a representation of my family's succession from my father through my siblings down to me and I want to be associated with peace and plenty juxtaposed against their use of war and violence" Or would Elizabeth just commission the artist and given a general instruction like "an allegorical depiction of the succession" Just how much of the painting is the artist's choice and how could he be sure it would be viewed in the way he intended? The inclusion of Will Somers is intriguing I wonder if his portrait within the painting is meant to represent the "court"; that Elizabeth is surrounded by fools and only her superior intellect and leadership keeps enemies at bay and ensures peace Also in the Copy instead of pointing to peace Elizabeth holds an empty scabbard I wonder if the painter of the Copy thought this was a better indication of Elizabeth's peaceful reign than merely pointing a finger at the figure of peace? Or could it be a reference to the bare bladed knife that sits so precariously near Henry's groin? It' certainly a lot to consider Thanks for a great video! Oh and I like the original version because (to my mind) the figure of Elizabeth appears out of place in the Copy

[@HistoryCalling]

That's such a good question and I wish I had an answer. Elizabeth obviously did have a great eye for image and multi-layered meanings as we can tell from her many other portraits (it can't always have been just the artist's ideas that are appearing in them, particularly when she was sitting for the images in person). At the same time, I don't know how much input she had here, but I certainly wish I did. :-)

[@maryloumawson6006]

@@HistoryCalling Yes I often wonder - we have so many contracts and receipts for orders from monarchs and records of expenses for specific celebrations etc Such as state funerals or wedding feasts It seems odd not to have a contract for a commissioned work of art - for ANY monarch! But if we found such an order it could shed some light on some of these questions But I agree Elizabeth undoubtedly had major input

[@OkieJammer2736]

Will Sommers saw it all, even to the bitter end of HVIII, so his overlooking this fantasy gathering seems appropriate to me - even reminding the viewer of the irony that Phillip of Spain is the loser of his desiring to be King of England AND Spain's great losses in the Spanish Armada attack on England in 1588. I had no idea this even existed. 😊 I very much prefer this painting and want to see it in person.

[@HistoryCalling]

I wish I knew for certain if it's him though. It's just a guess on my part and some others here in the comments have made some very intriguing alternate suggestions. :-)

[@OkieJammer2736]

@@HistoryCalling Oooh. Will read the comments! 😎

[@zappababe8577]

Definitely prefer the original! The colours are lighter and it's not damaged or vandalised.

[@jenniferjones-ei8rg]

I find it interesting that Mary is standing much closer to Henry in the copy!

[@jenniferjones-ei8rg]

Also that Henry and Elizabeth are linked by the similar colour of their dress.

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, I wonder if there's some special symbolism to it (and the outfits) as well?

[@areiaaphrodite]

Another reason that I like that Mary was holding the red rose is because Mary is a double descendant of the House of Lancaster through her father and mother, Katherine of Aragon (via John of Gaunt).

[@HistoryCalling]

Ah, that's a good point! :-)

[@Shane-Flanagan]

Poor Mary, yet again getting a raw deal here in this portrait 😞

[@perniciouspete4986]

Poor Bloody Mary.

[@Shane-Flanagan]

@@perniciouspete4986 Yes poor Mary indeed. As for Bloody Mary, now where have I heard that before but not Bloody Henry or Bloody Elizabeth though mmmm

[@HistoryCalling]

Guess it's true that she who laughs (or reigns) last, laughs the longest. Elizabeth had a lot more time to plough into propaganda.

[@Harvest1966]

Awesome video! I never knew about this painting, so thank you for posting this. I'm wondering about the mysterious image in the copy. Could it be Henry Fitzroy? Please let me know what you think.

[@HistoryCalling]

I lean towards Henry's fool myself. I don't think Elizabeth would have wanted to see her dead illegitimate brother as it might have drawn attention to her own illegitimacy.

[@elisabethhopson5639]

Thanks HC. I prefer the original as the paintwork seems better to me. I suggest that the background on the right, behind Elizabeth1, could be the Castle Church in Wittenberg, birthplace of protestantism, with the storm clouds above. This would juxtapose the Vatican on the left. It could be any church in England though. What does Dr Owen Emmerson think?? 😁

[@HistoryCalling]

That's such a good idea! Maybe it is. You never know :-)

[@kkfiechtl667]

Me too I’m obsessed with the tudors

[@MisterJiminy]

Could the man seen in the copy represent Fitzroy, a path the throne never took?

[@HistoryCalling]

Personally I would doubt it, just because I don't think Elizabeth would have appreciated any reference which might have drawn attention to her own illegitimacy and I think including her illegitimate brother would have done that.

[@edithengel2284]

If Fitzroy's little miniature is anything to go by, the face in this painting doesn't look much like him to me.

[@LeahCary78]

❤❤❤

[@jldisme]

The multiple chimneys on the left make me think of Hampton Court Palace.

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, I see what you mean.

[@stephendavies6949]

Fascinating subject matter and very well presented. The subtexts have shades of The Last Supper painting. Elizabeth I knew a thing or two about propaganda and self-publicity. Sorry, but I prefer the original, mainly due to in the 2nd, Elizabeth looks like she's grown wings & the carpet no longer has that deep red/crimson colour. Also, the copier would not have known all the sublte and hudden meanings in the original, and therefore risks losing some of that meaning.

[@DarthDread-oh2ne]

Fun fact: Did you know, Tsar Alexei Mikhailovich was Tsar from July 12th, 1635-Aeptember 28th,1645-He was married two times. His first wife was; Maria llyinicha Miloslavkaya and the second, Natalya kirillovna Naryshina.

[@HistoryCalling]

I did not :-)

[@DarthDread-oh2ne]

Because he married two times. It cremated two branches of the family that was completing for the throne. ​@@HistoryCalling

[@HistoryCalling]

Erm, when you say 'cremated', do you mean 'cemented' (though you just never know with the Russians) :-)

[@DarthDread-oh2ne]

​@@HistoryCalling I meant create. Sorry.

[@DarthDread-oh2ne]

​@@HistoryCalling it's similar to the wars of the roses .

[@Lucius1958]

I wonder whether the figure of Mars might also be symbolic of how the Tudor dynasty began, with Henry VII winning the crown by force of arms...?

[@missfriscowin3606]

Reminds me of the Megan picture with the Royal Family fake 😢

[@HistoryCalling]

But the pictures of her with the other royals during the first 18 months of her marriage are real???

[@anthonycalbillo9376]

History and Dinner! Pork chops, beans, and potatoes! Can't forget the beer....

[@HistoryCalling]

I don't like beans and beer, but I'll take some pork chops and potatoes :-)

[@orlalavin9352]

I think its a lovely painting even though its impossible as you say

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, I've long had a soft spot for it too. It's great seeing them all together.

[@MissBee13]

Catherine Parr might also have reminded Elizabeth of her treatment by Edward Seymour.

[@EmilyGloeggler7984]

Oh that Henry… so much grief and misery could have been avoided, had he just waited and married Anne at a later time. Although, perhaps even if he had the self control and had been mature and responsible to be chaste (he never was, clearly), and had married Anne Boleyn or Jane Seymour, perhaps he still could have killed her - just for not giving him a son. Ironically, it struck me recently - can you imagine if he had been able to and married Diana? He would have been overjoyed that she had conceived and bore his heir and spare, and probably treated her with greater respect than her actual husband Charles did. That says a lot. It doesn’t excuse Henry for his wicked behavior, but it is quite sobering to contemplate. In the end, Henry’s line of legitimate children died out - as for his illegitimate children… well unless he DID father children with other mistresses including with Mary Boleyn, and they mistakenly were misattributed to those women’s husbands, then that line probably also died out - unless DNA evidence comes forward proving the link.

[@edithengel2284]

He really couldn't have married Anne much later, as she moved later into her thirties, and had any certain expectation of a child.

[@redemptivepete]

I always smile at the potential ructions in Westminster Abbey when the lights go out and the patrons leave! Mary Tudor buried below Elizabeth and Mary Queen of Scots next door! Rest in Peace? Probably not! Same at Fontrevault in France with Henry 2nd, Eleanor and Richard alltogether!

[@HistoryCalling]

I know. Mary Tudor would just HATE how things have played out.