Sequels: After Sibelius' Seventh Symphony

[@s28101]

Very inspiring talk. Nice to have Rued Langgaard mentioned, no 4 (autum leaves) and no 6 is a very good place to start up. Thanks to all commentators, fine and wise reading.

[@Cesar_SM]

Very glad because you also mentioned Tippett's 4th and Alwyn's 5th, which contain fascinating music, especially the Tippett. A feast of sonorities and textures with an otherworldly atmosphere. I remember not liking this work at first, but with subsequent listens I realized the greatness of this work. It's just mesmerizing and it does leave an impression on the listener.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Indeed it does!

[@anttivirolainen8223]

It's such a wonderful thing, that you appreciate Englund's works, I'm sure that it meant a world to the composer. I don't know if you happen to know this, but Englund even quoted that famous review of yours in his memoirs.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Really? I had no idea. Thanks.

[@anttivirolainen8223]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Yes, indeed he did. Englund quoted your reviews of his 2nd and 4th symphonies. Although Englund was far from being completely neglected in Finland, he did feel that he didn't get as much recognition as he should have. And he was probably right. His memoir title, "In the Shadow of Sibelius", is in that sense quite telling. Evidently Englund felt that he needed to quote some of his best international reviews to make his case to the Finnish readers.

[@WMAlbers1]

@@DavesClassicalGuide i actually translated some of Englunds remarks in an earlier comment... Is i could find it back.

[@franklehman8677]

Wonderful talk! A little outside the Sibelius-influence stream perhaps, but Myaskovsky is surely worth mentioning! His 10th, 13th, and 21st are one-movement wonders, and fairly influential in the USSR I believe. Great composer in general, would love to hear you talk about him and other first rate 2nd tier Soviet symphonists.

[@Cesar_SM]

Thumbs up for mentioning Langgaard's spectacular 6th Symphony!! It's arguably his best and, let's say, more visionary symphony where he uses a more harmonic language, not as conservative as in most of his other symphonies. Hopefully you'll make a video talking about his music some day.

[@julianneller4658]

I enjoyed all the examples in this talk and as usual Mr Hurwitz has conjured magic in terms of enthusiasm and interest. I have been a big fan of the Harris 3rd since I first heard Koussevitzky's rendition of it about 40 years ago. However, there is one UK one movement symphony I was sorry to see didn't make the list and that is Rubbra's symphony No.11, available as part of Richard Hickox's Chandos series of the complete Rubbra symphonies. This is a marvelous little symphony, only 15 minutes long, but so wonderfully put together.

[@estel5335]

I loooove this series & I would really appreciate more 'Mahler Sequels'. Happy listening, folks!

[@walterq3]

Wow, with this video you gave as the most names of interesting composers so far, I guess. You already brought to my attention Nielsen, Magnard and now I'm currently exploring Roussell. Thanks to your channel I subscribed to a streaming service so I can start listening to the works you mentioned immediately. My playlist will explode after this! I wonder why no university is hiring you to give lectures on repertoire because of your knowledge. Anyway, I'm glad you let us participate in your experience :-)

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

My pleasure!

[@kennethkleszynski1744]

Thanks for another terrific video--some pieces to re-visit, some others to track down. Regarding American composers, I believe Schuman's 6th is a single-movement work; it's thorny but well worth getting to know. And thanks for mentioning Alwyn, Tippett (Martyn Brabbins also has recorded the 4th), and especially Brian. An overview of his symphonies would be great!

[@davidstein8171]

Schuman's 6th is awesome. Very much a sequel to Sibelius 7.

[@Cesar_SM]

Totally true. Just heard it under Ormandy. An uneasy work and very complex with those tricky rhythms. A masterpiece of the 20th century.

[@curseofmillhaven1057]

I would add Robert Simpson's 6 & 7th Symphonies - both one movement works from 1977. The 7th is a very powerful work and we'll worth getting to know. Also Rochberg's 5th Symphony is remarkable and a continuous single movement narrative.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I think the 6th is an especially fine work. Thanks for mentioning it.

[@SittaCarolinensis]

Robert Simpson is an underrated composer; his Symphonies are very good (although the String Quartets are even better)@@DavesClassicalGuide

[@hughpyper4231]

Sallinen's one movement 1st symphony has always seemed to me to be a good candidate for the nearest we'll get to both Sibelius's 8th and Nielsen's 7th, while at the same time being an astonishingly well-executed, coherent, original and moving work in its own right.

[@saltyfellow]

Hi Dave! Just heard Roy Haris no 3 and Englund no 5! What a thrill! Specially if you are a percussionist! It's wilder than a led zepellin concert!!! Thanks for sharing this little treasures! This small format is great of you have half an hour free and what a real deep symphonic experience!!

[@theosalvucci8683]

Thank you for your thoughtful comparison of Mahler and Sibelius as symphonists. They are both great, although for different reasons.

[@122112guru]

Great as usual DH.I'd also add Peter Mennin's powerful and mighty 7th(Variation Symphony in one mvt) to the American list,with the great Jean Martinon and the Chicago.Gerard Schwartz's Seattle recording too,not as great as the former though.

[@tonysanderson4031]

Interesting to learn of a work I had not come across before.

[@joelvalkila]

There was one Finnish composer who wrote one-movement symphonies just before Sibelius; Ernest Pingoud. All his 3 Symphonies are in one-movement. The first two symphonies were written in 1920 and 1921. (Sibelius completed his 7th in 1924.) However, Pingoud belongs into the Scriabin school and these works do not sound very "symphonic" in nature. There are currently projects to publish clean scores to these works. - In case anyone wonders, Pingoud wasn't just "a Russian composer in Finland", but his mother was Finnish and also his wife. He had quite many relatives in Finland.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes, his music is fun.

[@mackjay1777]

Enjoyable topic, right up my alley as a symphony enthusiast (symphoniast?) Thank you for bringing up Gerhard. One of my favorite composers. The 4th Symphony is a masterpiece of modernism. Agree, very solid, as his First Symphony is as well. What about other Scandinavians? Sallinen (a fine composer) has 3 one-movement symphonies

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

What about them? 42 minutes in quite long enough, thank you. I can always do another one.

[@vdtv]

@@DavesClassicalGuide you could do an entire crusade on Segerstam alone.

[@johnmarchington3146]

WOW! You've truly excelled yourself this time. What an amazing range of music. The Einar Englund sounded fascinating - I don't have anything by him - and I was delighted that you included both the Samuel Barber 1st (a critic writing for the local newspaper some years ago made some very uncomplimentary remarks about the work, which I totally disagreed with, after a live performance by the NZSO) and the Roy Harris 3rd (that early Bernstein recording is surely magnificent and I love it). I also have the Matthias Bamert/Roberto Gerhard set of symphonies. They are extraordinary works, and will probably never become popular. Also the Hickox/Alwyn set too. I must consider buying the Langgaard box with Thomas Dausgaard. (I heard him conduct magnificent performances of the Sibelius 6th and 7th symphonies with the NZSO three or four years ago). I do have one or two of the Langgaard symphonies conducted by Neeme Jarvi. There is so much to buy and you could spend a lot of money doing it!

[@robkeeleycomposer]

Thank you for the boost for Roberto Gerhard's thrilling 4th. A major figure, and this is probably the greatest. Described by a critic friend as 'jet-propelled Varèse'. :-) 'Hydriotaphia' is based on 'Urne-Buriall' by the wonderful if weird 17th century writer Sir Thomas Browne. It's basically a mediation on mortality.

[@richardwilliams473]

My favourite 1 Movement Symphony has to be Roy Harris Symphony No 3

[@SvenErik_Lindstrom3]

Thank you for this note! I just had my first ever try of Harris' 3rd Symphony. What a fantastic piece!

[@richardwilliams473]

@@SvenErik_Lindstrom3 I hope you enjoyed it. Being a timpanist myself I find the timpani part in this piece of music challenging

[@theforceiswithme8804]

Havergal Brian never had any falling off of his inspiration. The later symphonies are wonderful examples of his profundity and unique genius. His last symphony (#32) is, I think, one of his best - with one of the most powerful slow movements in 20th-century music - something you won't discern from Leaper's flippant dog-trot through it. I'm glad to hear you speak of Havergal Brian with the respect he deserves! Other one-movement symphonies that come to mind are Robert Simpson's 5th and Butting's 9th. I notice you didn't mention William Schuman's 6th LOL.

[@john1951w]

The 10th is a wonderful piece. My school orchestra recorded the piece in 1972.

[@theforceiswithme8804]

...and did it very well! You can be proud of the result!@@john1951w

[@horsedoctorman]

I thought you were going to announce the 5th symphony of Silvestrov at the end there! While it doesn't have a whole lot to do with Sibelius, it's a one movement work and can be seen as a sequel to Tippett's 4th, breathing and all, at least according to the sleevenotes of the BIS Saraste/Lahti SO recording. It also harks back to Scriabin via the Mysterium chord that opens the symphony.

[@mickeytheviewmoo]

My dog was asleep all the way through video, until Hanson. He started barking like crazy. He hated it.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

It's like when they predict a natural disaster. The animals always know.

[@mike-williams]

The Barber snippet reminded me of Respighi's orchestration of the Bach Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor (from 1930)

[@WMAlbers1]

Yet a number of names new to me, and yet many days of ear stretching after this epistle. I'll start with Tipett.

[@tonysanderson4031]

Thnks for this very interesting ttalk. I think Havegal Brian's best symphonies are number 5 to 10. I would particularly recommend No. 5 ('Wine of Summer') which features a tenor solo. A recording with Roderick Williams, Royal Scottish Symphony Orchestra under Martyn Brabbins (who is President of the Havergal Brian Society). Martyn has also conducted a full Tippett cycle with the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra on Hyperion, which includes the first recording of Tippett's early Symphony in B flat. Alwyn and Malcolm Arnold both come from Northampton, England as did Edmund Rubbra. His fourth symphony, available on Chandos is a good place to start, although It isn't in one movement. It would be good if Christopher Rouse's music got more air time. I think his work is very good. Another British composer who wrote single movement symphonies is John McCabe. His second and fourth are on CD, the latter still being in print on Hyperion. Naxos have just re-released his first. He was a visiting professor in Cincinnati for a time. A contemporary British composer who has written at least one one-movement is the Scottish composer Sir James Macmillan. His fourth symphone is strongly recommended. It is available on Onyx with the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra under David Runnicles and also on Hypersion with the BBC Philharmonic Orchestra under, yes, you've guessed it, Martyn Brabbins. He seems to have taken over Vernon Handley's role in promoting British orchestral music. Michael Tippett's might be making a comeback. Edward Gardner has taken over a music director of the London Philharmonic and opened their new concert season with a performance of Tippet's opera "A Midsummer Marriage" to great acclaim.

[@ftumschk]

Tippett's operas, at least, deserve to be more widely performed. I've always found them hugely enjoyable, especially his Big Three: "Midsummer Marriage", "The Knot Garden" and "King Priam".

[@powerliftingcentaur]

This video is a wonderful education. Thank you.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@murraylow4523]

Tippett's 4th is a rather fascinating thing, and I saw Colin Davis conduct it (with real breathing sounds) several years back. Shame he didn't get to record it! Its also a pity the breathing puts people off the work, as its more attractive than the 3rd, which is one of the works where Sir Michael tipped over the edge into his version of bombasticness. I know from a previous talk that you disliked Henze personally, and I think his symphonies are uneven. However the 4th Symphony from the mid 50s is short, in one movement, and although post-tonal, rather attractive. It's forest music, and the very beginning is, I'm pretty sure, a deliberate allusion to the opening of Mendelssohn's Midsummernight's Dream Overture...

[@joshuaweiner6378]

Excellent video! Thanks for all of these examples for further listening. How about Rautavaara’s Symphony #5 (1986)? He is a favorite composer and I think this is an imposing one-movement symphony.

[@davidking663]

Thanks, Dave. England is a major find for me.

[@hyseo1121]

We have so many fine symphonists out there!

[@russellb5573]

I wish Sibelius had revised 'The Wood Nymph' and made it into a one movement flowing symphony with no breaks and just minimal tonal development, in his later years. You can hear it is so ripe for doing that, a la 'Tapiola' I can hear the Sibelian influence in Philip Glass (the Symphony 5 refrain in Koyaanisqatsi) and more modern composers like Jóhann Jóhannsson (now very sadly passed) 'Forlandia' ('Finlandia' reference anyone?) for example and the likes of 'drone' (if you want call it that) artists such as 'Stars of the Lid' and the subsequent spin off 'A Winged Victory for the Sullen'. The influence of Sibelius on the musical landscape is just immense!

[@michaelgarcia6400]

Almost 10000 subscribers. Way To Go

[@carlconnor5173]

Yes, I heard a strong similarity to Sibelius 7th in that Barber clip. You’ve given me quite a bit of ‘homework’ to do, David.

[@steveclaflin594]

Perhaps the most Sibelian aspect of Barber's 1st symphony is in having a peculiar ending which nobody can quite figure out how to play

[@davidhollingsworth1847]

Other than Myaskovsky's Symphonies nos. X, XIII, & XXI that Frank Lehman duly mentioned, I will mention: Andrei Eshpai: Symphonies III-VIII Boris Tchaikovsky: Symphony "Sevastopol" Ovchinnikov: Symphony no. I Popov: Symphony no. VI Vasks: Symphony no. II Ivanovs: Symphony no. I Tubin: Symphony no. X Eller: Symphony no. II Artur Kapp: Symphony no. III Alfven: Symphony no. IV (which precedes Sibelius' Seventh) Atterberg: Ninth Symphony Weinberg: Symphonies XIV, XVI, XVIII, XIX, XXI Lyatoshynsky: Symphony no. IV

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

...and so many more!

[@davidhollingsworth1847]

@@DavesClassicalGuide And I am sure I left out many (or some). Oh well.... 👍

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@davidhollingsworth1847 I'll have to do another talk at some point. Thanks for the list!

[@davidhollingsworth1847]

@@DavesClassicalGuide You bet. It's my pleasure. And of course, thank you.

[@bendingcaesar65]

Englund sounds very interesting. Unfortunately, Ondine is terrible in allowing their releases to go out of print quickly.

[@sppolly81]

It is a longer span of music (50 mins or so) but Robert Simpson’s Ninth is a work that resonates in this context for me. This is mainly because of the way the pace and motion seem to evolve from one extreme to its polar opposite without you ever seeing the joins, much like Sibelius’ 7th does, at least for me. It is similarly granitic in mood too.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

That's very interesting.

[@petertaplin4365]

Thanks David - what a treasure trove! Could you please do an illustrated talk on the Madetoja Symphonies sometime? I've also enjoyed the Symphonies of Stanley Bates (esp. No.4) on Dutton, who nobody's heard of!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I have done Madetoja.

[@brossjackson]

I would definitely mention Aulis Sallinen's 1st as a one-movement Finnish symphony that has some kinship with Sibelius (it actually reminded me of Barber's 1st when I heard it, but you've already said that Barber's 1st is a sequel to Sibelius, so by transitivity...). Rautavaara's 5th is in one movement, but I don't know that it's particularly Sibelius-like.

[@doctorzingo]

Yes, Langgaard was an odd and bitter man. He submitted a piece for choir and orchestra to Danish Radio which just had the words "Carl Nielsen, our great composer", to be sung ‘with all possible force’ and ‘to be repeated for all eternity.’

[@VallaMusic]

hehe - that opening of the Englund #5...the first thing I thought of is West Side Story meets Shostakovich

[@paulb356]

This was thoroughly delightful. And now I have a whole bunch of pieces to explore! Thanks so much Dave. Your knowledge of the repertoire, its comprehensiveness, never ceases to astound me. Thanks also to the commenters for their further suggestions.

[@scagooch]

Hanson has been growing on me.

[@parsa.noroozian.counselling]

I have listened to the Sibelius 7 twice with two of the acclaimed recordings, Blomstedt and Sakari, yet I believe I havent understood or located the "voice" in it. I think your insight would help me though, knowing it is a great work and probably takes take to appreciate

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Sure. Let it grow on you. It took me some time too.

[@UlfilasNZ]

Great list! I'd only add one symphony by a composer I know you're not such a fan of, and that's William Schuman's 6th - there's a great recording by Schwarz and the Seattle SO on Naxos.

[@UlfilasNZ]

I think another great example is Douglas Lilburn's 3rd.

[@barryguerrero7652]

I like Alwyn quite a bit. I've seen several older, black and white British movies that had smart sounding soundtracks by Alwyn.

[@Elvenraad]

One British composer (influenced by Sibelius & Haydn) who can't be ignored is Peter Maxwell Davies. His Fifth for instance is in one movement and last about 26 minutes. Not an easy piece, but a well-worth listening experience.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I beg to disagree, sadly.

[@Elvenraad]

That's okay. Is it particulary this work you don't like or Maxwell Davies' complete oeuvre?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@Elvenraad I think his early, avant-garde works are often masterful, but his works in traditional forms--symphonies, concertos, quartets--are pretty dreadful. The fire went out of him.

[@im2801ok]

Tippett's fourth was also recorded by Brabbins and the Scottish BBC Orchestra. I wonder why Franz Schmidt's masterful fourth (of 1933) wasn't mentioned - it does sound like a classic "prequel" to the Sibelius seventh (although, of course, in a totally different spirit and style).

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

That's why it wasn't mentioned. Come on! There are many works that "could have" been mentioned, but the talk was long enough.

[@im2801ok]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Dear Dave, this is exactly the point: your talks are NEVER long enough! :)

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@im2801ok That's very kind, but I beg to differ! We are having fun, though, aren't we? There's just so much to talk about (and even more to listen to). Sigh.

[@frederikzaar2541]

Speaking of Langgaard, do you know his work 'Carl Nielsen, vor store komponist' ('Carl Nielsen, our great composer')? Langgaard was tired of Nielsen's omnipresence in Danish music culture, even after his death, so in 1948 he wrote the piece for organ and chorus. The text is merely the title phrase, it lasts 32 bars and is to be 'repeated in all eternity'. It might be the saltiest (and funniest) piece of all time. It has been recorded, though, disappointingly, without all the repeats... I love your videos

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Thank you. I think it's a very sad and bitter piece, actually, especially given Langaard's personal failures.

[@frederikzaar2541]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Hm, I never thought of it that way, but I guess you're right. It must have come from a place of great insecurity and resentment. Still, I find the jab quite effective as a satire. Which might be a bit cynical, given the circumstances.

[@SRV2013]

There goes my paycheck.

[@leeturner1202]

I don't know if anyone ever did an orchestral arrangement of Liszt's Sonata in B Minor. If so, would that have qualified as the first significant one movement symphony?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

No, it would have qualified as an orchestral version of the Liszt sonata! But I see your point.

[@mrktdd]

Leo Weiner did an orchestration and Constant Lambert made a piano and orchestra version for a ballet. No idea how they came off.

[@pabmusic1]

(real name Phillip Brookes) Not quite on point, and definitely nothing to do with Sibelius, but one work that could be regarded as a 1-movement symphony is Elgar's Falstaff (1913). Elgar wrote a very detailed programme note so it's easy to regard it as programmatic, but if Elgar had never specified a programme and had called it Symphony in C minor it might be difficult to argue (no - it would definitely be difficult) - whether we liked it or not. Elgar did call it a 'Symphonic Study' after all.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

That doesn't mean anything I'm afraid. You might as well say the same thing about Franck's or Dvorak's Symphonic Variations. Falstaff is program music, plain and simple.

[@shantihealer]

Fascinating talk on the evolution of the symphony post--Sibelius - talking of which, any chance of a talk on the phenomenal Symphony No. 1 of Havergal Brian, the Gothic?

[@davidking663]

We…Englund.

[@adrianosbrandao]

There’s another great Danish one-movement symphony: Vagn Holmboe’s 7th. Holmboe, BTW, tried almost everything in his symphonies: 4 movements, 3 movements, 2 movements, 6 all-choral movements, so on and so forth...

[@ftumschk]

I don't often hear about Holmboe these days, but he wrote some mighty fine music.

[@adrianosbrandao]

@@ftumschk He did! I really think that his 5th is one of the greatest neoclassical symphonies. The 2nd is also tons of fun - it really should be on Dave’s “Earquake”.

[@johns9624]

Almost everything Holmboe wrote is worthwhile. His symphonies up to #5 I find pleasant enough but from 5 onwards they're exceptional. The chamber symphonies are just as good, as well as the Symphonic Metamorphoses and the concerti for viola, violin and Orchestra. Lighter works such as the Preludes for Sinfonietta and Chamber Concerti are very enjoyable and undemanding. My only struggle is with the Requiem for Nietsche, which I find a bit pretentious, and the string quartets. For me, his quartets sound like doodles and sketches of ideas for larger-scale works. The fact that he wrote most of them when he wasn't writing his big orchestral pieces suggest that may have been the case.