Seer Stones, Folk Magic, and Alvin’s Hand - The History of Joseph Smith's Treasure Digging

[@wwrk25]

I worked with a Pentecostal Minister who would mock about the seer stone but he had no problem with himself being a water witch and helping members of his congregation drill for water.

[@monus782]

As someone who's never been Mormon I don't care that much whether Smith was a fraud or whether he believed in what he said (the Book of Mormon already has enough problems on its own) but listening to this is why I'm fascinated with the guy, his work gives me a small glimpse to what early 19th century America was like and how people thought at the time. As usual thank you for this podcast.

[@inesdelong5896]

As A Christian I've been talked to only liste to God's word. Anything out of that is from the devil.

[@koltoncrane3099]

Ine How do you know what’s god word though? The dying Roman Empire made the Bible and chose which books to include.

[@merivalefreya7064]

my husband (who was losing his faith in the bishopric) got me to listen to this episode on new years eve 2017. I only listened because Bill still had his temple recommend. I didnt want to hear anything anti-mormon. By the end of this one episode I knew the Church wasnt true and I never went back. i have listened to 1000s of hours of podcasts and read many books on Mormon history since. My husband and I and our 4 kids are living a beautiful happy loving life after leaving the Church. ❤

[@allanlopez3850]

sister even Joseph sold in Egypt also uses a seer stone that's why he answer the King's dream even enoch uses seer stone, adam too.

[@chriscross5188]

@@allanlopez3850 where do you get this from? Certainly not from the Bible. If you get it from Joseph's alleged revelations, this only shows another topic, where he put his stuff into God's mouth. In the Bible no prophet needs a seer stone to hear from God. The apostles in the New Testament did not have seer stones to get their revelations (Paul and John). The bible warns about occult stuff. We should have nothing to do with magic. Blessings!

[@koltoncrane3099]

Chriscross Bless your soul! You’re concerned that Joseph messed with stories of the Bible. Trust me if you’ve ever read the Bible then you’ll know the Bible has MAGIC AND OCCULT in it. Have you ever read about Moses turning his stick into a snake? That was magic. When Moses smote a rock and water came out that was magic. When god helped Jacob by turning his father in laws cattle from spotted to strip etc that was magic. And the Bible also has weird like pedofile type stuff but worse. Remember god killed judahs two sons cause they wouldn’t knock Up their sister in law. Anyone can make fun of the Book of Mormon but then if they support the Bible they’re simply showing they suffer from cognitive dissonance obviously not applying the same type of logical scrutiny tk the Bible as they did to all things Mormon. The god of the Bible condoned incessat which is just way weirder then in my opinions Mormons doing polygamy.

[@1fishinghuman208]

This is amazing information, thanks very much for all your time putting it all together. God bless.!

[@utah133]

The whole thing sounds like a story by Washington Irving who wrote about the folk magic in that period and area.

[@sluggo562]

I think when they said there were five stones, they were describing the three known and presuming that the eyeglasses object described by Oliver also existed. I think Oliver made up the eyeglasses due to being concerned outsiders wouldn't accept the miraculous abilities of the existing stones or was describing a plan he had to install the first two stones into an apparatus which never came to fruition.

[@joehair4220]

THIS IS AN INCREDIBLE STORY THANKS FOR THE VID

[@TheAdamsforever]

Great episode

[@natureisguru7449]

Recommended books to learn about joseph's folk magic practices and related traditions at the time?

[@martybaggenmusic]

To have a successful religion and a large group of faithful followers, the first thing you need to have is an elegant portrait of a rock.

[@lawpenner]

The wise man built his house upon the rock

[@Storm2458]

Sounds like witchcraft to me, especially the part about sacrificing dogs.

[@rmt3589]

You know sacrificing animals isn't a witchcraft only thing. (Read Genesis) I'll also mention that witchcraft is specific, not a catch all for anything supernatural. "Magic"/witchcraft had a different meaning in biblical context than it does now, as even God can be called magic by the modern definition. For example, being a medium isn't witchcraft, but is a sin. (Saul hired a medium to get someone's advice, after the Lord refused to help him)

[@lawpenner]

​​@@rmt3589iblical animal sacrifice was done to appease the unseen, which is akin to witch craft. All human, child and animal sacrifice to appease the unseen is abominable, on its face. The gods of the Old Testament were angry jealous wrathful murderous gods. Would a loving Father in Heaven command the murder of swaths of people. No. The preaching that Jesus of Nazareth was the Old Testament God Yahweh or Jehovah is false doctrine. The LDS Church is full of False Doctrine. Like proxy baptism being necessary for the dead. Or Native Americans dark skin being a curse of sinful Lamanites. No. So....Much....False Doctrine. Members believe this stuff at face value because of the belief that God the Father and Jesus appeared to Joseph, therefore everything Joseph says, no matter how ridiculous, must be true, even if it flies in the face of logic or morality. Like taking other men's wives for marriage. Well the good news is evidence shows the First Vision didn't happen as described, and Joseph didn't translate an actual historical record. So you can set aside blind obedience

[@andreatimmers1720]

​@@rmt3589No animal sacrifice is demonic. Wake up. Christ died for our sins animal sacrifice is no longer required. This Smith was such a piece of shite.

[@archangel_one]

It's all kinds of witchcraft, necromancy, divining, wizardry, etc. Moroni's name means "by the river" Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

[@archangel_one]

@@rmt3589 Magic is kind of like "anti-miracles". It includes deception, and evil, disturbing deeds. Its source, if real, is from the unclean spirits/devils. It's like deadly radiation. Miracles are pure, good/holy, and their source is God Himself.

[@koltoncrane3099]

This dude has a point. A ten year old would think it’s cool that Joseph translated with a seer stone in a hat but it’s the church leadership that was freaked out. I remember reading some quotes by some prophets after Taylor or woodruff. The guy basically says there’s no way Joseph would use evil things like peep stones and would only use the urim and thumim. It’s like one could rationalize and say obviously god made them both or the seer stone could be just as divine as the urim and thumim. Like that’s a leadership problem for the changes in ideas that happen over time. Makes me think of caffeine and the word of wisdom. Recently like a year or two ago the church was like vaping is bad and not church supported because there’s nicotine in it. I pulled my hair haha. It’s like science has proven the carcinogenic stuff in tobacco that causes cancer. It’s not the nicotine. But the church supports caffeine which is basically the derivative of tea or coffee. It’s like maybe the church never banned caffeine cause they’d lose half their membership idk. That’s probably the real reason. But I was shocked to read byu was now against kava which was basically the church supported root version of beer. People be like it’s not alcohol which is true but the effects are similar just ask a Polynesian.

[@pamelamitchell1765]

I think that it is fair to say that Joseph had the biggest stones ever. There is no credible evidence that Joseph came up with the story that he needed to bring Alvin to the hill the next year (1824) before Alvin died Nov. 19, 1823. There is also no evidence that it was Joseph himself who dug up Alvin's body in 1825. In my opinion, Joseph would not have done so because he knew he just made up the story about the necessity of bringing Alvin. I agree with Dan Vogel that Joseph Sr.'s excuse for digging up the grave to see if it had been disturbed is ludicrous because it would have been obvious from a casual inspection whether the ground had been disturbed and that Joseph Sr. likely dug up the body to take it or some part of it to the hill. Joseph Sr. likely placed the notice in the paper about the rumor that the body had been disturbed to cover his tracks after he had dug up the body. For anyone to take these stories seriously is just insane/

[@tucuxi70]

Josiah Stowell requested Joseph Smith's help in locating an ancient silver mine In the spring of 1825 Josiah Stowell visited with Joseph Smith "on account of having heard that he possessed certain keys, by which he could discern things invisible to the natural eye." [1] Josiah Stowell wanted Joseph to help him in his quest to find treasure in an ancient silver mine. Joseph was reluctant, but Stowell persuaded Joseph to come by offering high wages. According to trial documents, Stowell says Joseph, using a seer stone, "Looked through stone and described Josiah Stowell's house and out houses, while at Palmyra at Sampson Stowell's correctly, that he had told about a painted tree with a man's hand painted upon it by means of said stone." [2] Joseph ultimately persuaded Stowell to give up looking for the mine Joseph and his father traveled to southern New York in November of 1825. This was after the crops were harvested and Joseph had finished his visit to the Hill Cumorah that year. They participated with Stowell and the company of workers in digging for the mine for less than a month. Finally Joseph persuaded him to stop. "After laboring for the old gentleman about a month, without success, Joseph prevailed upon him to cease his operations." [3]

[@allanlopez3850]

my question is where that seer stone power came from? please tell me.

[@lawpenner]

The seer stone has no power. Its just a rock used as prop to tell stories from. No treasure was ever found by it.

[@NamesPhimble]

Jinn , people work with them and the jinn show them things that’s how all magic works . You trade monotheism for “power”

[@inesdelong5896]

Where do they find these stones?

[@bbanne9142]

“The enchantment would move the treasure” mounting in endless digging for poor fools? That’s sounds like the beginning outline for church followers.

[@jamescrane6583]

Why do you continue to use the euphemism "messy" ?

[@southtexasmom3017]

Seems pretty descriptive to me. What would be a better term in your opinion @James crane?

[@jamescrane6583]

@@southtexasmom3017 fraudulent... False...

[@utah133]

Mormonism is messy. It's a perfect word for it.

[@rmt3589]

@@jamescrane6583 Both those place a bias, and have a completely different meaning. Another context: Law school is messy. Does that mean it's fraudulent or false, absolutely not. It'd be like talking about fruit, and replacing "juicy" with "rotten". Fruit can be both, it can be one or the other, or even neither. Swapping the terms just leads to mislead. Plus, this is informative, not persuasive. It's the difference between "some people drink milk" and "hateful people drink milk". True or not, it changes the meaning and attempts to convince people instead of clearly laying out facts.

[@jamescrane6583]

@@rmt3589 the church makes a claim. The claim is not true. The church knows it us not true. The church is not mistaken. The church is not misinformed. The church is trying to maintain claims that are demonstrably false. That is not messy. That is not a bias. That is false, and fraudelent.

[@cmotherofpirl]

I cannot believe anyone could take this seriouly.

[@MormonDiscussion]

Millions currently do

[@cmotherofpirl]

@@MormonDiscussion and that is the tragedy.

[@inesdelong5896]

None of th here came from God. This is an abomination. Thank you.

[@danielkrawczyk7769]

If you think this is incredible you are in self deception by aggrandizing what the Bible warns us about dealing with spirits

[@utah133]

You believe things in the Bible? Ha!

[@danielkrawczyk7769]

@@utah133 the judeo Christian records at least have some cultural validity in cultural knowledge ethos and morality

[@VelvetJazz]

Exactly, it’s just demonic BS.

[@vaktomhu]

WTF??? After articulating all this folk magic nonsense you come to that conclusion???

[@VelvetJazz]

The Book of Mormon is 85% King James Bible. If you encountered any truth in it, it came from that. Of course, Joseph had to edit it to make it his own particular (not Christian) gospel.

[@lawpenner]

85%?? ...You just pulled a number outta your butt

[@Testeverything521]

The right number is 15%

[@mikestroud9969]

Well well. It comes down to believing that The Golden plates were taken back up to Heaven ?? 😂😂. 🙉🙊🙈. Its a no brainer for me. Joseph Smith was a con man. Folks are brainwashed. Sorry for the Truth. 😢😢. I went to the Mormon church for 2 years , years ago. I was Baptized there. They tried to control my life. Im glad i woke up and left. Good folks there though. 😊😊

[@Thesortvokter]

As someone who suffers from religious trauma syndrome from christianity, diving into the absurdity of mormonism is pure therapy! 😁