Setting up your cycling cleats - CYCLING SHOE GUIDE - Part 3

[@jswisher893]

I’ve heard James explain all these things 1000 times but I still watch again every time 👏

[@Anonymous-f6o]

Bruv it’s the accent 😂 i’m NA i can’t have too much of it

I would also love for you to give more XC/MTB advice

[@Neil_down_south]

Came in on saturday for a shoe consultation... Cleat moved back, insoles and new lakes purchased. Great service, I'll be back soon for a bike fit.

[@johnwestwell2241]

I moved my cleats back as far as they will go, and also set them up 'square' (ie with no rotation in relation to the threaded inserts in the soles). It's the most effective cleat adjustment I have ever made in the 30+ years I've been using Look pedals. Previously, I was constantly tweaking the angle of the cleats. In the six months since I followed James' advice (from a previous video), I haven't touched the cleats at all.

[@pjcaps100]

I’ve done the same thing. No issues so far

[@htowncl]

It depends on the starting point of the cleat holes on the shoe, some can be further forward or further back. Jamming them back on some shoes can put them at the beginning of your arch area.

[@chad.765]

How about a full video covering fitting considerations and issues for overweight/large riders? You touched on it briefly here but I'm sure there's more.

[@joelathrop5193]

This is great James - all three videos are super informative. Something I hope you cover in the 4th installation: contributors to foot numbness that may not be the shoe. For example. my wife suffers from numb feet, and this has followed her over at least three different shoes and across both Look and SPD pedal systems. It's to the point where she rides with her BOAs almost fully open in hopes to alleviate the numbness (to mild success at the cost of the obvious). Cleats are slammed as far back as possible and saddle height has been repeatedly lowered over the years. So... if it happens with different shoes, different brands, and both road and mountain style shoes and pedals, maybe it's not the shoes?

[@cfk666]

I also had this sort of problem (also during longer hiking trips in hiking shoes and during cycling of course), I needed inner soles with more arch support via a podiatrist/podologist, took numbness in my foot away (and lower back pain after longer walks or running)

[@davidv6803]

I was setting up a friends new shoes (for a new pedal system) and thought "James wants me to push these all the way back"! I assume the same thing should happen with MTB cleats?

[@ScottBaker1]

Does moving them back as far as they'll go also apply to SPD cleats?

[@mellowdrifter]

about to ask the same. My road shoe cleats are 100% back, but the same 'distance' on my gravel shoes with spds put them midway down

[@BrianKlausen]

Really depends on the shoe too I think. I have a pair of enduro-oriented Shimano shoes, and some Fizik XC shoes. Their channels are not equally far back in relation to the foot. I did cut the channels longer in the Fiziks though ;)

[@ojtibi9906]

Given the cranks' designed Q-factor and my biomechanical need to have a wider stance, I also set my cleats wide apart to prevent shoe rub against the crank arms (and sometimes, the chainstays). I've recently started using the Ultegra +4mm pedals as well.

[@parazitulplictisit]

I've been following you for some time now and really love your tips and how you approach things. I'm looking to purchase a pair of G8 insoles, but I don't have access to a bike fitter or someone would perscribe insoles other than for people with flat feet. Would you consider making a video related to insoles/arch support in this series. Maybe covering a basic where to start/how they should feel in the interface with the foot/what to look for/does shoe sole material(nylon/carbon) matter/should you have different setups for road/offroad shoes etc. Thanks, have a good one!

[@solosailor744]

Great video again. Thank you. You have mentioned about different geometries of bike frame making a difference in terms of fit and that most people ride bikes with frames that are too big. Please could you do a vid on bike geometry and what are the issues with the wrong geometry or too big a frame or both. TIA.

[@derekreaper3869]

Sir, I watched one of your previous videos about moving the cleat back. It had me thinking about how I used my feet when I needed to use more power in my legs for other activities. I came to, I think, a good parallel. I thought of where I placed my foot onto a spade to dig into a firm soil. What you had said made sense to me. I have since moved my cleat as far back as I could. After initially fumbling to find the new clip-in position, it all became good quickly.

[@Cal906lil]

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience with us. I was having issues, post bike fit, and changed my cleat position and got G8’s and am now finally able to ride in comfort.

[@madplanet3351]

All shoes S Works. The three road mounts rotated 180 degrees. Blue cleats right back but for 5mm. 4mm longer dura ace pedal axles plus 1mm washer. Cleats left to right central in shoe. No worries.

[@HarishChouhan]

I also wanted to add that your videos have been helpful. Earlier the way you use to joke in Cade's videos that if you don't walk with arms wide apart, don't ride like that :). Anyways, your videos have made me focus on my riding style and pay attention to how I feel and then tweak something instead of just riding and suffering like I did earlier. So thanks for that mate.

[@kivriel2660]

I use Shimano XTR MTB pedals on all of my bikes. The cleat as much backward as possible. Perfekt!

[@theguzziman]

Another useful video. I’d be interested in James’s opinion on fitting cleats asymmetrically if one foot is significantly longer than the other. I’ve seen mixed opinion on this from other bike fitters

[@jimp65]

I rode today with my new G8 performance 2620 footbeds, wow, it was an amazing deference compared to shimano’s flat insole! Strongly suggest looking into upgrading your footbeds to G8’s. I also bought the Metdomes as part of the G8 bundle.

[@drewcama2488]

All interesting as I think my final fi problems, though I don't think I have many, is shoe and cleat position. Have you spoken about those with high arches yet? And when is an arch high?

[@DirkSachse]

Please make a video on how to tackle numb toes, thanks!

[@HarishChouhan]

I have a friend in Hanoi, Vietnam who runs a bike shop, is your follower and stocks Lake shoes :). Anyways, due to my ankle issues, I have continued using Shimano SPD with SH56 cleats. I tried Ultegra Pedals and even at the easiest tension level, I was not able to unclip my right foot (even on a indoor trainer). Tried look which was much easiest but got back to using Shimano SPD's. I don't have access to a good bike fitter who has a proper jig. I tried ID match and well don't have anything kind to say about it. My right leg is 9mm shorter than the left. I use custom insoles, and shims from "Form Bikefitting". It helped and after taking some videos/pic realized the in the shorter leg, the main difference comes from the right Femur so I tried keeping the cleat of right shoe closer to the toe compared to the left. This has helped a lot and removed discomfort even in longer rides.

[@rakulex]

love the videos James! keep the excellent work (also good to have a different wall in this video lol)

[@Alby26Isaac]

Would be good if you could possibly include Time xpro pedals and cleats in the future. These have been a game changer for me, but due to the sizeof the cleat, absolute pain to initially set correctly. Having said that, foot specific cleats and much larger pedal area really assisted me.

[@PilotReidB]

I have a very "duck" stance of my feet when standing, I'm also 185cm/93kg (converted for all non freedom measurement users) I have my cleats turned in a way to have my heels inward on my bike. Added a lot of comfort!

[@alexanderh2715]

I got my first set of clipless pedals on my new roadbike last week. It's tough figuring out what still needs adjustment because my gravelbike as a different geometry. I figured out my initial saddleheight was too much and I changed the cleats and moved them back and rotate them slightly. I'm afraid my shoes aren't perfect though so I will have to look out for some wider ones in the future.

[@geraldschenk]

What are practical methods to get a wider stance? Would you make another video on that?

[@frankcastora8348]

I can attest that as James states… better cleat position (back) with adjusted seat height (lower) increases comfort and power.

[@j1y0ni]

Just another example James of a reason to increase Q factor. If your feet Over-pronation aka flat feet. It can deform the inner upper of the shoe making it catch the crank arm. I am an example of this.

[@masi992]

Would love to see a vid on wedging cleats. Why, when and how much!

[@ShadowzKiller]

Great video. In my opinion, it is also equally risky to move the cleats all way the back especially if the shoe has like 20mm+ of adjustment. I get arch pain and can't climb out of the saddle if the cleat is too far back, even with proper orthotics. Conversely, I need to keep the cleat quite far forward on the shoe, because I have very short toes, and high, long arches.

[@leerichy6489]

He did say " as a very rough general rule ". It's only a starting point to give people ideas to try then adjust. It's a 6 minute overview, the individual bikefit takes 2 to 3 hours.

[@ShadowzKiller]

@@leerichy6489 That is true, but better advice would be say move the cleat behind the ball of the foot, instead of just slamming it all the way back. It is like saying, keep your saddle low and slam it low to avoid over-extension of the knee.

[@leerichy6489]

@@ShadowzKiller I see, so what you are saying is......I should be watching your KZbin channel and visiting your bike fit business. What's the name of your channel again and where is your business located?

[@goodeggnoggs]

What about toe-in and heel-in??

[@sbccbc7471]

This is adjusted accordingly to your gait. If you have a toe-out gait, then the cleats should be adjusted to a toe-out bias, but not enough for the shoes to rub the crankset.

[@joelsoto1849]

Confused a bit on the fore/aft of the cleat. Ive read that too far forward can be as bad as too far back. Also i guess varies by shoe, as some shoes like shimano have the holes further back to begin with. Battled with bike fit FOREVER. Finally comfortable, but with heat, get bad hot foot. Unavoidable? Have played with wide shoes, pedals and stance. Bit lost.

[@lawrenceparr]

Just an idea, but how do road cleats and locations compare to MTB style cleats and locations? Thanks and keep up the good work.

[@Omnis2]

My bike fit and shoes are pretty comfortable, but I noticed on my last 2 centuries that the lateral edges of my foot and toes were getting a bit tingly. Not to the point of being numb, but it wasn't the most comfortable thing, like all my pressure was going to the outside of the foot. Would going to long axles and moving the cleats laterally 4mm to maintain a similar position be of benefit here? SPD-SLs of course. edit: For context I wear a Lake 50 wide and weigh about twice the average rider.

[@markhemmings5501]

Moved my cleats back but now suffer with toe overlap. Not a problem at speed but when manoeuvring at low speed i have come close to hitting something through both not being able to turn the bars or not being able to peddle. Time for a new bike? 😇

[@andrewpescodd5919]

Great explanations James , I’ve used l look , shimano over the years but always seam to have had pain in my feet or knees and everytime after these I’ve gone back to Time pedals and it seams to eradicate this ! I wonder what your view is on time and especially now as they’ve not launched different lengths of pedal axle on there xpro range ?

[@8080zorro]

If you have a leg length difference of e.g. 1cm, doesn't it make more sense to move the cleat of the short leg more forward, bringing the shoe more to the back and closer to the body?

[@Vildskud99]

Hey James !! Love your videos!❤ Does all the Way back also apply to Lake MX238 gravel shoes ?

[@cesarcabrera1542]

Hi James. How would this advice/guidance translate when it comes to SPD (the mountain bike kind) pedals/cleats? - Is pushing the cleat all the way back also a good start with SPD? - How big a change in saddle height this would represent? - Are there options for dealing with "float" when it comes to SPD? Thanks!

[@jpk38000]

I did try this, but my feet touch the front tyre when turning ! I could only reach 2/3rd of the way back with 44euro size shoes.

[@Gk9311]

What if you have a shorter leg ? Apart from a shim, how does one adjust the cleat position then ?

[@biketrybe7071]

Hello, James. I very much appreciate your advice regarding foot, shoe, and saddle issues. However, what can be done about an arm-length issue? I always feel twisted on the bike to accommodate, and it obviously causes saddle issues. Thank you.

[@shrinkingshrimp]

Could someone explain what some people mean by bigger leverage when the cleat is more forward? I would think the only leverage you will get is against your ankles. You push the pedal down(and in a circle) from your legs, to have leverage on the pedal you would need to have an additional fixed point you could push the lever arm against.

[@Zoben44]

People usually think that less foot length out of the crank range means more leverage

[@vromaka]

What about cleat orientation (rotation), where should it point?

[@sbccbc7471]

This depends on your gait's toe. If it's toe-out, then you adjust it to the same orientation, but make sure the shoes don't rub the crankset at all times.

[@g.fortin3228]

Nice vid as usual james ! ...would like to know your thoughts on SPD mountain cleats on gravel bike..which also gets road use. seems easy to get into and out of, but any serious drawbacks ? i like them with specialized mtb shoes

[@user-nuclear815]

Hello, what do you think is the correct way to fit cleats for people whose heels fall below horizontal and whose ankle angle is more acute than 90 degrees? 안녕하세요 발꿈치가 수평보다 아래로 떨어지는, 발목 각도가 90도보다 예각인 사람들의 클릿 피팅은 어떻게 하는게 맞다고 생각하시나요?

[@Adritzel90]

Explain please the best way to choose the bicycle size, it seems that if we follow the brands' tables we always end up with a size much larger than necessary.

[@sbccbc7471]

Relying on a manufacturer's sizing chart is never the most reliable way. Riders of the same height have different proportions when it comes to torso and leg length. Me for example, I stand at 1.65 m tall with a 77.8 cm inseam. Specialized's chart says I can ride a Size 52, but because I know I'm short, I know there's no way I suit anything that's classed larger than a Size Small, so Size 49 is my size on Specialized bikes. A good starting point for most people is to straddle over a bike you think suits your size, try to sit on it (with your correct saddle height), then switch sizes accordingly until you find your size.

[@nerielzz]

Hi James! Love your content! I've followed your advice from previous videos published on Cade's channel and moved cleats almost all the way back a couple months ago. It felt great but it resulted in low back pain during prolonged efforts above FTP, especially during races. Seat height was adjusted accordingly, I've tested saddle height within 4cm range and didn't get any improvements. Currently I'm experimenting with moving cleats a bit forward, before last race (XCM) I've moved them about 7mm forward (they ended about 10mm behind ball of the foot) - that resulted in significant improvement, I've felt fatigue in a low back, but not pain. Any comments on that? What have I done wrong? Thanks

[@christopherraymond506]

What about the knee over pedal spindle idea? It vaguely makes sense but I would guess you’re not a fan.

[@jgogl9791]

I'm curious about this 'arch support' being pushed all the time. People use their feet. Quite a lot. And the body has adapted to assimilate whatever imperfections might be present. If you suddenly change that, it'd lead to massive problems wouldn't it (even if the new position is, strictly, anatomically correct)? I once had arch supports put in ski boots, different sport and stresses etc etc, but it was agony; feet aching, knee pain etc. Looks like it'd only be a good idea for the most dire anatomical disabilities.

[@matthewshaw3747]

I guess the difference with cycling is that it’s not a natural engagement of the foot. With skiing you are still effectively standing whereas with cycling you are sitting and pushing with your foot so it’s not taking load in anywhere near the same way.

[@MrJhockley]

I've experimented with mid foot cleats but it feels like i'm peddling with my heels and my power really fell off almost like i lost the power phase of the stroke. I seem to prefer around 10-15mm behind the ball of the foot.

[@Eirikkinserdal]

I get lactic acid( or it feels like it) in and around the VMO even at low intensities. Where do i begin to adress this?

[@lojeda]

I've been trying to move my cleats back combined with lowering the same amount my saddle, feet feel great but I always end with hip impingement

[@Blitzer00979]

I'm having the same problem as you. I figured it might be because 175 mm cranks are too long for me.

[@lojeda]

@@Blitzer00979 yeah 170mm for me and been suspecting also about crank size

[@1234doodle]

Hi James, what do you think about the Sqlab 512 pedals? Seems like they are the pedals with the widest stance options you can get.

[@Bikefitjames]

Stay tuned for part 4 of this series! I'll tell you

[@cjprimata]

I like the last tip on external pain on foot, move the cleat out?

[@julianallen515]

Lots of useful information rattled through here at a rapid fire pace. Play the video at .75 speed and it's easier to understand and absorb.

[@djloverszn]

I got my cleats far forward from the time i have been riding with no issues. My height is 181cm, does this mean i must move it far back as possible?

[@lmbraga]

Does this also apply to SPD cleats?

[@yisraels4555]

Yes! I have set up my SPDs this way for years

[@Gk9311]

​@yisraels4555 all the way back you mean ?

[@yisraels4555]

@@Gk9311 as far back as possible

[@Gk9311]

@@yisraels4555 did you decrease your seat height as well ? and by how much ?

[@yisraels4555]

@@Gk9311 I have made all sorts of adjustments over the years so not really sure when... But Jame's advice is good and matches the other best fitters so I would lower the saddle. In fact since having the saddle to high is so common... I would try lowering it.. hint.. mark the current location (magic marker) if you don't like it you can easily move it back. Just put a line where the seat tube lines up with the frame. Start with a 5 mm drop like James recommended and experiment

[@jerseybarrier64]

I’m looking to move my foot closer to the crank as I am curious if this will help with my heels wanting to move inward. Thinking having the foot closer to crank will put it more in line with the pedal and less tendency for it to move inwards to compensate. This topic came up in a fitting but using Time pedals this hasn’t been possible to do with cleat position but they now offer shorter axles.

[@mf0u3021]

But do your heels want to come in, because your toes want to go out?! Wider stance allows heels to come in without hitting cranks/chainstay. Narrower doesn’t always mean narrower.

[@jerseybarrier64]

Actually I feel my heel is moving in cause my foots placement is too far from crank. Doesn’t feel natural. Sure moving it further outward away would provide clearance for full float of the foot but the heel would spend its entire time inboard which doesn’t seem right. I’m not a wide person 😂

[@mf0u3021]

@@jerseybarrier64 definitely all personal preference, and balancing cleat position and qfactor seems like a dark art at times.

[@DHDan]

What about getting numb toes after around 30 minutes of hard effort?

[@GMICHAELG62]

No more knee pain once my cleats were moved back and adjusted! Also, I like James rendition on my cat's "Stink face" in the thumbnail. 😂

[@daroskygeronimo2609]

One question does my sprint power reduce if i put my cleats all the way back?

[@Bikefitjames]

No

[@daroskygeronimo2609]

@@Bikefitjames thanks for replying you have the best bike fit videos, so much information. 🫡🫡

[@CatManDoSocial]

Good stuff as usual. Thanks.

[@andrewmorgan9405]

Brilliant

[@pizzathehut2001]

Is there a,way to move mtb cleats left or right if needed

[@sbccbc7471]

They are adjustable sideways all this while.

[@chrisohh5612]

Hey, a shoe episode where James doesn't make me feel bad for loving my Specialized shoes! Thanks, James!

[@jeremyemilio9378]

This is why are use flats. None of these problems😅

[@keessonnema]

What do I do if I have quite a big leg-length difference? Disclaimer: I have never seen a doctor for this.

[@Zoben44]

Same issue, for now I just adjust the cleat position of the longer leg further back than the the other one to equalize the overall position and then check the power phase of each side (on HT)

[@chrisridesbicycles]

If you feel like you want to rotate your cleats so that your heels point inwards, is there also a bigger problem around or can this be normal?

[@AceMBP]

if the cleat is too far back though then the high part of the hamstring gets too much burn.

[@Bikefitjames]

If your saddle is too high, yes

[@matthewn3109]

Ever had someone have one of their legs come closer to the top tube? This happens on my right side, having ischial tuberosity pain on this side. I increased the stance on the right, definitely had less skin irritation on the right. Should I increase stance on the left too?

[@Bikefitjames]

Saddles too high

[@matthewn3109]

Thank you. What do you do if that’s been dropped and I have the ischial tuberosity pain go the left as well? Then at times go back to the right?

[@zebeddy]

@0:40 - as someone who studies anatomy as part of my job, am I the only one who struggles to watch James do that to an anatomically correct replica of the foot? 😩

[@DaveNicoll-p3l]

Listening to James whilst he doesn't directly say it "some float" may suggest Blue cleats on Shimano..

[@oOoACFREEMANoOo]

Whos doing camera and edit?

[@platypushatstand]

Someone will an appealing feminine-sounding voice, who we would naturally like to see in front of the camera…

[@ucdcrush]

I had no idea moving the cleats back would change the "effective" saddle height by so much, 15mm. I would have thought more like 3-4mm. I should probably lower my saddle.

[@davidpage6831]

Rearward cleat shift does increase the extension or effective saddle height, but at a ratio less drastic than 1:1 suggested. These videos are made for a casual audience so some details like this are exaggerated for the sake of demonstrating the principle.

[@10ktube]

Why would someone NOT want to have their cleats back, but rather maybe more under their forefoot? The leverage thing I don't buy, the human body is mostly soft and connective tissue, not solid links, so am curious why use the forefoot at all, excluding maybe a physiological thing or spur, etc.

[@PedalToProgress]

What is the stack height difference between an SPD mountain cleat and an SPD-SL road cleat? I recently changed from mountain to road pedals (after my bike fit) and I think my leg reach is longer now…do I need to lower the saddle or just move the cleat forward to shorten the foot reach?

[@redauwg911]

2-3 mm But take shoe soul thickness into consideration

[@JulianAndresKlode]

Very complex situation. My feet point fairly toe outwards, so what happens is my cleats are rotated almost to the max otherwise I clip out by accident. Now I hit the crank with the rear of the foot when pedaling. Sometimes. I switched to Favero this year. Even on the Speedplay though, float wasn't "enough". Basically my feet seemingly was pointing out (rear in) so much that the spring wore down the base plate and could partially jump out of the housing (normally a plastic tab keeps the spring inside it's housing on both sides, but one got eroded) after less than 1000 km. Not much that can be done there lol. During the bike fit I was told wider stance might work but would need even more flexibility work lol.

[@Blitzer00979]

I would have thought wider stance would require less flexibility. Or at least it would open up the hips.

[@JulianAndresKlode]

@@Blitzer00979 My internal rotation is miserable, I guess that limits it. Not everything is inflexible. I can rotate my feet so far outward that the toes on both side point backwards.

[@Blitzer00979]

@@JulianAndresKlode Lack of internal rotation can definitely be a big problem. In addition to widening the stance, you could also get shorter cranks to compensate for that. And wow, it's crazy you can point your that far outward 😲

[@luisgarcia22]

I hoped you'd talk about cleat rotation. Why not talk about cleat rotation????!!!!!

[@Blitzer00979]

Yeah, I'm also disappointed he didn't talk about that :(

[@jeromebergeron9286]

The leverage arguments with the cleat forward is so stupid! In this case you aren't using a lever your foot IS the lever. You are effectively increasing the leverage of the pedal resisting the force you apply which is the opposite of what they are trying to achieve.

[@AJXOXO-vz1pn]

How many TDF winners have used a cleat location that is behind the ball of the foot? Answer: none.

[@Galleyslave_ZH]

🤦🏻‍♂️

[@rogerlandeloos8927]

@@Galleyslave_ZH Pogacar

[@Omnis2]

How many TDF professionals are on your bunch ride? Answer: none.

[@Lemond75]

There are now three certainties in life - death, taxes, and James throwing something on the floor for apparent comedy effect.🥱