Five Game Master Mistakes - RPG Philosophy

[@blameitonthebubble5294]

The hardest thing for new DMs to understand at first is that games are not TV shows.

[@larsdahl5528]

... or computer games.

[@andrewlance3898]

There's a lot you can learn from TV shows on how to do a particular story or genre, and there are even systems built to function in a somewhat cinematic manner (_Apocalypse World_ and _Blades in the Dark_ come to mind). However, there's there's also a lot of things that only work in a TV show. It's the same reason video game adaptations to movies don't work - if you try to adapt 1-to-1 the things that the TV show does to the tabletop game, it just won't work. You can't cut to the villains and narrate a scene the PCs don't see. You can't have a certain scene in mind and coerce the players and the game to make that scene happen. And you can't write PCs out of the story for plot convenience (not unless the player in question is absent or something)

[@Meatball996]

The worst combo:New GM, young players and i don't mean like 20 or something i mean like 15 or younger. I was in that scenario when a barbarian found out that as long as he made the hit, cause he probably would, he could 1 hit kill Kobolds by sitting on them

[@Venomousse]

Yes, and I think that goes for the players too. People have a tendency to use what they know for inspiration, so it can take a while to learn what works and what doesn't in an RPG if all you're used to is books, video games and movies.

[@CareerKnight]

@@andrewlance3898 I don't think I have ever seen a movie attempt a 1-to-1 adaptation of a game. Usually (besides just poor writing in general) its the exact opposite where they only thing they share in common with the game is the name.

[@Mallory-Malkovich]

If you end up playing with yourself, you're DMing wrong. Powerful advice.

[@ArawnNox]

If you want to DM for yourself, write a book instead.

[@Meatball996]

It could be fine if you're players are attracted to you

[@felipercalvo]

yeah, once my DM started getting too excited, he dropped his pants and began playing with himself in front of everyone....it definitely felt wrong

[@gnarthdarkanen7464]

At 9 out of 10 Tables I've played at, it's a REALLY good way to run out of those "important" NPC's... I've even "taken the shot" to take out one or both of them in a scenario like the skit in the vid'. In those "interjected" scenes, there's a bit of tolerance for some of the "behind closed doors" insights, BUT it's best to just narrate it. No need for the voice acting, over the top details... just drop the information-dump (preferably not huge) and move on. BUT if the PC's are actually there... yeah... not usually going to "twist the plot" the way the GM is hoping or in any direction he wants. ;o)

[@girlbuu9403]

The scene between the two brothers could be easily fixed without actually changing the content of what happened. Cut out most of the language, just enough lines to get the feel of their tone across, tell the players they are arguing and what they are arguing about instead of playing it out, and either roll their fight before the game or just decide who you want to win. Or let a player take control of one or both characters for the fight to keep them engaged. This isn't hard.

[@danielcox7629]

Seth- "Don't play with your self." Seth- puts on accents instead of actual having people help him make videos.

[@szymonsokolinski9907]

Plot twist:They are all actually different people

[@nevergivethedmideas7252]

@@szymonsokolinski9907 identical quintuplets!

[@DerPatagon]

I've been watching this channel for years and just rewatched this video and only because of your comment, I have finally noticed that the other guys are in fact, all played by Seth. I genuinly thought till just now that they were 4 different guys just putting on silly costumes for the video. I'm so confused now.

[@ZircronSwift]

I've been had!

[@zaaz1471]

it cuts down on production costs

[@ncrtrooper1782]

Sometimes I forget that's Seth wearing fake mustaches and pulling fake accents.

[@blackhammer5035]

It's kind of a shame. I think Dweebles is held back by all the inferior talent on this show and should start his own channel.

[@DA-nk6gx]

@@blackhammer5035 lol. Best hot take I've seen. Cult of Dweebles anyone?

[@ethanlocke3604]

Ok Buddy What do you mean, there’s a bunch of different people, not just Seth

[@harjutapa]

What are you talking about, man? He's just gaming with his buddies.

[@davidbrennan660]

His video presenter avatar needs work...... .

[@Thenarratorofsecrets]

I've "kidnapped" a PC before. but i'd discussed it with him beforehand and had him play one of the NPCs he liked for that session.

[@Number1masksfan]

That would work

[@topherrobeson4446]

What if you kidnap an ABSENT pc to get them out of the session for the day and backfil them later so they arent sitting their bored

[@SSkorkowsky]

If the player misses the game for whatever reason, then kidnapping their PC is probably fine, just as long as they'll be free by the next session. It'd be a bummer to show up to a game and discover your character was kidnapped in the game you missed and now you're sitting there waiting for rescue. OR...before that next session, run them through a 1-on-1 game as to what happened. Maybe they freed themselves and when the group comes together for the next session, they can all play.

[@topherrobeson4446]

@@SSkorkowsky 1 on 1 game was my intent

[@TheodoreMinick]

@@topherrobeson4446 then you are on the way to a home-run.

[@Anacronian]

@@SSkorkowsky Long ago I played in a group with a DM who LOOOVED to kidnap us, I the beginning we didn't think much of it but after a while it got really boring, So we(the players) started kidnapping every single NPC the DM engaged us with, at a point we finally had a full dungeon in one of the players castle. :D

[@averagearchergaming]

@@SSkorkowsky This happened to me during a Twilight: 2000 game. I was absent from a session (blew it off to go on a date) and both the GM and another player were a bit angry because of it. I rejoined the game the next week to find my player tied to a bridge as a makeshift roadblock. I did my best to roll with it, though.

[@KuyVonBraun]

A tip I give novice GMs is to always paraphrase text read aloud to players so that you’re talking to them rather than at them. It’s quite boring for players to sit doing nothing while the GM reads a page & a half of text at them ☺️

[@SSkorkowsky]

This is 1,000% truth.

[@O-D-X]

@@SSkorkowsky Yeah, the biggest issue with this was when I first started running Shadowrun adventures in the early 90s, It has a "Tell it to them Straight" section which was often an entire page of exposition. It took me a while to figure out that is was a good idea to break it into pieces and in between ask players for their reactions.

[@averagearchergaming]

One thing I do with my group these days is make good use of email prep before the session. If I have an intro scene I'd like to play out a certain way, I write it out in narrative form. It is much more entertaining for my players to read a 2-3 page scene on their own time rather than having to sit around a table and passively listen to me do it out loud. I also encourage them to write back their version of the scene from their character's perspective to share with the group. By the time we gather again for the next session, we've got the beginnings of a novelization of the campaign in the works.

[@richmcgee434]

@@O-D-X I think that's really the key - if a module presents you with more than a paragraph (and preferably a short one) of read-to-players text, split it up as much as you can. Digestible chunks and opportunities to act and react are vital.

[@tarsis6123]

@@averagearchergaming This is fantastic. Even more so if your gaming often has a month or so between sessions. It keeps players involved and thinking about your campaign, and that's always fun for any game master.

[@crazycoolcelt7440]

wasnt expecting a skorkowsky video at 2AM, but ill take what i can get in these trying times

[@katyushamarikov8819]

May I offer you an egg in these trying times? 🥚

[@anthonystromeyer1399]

Basically just the flu, bro Roll them D20s with your buds Cowards die many times before their death, the never taste of death but once... Shakespeare's Julius Caesar

[@Anacronian]

You know things are going to be serious when Seth whips out Into Darkness references.

[@BaronVonFisticuffs]

We always called #2 the Shower Scene, since the GM is just playing with himself.

[@oz_jones]

Perfect

[@sapientmuffin]

"NPC Scenes" My brain: Fight the reflective cringe... fight it! (I swear, my players looked interested... the first few times. X.X) Great vid as always Seth. Just joined your Patreon at a measly 1 buck a month but I hope you take it as a small sign of thanks for your awesome content. Keep doing your thing! Still planning on getting a book of yours, just finishing up my first read of Gibson's Sprawl trilogy! Cheers.

[@SSkorkowsky]

Thank you very much for your support. The tricky part with NPC scenes is they can easily become longer than you anticipate them being. And player interest has two real settings: "This is great and has my complete interest," and "I'm bored and sick of this." There isn't much in between and can flip from good to bad in the length of a single sentence. The general rule on that is the audience's interest is about half as long as you think it is. So best be fast, get in and get out with the NPC scene before you lose the players' interest. Even if they say they want more... the truth is they probably won't like it as much as they think they would. Best to leave them wanting more than giving them too much.

[@sapientmuffin]

@@SSkorkowsky this is great advice and I'll be keeping it in mind tonight as I'm running my game. Thanks Seth!

[@superjanembaishappy5512]

I would argue the NPC scene can work IF: -You ask your players beforehand -You keep it short -There is no combat the PCs can't engage with

[@jordentaylor2455]

And I would add it has to be functional to the story.

[@ThatYoungling]

1 through 3 can all work just fine with just a single caveat: Your players are cool with it. Seth's players seem to be the types that may not engage readily with those types of scenarios, and he may not be at a comfort level as a GM to do those scenarios, and that's fine for his table, but I use these techniques to great success at my table. It just depends on your players and your skill level and/or comfort as a GM.

[@zaranorth8137]

I have the opposite problem with my current group. My players love the NPCs I come up with (I feel like most of them are 2 dimensional, but hey, if the players like them I guess that's fine). They're gotten upset when I gloss over an otherwise lengthy interaction or try to get the PCs involved. I can totally see my players wanting my to run an NPC vs NPC fight.l while they stand around and watch. Having had mutiple 2- and 3-way NPC conversations, I hate it, but my players sit there going, "Ohhh snap, what an insult Sir Ourfavoriteguy just gave! I can't wait to see how Lord Highnmighty responds!" Meanwhile I'm desperately trying to find an out.

[@girlbuu9403]

It would be better as something you wrote and e-mailed to them between sessions.

[@VirtueCry]

I ended up doing an NPC scene because my players were demanding every detail about a conflict between two NPCs. The NPCs were reluctant, which forced the PCs to keep prompting them for answers, as every question created a new question only the other NPC could answer. Although the prompting kept the PCs engaged, it was also getting repetitive. The two NPCs got into an argument that resulted in a quick exchange of answers. It became one of the most notable things to happen that session.

[@Socialdogma]

The NPC monologuing for #2 was epic.

[@horatiussonofrome812]

I got such cringe chills from the DM solo skit I had to skip it. Well done Seth on recreating awful moments so well!

[@Lcirex]

1st love the shirt. 2nd I had a player once tell me love an Npc and wanted to have him as a backup opinion if his character died and had started playing his character more recklessly. So I had his character kidnapped while he took over the npc to help rescue his original character after saving his character he had his love for his rekindled allover again. It was a fun chance for him to get a short break from his character and came back to the character stronger.

[@EliteRacist]

That's a pretty nice shirt! Those three guys look kind of familiar.

[@vesperschake6241]

Glad I'm not the only one staying up late to watch rpg KZbin videos.

[@RyanPercy]

For an example of tinkerer having an impact. I played a character in Only War (40k Imperial Guard RPG) who's main non-gun combat style was specced into grappling. We were on the trail of some alien mercenaries called Kroot who were stowed away on the ship and managed to fight them to the point the leader was about to run away. Now when my character grappled the leader, a Kroot which is a mutant and psychic Kroot, I inflicted a negative effect (via the luck of the dice I was hoping for) that meant it could only take a half turn on its next turn. The shaper had the power to turn insubstantial as a half-turn move and the GM wanted it to do that to have it escape. However I told the GM that by the grapple rules, which my character was built around, it couldn't because when you are the grappled character you MUST spend your first half-turn of any turn you're grappled by taking the grapple action yourself to try to either resist it, escape or take control. The GM pulled Rule Zero and I felt like what could have been a cool moment, my character risking his life to pin down the BBEG of the session so it couldn't escape for just one more desperate turn, was taken away just to preserve the life of an NPC that never came up again in the narrative.

[@bosskeith1]

Him stacking dice ROFL. I have been there.

[@KS-nm6rt]

I always wonder just how closely based Todd, Mike and Dweebles are on Seth's own group. Surely there must be some resemblance :)

[@UnstoppableFloridaMan]

Back to OG lists I’m liking it Seth!

[@danacoleman4007]

OG = oblivious gamemaster?

[@UnstoppableFloridaMan]

Dana Coleman I see what you did there lol.

[@danielpucher3367]

In the Kidnapper scenario. You could use that to allow your player that really likes trying new builds to bring in an alt character.

[@XX-sp3tt]

Heh, might have been fun if when you chatted about game balance, we saw Jack with an oversized ray gun that is completely overpowered for the adventure. :-)

[@CasaiAgicap]

I had a DM kidnap a party member and replace him with a shapeshifter. The way he made it work was telling the kidnapped player in advance, and when he gave a tell, suddenly the player just started attacking us. The difference was he still got to play, just knew to RP slightly differently, and even got to RP the beginning of the fight. I think this was a great way to do it tbh.

[@raphaa16]

One that makes me very petty is when the DM disregards you backstory, "Oh, you're sister isn't you're sister, you were kids that lived together in the same lab, your memories are all made up"

[@elaxter]

The Tinkerer can be a huge problem in GURPS. While GURPS does encourage playing with the rules, being a modular system and all, it really helps to go along with the simplest rules or follow a guide for what rules would fit the type of game you'd like to run. The biggest example of a failing of GURPS is when I joined a game where the GM wanted to emphasize realism. He changed the melee weapon skills, buffed up armor (he perceived them to be too low), enforced "realistic" fatigue, and made travel a nightmare. When our party had to travel through a jungle, it was a 2 hour slog of rules and rules and rules, and would have made any new player horrified of the system and never want to play again.

[@HuevoBendito]

The Bespectacled RPG Man delivers his wisdom again!

[@troty99]

Also a possiblity for your first point is to abduct a PC and let him play his back up character with the rest of the team. It still keeps the tension up, let the player play , lets him experiment with its back up in a way that makes narrative sense and make it easier to introduce him to the party.

[@c99kfm]

#2 tends to happen, often caused by players getting NPCs involved in conflict resolution. At that point, I'll relinquish the roles of the NPCs for the duration of the encounter - if the players have nothing better to do, they can control my NPCs for me (with some insight into their motivations, and stats if combat arises, of course). #4 is me. Always and ever. That's why I'm working on my own system, which I know will never be finished. :/ #5 is my players. "Can't we re-run that adventure?" I know the NPC dialogue from the module by heart, and I think they do, too...they love it, but I hate it.

[@jeremysmatana2592]

To be fair to the Star Trek flick, the transport-somebody-across-the-galaxy thing was for the most part established in the previous film, when Original Spock discovered Kelvin Scotty stuck in a remote outpost and taught him the formula for transporting at great distance and at warp, that Original Scotty originally taught Spock, so that they could transport Kelvin Kirk and Kelvin Scotty onto the Enterprise from across the galaxy. So... kudos to them for continuity?

[@girlbuu9403]

You are psychic, and your telepathic powers reach through both time and space. Not the first time this has happened, but every caveat I can think of you usually cover splendidly before I even have time to prematurely post it. I have captured a single PC before, but it is because they did something like wander off by themselves and the alternative was whatever they bumped into killing them. Even then, I let them talk it out with the villain NPC- who they ended up liking quite a lot and in return for sparing their life they had the rest of the party- the rescue party hahaha dad jokes- spare the NPC. That was a fun moment in what could have otherwise been a pretty awful session.

[@00Clank]

The idea of GMing the same campaign, heck even the same one-shot, again with the same players immediately after they've already done it is so antithetical to me it had never crossed my mind and inspired immediate revulsion. I can understand being excited to see how the new characters will tackle the story in new and exciting ways, getting to compare the two playthroughs, but that's what taking it to a new set of players is for.

[@0x777]

1) Kidnapping a player character can actually allow the game to go forward when a player can't make it for a few weeks, e.g. because he's away for work or on holiday. I'd highly recommend discussing it with the affected player, though, preferably away from the rest of the party. Usually, it turns out great. The player feels appreciated that you make his character the focus of a story line and that you allow him to be on your side of the table, you could actually give him a few bits of information that his character would gain during being kidnapped that he can then relay to the rest of the party after he is rescued, turning him from damsel in distress to a key information giver and pulling him out of the passive role again. And the rest of the party will like that the game doesn't stall just because one of them cannot be around for a week or two. 2) Exposure dumps are horrible, agreed, but in highly social games (like my favorite Vampire the Masquerade) unfortunately hard to avoid since the player characters are usually not among the high ranking beings around and observing something is often more informative than interacting with it, and it gives the PCs the chance to gather information without exposing themselves, which may be preferable in scheming and backstabbing societies. If an exposure dump is necessary, my solution is usually to get the players involved by letting them tell me what they do, what they watch, what they focus on, have them roll spot checks and pick up social cues, try to give each of them a bit of information that only their character gets so they will eventually come together after the scene and share that information among them to puzzle back together the whole picture, generating RP that way. And whatever you do, avoid rolling down a battle between NPCs, nobody cares about that. :) 3) I actually studied statistics and got my degree in it to ensure my house rules don't break the game. No joke. My thesis is on game rules and balancing effects, how to avoid overcompensation and regression analysis on player and equipment stats to ensure long term viability of rules under growing player power and how to balance it against NPC progression. Did it allow me to bring balance to the for... game? Nope, sorry. Players are better at abusing game mechanics than statistics is at keeping them from doing it. So, take my advice, don't suffer through courses like I did, it doesn't pay. My suggestion here is, talk to the players before implementing a house rule. Tell them that you want to try something, that you think it could enhance the game, but also tell them that it will be reverted if it breaks the game. In general, players are in this for the same reason you are, to create a fun and interesting game and they are usually quite willing to try something, even if it turns out to not work. Yes, they'll not enjoy it when you take their magic blood away or whatever other powerful artefact they have, especially if they went through some serious hardship to acquire it, but in general, if you can explain it to them and how it keeps the game from being exciting, because if there is no chance for failure, what reward does victory still hold, they usually will agree. 4) Very good advice. Every GM has made decisions on the spot that eventually turned out to be horrible moving foward. I usually just let it stand as it was, tell the players before the next game session that this decision was wrong and, while it will stand, it's not gonna be how we're gonna move forward, then simply close the lid on it. 5) Reruns are less of a problem in my experience than persistent plot themes. Some GMs have a tendency to run the same kind of story over and over, changing out the backdrop and costumes but essentially running the same plot over and over. I vividly remember one GM who thought it's clever to run murder mystery based plots where the culprit is always the least likely one, leading to parties going to bizarre lengths to find out the NPC that is the least involved in the plot and could by no means be the culprit, because that usually was it. A bit of variety goes a long way.

[@rateater1857]

trying to avoid npc-to-npc conversations in vtm is like trying to dodge bullets in an empty room with a shooter in each corner

[@MikeMinMD]

I did this recently - Had the missing character kidnapped by slavers from the feywild. They had trouble keeping him under control, he would break free then do damage before being knocked out again, the party pursued these guys across the prime material plane and into the feywild, made contact with the Sidhe warrior guards of a major city, met the lycanthrope residents of a forbidden forest who helped them catch up to the slavers, and finally broke the character out as well as several other slaves. And in the main campaign a totally different party shut down a slaver operation in the underdark and was unable to stop several slaves from being pushed through a gate - to the feywild, as it turned out - and took over the mercenaries, paid them better than the head slavers did, and now have a base of operations and a force of mercs working for them. The slaves that went through the gate ended up in the feywild at the other slave fortress where they were liberated a day later, so that was fun. :) Yes, I'm running 2 campaigns, yes they interlink sometimes, and yes I am totally insane to try doing this.

[@stevenjhancock]

I had a PC abducted, when the player couldn't make a session. But I did a phone call with them, and played out a few short scenes where they had the opportunity to resist interrogation, leave "bread-crumbs" for their comrades - all of which had an impact on the main session they were absent from.

[@oz_jones]

1) i would throw hands if my character died because i missed a session

[@0x777]

@@oz_jones It's a given that the kidnapped character gets padded in very, very solid plot armor. ;)

[@grantwilson4506]

I was part of a year-long game where the party would often be split up. 3 of us sat in a different room for about 6 hours straight and then my groups' section was about 10 minutes before the group came together. The split-ups continued, the DM all the while never understanding that it was pointless and everyone hated it, since he forced everyone to share what they experienced once the party reunited anyway.

[@andrewt3797]

Kidnapping a PC can be a decent way to deal with a player who has to miss a few sessions for whatever reason.

[@ArawnNox]

"I suggest Game Masters try the rules as written first" THIS! I can't tell you how often I've seen GMs who think they're so much smarter than the game designers and they start houseruling and homebrewing before they even run their first session. I'm a huge proponent of "run it as written first, get a feel for it, THEN start fiddling with it one you've seen the rules in action." Edit: On inconsistency. This is something I had to deal with recently because 5e DnD has an issue where Investigation and Perception overlap. I started forgetting my own method of appilication and the module I was running wasnt consistent in their usage either. So, addressing that frustration with my players, I sat down and wrote a bunch of sub-rules for how to apply it in a consistent manner that can be referred to by all of us.

[@johanneskaiser8188]

That depends a bit in my experience. If you get into systems that have similar rules (like derivates from D&D 3.5, or all the FF 40k games) you can go through the book and apply prior knowledge to already find some screws to tighten or loosen. If trying out new systems, however, I completely agree that one should play a bit before deciding what works and what doesn't. EDIT: Comes with its own set of problems, because in the GM's head a rule might float over from one game to another and cause confusion (them being similar enough but having their own rules that only allpy to one game). Definitely did not happen to me multiple times....errr....what'ya lookin' at? Nothing to see! :D Also there might be some "standard rules" a GM always uses for all games that might, depending on the game, not even interfere with the rules as written but with others heavily so.

[@gma5607]

Now to be fair it would be no great feat to outsmart 5e's designers.

[@CrashSable]

I would take that further. If you're making a homebrew rule because you think you're smarter than the designers EVER then you're wrong and shouldn't be making homebrew rules. If you're making a homebrew rule because you recognise the system in place is useful for a certain type of game, but you want to tweak it a bit to allow for a different style of play, that's better (but you'd probably be better off trying an entirely different system).

[@tukman16]

I see that all the time too and it really annoys me. I mean, dude thinks he is a genius to outsmart whole teams of developers who dedicated WORKING HOURS to that system. Of course some outputs are bad, but the fact that it wasn't tried at first means that there is a high risk they are replacing it with something worse. It is just so frustrating... Play the game before thinking about change the game

[@gma5607]

@@CrashSable Games designers are not not a special class of people who only ever make good rules.

[@gottakeepemseparated]

In a L5R game not too long ago I had the hostage situation. We were playing a spirit/tainted-heavy game and I wanted to try out the new Kuni Warden, and at the amount of XP we were the end result was fairly strong. Naturally, being a Kuni my character wanted to destroy all tainted beings, but there was one the GM obviously wanted to be more powerful than its stats allowed. I was toe-to-toe with it for some three rounds or so, with the GM warning how powerful it was (good luck when it couldn't hit my agile monk butt), then I got a knockout arrow to the back from an NPC and just knocked unconscious for the next couple sessions. Probably would've been more, but the game died.

[@christofferhanssonfrumerie8902]

1:20 considering his t-shirt, he's probably ok with that.

[@DrFranklynAnderson]

Took me a minute, but bravo. 😆

[@TheSmart-CasualGamer]

He WANTS to be sedated. As he's been kidnapped he also has nothing to do and nowhere to go. He WANTS to be sedated.

[@notme6966]

My DM has add one house rule she found on tik tok. Death Saves are done by the DM so we don't know how much someone is dying or not. They still had us vote on it to see if we wanted it. It passed with flying colors. Then I realized that as the cleric that was the most nerve wracking for me. XD I regret everything lol.

[@markcochrane9523]

Looking at example 2 I immediately thought "Just let the players roll the dice for the brothers, that'll keep them busy at least". I'm planning to do something similar in the Mutants&Masterminds campaign I'm running; whenever there's a lot of heroic NPCs in a scene, I'll simply let the players control them.

[@jesternario]

I have this one module called Under the Tavern. It is a system agnostic adventure module with five-level dungeon that the players explore during a dark and stormy night. Because it requires you to provide your own game system, monsters, traps, and treasure, this module acts as a framework that has allowed me to run the same adventure three times for three different groups. Each time was fun and completely different. In one the players breezes through everything, while the other was a challenging adventure that caused the death of a character when they fell four stories to their doom (and involved that group bronco busting a gorgon). But even though You can change up the monsters and treasure, the story is always the same, so I wouldn’t run this again for the same group unless a major change happened, such as the author making an extra five levels as a revisit to the adventure (which he is doing).

[@DerDieDasBoB]

Great T-shirt Seth, really love your actors, they deserve more screen time.

[@nathanjanke4912]

Yes! Another video from Seth. I love your content man, can't wait for the next video!

[@sylvanswan5466]

Hi Seth 👋 thanks for the great video! Always great to see sci-fi ttrpg play examples in videos!

[@tagabundok1]

I started laughing my butt off when you began rolling in a combat between the Thurmond brothers. It felt like watching a nightmare being built.

[@dinoblacklane1640]

Funnily enough, I watched this just after finishing my game today, which involved a player getting kidnapped Of course though the player also woke up after being knocked out and got to actually do things, like helping find where they were. Also turns out being a ninja means youre pretty good at fighting people while blindfolded and cuffed to a table

[@joelbailey62]

Always paranoid when these start that I'm going to find something I'm doing wrong as a GM but glad when I don't 😂

[@finnmchugh99]

I discovered this channel when I was researching pulp cthulhu and since then I can't stop watching these videos. I wonder if seth might review Mutants and Masterminds 3rd Edition or Starfinder in the future, regardless I like these vids

[@jacobrobinson5606]

one mistake I kept making is that players would what the objective I set for them. I played a Black crusaded game I set the objective as to burn a hive city down but the player were much more interested in taking it over and founding a chaos empire inside the imperium. (they were talking for a character point of view the player new hoe hopeless that would be in there world "if where looky the imperium wont notice for at least 50 years by then we should have evener assened or be mostly dead.)

[@GrandGobboBarb]

re-runs can be fun if everyone is on board. my players like trying different routes through campaigns out and seeing how things derail in new and exciting ways. but gods never do that shit without their ok first

[@NeonSheepProductions]

These make me smile, love your videos

[@edlaprade]

I've done the Tinkerer a few times, but, thankfully, none of the others. Great advice, as always. Keep up the good work and stay safe!

[@Jamesmy]

The fight between Lord Thurman and his brother really made me laugh!

[@nes819]

O no. I'm a tinkerer. Welp, at least i'm making notes on the changes to keep it consistent.

[@konberner170]

I've only experienced the first mistake. I was playing a very twitchy and paranoid Malkavian vampire in Vampire: The Masquerade. Having written 3 pages of backstory on the character, and shared it with the Storyteller, I felt perfectly in character as I had Violet run out of a spooky mansion where she sensed there would be an ambush. She decided to lurk outside near the windows and follow the party's progress stealthily at a close distance. Well, there was indeed an ambush in the next room, and rather than rewarding me for both the excellent roleplaying as well as allowing Violet to help the team from outside via her insight, the Storyteller decided that I was making his life a little harder having to deal with what amounted to a split team and promptly said, "A gargoyle swoops down and carries you away, then locks you in a barrel of blood." No rolls, no nothing, just being put into the naughty corner on a whim. The rest of the party survived the encounter, which took over well over an hour to resolve before he let me out. What fun! Subsequently, when Violet acted erratically (as intended) in the next session, he said, "I don't like characters who are rats." apparently meaning that he only wanted strict adherents to the Masquerade with no deviation, and created a special subplot to "redeem my character" from her wrongheaded ways. Basically meaning that I couldn't play the character that I created and shared with him before the campaign started. In retrospect, this was so bizarre that I wonder if the character reminded the guy of his mother or something and he couldn't handle it, because I've never before or since seen so much being singled out and controlled in over 40 years of playing RPGs.

[@oz_jones]

That's weird. Never played the TTRPG Vampire, but if that stipulation of not breaking the Masquerade wasnt told in advance I would have been PISSED. Like I do get it, since it's a big thing but jeez. Also I would have been even more pissed if I was one of the other players and we had died because we were down a player.

[@konberner170]

@@oz_jones Well.. the Storyteller was claiming that I was playing my character as a "rat" intentionally. That isn't breaking the Masquerade that I know of, and it seemed entirely in line with the Malkavian madness to be erratic. My best guess is that it was inconvenient for him that I split the party, and so he deleted me from the gameplay. Just a story though, I'm not complaining because I just found another game.

[@poesero]

i miss your videos and i didn´t know it

[@kmoustakas]

That is the best representation of playing with yourself ever :D

[@Pannlord]

Great episode. I've seen and suffered through all of these except for The Rerun. My honorable mention for this list goes to dragging out the start of a campaign. I'm sick and tired of playing out how the characters meet and gain each others' trust, encounter some kind of quest giver, negotiate rewards, buy equipment, and so on for several game sessions. When I GM, I just plop the characters into the first room of the dungeon and say something like "You clearly remember Lord Sootbeard's words 'I want that golden scepter, find the damn hobgoblin that stole it!' There are two doors leading north and one leading east. What do you do?"

[@markfaulkner8191]

I love that shirt!

[@lux_fero]

I used kidnaping scenario to make a session then player couldn't come to a game

[@guitarlover1204]

great video! However, i disagree with a couple o'f the points in here :T While i agree that most of these are hard to pull off, i am by no means a super amazing GM and yet i have pulled them off successfully with different groups of players, just to go over some tips to make that happen: 1.- kidnapper: Don't keep it secret to the player you are about to kidnap. Make it a plot point your player is aware of. That way you can create a backup character for them to play while they are kidnapped, or figure out ways to get them to escape captivity. You could also, when talking to the player, realize that they would not like that to happen (it's rare, since most of the time players are completely on board with these things, but could happen) in which case you just dodged a bullet. The point is to make sure you get player conscent and a backup plan BEFORE it happens, so that the excitement can still happen without the problems described in the video. Also just a sidenote to all GMs out there: splitting the party is not the end of the world, in fact, most of the time it makes for t he most memorable moments in RPGs. Making a solo adventure of the kidnapped character's escape to play in a solo session in between the main ones is super easy and will make that player feel like john wick. Simply making "cuts" between the main party and the split character is also super easy to pull off and gives a new vibe to the game. Balance is not that much of a problem if you understand your game and/or don't play by the rules (but more on that later). 2.- The NPC scene: this one's easy, as seth said just keep it short. But also, make sure your players are actually invested in what's going on. If none of your players has any reason to care (or they have every reason to care but they just don't care as players) then there's no reason to extend the scene. Just summarize it, maybe they will find it neat, maybe they will not, either case they didn't care about it so just move on. But, if your players are into the story, if they have a personal stake or just like these characters and want to see what happens, then fucking go for it! act it out, be dramatic! they will love it and feel like they are watching actual people, more so than a crazy person talking to themselves. Some general markers tho: make sure your players CAN interject, this is a general good rule of thumb for ANY scene you conduct, but seriously make sure your players can interact with it if they so choose, don't get married to an outcome, be flexible in how the scene will flow. Also, make sure NEVER TO ROLL FOR THINGS THAT ARE PURELY NARRATIVE. If you need to murder Caesar, just murder Caesar, don't roll for the 14+ attacks made with regular daggers and then add their dex mod to hit.... just tell the players "they start stabbing the fucker, he ded" 3.- The tinkerer: There is an RPG philosophy that i just don't agree with, and that is that rules are some sort of gospel. That there are things that can "break" your game. Now, a lot of you will tell me immediately that there definitely ARE things that can break your game; things like some spells in D&D, certain items, and other implements that when you use them, interact with other rules in such ways that when running the game with rules as written, make for a very bad experience. Items that do too much damage and end up ending encounters too soon, abilities that just negate the need for resources so survival settings are impossible to run... well all these assume that you do not change ANYTHING else on the system... and that's the problem. I personally LOVE tinkering with the systems i use. I do not think the rules are sacred, i don't think they should be held up as anything other than some guys' ideas on how to run a game, and that's it. If a piece of tech does too much damage, bump up enemies' hp, if only one player has such items, attack them first, and then make sure the others get one too. If one player powergamed their way to a super efficient build, create encounters that can't be accomplished through the skills that build specializes on. If you ditch initiative in 5e (which makes for a super fun game btw) and it's messing up with the monk's abilities, just do a quick houserule of how it should work, try it, adjust it, rinse and repeat. The worst thing you can do is believe your tinkering is ever fully complete, you will have to keep massaging the system until it works again, and every new situation that challenges your houserules will require more massage. So basically this point is more about lazy tinkerers than tinkerers in general. 4.- inconsistency: that image looks like a dick, that's all i have to say really i don't disagree with this point. 5.- the rerun: yeah, pretty good too. good points, nothing to say here.

[@jesternario]

Here's a fun trick to try with the NPC on NPC dialog, and I used it to great effect in one roleplay heavy game, though it does require players willing to play ball and not go murder-hobo on you. Get some index cards for the NPCs that will be in the scene and put 3 stats on them (for D&D, I do Combat, Social, Stealth. For others, I do physical, social, mental), and rate them appropriately. Next, on a second index card write down the motivations and goals for that scene, as well as a few notes on their personality (try to keep each less than three sentences). Take all of that and put it in a sealed envelope, which you will then write the name of the NPC and a player on. When the scene comes up, hand the envelope to the chosen player, who will then play that NPC for the scene. As they're NPCs, they are ultimately under your control and you have final say on what they will and won't do, but this allows players to be active in a scene where the NPC has center stage, especially in one where the PCs aren't present.

[@danacoleman4007]

Wow, That's a super cool idea!

[@richmcgee434]

Takes some prep work but sounds like a great idea, at least for experienced/confident (not always the same thing) roleplayers who can comfortably jump between roles.

[@arakasi2]

The only time I've successfully pulled off the abduction storyline was when I replaced the character with a doppleganger. I spoke to my player before the game and she had great fun role-playing a doppleganger who was role-playing a slightly naive fighter type. I had a blast watching her subtlely portray the frustration of being the smartest person in the room but being forced to act like an idiot. We only pulled it off because the player is an excellent role player and I was prepared to toss the whole plot thread out if she wasn't comfortable trying it.

[@AnthonyBooK]

I WANT THAT T-SHIRT!

[@CFilmer]

Ouff... I'm 100% a Tinkerer. So far, I didn't have trouble with it.

[@vickieden1973]

I did kidnap a PC once, but only to avoid killing them. That PC had gone off solo without telling the other PCs and walked straight into what turned out to be the BBEG's lair, since the player missed or misinterpreted my cues. In the player's defense, no one knew that the BBEG was one of the NPCs they'd been interacting with all this time, so going to that NPC's ship solo to chastise them about their apparent romantic shenanigans (long story) would have seemed like setting up another social scene. Instead, the PC (a female warlock) did not find the NPC on the deck, so she strode through the ship like she owned the place, and accidentally discovered the lair of the kenku assassins they'd been investigating. The warlock was shot with a couple of poisoned hand crossbows plus 2d6 sneak attack, and due to some bad saves (and having a Con score of 8), succumbed to the poison before she could escape the ship. I'm loathe to kill PCs outright, so I decided that the kenku kept her alive, tied her up, and would present her to the BBEG. She woke up later so that the villain could monologue at her (revealing some information earlier than expected as a consolation prize) and then leave her "to die" in a fiendish death-trap that she could, and did, escape from. And this might have all turned out well... if the rest of the players had actually /cared/ about that particular PC. Now, to be fair, this warlock did have a knack for offending everyone she spoke to (NPC and PC alike) and I'll admit, the memory of knocking her out with drow sleeping poison still gives me the warm fuzzies. Unfortunately, while I was describing the scene with the BBEG, the other players were all busy discussing the fact that their PCs weren't going to be looking for her, because they were just relieved that she wasn't around for a while... which, of course, offended the warlock's player, so that even after escaping and returning to the party, he refused to share information gained from the BBEG with the rest of the PCs. The PCs still found it out later, as intended, and the game was only a session or two away from conclusion at that point... but still, what could have been an awesome (if unexpected) sequence of events ended up being a source of irritation for all involved :\

[@lockwoan01]

One GM issue might be Not being Aware of Supplemental Materials, with a related one being Not Reading Them. Now, if you only have the core rulebooks, okay, but if someone says that they are using a supplement, it might be a good idea to borrow the book and read it between sessions. I actually got my DM on that one. (D&D5e) We'd had a minor argument over if the Celestial warlock was Official - to be fair, I had no proof, but I thought that it was. Then I borrowed Xanathar's Guide to Everything from the library, and found it. Next session, I was going to show it to them, when I found that another player (who hadn't been at the previous session) had the very book itself.... I got him to show the page to the DM, who was sport enough to read it. The DM froze, and did one of those thousand-yard stares. Two things to note - guy had been playing for about 20 years, and had served as a Marine overseas in Afghanistan, and had seen a few things. I don't know what all happened to him in his mind at that moment, but when he looked at me, there was a mixture of shock and awe. Then I got him on a basic Ranger ability in regards to favored terrain and tracking capabilities.

[@antonimaruniewicz1361]

i love your vids and i don't even play that much rpgs ;) lots of love from poland!

[@brandoftheraisin]

I’m curious, have any of y’all re-played an adventure or campaign with the same players as different characters and had fun? I haven’t done something like that yet but I liken it to replaying a fun video game or rewatching a good movie and noticing new things.

[@barrydunn1907]

I hate reruns as a GM. I prefer to avoid running a scenario twice even for different groups. Sometimes it’s requested but not something I particularly enjoy.

[@frederickhogrefe7459]

As someone who has DMed for 20 years, and is a lifelong tinkerer - I rebuff your scandalous claims sir! Never once have I hopelessly and completely derailed a campaign through a disastrous mix of mechanical ignorance and creative arrogance! All of my embarasingly time consuming and overly elaborate game alterations have always worked out perfectly, and I have no soul crushing regrets, whatsoever! A pox on you, sir, for ur misleading words! Tinkerers unite!

[@larsdahl5528]

Yes, the "End Your Campaign Gracefully" skill is useful, here! - Ensures the end stuff before things go completely bad. BTW: This video is about GM (Good Master) mistakes, not DM (Disaster Master) mistakes.

[@stanard_bearer]

#5 ... oh that's me, I use one same area in all my campaigns. good thing there's tons to do there. like 11 different bosses and you can only really deal with 2 before everything comes to a head and you need to leave, so in a way it's different but it's still the same.

[@Adrian_Lee6113]

Awesome, love going to sleep and a Seth video comes out. Totally serious actually. So fun to listen to before nighty night.

[@roleplayer5564]

Don't do reruns Every D&D player: let's do curse of strahd again!

[@yipyipyipi]

Abducting a single PC can be done right by using the following options: A: keep it incredibly short. By having them be abducted, and wake up in a van driving who-knows-where, you can get that momentary fear, right before having the van get rammed off the road by their allies, or even using the opportunity to introduce a new npc who saw the kidnapping and sprang into action. B: talk to them beforehand, and make sure they are okay with this. If they are, let them either control an established NPC or a new character who cam help get them back, so they have someone to play while the rescue commences.

[@DrSheep-gu6ly]

A great variation to the rerun I sometime use if some players are old and some new is to have returning locations in a somewhat revolving world. For example the town of silvercliff has appeared in all of my campaigns, it's always a big economically thriving city, but the rulership changes, power dynamics flipped between the lower class and the upper class, complete anarchy or destruction. This lets my old players feel at home in a town they finally recognize and lets them kind of use that veteran card while the newer players get to explore a massive city with plenty of fleshed out details.

[@danacoleman4007]

Very cool idea!

[@zbyszkoklockiewicz2149]

Wow, that NPC scene was painful to watch. Really could feel the boredom of other players, that's an effective deterrent.

[@samchafin4623]

My name is Sam, and I'm a tinkerer.

[@randalthor6670]

Damn Seth, you just threw that poor movie under the bus.... err, the Subsidized Liner.

[@williamaitken7533]

Regarding the "cutaway to NPCs talking among themselves," I've actually seen a couple of streamed games where the DM includes interludes like this. I think as long as it's a stylistic choice and is consistent throughout the adventure, then it's fine. For example, Adam Koebel does this in his games. I think it helps the players (and audience in the case of streamed games) know when NPCs are more important or as a way to introduce sideplots/scheming without it coming out of nowhere.

[@CantusTropus]

Very good advice all around. As regards kidnapping, however, one of the things I love about Monster of the Week is how it allows the GM to "get away with" certain narrative contrivances via player moves. For instance, if a Chosen player picks the move that gives them visions of the upcoming adventure and fails their roll, the GM gets a point that they can "spend" to screw them over later. This doesn't feel cheap, because A)the player chose that move to begin with fully knowing this could happen, B)the player had to fail a roll for it to turn out this way, and C)MOTW, like other Apocalypse World-inspired games, gives you XP for failing rolls, so at least they got something out of it anyway. Similarly, the Mundane class (whose special gimmick is being a normal person in a team of weirdos) has special moves that give them XP for running off alone to investigate, and another one that gives them MORE XP for being kidnapped by the monster! If you build a Mundane with both of those moves, the GM is practically obliged to kidnap your character at least once a session just to ensure you get good mileage out of your moves! And again, this doesn't feel cheap at all, since a player who built such a character would practically be signalling the GM that they wanted their character kidnapped regularly to move the plot forward.

[@richmcgee434]

The Mundane mechanics remind me of a GURPS character I saw in one game who had a quirk "Smells good to monsters" or somesuch. Also Weirdness Magnet, just to make sure he was regularly sniffed, licked, and abducted by all sorts of critters.

[@mackdebruin999]

Luv your channel Seth!!!!

[@Monsedo]

Ok im gonna be the guy who asks a weirdly specific question bout a background Prop... The Ship Layout you showed on 9:53 looks like a weird layed out scout type from traveler, but I havent seen that in any of the books... at least the ones I own... and it looks a lot more detailed than any that I've see. So I was wondering where you got that?

[@SSkorkowsky]

That's the Scout Ship for Mongoose Traveller 2e. (They have the 2D deckplans on their site for free, BTW). I colored parts of it in Photoshop (bit hard to tell since the skit was in B&W) them blew it up to scale with the minis to use in our Traveller games.

[@Monsedo]

@@SSkorkowsky Wow im amazed by that quick reply thank you very much. Since I live in Germany I only own localized books but I thought that the graphics published in those books (which I purchased sometime in the mid 2010s) would at least contain the same graphics. Now I feel a little cheated, because even when I bought the books, i noticed the formating of the floorplans was weird, as in sometimes missing descriptions or just being on the wrong pages or inconsistantly translated. I just thought those were artifacts of those graphics maybe being direct copies from the 1977 editions and thereby not easy to digitize and consequently hard to edit. I suspected those floorplans you showed to be from some bonus module or something. Now seeing that Mongoose published perfectly fine Floorplans in a core book in 2015 makes me feel weird about the publishers here...

[@larsdahl5528]

0:51 The Kidnapper 2:37 The NPC Scene 5:24 The Tinkerer Inconsistent 7:41 9:38 The Rerun I may admit I have committed #1, though I had a good reason, as I was trying to implement an advice about how to deal with a domineering player: Force that player out for a while, for to give the other players space. I think #2 is just one of the tools "The Theater GM" uses (You know the GM where the only thing the players can do is be spectators like if they was in a theatre). - Usually done with the BBEG - (B)ig (B)ad (E)go (G)amemaster. #5 is bad if you do it with the same players. - I have seen a GM doing it, but with a new set of players each time, and in that case it was brilliant! - It was an interesting study in how extremely different each group handles a story!

[@mroiddzhem7311]

I see what you did there

[@ericsmith1508]

5:02 If i can't play with myself in front of my players then i just don't know what this game is even about anymore!!!!! LOL

[@Isdezenaambezet]

I kidnapped my whole party before, they had to do some dark shit to get out, leading to several players amending their alignment as a result.

[@EvilSandwich]

One massively huge Tinkerer mistake is to look at a game like D&D with a resurrection mechanic and say, "That makes death meaningless! There's no tension or stakes with that! Resurrection magic is now either impossible or way harder to pull off now!" And then, they fail to realize that half the monsters in the adventure have instant death attacks. And that maybe the resurrection mechanic was put in the game for that very reason...

[@ArawnNox]

That, and those spells require at least, what a 3rd level slot that needs to be used within a minute? If you're out of spell slots, then the longer you wait the higher slot you need and the more expensive the materials. And DnD aint the monty haul it used to be.

[@blackhammer5035]

Of course, this just leads to D&D 5E, where death is basically a status effect and one of the easier ones to remove.

[@danacoleman4007]

I've always removed resurrection from my games and it works beautifully!

[@EvilSandwich]

@@danacoleman4007 Oh it can absolutely work, but I've seen more than a few DMs failing to rebalance the adventures to take the omission into account.

[@robweb2928]

Glad to see you continue your series buy could you share more war stories, those are my personal favorite

[@kasane1337]

I feel like I honestly should just play modules and stop creating my own rulebook...problem is...creating a rulebook by myself is fun for me :/

[@bonbondurjdr6553]

The problem in itself is not creating new rules or your own homebrew. It's that the rules change every week.

[@meatguyf1375]

#1 Reminds me of all the times a buddy always started a Star Wars campaign with Tatooine Manhunt or a Brave New World campaign with the Ripper adventure.

[@99zxk]

Starships wouldn't be obsolete because they'd be needed for exploration, but yes, JJ doesn’t understand Star Trek (or Star Wars...)

[@O-D-X]

The Re-Run GM ... I love running the same adventure over ... but for different groups just to see how different groups approach the same problem. I have never had two groups run an adventure the same way and that is the fun of it!

[@richmcgee434]

That form of re-running is fine as long as you're enjoying yourself, and yeah, different groups take wildly different approaches. I've seen a kind of reverse where a given player will try running through the same module with different GMs (usually in organized play events or at cons) with a similar or carbon-copy PC. Don't understand the appeal to that, there's no way to avoid foreknowledge cheats and why you'd want to "try for a better score" as it were is baffling.

[@theforevergamemaster]

Ya mistake 2 is the one I really had to learn to change because I used to approach important NPC on NPC dialogue like a cutscene in a video game . Luckily I learned to discard this behaviour quickly because half the time when I would start this sort of "cutscene" it would turn even the most excited and engaged players to bored unenthusiastic players. I didn't know why until I ran into the same situation as a player

[@jesternario]

You know, the last time someone pulled a cutscene on me (fortunately a monologue), I went impatient murderhobo and attempted to hijack the adventure.

[@larsdahl5528]

Yes, one of the reasons to why I say that people should both do it as GM and as PC, as it give them the chance to see things from the other perspective.

[@jesternario]

@@larsdahl5528 It didn't help that he railroaded me into listening to the Monologue for longer as "punishment" for not wanting to listen to his 20-minute monologue.

[@wbbartlett]

JJ Abrams not thinking a story through? Surely not!

[@richmcgee434]

JJ Abrams not giving a crap about existing canon? Stuff and nonsense! :)

[@rachelfoster2872]

One problem I've experienced as a player is when the DM has too many NPCs in one scene. And I can guarantee you that watching a DM play 20 different nobles all talking to each other is not only boring but also really painful. Especially considering that they were all very important NPCs.

[@philipbabb]

lol. You said "watch their GM play with themselves."

[@TheRealGovika]

3 and 4 are ones I struggle with.. Especially inconsistency! I get so worked up and anxious every single time running a game that I forget rules or plot points or characters or events I have written down in my notebook. A lot of DMing is just giving up the control instead of seizing the control

[@SSkorkowsky]

" A lot of DMing is just giving up the control instead of seizing the control."

[@TheRealGovika]

​@@SSkorkowsky Yes, what a great headache! Exactly. That's why I think some authors or writers wouldn't be good GMs. Exceptions of course, but you gotta give up that control and idealized version of the campaign. In short, if a I wanted it to go "this way" then I need to write a book (at least that's what I keep telling myself whenever I get frustrated with it).

[@gossamera4665]

One thing I find hard is the whole Npc talking to another Npc, sometimes it doesn't make sense for players to interject, like if two nobles are talking, it would be considered rude to the point of being almost being a crime to presume upon them if your character isn't nobility. But like yeah, I don't want to be talking to myself anymore than I want to make them suffer through it, but exposition, information, like even if I described them talking amongst themselves in a dismissive off screen kind of way, what if someone chooses to listen in. I mean you can't have the nobs constantly asking for input from commoners, no matter how competent they may have proven themselves or how friendly and casual the nob may wish to seem. I'd probably handle it with some opening phrases setting the tone and then summarizing the rest, maybe interjecting with something important.

[@BlueNEXUSGaming]

I figured the mustache was one of the random props the GM used to reflavor the same Mike Player into someone different lol house rules be crazy sometimes

[@ciealevelpsychology4642]

This video is tops Seth. Kidnapping is a good solution for a player unable to attend a campaign session. Another solution is a paralysis poison slipped into a drink. Sometimes players opt for a Weekend at Bernie's approach.