The Case for Early Icons (w/ Michael Garten)

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[@Seraphim-Hamilton]

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[@johnlardas3221]

Dr. Ortlund handwaved the original st Basil quote but the paragraph where he wrote the honor paid to the image passes to the prototype wasn't twisted to be about iconodoulia, it was explicitly saying that if even the images of kings was venerated, worshipping Christ who is consubstantial with the Father will necessarily pass to the Father. All the online apologists I've seen just let his bad reading stand.

[@MichaelGarten]

Yes 💯. Convenient omission, especially since by that time emperors were Christian and potentially could be saints. My friend John Nusias (According to John channel) has an excellent video which points out that this would make it hard to understand why other images of Saints or Christ would not be venerated. There is an objection which Humphreys raises about this reasoning of “then we would expect Basil to refer to such images so why didn’t he refer to an image of Christ “ but I am working on an article that will answer this. Stay tuned…

[@bjsb6514]

@@MichaelGarten what channel is this video produced by? I tried to search multiple similar searches but couldn’t find anything.

[@MichaelGarten]

@ channel is According to John, title of video “Part 2 - icons and their veneration: Christian attitude towards images in the 4th century”

[@newkingjames1757]

The placement of an image in ones most holy and sacred space is a form of veneration i.e. Dura Europos.

[@evangelus3289]

Throughout the years in my conversations with iconoclastic traditions, the issue, so far, hasn't been the lack of witness to it in Holy Scriptures. Nor is it a lack of witness outside. Rather, it almost always is that they're beholden to the first message they received involving Christianity. If their eyes were opened by a heretical body that is iconoclastic, then it's game over. No biblical witness, no historical witness will shake them out of it because to them, it's like hearing arguments for atheism. They'd rather contort their mind and soul to match what pastor or person said rather than lose what they think is the faith. Can't say i don't sympathise. It's a heavy bomb to oneself if you find out that what you thought was the Gospel might not be exactly what it is. Then your whole existential safety net is starting to have holes. It's scary for sure.

[@alexanderstallings9352]

This is one reason I came to reject Sola Scriptura. No one sits down without any previous exposure or context and reads the scripture; they are given an oral presentation of the gospel from a teacher or pastor. Then anything that contradicts that becomes a challenge to that Tradition that was handed to them.

[@MichaelGarten]

This has a ring of truth to it

[@zalmoxis3707]

This is very wise

[@333Paradigm333]

What your saying might be applicable for a few, but I was saved outside any church setting, I didnt know any Christians, and when I finally sought out my place in the church, I went to a greek orthodox church first. After a couple times I attended, I started seeing people kissing relecs and bowing to the icons, but the spirit of God dwelling inside me told me that something was off about it. I have nothing against the imagery of icons, or that some churches may contain actual relecs, but rather the overboard spiritual focus on these items. The question in my mind is: If praying to the dead saints, venerating icons, veneration of relecs etc. are supposed to be such a large part of the Christian spiritual practice, why is there not a single positive mention, command, precedent, or teaching in all of scripture, OT and NT? I have yet to hear a good answer to this other than appealing to tradition. Perhaps someone could help me undersand how the Othodox church would handle that objection? Many thanks, Ryan

[@MichaelGarten]

@@333Paradigm333 trying to discern these things by privately recognizing the voice of the Holy Spirit is only half of the biblical model. The other half urges us (through examples like Paul and various commands to submit to authority) to discern and trust the Holy Spirit speaking through other Christians, especially the wisest and most holy. These holy faithful people defended not just the divinity of Christ in the first Ecumenical Council, but also His full humanity in the 7th Council (and as a result, the ability to reverence depictions of Him). The Scriptures speak of bowing to the Ark of the Covenant which is both image and relic container. There is also the fact that Christ spoke of Moses exalting the image of the bronze serpent (John 3:14). The word used for lift up in v14 means exalt. So there’s plenty of Scriptural support for venerating icons and relics. I recommend reading Early Icons for more information

[@tudorstancut9332]

This is a very interesting series, as I thought the issue was settled from your first videos. Perhaps it’s my lack of depth, but very good work! May God preserve you.

[@MichaelGarten]

Appreciate it! Honestly, my arguments now are so much tighter and there’s so much corroboration in scholarship that I’ve found since those first videos…. I’m not embarrassed at the first videos but it’s night and day

[@zalmoxis3707]

I have the hard copy of his book, excellent work. Well done, Michael!

[@hannahbaker3080]

I need to get this for my godmothers daughter, who is an iconographer and loves to grow in her knowledge of this. And for me, coming from a low church Protestant, while I originally assented to the authority and witness of the church, there are some mental hurdles to be made, and these conversations really help! Seraphim, have you done any videos on the liturgical aspect of St. Peter’s home? That can benefit many people.

[@Daniel.4321]

Looking forward to the next volume of this work Michael. Keep up the good work. Have you considered publishing the conclusion sections at the end of each chapter on a website to promote discussion and reading of the book?

[@closegripbenchpress489]

Art is no different than words, we just say they are for classification sake. So, if we got a text that says god is holy and should be worshiped when we paint that text or something referenced in it we are basically creating a reflection of the ideas presented on said text. Just like when we see a golden cow we think of idolatry and that it was a bad thing to do, when we see christ we obviously see him as god and to be worshipped. So everytime we see something that references the bibble and a key figure we obviously do so for the purpose of worship. Across all cultures art is mostly a form of celebration and when we add christian doctrine it becomes semi-liturgical.

[@MichaelGarten]

Well said. There are several scholars commenting on early Christian art (Faber, Zimmerman, Leatherby) who view catacomb frescoes and gold glass as prayers in visual form. Much of the art they’re referring to is pre Nicene. It’s very straightforward once we renounce the modern attitude which takes art as primarily a spectator sport instead of immersive and participatory

[@closegripbenchpress489]

@@MichaelGarten yeah, Protestants just dont get to decide what is or what is not (thats the role of tradition) they act very similar to how atheist want to school us on what "christianity" really is. Thank you for doing this amazing job and i hope i'll get to read your work on the future, God has blessed you with a task and he'll guide you throught it as well.

[@MichaelGarten]

@@closegripbenchpress489 thank you for your kind words. Please pray for my efforts, that I will have the energy and resources to do this, and especially some much needed humility

[@feeble_stirrings]

This is certainly fantastic and kudos to Michael on the book! Call me a cynic, but I suspect this will be a case of moved goal posts. It's not dissimilar to when someone objects to the intercession of the Saints saying, "you can just go directly to God!". When you point out the obvious, that we pray for and ask for each others prayers all the time, it then shifts to, "but the saints are dead!". I'm afraid that even if we can clearly prove early Icon veneration, the argument will just shift to the contention that mere proof that it happened is not the same as proof that it was supposed to be happening. And we'll find ourselves right back at what I think is ultimately the linchpin for all Protestant/Evangelical objections: sola scriptura. I enjoy the various discussions happening between us and other traditions, but I sometimes wonder if we should just focus on dismantling sola scriptura first, before delving into all the other differences between Orthodoxy and others. I can very easily see Dr. Ortlund, if forced into a corner on this subject, falling back on "but it isn't in the Bible!".

[@amayasasaki2848]

Exactly. That is how I would expect that it would go.

[@protestanttoorthodox3625]

Well done

[@MichaelGarten]

Thank you. Pray for my efforts and tell others about the book

[@selemonkahasu1189]

I bought the book

[@3isallwesee]

Greet all Gods people with a Holy Kiss. This is the origin of kissing icons. The Saints are alive. Beyond that we can just make the claim that icons covered the temple that Solomon built. On the doors on the curtains and veils on the preists clothes on the Walls inside and out. On the Ark which had two statues on either side. Obviously Proskyneo and its origin in Christian Worship is mainly just kissing your preists hand. Brought on by the Tradition Greet one another with a Holy Kiss. Kissing an icon of a Holy Saint is simply an act of reverence for the memory of that Saint and venerates them in the same way that we do the living and Greet them with a Holy Kiss. Its easy to prove Early Christians had icons like in the Catacombs and from there the whole argument against kissing icons falls apart

[@MichaelGarten]

That’s similar to the ideas behind a lot of the arguments in Early Icons

[@3isallwesee]

@@MichaelGarten Similar I would imagine but is the link between the Holy Kiss and Icons been made? The Holy Kiss is an extremely well attested Scriptural concept; and truthfully its all you really need to show icon veneration is actually not just early in Church History but Scriptural. It doesnt matter if kissing icons had to become a Universal Liturgical concept because the groundwork is all laid out once you bring in the Holy Kiss. Because you then bring in proskyneo of people as a Scriptural command. Kissing is the real issue and kissing is all you need to establish proskyneo. So kissing and bowing low go hand in hand. Its actually so easily solved its crazy.

[@oogaleeboogalee6522]

I find it disturbing but kinda funny the Byzantine iconoclasts destroyed many of the earliest Christian icons, and now 1200 years later modern iconoclasts say the lack of early icons is "proof" the early Church opposed iconography

[@FreshPelmeni]

I've been meaning to buy a copy of Michael's book but they don't sell physical copies on Amazon to Australia and I much prefer the physical format over the digital. Alas, I will have to wait.

[@marincusman9303]

30:20 Michael if you’re a time traveler, please just take a camera back to the first century bro

[@MichaelGarten]

I’ll try

[@derekdavis3004]

You cannot justify idol worship.

[@bradleyperry1735]

No one is doing that.

[@derekdavis3004]

@@bradleyperry1735 Please don't lie to me.

[@bradleyperry1735]

@ No one is lying. You don’t understand what an idol is, nor what worship is.

[@WhoIsLikeHim]

The real problem is, we always venerate images or statues, whether it's flags or founding fathers. In other worrds, you need something to manifest God in this world to remind people that flags or even the founding fathers statues are not the ultimate reality.

[@derekdavis3004]

@ You bow to them, you pray to them. You parade them around and burn incense for them. Why would you do that for men or Mary? Only God deserves such praise.

[@zalmoxis3707]

I have the hard copy of his book, excellent work. Well done, Michael!

[@MichaelGarten]

Thank you! I think people who read it from cover to cover will have a hard time insisting that there was no pre Nicene image veneration. And if someone is more trusting of early tradition, it will move them in the direction of acknowledging an apostolic origin