Sects & Violets - Mutant Twin For The Win

[@wisquatuk]

I once Pit Hagged an outed Good Twin Savant into a Mutant. It was brutal. Now both the Good Twin and the Evil Twin were making up fake savant info, but both were trying to make their info a little more useful than the other in order to not be the one to get executed. Then our demon started sinking kills, convincing the good team that they had killed the demon and needed to choose a twin to kill. The Good Twin eventually cracked under the pressure, hinted too strongly that they were the Mutant (despite warnings from the storyteller), and got themselves executed, so evil won. I felt a little dirty about that victory, not gonna lie. 😅

[@rasmusforchhammer9557]

Amazing

[@AlexH274]

This is Alex from the unofficial, this sounds familiar to the game i was demon and we won to a pit-hagged mutant evil twin while i sunk kills. If we were both there, I'm so happy with how that ended for us, but it was Brutal.

[@segevstormlord3713]

That honestly sounds like a lot of fun.

[@katherineinskip9056]

I apologise for my language in this one... I drew snakecharmer in this game after two evil team losses where we played great but lost due to snakecharmer, so I was a little raw...! This was such a fun game though.

[@acgijzen]

After THAT previous week, understandable. Was a good time watching though!

[@skywillis]

'fucking fucktarts' is a hell of a catchphrase if you were to run with it lol

[@acgijzen]

@@skywillis put it on a T-shirt! Merch for days! Next to 'empaths aren't real!' And 'Starpass, signed, Patryk...'

[@eddielikesfish7114]

snake charmer is fr my least favourite character,,,, i have never been fully the demon because the first time i was the demon i got snake charmed NIGHT 1 and spent the rest of the game battling against the two minions :(

[@Matt-ov1qp]

It's remarkable how little information town shared with one another.

[@ST-jl2lh]

I think the reason that people keep accusing Hazel of interrupting is that she keeps interrupting people.

[@vaultdweller64]

This game of Sects & Violets was really intense. I’m glad it’s here for we the masses to enjoy! Thank you

[@micaldomlancer1494]

4:07 Aggie can't claim to be Mutant then get ST executed to prove. The reason why is that evil twin wins if their good twin is executed.

[@HoneyForcella]

At first I felt that this game was a bit unbalanced, but now I feel like a lot of good players played shady too long despite having so much info to the point, that they couldn't regain town's trust!

[@ChristopherFawbert]

I agree.. evil team played very well, coupled with good not sharing info enough meant it was a good evil win

[@IrishJaguar]

Evil Twin on the Mutant is hilariously evil 😅

[@CrowMercury]

The good team couldn't do more mistakes. Hazel messed the entire good team up, Aggie for some reason decided to never come out, Alejo the barber killing himself and not realizing that gave the Demon weapon to eliminate a good role and prepare a jump, and with all those informations they had just to sit down and talk but instead decided to go for chaos and lost.

[@lewisprice8616]

Townsfolk idea: spiritualist When it's in play the demon doesn't know they are the demon, they think they are a minion but they are poisoned e.g cerenovous can't actually make anyone mad, pit hag can't change people's roles etc. - evil knows the spiritualist is in play. When the spiritualist dies, the true demon is revealed to evil. The storyteller kills every night instead of the demon until the spiritualist dies. Any questions in the replies.

[@nathanglover8938]

It'd work better in a script with less visible minions - in S&V good tends to learn quite quickly which minions are in play, and therefore the evil team would quickly narrow down who the demon is. I like the idea, it's definitely got potential. A bit like the magician, but might actually work better in some scripts.

[@SharienGaming]

would be incredibly funny with a lil monsta XD

[@dmacartney]

Wow, how does Ben keep track of everything? Just reeling off the game like that, he must have some short term memory! Though possibly my fave bit was the streamlabs comment...

[@karlovisttimes8271]

"this one probably wont go on youtube"

[@zayfardplays7742]

Ben: this one probably isn't going on KZbin

[@nathanglover8938]

I woudl like to start a petition to make "I'm mechanically obliged to NOT fuck off" (at 1:34:10) the title track of the new indie band "Greedy Dreamer"?

[@irosteve4043]

At that final 3 couldn't they of voted out the fang gu no one dies at night and then they vote between the twins?

[@AlexH274]

that's what i thought too

[@irosteve4043]

@@AlexH274 and mathematically speaking good had a chance but if 1 good voted wrong they lost

[@kjinskipify]

No, two players alive and the game not ended is evil's wincon, even if demon is dead. The twins keep the game running. At two alive, evil win.

[@joshheimendinger6569]

If both twins are alive, good can't win. When there are 3 players left in the game, even if they did execute the Fang Gu, the game would immediately end (because the game always ends at 2 players). When there are only two players left alive evil wins.

[@Flossorapture]

I was very confused on how hazel played her madness role. Why did she make up a bunch of fake info and tell it to everyone? Why did she make herself a twin? I know you need to be mad about the role but, do you have to give out a bunch of false information unprompted?

[@comp.lex4]

In a lot of situations, if you claim to be a role that has info, people will expect you to be making the claim so that you can share the info. If you make the claim without sharing info, people might assume you're mad, which puts you in an awkward position of then having to make an explanation for why someone of your role would withhold, or else change your mind and make things up, both of which are harder than just making up info beforehand. Good twin is inexplicable to me but these veteran players love to make crazy bluffs on the good team for seemingly no reason. Tl;dr- if you aren't giving info, why would you claim? You must be mad.

[@RakkiXIII]

I was a bit confused too, but she explains why at around 1:36:00 basically she was under the impression that acknowledging the existence of a cerenevous would count as breaking madness, so she created parralel universe that would allow her to deny that a cerenovous was in play

[@meatonthebone7203]

@@RakkiXIIIShe took it too far though… She could have just made up “oracle” information supporting what she already should have known (Fang Gu that potentially could have jumped). You don’t need to completely rebuild the world and throw multiple good players under the bus just to satisfy madness.

[@hukoseft]

I was in a 14 player S&V. I was the klutz, got 'killed' night 2, my witch (also wife) comes to me says don't nom because I cursed you. We won because we got town to kill the klutz (pit hagged) and they chose me. The only good person alive at that point was the snake charmer who would've died that night unless they chose me. All other evil was alive save original demon.

[@Centrifuze]

June 18th?! Quit holding out on us, Daddy Ben!

[@acgijzen]

You can watch live on twitch, always a grand old time!

[@williamtoccijr9579]

I really want an invite to play a game with Daddy Ben as Storyteller…

[@RoderickEtheria]

Can the evil Evil Twin become the Evil Twin of the evil Demon given a Fang Gu game where the Fang Gu targets the good twin who at some point was an Outsider, or does something happen that prevents that occurance? Seems like people like to wait on narrowing down the twin pair until after the Demon is dealt with, and if that's the case, it is possible that they wouldn't want to kill the Demon until they found the Demon. If it's not possible, I assume that, the moment the good twin becomes the Demon of the Evil Twin, the Evil Twin changes who they are the twin of.

[@BloodontheClocktower]

The 'Evil Twin' and their twin partner can never be the same alignment, so if something happens that turns the 'twin' to the same alignment as the Evil Twin, then the Evil Twin is given a new partner. The same occurs if the 'Evil Twin' somehow changes alignment - they're given a new partner. This means that if a good Outsider is the evil Evil Twin's twin, and this Outsider is targeted by a Fang Gu and becomes the evil demon, then the evil Evil Twin will be given a new twin. At this point, it may become obvious to most players what has happened, who the real Evil Twin is, and who the new evil Fang Gu is - because a new player will be telling everyone that they are now the twin of the Evil Twin. This puts evil in a very difficult position, so a Fang Gu should think twice before jumping to an Outsider if that Outsider is also the Good Twin. Likewise, if the Evil Twin pair involves an Outsider, then both twins may want to keep quiet for a little while about being twins until they can figure out, together, whether it's a Fang Gu game or not, as it won't help either of them if the Outsider becomes the Fang Gu after they've publicly claimed to be twins together. - Evin

[@TheBlackamura]

Nicky N2 was painful 😭😭😭

[@cityslacker4]

Lucky the storyteller was there to help him out and negate Alejo's clever Klutz play

[@louisdesroches]

In fairness, most storytellers run the Barber swap at the first opportunity in the night if the Barber died during the day, which is before the Demon would target a player. That's where Nicky's confusion was coming from, and why he asked his question about before/after his kill.

[@cristianenriquegrimaldo3035]

Goodness me wasn’t it? Like Ben’s flat out telling you what happening and bro was stilllllll lost

[@Timlagor]

While secret twins might be more fun it's a tactic that massively benefits the evil player

[@BloodontheClocktower]

Not necessarily. It means that the good player can still be taken at face value by their team-mates, which often has more subtle benefits that aren't as apparent to the casual viewer. - Ben

[@Timlagor]

@@BloodontheClocktower That sounds like an argument for not ostracising twins rather than one for twins staying hidden from only one side

[@BloodontheClocktower]

I agree. But given that the Good Twin cannot actually control how everyone else responds to them, and given that we're discussing strategies and not ideals, I feel like my point still stands. - Ben

[@Timlagor]

@@BloodontheClocktower I'd say in an extended prisoner's dilemma you should play for the longer term advantage but in the longer term you could be Evil anyway which complicates things (though will be in more ET games as good but if you're not the twin you can choose to talk to them even in a Coventry meta)

[@ab-mc2nq]

i really wish ben had just let nicky make that mistake with the barber swap

[@ab-mc2nq]

yeah i was really enjoying this video until ben just killed alejo's amazing bluff

[@michaelkaram467]

​@ab-mc2nq it was more mechanical as on snv there is no way Nicky would be the alive demon at that point if Nadine was barber and when there is a rules misunderstanding it is always best to explain it to the players especially if your already in play

[@lisasyoutubeaccount]

What would you have done if Navean had cerenovoused Aggie the mutant to be mad as the klutz? I am surprised that didn't happen, sounds like a guaranteed win??

[@BloodontheClocktower]

Oh wow. This game took place over a year old, so I have no memory of it and can only guess at what you're referring to. But it's worth noting that Cerenovus and Mutant only say "may be executed", so it's not a guaranteed execution.

[@shotosynthesis312]

It doesn't guarantee because they might not be executed but it'll probably look really sus and might lead to the win if the ST doesn't feel that evil deserves the win from that

[@vibes5805]

What does star-passing mean?

[@BloodontheClocktower]

It's a slang term (borrowed from Roller Derby) that players sometimes use to describe the act of the Imp attacking themselves in the night and passing the Imp role onto one of their minions. - Ben

[@vibes5805]

@@BloodontheClocktower Thanks Ben!

[@mikepictor]

I am still trying to figure out why the game ended and evil won. It was final 3

[@sofiipote7]

just quoting an answer to the comment above yours that explains this perfectly: "If both twins are alive, good can't win. When there are 3 players left in the game, even if they did execute the Fang Gu, the game would immediately end (because the game always ends at 2 players). When there are only two players left alive evil wins." - Josh Heimendinger, 1 year ago (lol)

[@Timlagor]

Could have made Noel a Traveller

[@picturesintheair]

Is there any way I can join a game? I don’t have a group of friends big enough to put together a game. Wondering if there’s any groups that host games I could jump In on. I really wanna play this game

[@diserious]

I've heard that there is an unofficial clocktower discord channel where anyone can join to play games

[@picturesintheair]

@@diserious yes I actually played a game with a group from Ohio

[@goldenheart918]

Not the 23 cents😢

[@Benusr]

I say if a character is *executed* due to madness as the good twin be it Cerenovus or Mutant... The game should be over and the Evil team should win, because the Evil twin's ability is if they are *Executed* then their team loses.

[@ericslingerland5472]

I feel like Hazel just straight up threw this game for good. spent so much throwing out false info and and killing good players just to hedge that there was a fang gu and she got selected? a snake charmer tries that kind of thing and i get it, its literally how the class is designed and doesnt depend on a specific demon being in play and picking you. The rest of the teams played really well but that was so frustrating to watch

[@kloaf1131]

Well when your mad your an info role you have to sell that your an info role. The town new of a ceranovous and there was an oracle to counterclaim. They had more than enough information to discord that information

[@MrBlbll]

hehe tarts

[@Steev42]

Evil wins by killing themselves. Nice.

[@masondeross]

The job of the storyteller is not to make the game fair for either side or any kind of abstract notion of balanced. The ST job is to use every tool available to them within the rules of the script to ensure both teams survive to final 3 (accounting for potential kills making that happen faster than expected), and for both teams to have as legitimate path to victory that the team can muster with the best effort attempts of the ST to keep them in play. Ben does his job very well, and it was goods game to lose by knowing they had a twin and a demon alive and still letting the game proceed to final 3. A lot of Twitch chat seem to think it is about winning or losing, but the ST is only losing if the game ends early (in a way that isn't fun for both sides). Whenever it is up to them to decide deaths, the ST should make sure the most trusted evil player and the most shady good player survive and whichever team made the subjectively best plays has the 2 vs 1 (unless it will make it too obvious who the demon in, then they should absolutely stack demon + minion vs 1 good, if it is the only way to keep doubt on the table, even if it means "punishing" a good team playing well; obviously they weren't playing THAT well if having two evil alive means they can't pick the demon without the ST proving outright which one it is by killing the only other viable option). And it is pretty rare for the ST to even have that kind of power, unless they do something silly like make the demon sweetheart drunk which would actually be egregiously bad ST'ing to hobble one side that much mechanically in the final night when they have the option not to do so (i.e. not a player using a direct, guaranteed power; obviously a sailor trying to drink with the demon would drunk the sailor etc, but an alchemist assassin clearly has to be allowed to kill the demon in the night etc). I personally would probably never play a game like this, so don't take my assessment as any kind of statement of my opinion or preference; this is just the demonstrable role of the ST in this particular game that the players are all choosing to play (and thus should be expecting). Twitch chat seems to think the ST is meant to be impartial or merely a referee; not so at all. The Blood on the Clocktower ST's are meant to be pulling all the levers and strings they have to both prevent the game ending early or being a slam dunk final 3 demon choice, otherwise they might as well be playing Werewolf. The rules specifically exist for the Storyteller to make sure a story is told. This is my understanding of the game as someone who has never played it and does not like to manipulate people or bluff; I would just leave in shame and never play again if I drew an evil token. I could never do it. But it is fascinating to watch, because of the way social deduction games demonstrate how easily a small amount of bad actors sharing information can distort the worldview of a larger group; and when the good actors don't trust each other and don't actively share their limited information, they are doomed to failure.

[@wafersmash338]

Kat and Hazel kinda bullied this game. It would have been hard for me to keep up with anything

[@Timlagor]

Those looping gifs are REALLY annoying!