Sensibly Speaking Podcast

[@Emilymk97]

It is refreshing to see people intelligently argue opposing views and amend their POV when appropriate. Not only did I learn a good deal from this video but my respect for your manner in keeping the main thing at the forefront increased, Chris.

[@ChrisSheltonMsc]

Thank you. Yes, it can be done! LOL.

[@HelenaVanCity]

My favorite part of this interview is Dylan's pup in the background :))) I've been binge watching scientology documentaries for the past two or three days, just out of curiosity; so, information-wise I didn't learn much new from this one, but I certainly found the discussion very interesting and useful for anyone capable of critical thinking. Thank you, Chris, Dylan, and the puppy! :)))

[@eggman969]

Hey Chris, I know it’s been a while, but what’s the chance of another Dylan Gill interview? I find him to be one of the most fascinating ex Scientologists. His insider perspective is so interesting.

[@Oxxyjoe]

All the scientology gives this conversation a depth that surpasses any that I've heard in your other conversations. Dylan is a skillful and joyful communicator. It's why you two are still at it, in my opinion. Because your endurance and patience related to navigating things is nice to hear. We can't be blamed for things that aren't within our control. I was never in scientology, and yet the way you two talk about a big-picture toward a bright future, simultaneous in one's mind with a stringent and futile-feeling uphill climb, communicates across well. My own exposure to Scientology consists of a single encounter with a man standing in a mall, who reminded me a fair bit of, say, a Mormon. 1996ish, Dallas Texas. And then later, I found a 1$ paperback copy of Dianetics in a used book store. The cover and even just the name were compelling. It seemed fishy then. Mind you I was a Baptist and that I evaluated it at first glance as humanistic, and therefore doomed to fail since anything that wasn't based on Christ was missing the most important thing of all. (And by the way, 10 years later around 2006, I was no longer Christian. Not even in spirit, even though of course I believe in being ethical and in certain spiritual truths as you might say) That book was basically a relic on a shelf next to other relics. In a very vague way I had this concept that there were hippies and there were these diametrically-opposed-to-hippies people. Right brain and left brain, I suppose. (pardon me.. I think out loud sometimes) I could only read about 4 pages of the book. But I wasn't intelligent enough then to be able to say whether that's because it was too advanced, or, because it was too idiotic. And isn't that slightly scientology in a nut-shell? It challenges you in strange ways. Yet those are stupid ways too. Lots of beating sand with a hammer one might say. Anyway I digress lol. Except to say that on one hand, the 1950s was a time of extreme paranoia that was coupled with extreme faith. People were deeply troubled and uprooted, who wouldn't look all that closely at what's going on but swooned to things that could give them a feeling of traction and reassurance. And on the other hand, how is any other time necessarily different? I mean in 2021, there are scary aspects. There's the news. There's social upheaval. There's HUBRIS, which I feel like IS scientology. But there's also Hubris everywhere else. Which makes you relevant, in that, your mistakes can educate others. But who shall you educate? It's a responsibility not to just "get to it!," as the fanatics would say, but also to see between the lines, have discernment, have humility too, and so forth. TL;DR Dylan's enthusiasm is fantastic and it's amazing that you two have such stamina even about this organization that basically tried to grind you down!

[@freedomfields75]

Great interview, I hoped you could get Dylan on, he’s so informative & a lovely guy. More please! I know it’s been covered already but it would be good to hear Dylan’s exit story on your channel too.

[@sdidora5]

Chris is number one of podcasters imo

[@khallo151]

What a fascinating take on “true believer”. Almost like the spats about what being a “Christian”’sounds like. So refreshing to have you both hearing each other, dissecting the similarities and differences.

[@khallo151]

Not that yours was a spat. Yours was what others should model off of

[@farmerboy2490]

Damn guys that was packed with eye opening information, more please! I especially liked your summaries at the end. Dylan has got it right, more solvent all around, cheers🥂

[@trollhunter6421]

Sorry, but I gotta admire the dog sleeping in the background! I love the Shepherd breeds and that one looks like Australian Shepherd.

[@khallo151]

Wow what a deep dive. This is going to take a couple of times to get everything. Thanks for the extra tidbits

[@thesaint5619]

Love your channel Chris so interesting and informative .

[@inspiredblue]

I really love these long interviews. I listened to yours then went back and listened to Aaron’s. Dylan is awesome.

[@chuckbeattyo]

1:04:30 it was routine during the deccades I was in the Sea Org for absolutely a Sea Org member going to the RPF to turn over their hat and do the turnover. Chris, there are hundreds of exceptions to every one of the hard bound conclusions people in earlier and later years, I've learned, in all direcitons, exceptions. (One, even when Bruce Bromley, RPF Bosun blew the Int RPF at Happy Valley, Greg Wilhere talked him back, and Bruce didn't get in trouble, he had to do lower conditions, but nothing worse, for blowing, and when Greg Wilhere came to chat with us, he told us a time on the Apollo when LRH was walking the decks and passed an Apollo RPFer and when the RPFer didn't speak to LRH, LRH told him it was okay to say "Hello Sir" to LRH, even when the RPFer tried to tell LRH that the rule said he couldn't speak to LRH first. LRH just tossed the rules, and there are just as many exceptions to the Hubbard rules, as there were Sea Org members who were on the Apollo! PAC's hardbound fads even changed up and down over the years I was in and out of PAC, me from 1983 up through 2003, I saw a whole shift to the more creepy robotic Sea Org members of today, way duller robotic members of the Sea Org in PAC today, scared to even think it seems, when I see photos of them going to and fro around big blue. What a mess Hubbard created, and people stuck in it have no idea of how much Hubbard violated his own rules, and reversed himself on big and small matters which he'd priorly set in stone with his own policies and orders. He created this whole damned problem. In hindsight, Hubbard's full corpus taken into mind, I think of how in "Typewriter In The Sky" novelette the "God" in the sky is a writer at a typewriter, and the hero in the story is living out the script of this God writer of the story that the hero is living. At one point the God writer changes the whole story, and the hero's whole world dramatically changes. To me, that novelette story ought to be the Scientology movement's key strategy, and just tear up the whole Scientology story, and rewrite the future, following this Hubbard "order" of this novelette.

[@AtypicalPaul]

This was awesome! Have you done other videos with him?

[@scoobykitty]

Great interview! I saw Dylan's interview with Aaron,and I was really glad to see he's doing well. I have also always believed that David Miscavige is a true believer. When the highest executives first left the sea org,most of them were saying he believed in BT's and suppressives. I don't know if you saw the interview between Ron Miscavige and Brian Lambert. In it,Brian Lambert read LRH's description of a good leader,and made the point that David Miscavige is behaving exactly the way LRH had instructed. I think he decided the tech didn't really work,but he followed LRH'S directions on how to rise to the top,and that worked for him 100%,so he still believes. I have heard others, who were once loyal scientologists, say they never really believed in full OT powers,but they found other parts of Scientology worked for them.

[@catman4471]

Where does Golden Era Productions hold it's annual film festival? Cans!

[@ChrisSheltonMsc]

Happy dance.

[@candiceyoung8244]

Great interview, and btw love the doggies 🐕🐶😁

[@cynthiaejiogu8442]

Hey guys! Great interview 💪💪

[@debbiesunlight7047]

I love ex Scientologist s. They are good people it seems.

[@TerriJFreedman]

Wow, this was one of the most insightful videos I’ve seen, especially at the end identifying how the scam really works to suck people in. Amazing job to you both!

[@SheNiteOwl]

Most interesting interview. Now you both have me thinking about what DM really is thinking. I actually never thought he was still a believer but maybe he is.

[@marysieders8166]

I would like to hear you interviewing Chuck Beatty. Sounds like he has a lot of knowledge about Hubbard, Miscavige and earlier history in the SO.

[@chuckbeattyo]

1:03:00 I think it's easier to just say that any administrative echelon of Sea Org (CST included) will use the Hubbard administrative bureaucracy staffing chart principles, and divide up their duties to the generic Hubbard administrative chart patterns. (I myself revised the 1993-94 Author Services Org board and it was approved by Shelly, it's just Hubbard bureaucracy details is all it is). Hubbard administrative writings for the Scientology multi-echelon units have generic similarities. It's just bureaucracy fiddle faddle, but Hubbard "organized" and consistent through the echelons, fiddle faddle. It's all quack subject administrative labelling consistent with Hubbard's mentality, so it's all very indicative of Hubbard's mind, in the end of the day, and even to the fact that CST was Hubbard's longest range earth bound physical goals, to preserve Hubbard's writings/lectures/films legacy in imperishable form. Whether all the bureaucratic jargon labels need detailed spelling out, to us who know each and every one, and to us who even did our share of the paperwork writing of the various echelons' "org boards" and so forth, it's fiddle faddle. I just tell people who want to know, there are just ungodly numbers of Hubbard administrative rules to utilize to label every staff position (and the history of changes that Hubbard made to the staffing position locations within even his bureaucratic units is a whole history, and plays significant when you accurately tell how high up on the totem pole someone is in the history of the scientology administrative hierarchies in the history. A whole lot of fiddle faddle, but if you wan to go there, that's something my job in my 27 years in the nutty cult top bureaucratic ranks, I closely kept up with, and I still keep up with. I did admin fiddle faddle theoretical crap 1977-1986 straight, then off and on to the end, even on the RPF's RPF we sometimes had 5 hours study, and I re-read all of Hubbard's administrative crap again. It's all administrative rules pushing and fixing the inevitably guaranteed to fail overall movement. There are no "OT" superior souled persons coming off the end of this whole Hubbard "OT" making assembly line. It's a long engulfing con. To which, you'd have to read the boo "Going Clear...." final pages, to even get a tiny respite from the Hubbard madness, and learn in the final months of his life, Hubbard did have some moments of despair and thought he had failed.

[@KatieKat3]

Great show Chris!!

[@simplysusan.5625]

The acronyms are like a foriegn language...another way to confuse and keep secrets...only use the native tongue.

[@chuckbeattyo]

Wow. I'm so thankful Dylan Gill gets interviewed. Great job Dylan, incredible interview Chris. Third gen Scientologist, a perfect fit for CST which is Hubbard's Holy Grail "archives" upkeeping facility, just very important, I hope other ex CST and Archives, and even Chris I'd love someday Gerry Armstrong to please get archives details interviewed if he's willing. Gerry might be even rightly to blame for pushing Hubbard into blathering on about doing more to build the CST/Archives Holy Grail upkeeping sites. The unintended consequences of persons who lived and offered suggestions to Hubbard, spurred Hubbard to greater delusional organizational orders. I even think Gerry could be somewhat to blame for the ballooning of Hubbard's "archives" project later events, which occurred after Gerry departed the Scientology/Hubbard nuthouse totem pole keystonecops/CharlieChaplinModernTimes sci fi saluting bureaucracies.

[@chuckbeattyo]

The Sea Org "Action Bureau" administrative unit job is sending out the administrative fixup teams (2 to 5 usually Sea Org specially picked fixup team members) get sent out from one of the Action Bureau units in one of the upper echelons to go down the totem pole and fix up some lower Hubbard nutty bureaucracy snafu area that inevitably comes to grief constantly due to all the problems with Scientology and Hubbard's delusional expectations from the massive multi echelon Scientology bureaucracy. Hubbard's bureaucracy rules cause the problems that the Hubbard "Action Bureau" fix up teams have to go fix. Hubbard even had a condemnatory word, "taking in one's own laundry" (fixing constantly one's own self created messes), that's a major theme in a quack subject. A quack subject whose top to bottom rules and regulations are all dominated by the top nut "founder" (like Hubbard) will inevitably just be a constant KeystoneCops/CharlieChaplainsModernTimes bureaucracy auto pilot self created problems. Hubbard created all kinds of bureaucratic fix up administrative fixer teams, who temporarily "fix" things, until the next inevitable mess comes, due always to Hubbard's "tech" (the quackery) not working. That's why Hubbard in the "Going Clear...." book Epilogue, readers reading to the final pages will learn Hubbard admitted failure. That admission of his failure didn't get to the rest of the movement, sadly, so the Hubbard administrative staffs are still trying to make the unworkable delusional quackery (the "tech") and the Hubbard administrative bloated bureaucracy trying to fix all its own constant mistakes getting the quackery to work, and them constantly tripping over their inevitable administrative violations trying to get the quackery to work. The world around Scientology is suffering the effects of this massively prolific Hubbard administrative setup that houses and tries to make this quackery work, which inevitably that doesn't happen. No "OT" special souls ever emerge from the Hubbard whole multi-echelon mess. And thus, Chris, all you do is valuable for chronicling the history, via the ex bureaucratics, like Dylan. I love all of Dylan's history, since I lived 1975-2003 and knew at least by being there, all the major persons in the Sea Org 1975-2003 (all the way to ASI, I worked at ASI 1992-1995, then finished off my career in the Int and PAC RPF's). Dylan's CST history is important, and naming names of those at CST I hope prompts some more ex CST staffers to contact you to be interviewed someday.

[@chuckbeattyo]

Chris, Rewording Hubbard's words, one missing rewording is the word "tech." It takes so long to accept that Hubbard's tech is quackery. When you do, then it's quite easy to see all of the positions in the Hubbard massive multi echelon bureaucracy movement easily. "Tech" means quackery. Thus, jobs like Cramming Officer, would be Quackery Repair Officer Auditor is Quackery Pseudo-Therapist Orgs are quackery delivery centers. The Bridge is the Quackery attainment chart (one side of the Bridge is quackery abilities attainment, one side of the Bridge is Quackery Therapist expertise level) Quackery. Equals Scientology. IN the end of the day, this is true, because there are no "OT" super soul improved Scientologists. None can soul-fly (Hubbard's word is exteriorization, for the out-of-the-body hallucination that some Scientologists do have while doing the Scientology quackery therapy/exorcism). And the high levels of Scientology, the OT levels 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7, are the exorcism steps of the whole Hubbard quackery lineup. A whole lot of exorcism quackery, which even Hubbard was doing on himself, and failing to rid himself of a troublesome "body-thetan" (and body thetans are best thought of as just surplus souls that infest a person and at worst transmit bad thoughts onto a person, and a person, the thinking person who each of us are, that is the actual person, the "main" thinking thetan/soul who we each are, and on the OT levels 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 we shed any of the troublesome hitchhiking surplus souls ("body-thetans" both in clusters and individually) off our bodies. It is so taxing to make this simple enough to get to the core of Scientology's beliefs, and the problems they self cause. All Hubbard's fault, he wrote this mess. Tech is quackery. The Qual Aide position, or the Training and Services Aide, in CLO WUS, would translate to: Hubbard Continental Quackery Pseudo-Therapy Repair Administrative Overseer for a continental area. Hubbard Continental Quackery Pseudo-Therapy Delivery Administrative Overseer for a continental area.

[@andyh027]

It sure is a bunch of bullshit, you're right. Chuck, when you left the "church" how long did you continue to believe in Hubbard? Or did you realize immediately?

[@nerminodkan401]

Awesome Interview re CST! Cult of L Ron Hubbard by design🤗Red Flag, Hubbard the Narcissist knew exactly what he was doing. ..when landed here in Clearwater, Florida circa 1975!

[@tOn3z0n3]

This was a very interesting conversation. I will be listening out this again. You and Dylan debated the points of view on DM very well. There are some interesting things to think about regarding DM's motivations. This is a excellent additive talk to the one Dylan did with Aaron. Well done Chris and Dylan. Do you think the disagreements and in fighting in the ex Scientologist community is just people being people? Or is it OSA actively stoking the fire of discontent in the ex community? I think it is both, but I think OSA is much more active than most people realize. I hope the ex community can avoid the bait that OSA throws into the conversations.

[@chuckbeattyo]

58:14 "...Crestline...." Yea, that word, "Crestline" wasn't even to be spoken at ASI. I didn't learn of the location of CST/Crestline until I saw it in the news which OSA Int did newsclippings, and passed on the news clippings to ASI staff, we were supposed to stay up on all mentions of Scientology in the news, and in my in-tray communication basket when I was ASI staff 1992-1995, I read about "Crestline" from the news clippings. Later when I met the CST staff who came to visit with Norman Starkey and David Lantz, who were legally the two "Trustee to LRH" staff who were also considered Author Services Inc staff, but the Starkeys (Norman and his wife) and David Lantz technically were "LRH Trust Office, Department 20 of the Author Services Inc "organization chart:) staff. Crestline was a taboo word, since it could give away CST's location, and CST/Archives, is equal to Hubbard Holy Grail material maintenance, was and still is. If protesters wish to get under Scientology's skin, just tell Scientologists about the location of their Crestline mother facility and mention that's where David Miscavige's wife Shelly is today working with Private Eye guards right there making sure she doesn't fly the coop, and that kind of hits a couple of the sensitive buttons of David Miscavige all in one sentence.

[@user-xi1cv4nr4d]

Great work, men!!! Thank you !

[@shiregirl2001]

I appreciate his nuanced opinion about DM's motivations. I've suspected similar for a bit, though I'm a never-in, so what do I know? Verrrry interesting conversation. Thank you for trying to make the world a better place, fellows. 😂

[@Coyoteseeks]

That's interesting, the idea that the "abilities gained" and such are the carrot to entice people into scientology, wherein in order to do courses and get those "abilities" one must subject oneself to a system of behaviour(control) outlined in the policy letters, which is the real way in which scientology controls an individual. That would make policy senior to tech actually( but LRH said..... lol), the tech just being the "elixir" that makes an individual give up their individuality in favor of hubbards think, ie policy. I agree, I think a big part of scientology is about controlling the individual, more so than actually becoming OT( or even clear).

[@chuckbeattyo]

1:14:39 Perks of CST staff life. Same for RTC, same for ASI and same, mostly, for CMO Int. Pay, check, yes. Bonuses, sometimes, check, yes. ASI we got 250 to 280 bucks a week, so it was overwhelming when I joined ASI, going from 35 bucks a week, to 250 a week was huge. For Sea Orgers, even though technically, legally, but not "quals" wise, ASI staffers are still "Sea Org" quals wise, but paid like lowest paid minimum wage but Sea Org members to get minimum wage pay would be a huge improvement for them. Author Services Inc staff, nothing compares, better than RTC staff for perks, we had uniforms made by Claudio Luigli tailor.

[@George50809]

Miscavige made a bad cult a worse cult. Not okay, DM.

[@lperez123]

want to hear more about Dylan's point of view of why it doesn't work and more about his views of David Miscavige. great video i really enjoyed this one

[@chuckbeattyo]

Your interviewing Chris, brings to mind some serious issues no one even brings up. The ebbing and waning of interest to even discuss the major Hubbard thinking final "strategic level" wishes for his movement, requires though, bringing up a wider chunk of Hubbard's actual final orders and his long term policies, when he by implication in the end of his life he wished for those taking over to be mindful to follow, and he expected his messengers to be steadfast in following. No one brings up Hubbard's deeper influence on that scene that Miscavige walked into, still. Hubbard's movement "top management" long range expectancies from the 1970s and up to his death, his final strategic wishes for the movement, that Hubbard mindset needs telling. We don't have the CST archives of his final Int Base/ASI orders/RTC orders/CST orders to hand to review, but these final Hubbard bigger wishes for the future, need a full layout, no one's done it.

[@mangolassi_.]

35:35 Glengarry Glen Ross didn't win any Academy Awards. Al Pacino was a nominee but didn't win. Alec Baldwin however won a 20/20 Award for that role in 2013.

[@rjkdev]

1:12:24 - lots of little organizations/companies. So could the govt bring RICO charges against them?

[@chuckbeattyo]

1:06:35 Dylan discusses the external CST bases, where there are teams of staff, usually a couple, the Petrolia team are the Oulettes, Jacqueline and Francois and the Creston Ranch team for years was Paul Grady's subordinate and wife. A short man, Mat forget his last name, Dylan you remember him, Asian, real short, did woodworking and all sorts of construction. And the older pilot licensed CST staff man, he too, remember him.

[@Wabe28]

The discussion tech vs. policy and true believer is quite interesting; it reminds me of current discussions within Islam. In a sense that some Muslim scholars make the argument that you neither need Hadith&Sunnah to understand the Quran. The other side (the majority) will say that you can only understand the Quran through Hadiths and the Sunnah and therefor through them, become a true believer.

[@SheNiteOwl]

What an interesting comparison and one I did not think about until I read your comment. I lived in Saudi Arabia for 9 years and so am very familiar with this argument among Muslims.

[@Wabe28]

Ah , good old Saudi Arabia , them childhood memories. Especially being called Sir by grown men and calling them walad. ;-)

[@andyh027]

1:24:47 Good lord, for a second I thought they were keeping Japanese dragons in those vaults. Nothing surprises me with Scientology anymore. :-)

[@chuckbeattyo]

56:00 Very important backstory details of the vetting (destroying the paperwork) that showed LRH was still ordering into the movement after the time Scientology legally in court claimed that Hubbard had stopped ordering into the movement. Dylan has plenty of firsthand experience on that vetting, all to hide the evidence in case the IRS wanted to see it.

[@alexisdigital]

As a narcissist, to manipulate people and get their full attention and admiration all the time (and their money), LRH needed the carrot (the tech) AND the whip, so they would also sub-consciously learn not to ever question him or think critically. Maybe policies (the whip) were a step further into making Scientology a destructive cult?

[@chuckbeattyo]

48:25 The vetting missions had loads of great leftover stuff. The PAC Security Guard Frank Norton/Gordon (sp?) saved Gerry Armstrong's wedding pictures showing LRH, and Frank had them on the wall in the hall of the wing of the complex outside his and his wife's berthing, the halls of main big blue had people's books sharing niches, and we even had a floor library, and Frank had Gerry Armstrong's famous LRH appearing at Gerry and Terri's wedding photos, with the Broekers, I mean Frank picked up that from the vetting piles near the big jaws shredder which is still there in the Vechicle Repair Unit dockway between Lebanon Hall and the Cont Training Org building/laundry and the ASHO courtyard. The history of the complex and the repurposing of every durned office and room, is just so so so unbelievably intricately detailed. Anyways, I had a room in Leb Hall as staff, and the complex, all through the 80s, even up into the 90s, Author Services staff had rooms in the big blue, and i knew the history of the complex thus, personally, off and on from 1983 til 2003 are my years in those buildings.

[@popupkitty]

I was MOPM6 and I/C LA org renos, ASHO reno's ,FOLO WUS move, AO move IC. 1976-1983. Very strange times indeed.

[@SandyQueue]

Great conversation!

[@chuckbeattyo]

53:10 Dylan did a lot of missionaire duties, in the 1980s era, when Paul Grady was Action Chief CMO Int, and one of Paul's jobs was "external" ensuring the Missionaire Units in the lower down the totem pole CMO units and PAC and Clearwater were the two key lower CMO Action Bureaux to send out local missions to do things. Flag in particular, since Flag Service Org made the big bucks for the movement, which is why the CMO Clearwater history is likely more significant to the health monetarily overall of the Scientology movement. Someday, Chris, bone up on Paul Grady, and see if you can interview Paul someday. To get the CMO Int perspective. Paul ran for instance, the mission that started International Association of Scientologists (IAS) original mission. I was myself in the briefing room when the IAS original mission was briefing, I knew the missionaire second on that first IAS setup mission with Janet Light and Michael Parodi (dad of Misha Parodi who you might remember Chris, it was her dad was on the first IAS setup mission with Janet Light). The heyday years of Paul Grady overseeing the CMO Action Bureaux has never been duplicated. Paul "knew it all" his brain must be so full of details of things, it is hard to fathom. WDC Flag Service Org had much to do with why CMO Clearwater did so many missions also, but Flag makes Scientology's big money, so it naturally drew CMO Int attention (Action CMO Int and WDC level attention). Chris, you being at PAC, an even lower money making but large people wise locale of the movement, I sometimes wish with your incredible skills at telling the details of the Scientology bureaucracies, that you had risen up to Int level, so that when you quit, you'd be in the know of the endless other details of history that went on "up" there. "up" towards the top, the top entourage with LRH, that's why to me, again, it's good to remember Hubbard was the "up" most level and thus those around Hubbard, all through the history of the movement, and the Hubbard long final stretch of day to day orders and the people who carried out the day to day final stretch of Hubbard orders, are so key to full complete history telling.

[@chuckbeattyo]

1:15:30 Chris, boy, there are more who've read the CST advices, and that's due to the advices being strung out in time, pulled into a grouping of advices, and then labelled the CST advices. You need to be briefed on the categorizing and history of the upkeep of ALL of the categories of LRH traffic, and that history. I've read all the CST advices, or most of the significant ones, and told reporters even about this, years ago. The Washington Post famous reporter Richard Leiby interviewed me about CST, and I asked Bruce Hines also to pipe in. Bruce worked in Senior C/S Int Office during the years that the LRH traffic was upstairs from Bruce, sitting in RTL's (Ron's Traffic Liaison is Michelle Yager's job, she upkeep the whole enchilada LRH advices in her cabinets, I've written about this). And staff in CMO Int, Exec Strata only needed go ask Michelle Yager what they needed, she loaned out the advices. I read though her cabinets, I then went all over the base to the closets and dug out the ex execs' bankers boxes of their jobs' traffic, and there were just every leftoever advices. There used to be Watchdog Committee Member for Files, Bill Funnel, he was the brainiac file keeper of all of the management advices, this was all before the INCOMM computerization of the "advices" which in turn were put on the INCOMM Int Base servers, and categorized. In the later years I worked in INCOMM, both in the INCOMM Int BAse computer room, and the LA INCOMM computer room, and later at the ASI computer room, all three computer jobs, I upkept the advices files. CST traffic is mixed in with the other traffic, and that's where I read them. PS: Chris, please let some of my comments sink in. Paul Grady's office was right across from Michelle Yager's Ron's Traffic Liaison Office filing cabinets, and believe me, Paul's read all the CST advices, and he's married to Janis. There is so much to learn friend, it's out there, in people's heads.

[@ameliarbaldwin1402]

Okay, so I have heard that Buddhism is bad. Is anyone able to debunk this one for me? I'm not ready to dive I to Christianity or Judaism yet but as I have a history learning about Buddhism, I would like to have some kind of misconceptions wiped

[@chuckbeattyo]

1:19:30 Great explanation why some of the external CST bases are not inhabited, they don't need to be. For sure though, the final final nuts and bolts, for usage, really, it'd take some 24 hour surveillance of them for months, or years, to see who comes and goes to see what's their purpose. Shelly might have the best knowledge why the external sites are just duplicate holders of the copies or what. The "originals" of LRH's it'd be important to know if CST Crestline/LakeArrowhead/TwinPeaks mother CST site, if the originals are there, or at one or another of the uninhabited sites. When I was in Senior C/S Int Office under Mickey Lipton, under Dan Koon, the LRH Tech Research and Compilations Branch, that unit doing Hubbard compiling of issues used copies of originals, never originals. In 1988 next door to the LRH Compilations and Research Branch offices was Gail Poval's office, and Gail, from Australia, her husband Alan who today Alan's in Estates PAC, but Gail did the actual typing of ALL of LRH's traffic into the INCOMM SIR data bases, so that the INCOMM SIR data bases have the LRH traffic on them. INCOMM upkeep the LRH despatch traffic from 1984 onwards, and I when I worked on the project I was on, read everything, part of my orders. Later years I re-read interesting things, and later still I read LRH traffic not even in the INCOMM SIR data bases, specifially the Scientology "church" data bases don't have the ASI traffic nor the INCOMM traffic, nor the RTC traffic. RTC staff had access to the RTC traffic. ASI staff had access to the ASI traffic. At one time, about 2/3rds of the ASI traffic was in Ron's Traffic Liaison's Office (Michelle Yager, I know, I saw it there, and later when I worked in ASI years later, I saw and read it at ASI also, since Hubbard wrote things at times that applied to both Gold and to ASI at the same time, same despatch.) CST keeps the LRH originals somewhere, meaning the LRH cassette tapes used to record his verbal orders turned into the despatches that the Int Base upper villas old "LRH Comm Center" unit of personnel, Holly Funnell, Suzy Bennick, and Ted Karbowki, the three people who transcribed the LRH cassette tapes into written "LRH advices" that they were relayed by CMO Int base "watch" messengers to whomever that traffic was directed to be compiled with. That whole detailed from LRH's mouth to those to whom the orders applied, still, the whole history from the time I was in the Sea Org at Flag Clearwater, any LRH order in despatch form was freely shared locally, to fellow office relevant workers, so as to be "in the loop" with LRH's current batch of orders. That's got a whole history to it. PAC level staff who haven't been on the Apollo management lines, or on the Staff Aides' lines/lives, or on the Clearwater years when Flag Bureaux management happened in Clearwater up til the point Flag Bureaux moved to LA, LRH was till alive, and what happened is some Flag Bureaux top Sea Org staff, Tom Martiniano was one, Cathy Rinder was another, would routinely go "up" to Int Base CMO Int for briefing on the latest LRH traffic relevant so they at the Flag Bureaux level (this is 1980-onwards era of Flag Bureaux which was no longer "top management" but when Flag Bureaux declined in totem pole status to "upper middle management" and when Int Base CMO Int/WDC people were now "top" management, especially when RTC arose under Vicki Aznaran.). There is so much missing history not explained so even as smart and interested brilliant ex members like Chris, didn't know the weight and mindset of those that came even before the 1980s new brooms around Miscavige. The older Apollo vets have/had an innate tracking with things, since they were there on the Apollo watching earlier similar patterns and having just as much or more LRH facetime and understanding of things and knowing which way the Hubbard winds were blowing.

[@chuckbeattyo]

1:08:05 important the proper naming used by CST staffers for the Crestline mother CST site. Lake Arrowhead I'd heard CST staff call it Arrowhead when at the Int Base. Crestline I'd read when I was at Author Services. Twin Peaks I'd read at Author Services also. Then totally separate, after Hubbard died, then Creston Ranch became part of the CST unit's responsibility, in that CO CST had to help upkeep Creston Ranch at some point in history up to today. The team at Creston Ranch is probably the same people, a couple, forget his name, he's Swiss and his wife's American and she's daughter to the Chief Registrar lady from LA Org still today. I wish those ex CST external site people someday would get out of their Holy Grail guard/caretaker jobs and tell their unique stories.

[@chuckbeattyo]

49:50 "up" was code word for going "up to an Int level org". Since the "Int Base run" (the Int van that transported one to Int Base), the word "up" was commonly used when a person was going TO Int Base. From there, CST staff would be picked up to then go further to CST, correct Dylan? "Up" was to Int Base. From ASI, we'd say "up" and it meant to Int Base. From CMO PAC, when I thorugh the 1983-1990 era, "up" or "going up" meant to Int Base. For Gold matter, for CMO Int matters, for any of the Int Base units' matters. There's an INCOMM Int, as opposed to INCOMM LA, and if someone had clearances to be at Int Base, then when "up" was used in day to day talk of staff who were "uplines" or "up" it meant Int Base and then there are rules for NOT discussing the details that even Gold and CMO Int are at the same property, and so forth. Just a couple more layers of careful self silencing and you could be assigned lower conditions for saying or implying that Gold and Int were the same place even, during those years, and probably still today.

[@chuckbeattyo]

@@JohnnyV_Val If Shelly is "busted" going to CST is down. No one gets busted "up" to CST. Shelly was busted down to CST. Normal people, like Dylan, moved up to CST when they moved there. I don't know of anyone else at CST, ever, who was busted down to it, like Shelly has been. So up to all normal persons, would be going up to CST. Now, one can say that a few of the CST staffers, Arthur Bolstad (brother to Bruce, who was busted down from CST to Gold, Bruce was), but Arthur Bolstad was CMO Int Programs Branch at the Int Base, before Arthur went up to CST. CMO Int Programs Branch, a very important area where Arthur Bolstad was directly executing WDC's orders, Arthur's job in CMO Int Programs Branch might just have been more important, in some respects, to CST jobs but anyways, when Arthur Bolstad transferred from Int Base to CST, I think that's kind of a neutral move, but it's "up" in the sense that CST is LRH's final longest range personal "housekeeping" and "archives" upkeeping job, so in a way it's equally important. Johnny, almost all of the CST staff who are there, I'd say 99% it is a upwards move in terms of their overall Sea Org career. Shelly, it's a downward move. But that's because she was higher, being with Dave at the top, moving down to CST.

[@andyh027]

I love your SSPodcast theme music. So creepy but titillating.

[@horstdeimel]

I only understand abbriviations + abbriviations + abbriviations = CMO, RPF, RTC, ANT, ORGS, WDC, SFO, SFL, LRH, SO1, IXU, OPS, CO, CST, PREPS, PFT, HCO, MAA, OW's, KR, and so forth ..... that needs a abbriviation explanation dictionary itself. **I hope I understood all these abbriviatons letters correctly.** List might not be complete. LA=Los Angeles.

[@chuckbeattyo]

52:35 ON the Int Clearances, and the "higher clearances" to be in RTC or to be in ASI (I had to have Int level clearances 4-5 times, one to visit Int, one to be within CMO Int, one to be in INCOMM, one to be in ASI, 4 full sec checking clearances, and even I had two or three freshen up clearances/sec checking on top of those, and on top of those, I did 3 years of Truth Rundown on the RPF, and all total 5-10 thousand hours of the sec checking brainwashing crappy quackery pseudo-therapy, it's all waste of time). To me, in hindsight, you just have to ask future CST staff, do they wish to be like that Knight in the Raiders of the Lost Arc Temple of Doom movie, "Do you wish to become part of the lifelong team who are doing the highest secretive maintenance of the L. Ron Hubbard "Holy Grail" material? Are you willing to give your full lifetime to doing this, and do you have anything that might pull you off the job? " It's a lifelong commitment and Scientology instead really wastes so much time mind screwing their staff. I bet if Scientology just did an really simple multiple choice test, and verify the person really is qualified to give up their life to a life of working at CST, they'd save a lot of HR time getting people suitable to really give up their lives for that duty. It looks like Dylan's dad Rusty due to his dad's mindset, would have had no problem with Dylan giving up Dylan's life for that type of lifelong duty to maintaining and guarding Hubbard's Holy Grail stuff.

[@chuckbeattyo]

53:00 Mike Gildcrest was a nice guy, wonder if he's still in. He used to co-run a clothing store before foolishly being talked into joining Sea Org, then did the Sec Checker school training in the late 1980s to become a Gold MAA Sec Checker who did all kinds of other Int Base sec checking in the late 1980s, then I think he was busted from sec checker post and is in some production post at the Int Base. The career paths of Sea Org members, is a study all its own.

[@ToddStafford]

Can you explain more about the reference to Rainbow Vacuums? Or did I mishear something?

[@heyhonpuds]

I was hoping to find an answer to that in the comments too. You heard correct. So, rainbow vacuums?

[@chuckbeattyo]

1:18:00 Not so fast. Both guys, realize that some of us, I raise my hand, knew even deeper what all CST Archives meant, as I witnessed the manning up of it, and the things that hundreds of Int Base staffers who knew the Int staff who went to man up CST were gonna do. The LRH CST traffic I remember finding the CST advice for instance of the KOOL logo in several people's files at the Int Base in 1983, when I did my routing forms project reading assignment to read all things ever written by Hubbard, was my reading assignment, to do in any way, with Hubbard's administrative writings, CST advices included, this was prior to CST man up round two, and Dylan was round two of the CST build up. Round one of the CST was Dan and Tony Przybylski, and Dylan it seems came along for round two bigger man up after Tony and Dan were busted out of CST. Russ Bellan and Tom Vorm were round two top execs, and Jim Isaacson was round one, Jim and Claire were round one. I'd agree modern Int Base staffers after 1990, sure most won't have a clue that the handwritten KOOL logo CST advice with the diamonds in the center of the O's are LRH's CST traffic, they've never seen it. But if someone is attentive at the Int Base, and a longer timer Int Base staffer, especially in the staff training, you get in the know of things that all the staff on the base learned about LRH's input into everything, the history gets shared. Life at PAC is not at all like the life at Int Base when people let loose their secrets of their posts and what their spouses learn. Also, it's in people's "case folders" and ethics folders, in their transgressions, their mistakes in particular to do with failing to execute any one of LRH's important orders. There are myriad ways that the longest oldest Sea Org Int Base staffers pick up the details of CST's history. I trained Dan, I knew Tony, and Tony she was an older hand experienced funny tough Sea Org Apollo vet, kind of touchy to be around at times, but she was quite chatty if you got her going. I didn't learn of CST from her, but she told Apollo stories even back before she married Dan I enjoyed hearing. People who "go back" with others in Sea Org life, will share. I recall once, my then wife was Commodore's Staff Aide for Division 3 Treasury, and I'm sitting thus at the "Staff Captain's" mess table for lunch, and David Mayo, just arrived from Int Base, come back to Flag Land Base, comes to the Staff Captain's table to chat with Phyll Stevens who was then Staff Captain, the equivalent to what ED Int is today, and Mayo freely tells some of his LRH interactions at Int Base to Phyll, in earshot of us sitting at the table, all of those at the table are all privy to Hubbard's management orders. Hubbard was deep into the Cine films stuff, so Mayo tells of the story of his acting on whichever movie it was that he plays the Humphrey Bogart type of character for that Hubbard training film. People do share history, those that were around Hubbard didn't hold back telling Hubbard interactions to one another. There's a whole other level of honesty to those that "served LRH" faceupclose. There is a year by year, all sorts of tiny times, in the 1982 time slot, where over a hundred Int Base personnel could have easily read the CST traffic. When I was a visiting CMO Int project under Paul Grady, even for my project, is when I read the most of them. The ASI related orders to CST I read those also, when I got to ASI and I proofread all of the ASI Hubbard traffic.

[@chuckbeattyo]

49:00 Chris did you know Gary Miller? Reason is, he'd be someone who hasn't gone public, but who worked in Book comps from the time it moved from Clearwater over to LA/complex and when you did your proofreading for them. Also, Chris, did you meet Ken Delderfield? He was the original editor boss over Book Comps, and Ken was one and still to this day, Ken's career path in the movement would be critical to lay out long range, for future generation researchers of Hubbard's corpus. Ken personally did more in the compiling managing of Hubbard's Scientology and fiction works than anyone in the movement's history. The Book Comps team, and the LRH Comps Branch people (who later transferred up to the Int Base, and also it is an important detail to know that Book comps people were not as high as the even higher "LRH Tech Research Compilations Branch" people who were even higher up as a unit). The echelons of people on the LRH corpus production lines, the Books comps and CST had to share info, as the content would go into the blue volumes, the LRH Tapes to Books project, which I used to read those entire volumes also, for history, as they give just the most detailed day to day coverage of Hubbard's "tech" (quackery) history development. Anyways, I hope Gary Miller, comes out someday and you interview him. Ernie Ryan, if he's alive, he for sure had routed out though by the time you went to Book comps I believe Chris, but Ernie Ryan's picture is in the original Tech Dictionary, Ernie's play acting I think the role of "Student" in the Tech Dictionary photo. First ediction. Ken Delderfield, truly, all of Ken's generation Sea Org members I truly truly wish they'd be interviewed. Dag Gwillam (David A Gwillam was Apollo vet, like Ernie, but Gary wasn't Apollo vet, but Deld-Ken Delderfield goes back to Saint Hill and Deld truly just goes all the way until being in Author Services Int and Deld slipped down to Exec Strata and all over, Ken was kind of his own category of person in the movement's history of publishing Hubbard's non fiction and the policy volumes and tech volumes also). So much other huge significant people who lived upclose to the minute LRH orders from the Apollo era up through the end of Hubbard's life, there is still a LOT of details and more significant unappreciated ex big cheeses who all the new brooms never had a clue to the significance and face time those bigger earlier and "fallen by the wayside" old Apollo vets bigger ex cheeses played out Hubbard's script and orders and really did the big carrying to put this Hubbard mess on the map of earth.

[@chuckbeattyo]

1:05:40 Was Wade Starr there when you got there Dylan? Wade would be someone who might talk about CST history someday I'd hope. Another question for Dylan, was Dan Przybylski the CO Archives and Tony his wife, there when you got there? Was Barbara Tompkins there then? I know old Apollo vets like to hear about the Isaacson's wish you could publicly tell a few Jim Isaacson stories, and his wife, who many Apollo vets would remember Jim's wife. Kate Schmidt, who is the guard gate receptionist in Angry Gay Pope's video, was Kate there when you got there Dylan. The staff history details are good to get out into the public, possibly spurring those that had worked at this elite top level Scientology Holy Grail upkeeping facility to tell history. Many, literally hundreds, of ex Int Base staffers of the 1980s era will know most of the CST staffers, since most of the CST staff came from Int Base staff positions. Arthur Bolstad came out of CMO Int Programs Ops Bureau and Arthur's in Angry Gay Pope's videos of CST.

[@chuckbeattyo]

42:30 the Hubbard "ESTO Tapes" have the gentler Hubbard "fix up the bashed up staff/train the staff/give the quack pseudo-therapy to help staff" angle to Hubbard. The Org Officer and the ESTO are more establishment and patch up things. And the ball busting Alec Baldwin corporate visiting office shakeup guy, that for Hubbard is the "product officer" job in the administrative staffing chart. Staff jobs are product officer mostly for their tiny zones, and then the leader bosses are first and foremost product officer slanted, and then in larger orgs there are to be and some jobs inherently are the Org Officer/ESTO (hatting, establishing, fixing up, enhancing) jobs by title and necessarily by their laid out Hubbard hatting/training/enhancing/correcting nature. (I was staff training department and helped hundreds of Sea Org staffs learn their individual jobs, and did thousands upon thousands of checkout and grading of staffs' checksheet drills and essays about the key duties of every job in the whole up and down lineup of the Hubbard bureaucracies, and I later did 3 years in compiling the final "routing forms" of all staffs duties, during which time I even went to the Gerry Armstrong collected filing cabinets of LRH archival paperwork and personal letters, which I had to skim read, when the Gerry Armstrong Archives trove was in the CMO PAC building, the old Bridge building, the today CLO WUS building and specifically where the today WUS IAS offices are, are where the actual LRH originals, the LRH actual letters to his sci fi colleagues like to Heinlein, were and I had to take them out of their plastic wrappers wearing the white gloves and read the Hubbard original communications), all before those cabinets then were moved up to actual CST where Dylan was building the mother site CST). Gerry Armstrong, someday, needs more interviewing of his deeper pre Dylan era of CST. Before CST and before "Archives" was the Gerry Armstrong history Chris! Don't forget.

[@mjq243]

I think ( imo) DM started off believing - saw the truth - then thought - I'll have a piece of that!. In the real world he would never have had the level of power/so called respect/reverence/money that he gets in Scientology. Outside of this he's just a small angry guy!

[@chuckbeattyo]

Chris, did you ever read WDC ED 86? It was the "Int Strategy" from LRH, it was what CMO Int/WDC was pushing down from Scientology "top management" from 1982ish during those formative years Miscavige had usurped the "top messenger" position between the Broekers/LRH and Int Base top managers. When Miscavige became top relayer, and WDC ED 86 "Int Strategy" that is still to this day, the key "Int Strategy". It's Hubbard! Not Miscavige. Hubbard wrote the nasty comments "...if you see WDC SMI, spit on him for me...." ruthlessness. The late Denise (Larry) Brennan clearly tells of those Hubbard nasty orders, which Miscavige played out. But Hubbard issued the nastiness that sticks as policy for the air and attitude, that gives the older Flag Order model of tough Sea Org member "missionaire" beingness the final stamp of Hubbard approval. WDC ED 86 was LRH, and "...if you see WDC SMI, spit on him for me...." was Hubbard, Knowledge Reports policy point saying bad staff get black eyes from good staff in in-ethics orgs, and Hubbard "Corrupt Activities" policies says confront bad staff sternly. Hubbard wrote that nastiness into policy, that's Miscavige's on the job prescient policy that triggered his nasty genes that have ever since been unchecked. PS: My part, I was the "admin" handling part of the Int Strategy WDC 86-3. I was the "-3" part of the Int Strategy, I came to be on that project to do the "handling" harebrained Hubbard crazy past-lives "fix" which was the "computerized routing forms" which was an idea Hubbard plucked from his past lives, the millions of years ago space civilization computer society that ran on computers which was the Hubbard past lives hare-brained solution to "running" the orgs of Scientology. WDC 86-3 tied into the INCOMM "solution" to the movement. Hubbard always had his heavy production officer pushing for production strategy, and then he had his behind the scenes "handling" of the routing forms, and then the longer range solution still to come, someday, is the INCOMM harebrained administrative long range solution, supposedly. Harebrained Hubbard solution. WDC ED 86 though, is just product officering (FEBC lecture hard pushing for production, push the stopper people to ethics and just get production over dead bodies running style that last and is still going today).

[@chuckbeattyo]

58:25 Chris "....how many people in PAC had clearances to go uplines....." Such a convoluted topic. People who had spent more facetime with Hubbard than almost 99% of the people at the Int Base weren't even "cleared" to go to Int Base. The topic of Int clearances is just so massively discussion fruitful to show the idiocy that Hubbard wrought due to Hubbard's own rules of who could be at the highest reaches of the movement, and Int Clearances just shows truly how deeply flawed this Hubbard "top management" location, Int Base, had become. I lived Dec 1975 through 2003, and watched, as an informed, "Int cleared" level Sea Org member those decades, of what the movement had become. This secretive nature and barring and status inducing totem pole hierarchy of who is who, and those at the top and even ex's having no clue of, including me too, of the older generation people, going back to the 1940s and 1950s, all the former era Scientology related movement persons who lived upclose to Hubbard, the way Hubbard his movement at the end of his life, precluded out of the movement those that had better wider understanding of Hubbard than Hubbard even allowed people to have of him and his movement. Like Lawrence Wright's brilliant conclusions in "Going Clear..." and in Wright's interviews, the Sea Org and administrative bureaucracies and hierarchies of the Scientology movement have taken on the look of L. Ron Hubbard's mental ill heath mind. And guess who would understand that in a heartbeat, it would be the men (now mostly dead) who were colleagues of Hubbard back in Hubbard's sci fi and pulp writer days. They'd have known in a heartbeat what today's nutty Scientology bureaucracies, and in their minds, the CST Archives are nutty Hubbard's vanity publishing Holy Grail graveyard delusional natural ending to Hubbard's mentally inflated grandiosity that they as Hubbard's colleagues had seen in Hubbard back in the day. I so wish that someday, the Writers of the Future winners get taken to tour CST and see where the great L. Ron Hubbard's Holy Grail crap is being eternally preserved, just for cosmic laughs.

[@percypape]

Chuck Beatty, thank you for your excellent comments (everywhere I've seen them, not only this video). Insider viewpoints add details that I very much appreciate.

[@MG-zn9fn]

Great vid! I just find it sad how ron Hubbard prayed on people's yearning to be part of something important.

[@heyhonpuds]

Rainbow vacuums? Like colours or an obscure brand?

[@angiebarnes5313]

If DM were in fact a “TRUE BELIEVER” he would have completed his OT levels . Be all you can be right? How does he rational this anyway?

[@OhMyPearls]

Argot - mid 19th century (originally denoting the jargon or slang of criminals): from French, of unknown origin. 😜 good work, guys.

[@chuckbeattyo]

20:10 there is a much more detailed chain of Hubbard orders, ignorances of policy, and a huge amount of Hubbard's present time orders to top management the late 1970s through the 1980s far far greater in weight than Miscavige's influence, if you really did into the details. Hubbard's own present time orders, specifically the WDC 86 strategy, which you may have heard of, and the other orders to CMO and Exec Strata, and to RTC, we would need all those, in sequence, with the compiling orders from Hubbard for the policies of "Strategic Planning" of the 1980s, to really see the top ranks behind the scenes details. Chris you and and Aaron are damned high IQ smart well appreciated minds digesting the highest reaches, but man, there is more details of what Hubbard wrote that back up Miscavige's "changes" to things. Even the ASI Hubbard traffic has influence on Miscavige if you haven't seen the ASI traffic then you can't see it on Miscavige. He acts out Hubbard's final mindset, and he adds his own dark nature (Mark Fisher's interviews with Jeff Augustine are truly the best to date, plus Jesse Prince's new book and interview details, Jesse could say so much more than you gleaned from him, Jesse lived that imperfect world of top management, which even Jesse hadn't known all of the Apollo era vintage top management people, since each new set of "new brooms" who get risen up to hold the reigns, if they haven't really spent the study time to know in detail the details of the decade of "failed execs" in full breadth before them, each new set of "new brooms" just don't really get what life for Ken Urquhart was like, and where people like Ken, and where the other older timers both today in CST who Dylan even met a few of the older timer Apollo vets at CST like the Isaacsons, Jim and his wife were Apollo vets and have huge long prior career views of it all.). Chris your brain power is commendable, just so appreciated. There is just so much though, when conclusions are drawn, I hope that Janis Grady Gillham's third book and forth book, when they come out, will lead to other the longer term ex vets to fill in more. We do need the CST archives Hubbard full sequence of orders/advices and final years writings, including his Creston Ranch daily orders and mindset (even more than Sarge provided Lawrence Wright). The damnable Hubbard mess goes to so much more details, of course anyone doing the extent you've taken things Chris, is truly a huge unthanked job for the posterity history details. But, sadly, and importantly, there is more to flush out though. I don't see Miscavige as long range being more detrimental than Hubbard's mess. The Hubbard mess still "holds the form of the orgs" and you know what that means. Hubbard's policies at the multi-echelons will continue to "hold the form of the orgs" for longer than any leader, Miscavige being the nastiest riser to the top of the heap current "Brigham Young" like usurper, but the Hubbard corpus is long long range, the problem, that those researching Scientology long after we are dead, I hope your ex member guests provide just tons of info, for them that review this all, long long after we are all tot (dead in German).

[@AK.kje11]

A great discussion. Personally I think DM is in it for the money, the power and the recognition. Believing the Scientology doctrine? If I have to but my fingers are crossed behind my back.

[@zenoofcitium4518]

Interesting video as always; though Dylan's definition of a true believer was a bit odd (it was a strange thing to object to/quibble about on his part). Most people would define a true believer as you did Chris; simply someone embedded in a belief system who genuinely believes the doctrine. From the description Dylan was giving of Miscavige; huckster seems a way more appropriate description for Miscavige than true believer; other than really interesting stuff - keep up the good work!.

[@zenoofcitium4518]

I agree that Dylan does indeed appear to have been thinking that (or something akin to that); but I would say that is not what the vast majority of people mean when they use (or think when they hear) the phrase 'true believer'. It was a bit odd to object to/quibble about the use of the phrase as it used and defined in common parlance; to then insert a definition/use it in a context seldom (if ever) used by anyone. Otherwise very interesting & informative conversation; and I look forward to future interviews featuring Dylan.

[@rawhamburgerjoe]

I think maybe he's also saying that cognitive dissonance allows people (even DM) to BOTH believe and not believe in something at the same time with different aspects of their personality? It's like suspension of disbelief. I know Romeo and Juliet don't exist- and yet even so, when I watch the play, I cry every time....

[@rawhamburgerjoe]

I remember being catholic and thinking parts of my own religon were total bullshit and yet I still believed that Jesus died for my sins. But the wierd thing was, when I stopped and thought about it logically, the who Jesus thing was predicated on the bullshit part! But still, I wanted to believe...

[@zenoofcitium4518]

@@rawhamburgerjoe I too was raised Catholic; & the tenet of it you mentioned (Jesus dying for our sins) was instrumental to my abandoning that belief system. If God was indeed all powerful (as the bible purports God to be) he could have easily forgiven our sins without anyone dying. To your point about Miscavige; I agree in the sense that it is very plausible Miscavige sees (or believes) in the utility of some aspects of Scientology. I wouldn't ascribe a label like 'true believer' to someone like that though. I too can see the utility/positive aspects of my former religion (& many of the world's other religions too) but true believer is not a label I (or anyone else) would ascribe to me.

[@chuckbeattyo]

1:01:10 Someday, later up the road, those other ex Author Services Inc staff can simplify and correct the details and lay on what they took as most important of what Hubbard ordered for Archives. Has Dylan had a chance to sit down with any of the ex Author Services ex biggies and chew old fat? I glanced reading the Hubbard Archives orders during my full study of all things administrative reading I had to do for the routing forms project. I remember the dumb Hubbard KOOL cigarette logo Hubbard wrote in his own handwriting in one of the Archives traffic despatches I read. It immediately struck me that Hubbard chose that logo unconsciously from his ever present KOOL cigarette packages unconsciously and I wondered if KOOL would ever sue Hubbard over it, LOL> (I also wondered in the diamonds in the middle of the circles, the addition to the KOOL logo that I suspected Hubbard added for reasons to show that Archives is where might be Hubbard's stashed gems and gold pot, which per other Hubbard grandiose writings Hubbard had gone gold hunting in his life to dig up pastlives treasures, well it seemed to me logical, putting the diamonds in the CST logo was a way to tell himself in a future life, that CST is his place to come back to, and get his past lives treasure he's stashing there.)

[@rramirez4217]

31:53 A guy had ANTS lick his balls???? How is that even possible?? Or did he say Aunt? (I hope it wasn't the latter)

[@simplysusan.5625]

Perfect example of too much bureaucracy!! And a whole 'new speak' of acronyms. UGH

[@andyh027]

Alec Baldwin didn't win an Oscar for Glengarry. And Al Pacino's character wasn't present for Baldwin's scene.

[@ChrisSheltonMsc]

My bad. I honestly thought he had. Don't recall ever saying Pacino and Baldwin were on screen at the same time though.

[@karena3435]

Are Rainbow Vaccuums somehow associated with Scientology or is it just a product they use?

[@heyhonpuds]

I was also intrigued. My Google-Fu failed me.

[@KDSima]

Awesome episode. Dylan was entertaining and informative. I do want to let you know that you might want to "Google" the phrase "Call a spade a spade". I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned to you that it has a pretty negative history. Sorry if someone has already mentioned it to you (I'm sure you did not mean it in a derogatory way)..

[@vegan3650]

They wouldn’t take attempted suicide either.

[@tolowreading6807]

Parental or patronizing?

[@nerminodkan401]

$cientology: Watchdog Committee matches ex CIA WhistleBlowers stories!...😂and Julian Assange plus Edward Snowden 💜2020...

[@AnArchyRulzz]

This guy has very similar voice to Marc Headley

[@calmvibesnamaste9946]

this sc vocabulary is funny.