Seven Deadly TCG Sins is BACK!! (Errata Text Followup #1)

#SevenDeadlyTCGSins #SDSTCG
Yes, we're back! I dunno if folks got it the first time with the Duel Masters video, but we will be continuing the Seven Deadly Sins series! I will also try to feature just basic discussions of certain games and their attributes.
Follow me on twitter!: kohdok

[@silentjester4817]

Now will we ever get the 7 Heavenly Virtues of Card Game Design

[@c.d.dailey8013]

1. Evergreen Cards 2. Life Counters 3. Moderately Mixing Attributes 4. Standard Card Size 5. Original Intellectual Property 6. No More than A Deck and Some Dice 7. Reminder Text

[@RarecuisineGaming]

Kohdok please make this!!

[@DeconvertedMan]

@@c.d.dailey8013 not sure what 1 is but the rest sound good.

[@weberman173]

well, Evergreen in general just means something thats always relevant or "a thing" in magic there exists evergreen Keywords, which are basicly keywords who Wotc just can use whenever they want as they are considerd "basic game mechanisc" in contrast to Keywords that they only use every few Sets if not just once or twice(Flying vs Phasing is an example, flying is evergreen phasing isnt) an evergreen card would then be a card that would always be "usable" In Pokemon Bill would be an evergreen card iirc(iirc They print bill basicly every Set rotation because its such an integral part of the game at this point)

[@goncaloferreira6429]

@@c.d.dailey8013 wellcome to mtg

[@brendaneichler5244]

If you think The Stack is complicated, you’d faint if you saw what Magic had before.

[@sirhades92]

Is what Yugioh has right now, I still have problems remembering when a new effect enters the new chain, chain blocking, missing the timing. All the stuff that just goes poof once the stack gets implemented.

[@RetroMaticGamer]

It was called the LIFO rule, "Last In, First Out." Between that and Instants & Interrupts being separate card types with different timing rules... OH GOD, it was HELL.

[@elijahdavila3684]

@@sirhades92 I still have no idea how the hell chain blocking works

[@foji-video]

@@elijahdavila3684 Chain blocking is an *UNOFFICIAL* term. But basically, assume you tribute sangan to summon Mobius the Frost monarch. Both the cards have effects that trigger in that instance (sangan to search the deck, mobius to destroy 2 backrows). Here comes solemn strike, which says "when a monster effect is activated, pay 1500 LP, negate the activation and destroy that card". You can choose whether sangan will be chain link 1 or mobius will be chain link 1. A card that says "when something happens" can only respond to the *top* of the chain, therefore by deciding which one of those 2 effects will be CL1 and which one CL2, you protect the CL1. CL2 can be negated by any card having "when something activated, negate", CL1 cannot.

[@shawnjavery]

@@sirhades92 some effects have to respond directly to an effect, and if multiple spell speed one effects would trigger from the same action/at the same window the player can decide in which order they happen, with the turn player getting to declare their effects first.

[@brendaneichler5244]

Faceless Butcher is why these days, effects like this are one ability that lasts as long as the ‘kidnapper’ is in play. If the card isn’t there when the ability resolves, nothing happens.

[@skyfire001]

Skyclave Apparition has it split into like that. And now I need Faceless Butcher for my Alesha Who Smiles and Death Commander deck!

[@karenwest6350]

This isn't always the case, sometimes (esp in MTG) they like to mess with when this happens. Though with permanent exile stuff, they tend to keep it so there's always a downside to doing so, like with Baffling End/Skyclave Apparition, but we've had Spell Queller and Ashiok's Erasure.

[@skyfire001]

@@karenwest6350 Faceless Butcher/Fiend Hunter/Skyclave Apparition with a sac outlet and repeatable revival tricks are evil and fun. Like I said above I use that in my Alesha deck as a form of crowd control. Mad a guy scoop once when I pulled it out on him. The funny part? He was playing a mill deck that PUT THE FIEND HUNTER IN MY GRAVE FOR ME! And I had Alesha out and ready to bring it back with my Goblin Bombardment!

[@grantflippin7808]

I feel like the stack should clear before new effects can be added, kind of like chains in yugioh

[@karenwest6350]

@@grantflippin7808 the stack not working that way and being able to go a mile high is one of the reasons the game is as deep and fun as it is. What benefit would mtg get for this change?

[@foji-video]

In YGO something like faceless butcher would simply trigger in a new chain (a new stack) and once a stack starts resolving, nothing gets added on that. Trigger effect will happen in a new stack at resolution of the previous

[@justanoman6497]

See, part of the confusion also comes from what happens when a new effect triggers during the resolution of a stack. It actually differs between games. For some games, it starts a new stack that would only resolve after the entirety of the first stack. But for others, it gets added to the first stack(and is resolved as soon as it is added, being the top of the stack). And then there is the question of whether you can use new effects(or optional effects) during resolution or when a thing is added to the stack due to the resolution of the stack(and it being the type of adding to stack as opposed to new stack). While the rules are consistent within a game, it isn't always consistent between different games, which creates more confusion if a player plays multiple games and/or is trying to learn a new one.

[@stillbuyvhs]

Cool. The 7 Sins was a good series, so I’m looking forward to this.

[@banmonsterg.8245]

Interestingly, in Yu-Gi-Oh, the Faceless Butcher effect would form a new chain and end up putting the card back on the field.

[@shawnjavery]

Depends on how exactly its worded. If it was an activated effect it might not but if it's a continuous effect it would.

[@partyrock4144]

@@shawnjavery actually since it uses “when” it’s a mandatory effect to return the monster

[@BramLastname]

@@partyrock4144 in this case you're right, However if the faceless butcher was removed for cost (the part before the ; ) It would need to be an if-effect, Since the when-effect's activation conditions would no longer be met. At least that's how the Yu-Gi-Oh rules currently stand. That's why all the new cards use if, Because when is bound to miss timing.

[@partyrock4144]

@@BramLastname actually a card can only miss timing if it says “when..you can” if an effect is just “when” it always goes of and if it’s an “if” effect you will always have the option to activate it.

[@BramLastname]

@@partyrock4144 oh that's odd, But in that case it's now clarified for people who thought the same thing. So yay us.

[@HeavyMetalMouse]

On the matter of Faceless Butcher - it is important to note that there is nothing *requiring* the person playing Rescind to do so 'in response' to the trigger. They can simply let the trigger resolve (removing the targeted creature), and *then* Rescind the Butcher, causing it to return the removed creature as intended. In many of the 'funky stack' scenarios that are cited, it is not so much that the Stack, or even the card itself, is at fault, but that players are either misinformed or misguided into playing their responses in a way that screws with the rules in unpleasant ways. Faceless Butcher works *just fine*. The problem is that there *is* a moment in time where, *if* a player plays their response in that window, it works counterintuitively - but nothing *requires* a player to play their response in that window. They can just not do that, and the card will work as intended. It would be a very good idea, when designing such a system, to find some way to avoid those kinds of 'windows of bad timing'. Many games end up with them due to poor planning or questionable choices of design. I'm thinking about YGO cards that 'miss their timing' due to the if/when/then rules; or indeed things like Faceless Butcher that can 'glitch out' and leave a creature trapped when that isn't intended. In the case of Faceless Butcher, they actually found a way to keep their Stack working as intended and solving the problems it was designed to solve, while still making cards like Butcher work without 'glitches'. Newer cards that have similar effects have a different sort of wording - "Exile target creature *until* this leaves battlefield.". (Exile being the same thing as 'remove from game' in this case). Thus, there is only one trigger, not two, with the effect of that trigger having a *duration*. If that duration expires before the effect properly begins, then the effect never begins, because its duration is expired. If the Butcher had this wording, then there would be no way to 'strand' a creature outside the game with it, and many newer cards that want a similar effect without that option use the newer working. By the same token, however, WotC *hates* rules-text errata nowadays. A card should function how it is printed; unless it doesn't function at all as printed, then changing existing cards' wordings is not something they want to do. This is why you'd more likely see a New Card with a better wording, than to see them change the wording on the old card. This was not always WotC's policy, of course. This does mean that older cards can often end up with 'weird' interactions, but that is considered a small price to pay for people not having to look up whether or not every card has new text that isn't on the card they have. If a card is so badly overpowered or game-breaking in its original text that something must be done, they'd rather just ban the card and make a new card at some point that (hopefully) isn't broken. This policy has its own pros and cons, naturally.

[@goncaloferreira6429]

nice post.

[@Talguy21]

Another factor about the strength of card draw is how quickly the players' hands can be emptied. In Yugioh, the only constraining factors on your turn are your one normal summon and board space, so it's not unusual for both the cards you drew to be active immediately. In a game like Magic, though, it might be Land cards you can't play right now, or a card that's too expensive for the stage of the game you're in.

[@sephikong8323]

Yeah, there's a reason why nowadays almost all monsters have a hard once per turn on their effect. The amount of "infinite loops" you can pull of and gain immediate advantage from in this game is insane (just yesterday I pulled off the Vylon loop against a friend and ....... yeah, let's just say that it quickly devolved into 5 minutes of me searching for the cards summoned by the effect of my continuous spell and searching the equip cards from the floating effect of my equip cards and use all of this to make a fullboard of negate and beaters first turn. Probably not very fun to sit through, but that's what the game allows)

[@partyrock4144]

Luckily yugioh is getting better at adding hard once per turns and restrictions to both drawing and generic recycling in the form of both the pot series and the recent errata to firewall dragon

[@DarthG33k]

Your video about the 7 deadly tcg sins inspired me to make my own card game. When it's ready, I'd love to show it to you.

[@NotBamOrBing]

Remember to list the win condition at the start of the rulebook!

[@me4pie]

Oh my, hold my gravy and butter my biscuits. Its time for high quality TCG analysis.

[@rewrose2838]

that's too much excitement for just a card game

[@me4pie]

@@rewrose2838 hype is the fuel and I am the machine.

[@mavenYGO]

I look forward to more insights into the TCG ladnscape. I've played yugioh for nearing 20 years but that never translated to interest until the medium as a whole until your series got recommended to me at around the 3rd sin. I'm really looking forward to playing the digimon cardgame, mostly thanks to you. So I'm glad to hear you're doing an errata series because you've helped me get more invested with the cardgame climate/trade. Look forward in the future~

[@thefaz3744]

You mentioned not doing a dedicated video on YuGiOh, but I feel like a video about modern Yugioh would be very interesting - currently Yugioh is, by far, the most unique card game out there gameplay wise, so I'd love to hear your thoughts on it

[@danielyarsky6128]

Yeah, i want to see him talking about the benefits of a resource system

[@masterflamewing234]

Yeah so unique. Watch your opponent play solitaire

[@pablomadrid6962]

@@masterflamewing234 when you've definitely, totally, absolutely played the game for a substantial amount of time.

[@funakiexpressV2]

@@masterflamewing234 tell us you don't play handtraps without telling us you don't play handtraps...

[@elijahdavila3684]

@@funakiexpressV2 All that means is that your opponent is going to go off on a solitaire turn unless you happen to open with a card that will stop them so that you can then go off on your solitaire turn and hope your opponent doesn't have a card in their hand that can do the same.

[@kingpin6173]

Yet another video that makes me grateful that I'm a Yu-Gi-Oh player

[@qedsoku849]

In Yugioh, faceless butcher would work as intended since triggered effects wait until the current chain (the Yugioh equivalent to stack) ends.

[@AtomTomZeitalter]

In newer versions of the same effect it also works as intended - Take banishing Light for example: "When Banishing Light enters the battlefield, exile target nonland permanent an opponent controls until Banishing Light leaves the battlefield." Since both triggers are in the same effect, you can't create a combo like the one with faceless Butcher.

[@julienleynaud6898]

Well there is a simple explanation for the stack : imagine you are in a pistol duel , your opponent shoots first but you shoot a little later and you both end up shot. The fact that you touched your opponent does not make the bullet he shot disappear ! A little complement: mtg actually changed the way the new cards similar to the card you mentionned before, you can find this kind of effect but it will read : "When x enters the battlefield, exile target creature untils x leaves the battlefield" the fact that it's the same sentence makes it being one ability and not two.

[@brendaneichler5244]

I prefer the analogy of shooting a guy after he throws a grenade. He’s dead, but the grenade’s still live.

[@julienleynaud6898]

@@brendaneichler5244 That's what I wanted to say but I forgot this analogy. It feels indeed more clear :)

[@pyredynasty]

So a counter spell is like deflecting their bullet with your bullet?

[@emmakristoffersen8550]

The Faceless Butcher effect has been solved actually. While they haven't errata'ed old cards that have the "bug", new cards (like Banisher Priest/Banishing Light) use a "delayed trigger" in the same ability.

[@Grimsikk]

I literally just re-watched the whole series over the last 2 days because I'm working on my own TCG idea, so this is excellent timing! 💙 I could listen to you talk about TCG design for hours tbh. I love learning about game design any chance I get.

[@zacsnowbank7632]

The stack, for all its flaws, is the best solution to the problem it solves. MTG wants things like counterspell, and a large variety of ways to preemptively respond to effects before they take place. It allows for fun, splashy back and forths where my creature is about to die from damage but I make it bigger but in response you try to kill it again but in response to **that** I play a counterspell and negate it. If you want this sort of thing, the stack is the best way, the chain Yu-gi-oh has is a poor substitute. The reason why it's the best way to do "instant speed" effects is because it's based on real mathematics concepts. A stack in computers is the opposite of a queue. One is FIFO (first in, first out) and the other is FILO (first in, last out). The stack is a pile of dirty dishes that you wash from the top down, from the newest plate to the oldest. That simplicity means that it's far easier to explain than chain-blocking or whatever YGO has going on. The problems show up when you aren't sure what a plate is. Faceless Butcher (and Fiend Hunter and Angel of Serenity and Ashiok's Erasure and Detention Sphere and...) seem like one plate: remove a card from play until the kidnapper disappears. But since it's actually two plates, they can be put in the stack in the wrong order and unintuitive things happen. This has since been solved by making it one plate on cards like Banisher Priest (although sometimes they use the old wording for some reason). The stack makes designing cards a lot harder because you need to "stack proof" things. Ultimately, the stack isn't a bad design choice (and that's kind of obvious since MTG is so popular). It's just a tool that requires more effort to use as a designer and makes your game more complicated for players to understand. Most of the time, that's a trade-off not worth making, even if MTG is my favorite card game by far.

[@tipulsar85]

Back in the first five years of Magic, we did not have just Instants and Sorceries, we also had Interrupts and Mana Sources. Both of which were at Instant speed, but were very clunky in terms of execution. In terms of Mana Sources, they were a spell that just granted you more mana. Interrupts had a whole damned decision tree in terms of how to interact with them, at one point it was given the dubious honor of being shown in maze form in Duelist Magazine. When Sixth Edition was put into design, WotC knew that a little pruning was in order. This was when the stack was introduced and interrupts and mana sources were folded into instants for any standard set printed after. That isn't to say that they didn't try Sorceries with Flash before this, as All three Portal sets (no GLADoS references here) only had creatures, Lands and sorceries.

[@waleedkhalid7486]

The stack can be pretty complicated, but the key to remember is ‘does the effect negate the effect of the target?’ If yes then resolve with that in mind. If no, then resolve with that in mind. It’s something that isn’t always stated in the rule books, so it becomes really annoying to deal with since it’s an exercise in logic.

[@lendrigangames]

I don't like using "good" and "bad" as descriptors, either, mainly because one man's trash is another's treasure. "Grounded," "disconnected," "conceivable," and "convoluted" all paint clearer pictures, anyway.

[@fennecfoxfanatic]

I remember learning about Errata Text in my Pokemon tcg manuals. Hehehe I am so ready for this series. For the Pokemon, Yugioh, and Magic topics, I would still love to hear your opinions on the games. It doesn't have to be the "history of x" but like some of your favorite little mechanics or moments in those series. Like little appreciation nuggets or factoids . Or like mini rants about mismanagement? idk. Just love hearing you talk about these things!

[@goncaloferreira6429]

this.

[@thunderybuggy7399]

i feel that the digimon case tries to tell us something

[@pokeperson1000]

I can attest that the binder is not the reason I personally got chills when listening to the duel monsters errata text opening. It is simply the concepts that the code states in such a solemn tone that gives it such a feeling of... wisdom? Chivalry? Experience? Something like that; it just gives off a kind of powerful vibe.

[@kennydarmawan13]

I hope we'll see an episode of that featuring Redakai and another about LCGs.

[@MateusDrake]

That hat and googles are so cool! Those details on the side look great.

[@benwebb4424]

The weird thing to me about this video is the comments section. So many people saying that that isn't how Faceless Butcher works and it blows my mind, because from where I'm at that is very obviously how it works. MTG's stack being LIFO always has been the case, and you very obviously can respond to an ETB trigger. To think otherwise would require a bunch of bizarre rules exceptions. Why would anyone think the rules warp around this one card just to make it work when all the printed text on the card make sense within the frame of the game's mechanics? For it to not work that way it'd need to be worded as a single trigger.

[@Kohdok]

I mean...it kinda proves my point.

[@NotBamOrBing]

In Yugioh, once the chain starts resolving you can't activate any cards or effects until it has finished resolving, at which point any relevant triggered effects start their own chain. So a Yugioh player who only understands their game's effect resolution mechanic obviously wouldn't see it that way

[@goncaloferreira6429]

old, bad example for talking about the stack. also, if talking about tcg design, it would be a good example of how mtg is "the best" because it has changed over the years and corrected some of the past mistakes.

[@goncaloferreira6429]

@@Kohdok what point is that exactely?

[@Kohdok]

@@goncaloferreira6429 That the stack is, in fact, frequently very confusing.

[@stevenglowacki8576]

The recent digital TCG based on League of Legends (which I can't remember the name of now!) has even more complicated timing rules, especially priority rules. I was very very confused when I started playing because it wasn't clear why I could sometimes respond to things and not other similar things. The good thing about them is that the strategy of the game flows from what things you are allowed to do at various times, so it's not like the weird rules aren't in service of a greater good, but if it's not the first card game you've played featuring timing windows and priority, you are going to make a lot of mistakes and get bewildered at some of the results. Being a digital TCG that enforces the rules is a two-edged sword: you don't have to argue with your friends about what happens, but at the same time you don't understand why something just happened instead of what you were expecting.

[@endtimestcg5146]

Thank you so much for this! I will check out the DUEL MAsters thing and your VIDS! I am here to learn!

[@zacharylindahl]

Interactions between cards like faceless butcher and rescind are the reason that I love magic so much

[@EduardoWeidmanBarijan]

Nice to see a follow up series. I like to learn about card games

[@TheIronicRaven]

Yes! So happy this one is back!!! I love your 7 deadly sins videos!

[@axo278]

About not talking in depth about the big 3, even with all their dedicated youtube channel, coming from watching magic content you express mechanics and gameplay on a meta level scale sooo much better and clearer than anything I've watched, so if those games help inform more videos like they have in your past videos im always interested in hearing more from you on them!

[@krvys7226]

I will admit the stack can get very complicated at times in games like magic. However, I can't help but chuckle at the ease of Butcher Combo compared to some of the BULL I've seen in some commander games. On that note: know it likely wouldn't be for some time, but would you ever do a video on variants for different card games. (Alternate rules sets like commander, Planechase, or judges tower in MTG being my example. I'm not familiar enough with other games to give examples for those. Could argue any games limited format counts to this also though)

[@Paikerchu13]

Issues with faceless butcher are already solved by having the ETB effect include the leaving effect. For example, Banishing Light specifies "Exile target non-land permanent until Banishing Light leaves the battlefield" and in this case the Stack actually forced the rules text writers to make a card that is much easier to understand and with less text overall than what butcher was going for.

[@vivecanada1]

Way more complex stack interactions include what happens if you end the turn when a trigger is on the stack, such as a flicker effect's delayed trigger. Or how replacement effects work if multiple would apply.

[@vincentmccue7481]

One thing I have noticed is your use of the terms "speed" when talking about instants and sorceries. One of the things that Mark Rosewater likes to stress is that there is no such thing as a speed to a card for Magic. Instant just means you can play it whenever you have priority, even during another players turn. Sorceries are only during your own main phases, if the stack is empty. I think it was Yu-Gi-Oh that introduced speeds with where things can be on the chain or something, but Magic just has "the stack" and it builds up and down. Speed implies that you could play something "faster" than another spell, which you are not since you are still going in a specified order (Whatever is on the top of the stack is the first to resolve, with priority being passed in between each resolution). Even with early interrupts and mana sources, those again were not speeds, but just had rules baggage as to when they could be played and if they used the stack. Colloquialisms such as "in response" tend to be construed as one being faster than the other caster, but it is more akin to reading your opponent and being prepared with said response. Again, just because I have an Instant card in my hand, if I don't have priority, it doesn't matter that I could cast it because it is not "faster" than anything you could do while you maintain priority. That is a great interaction with Faceless Butcher, but they have leaned away from those abilities being two different triggers and are just one now. If you try to do that with cards like Banishing Light, the card being targeted just kind of sits there since the Banishing Light left before the triggered ability finished resolving.

[@goncaloferreira6429]

mtg evolved over time and learns from past mistakes. One of the reasons it is still around. Yeah, i also believe the speed thing comes from yugioh, but since the game is what it is we will never know why they made the decisions they made. perhaps they were copying mtg´s system of sorcery/instant/interrupts but 20 years later it all just adds to the unnacessary complexity of the game.

[@Veiwer77]

When someone did the faceless butcher trick on me back in the day it blew my mind! I think it's a case that helps explain the stack better once you wrap your head around it. The stack is not as bad as you're making it out to be and other games lacking instant speed spells and abilities I think are a hindrance. Playing arena really helps visualize the stack better and once you see how easy it is you can use instants more to your advantage. Also, one thing I think that holds back a lot of card games is their flexibility in formats. Not just standard and vintage or what have you, but different ways to play. In Magic you can also draft, play sealed and the biggest one right now is Commander (100 card singleton). But like Pokemon I tried to get back into but there's nothing similar to any of those so I lose interest quick. And Star Wars Destiny sold a special set of cards just to have a base deck to be able to draft and that game failed because of multitude of reasons.

[@artstsym]

Considering that for more and more fresh or intermittent players the format of choice is Commander? The stack is absolutely that complicated. I love picking apart hilarious knots, and I have the comprehensive rules bookmarked because being able to squeeze every tiny advantage out of a card is my jam, but the vast majority of players just want to know what will happen when they do their thing, and it can absolutely be a black box from the outside.

[@VieneLea]

I don't want to be rude, but when I saw "Errata" I thought you've made a very serious mistake in the series. So bad it warranted a video. Love seeing more contect, though! :)

[@abyssal113]

I thought he was going to argue that sometimes erratas might be a TCG Sin.

[@aidwin85]

i like this series. glad it's back.

[@trevfirth6803]

I’d love to see a series where you cover different games like Duel Masters/Kaijudo with multiple versions of the same game. Example VS System and the 2PCG version.

[@LuvzToLol21]

6:07 I think the idea (at least in the designers' minds) for draw cards in Pokemon TCG is the game has a soft version of life decking. If you ever run out of cards in your deck, you immediately lose the game. So for example, for a card like Lady from the Forbidden Light set who lets you take 4 energy cards at once from your deck, it's "balanced" by bringing you that much closer to running out of cards.

[@SylviaMoonbeam1127]

I was wondering if you could do a video on the Chaotic TCG, since it had an awesome design and mechanics. I unfortunately was never able to obtain any Chaotic cards, but I found the recent Transformers TCG to have mechanics reminiscent of Chaotic. Honestly, Transformers or Chaotic would each be an interesting video 🤔

[@Inouver]

part of the problem with the stack happens because it's an abstract mechanic in a physical game that doesn't track itself. You have to "imagine" that the card created an effect that goes to the stack independent of the source

[@goncaloferreira6429]

or you can just cerate idont know, a stack of the cards putting effects on the stack?

[@liberty2087]

To be fair about Faceless Butcher, that is a 7-mana and 2-card combo just to exile a creature, in colors that have very efficient counterspells and targeted creature destruction, so even though it’s confusing I think it’s cool that the rules are work-aroundy like that

[@brendaneichler5244]

You could also just sacrifice it. Plenty of ways to get it off the battlefield before its first ability resolves

[@Kohdok]

@@brendaneichler5244 Yeah. It's why good ol' Ashnod's Altar is a Commander staple.

[@brendaneichler5244]

@@Kohdok I mean, any sac outlet will do; the Altar is such a staple because it puts you up mana when you sac stuff. Especially when you can use the mana you get from it to make more tokens to sacrifice.

[@Njzeo]

“If you got chills from watching that ...” *Stares at kaijudo tattoo on ribs *

[@PunishedPrince]

Only got to play duel masters a few times in 5th grade. Grew up in a Yugioh household so didn’t get to go too far outside of my family’s comfort zone. Would kill for a modern video game of it so I could play. Same with the new digimon tcg

[@SeedSnatcher]

The next level version of the Faceless Butcher interaction is Parallax Wave + Opalescence

[@Ninja_Geek]

If you want another example of the stack getting messy, may I introduce Apex Devastator who simply has Cascade, Cascade, Cascade, Cascade as its ability. Wizards is well aware of the mess this causes to the point where this is the last line of one of its rulings "In other words, each cascade ability cares only about the spell that caused it to trigger, the stack can get messy, and we wish you luck."

[@ecksofresh]

what a great name. im super excited for this

[@rigasatria3221]

in indonesian language, kohdok mean frog. and frog is a symbol of prosperity. god bless you ma friend.

[@acrowdofpeople]

An idea I saw once that I'm increasingly buying into: "Any game mechanic can be a good one, so long as it's in service to the right game." So thank you for your approach to game mechanics not as, "Mechanic bad," but "Mechanic makes this particular game worse/better."

[@vladspellbinder]

Faceless Butcher, and Oblivion Ring, are the reason they changed the wording on newer cards to say "*until* [CARDNAME] leaves" instead of using the "*When* [CARD NAME] leaves"..

[@vincentmccue7481]

I miss that binder, was really neat to pull out when they first came out. Before that one it was the bland, solid color 1" or 1.5" binders back then.

[@philgoad5587]

Speaking of erratas, what about a segment where an errata isn't just for clarification or typos, but actually nerfs the card? What is the advantage over leaving such a card banned, and releasing a new card with the effect you want to achieve?

[@pyredynasty]

Like the companion mechanic in mtg.

[@ericcartmanofborg8669]

Kohdok "Chess is too complicated! It needs to be simplified to checkers rules!"

[@pigmanpiggypiggyman3732]

I love faceles butcher as an example, it cements the necessity use of keywords as shorthand in games. Hearthstone might not be super deep but that simplicity means the really weird effects barely ever cause arguments that way. Their versions were either one-and-done on play unblockables, or something tied to a deathrattle - the specific and common way of removing a card. If you had that card played on you, it was your fault if you silenced it.

[@Sleepy0173]

I'm mostly a Yugioh player but if I had to guess, Faceless Butcher would enter the field trigger, and if responded to it'd go: -counter/negate? then things stop there. -something makes it leave the field? then you will probably have the option to respond to the opponent, but assuming you don't, Faceless Butcher will leave the field and then its effect will fizzle due to requiring to stay on the field to do things. The second part of the effect would not have the chance to become confusing like that with that ruling, but even if we got into a weird hypothetical scenario that caused that (IDK how), the second effect would wait for that stack to fully resolve and THEN immediately kick in as a new stack. Something in the previous stack would have officially triggered that effect, but without the first effect in the previous stack yet resolving, you still don't meet the conditions for the returning effect to even apply (I doubt it tries to trigger if/whenever it exists on the field with no creatures exiled this way and is forced out, so in a stacking scenario that'd be the same). As a Yugioh player, there's also the chance the second effect is a continuous effect so it wouldn't interact with stacks at all. It'd just happen without respecting whatever stack we got going on. Yugioh's got something called PSCT that explains if an effect is continuous, quick, or what parts of it are costs and whatnot. I think it's one o the things that works well about the game even if I can imagine outsiders to the game thinking it might be a bit complicated, maybe you also see it like that IDK, but it'd be interesting to hear your take in a video about it. Samples of Yugioh cards that do stuff in a continuous way that disrespects stack, look for "Maestroke" that protects itself using up ammo, and even though something else pays for that protection, it isn't made to stack because in the game, you can't just go elsewhere to do something else until the stack fully resolves and is done with, and every bit of the stack can only be directly addressed by the pancake directly on top of it in the stack (if that makes sense... sometimes stuff indirectly affect the outcome of something at the bottom but for the sake of this we shall not dwell too deep). If your protection effect had to stack, it'd have to wait around for the stack and wait the turn to protect, and many players would exploit that ability to "Miss the timing" and make the whole interaction more complicated to understand than "fuck the stack".

[@aarlavaan]

This is an interesting look at how Faceless butcher might work in ygo. thank you. :) yeah, because butcher has two different abilities that trigger under different conditions this interaction in mtg is... odd..., but predictable. any given game can have a stack that gets very large, and can be very confusing, but the way the stack itself works is rather simple. last on = first off, and any given effect can be interacted with, even if others have been resolved. as for Faceless Butcher: neither of its abilities require it to stay in play to resolve. one triggers when it enters, and the other triggers when it leaves. entering does not mean staying, in mtg, there are effects that don't use the stack, like... Lord of Atlantis: it just pumps your creatures as long as it is in play. no stack. mtg refers to these as "static" abilities. no activations, triggers, or stack interaction. it is state based. the state of the game says Lord of Atlantis is in play, so creatures are bigger, vs the state of the game says Lord of Atlantis is not in play, so they are no longer bigger. its funky on paper, but makes sense in practice. in this case, you cast butcher, putting it on the stack. it resolves and enters play,. this meets the conditions for the first ability to trigger, which goes on the stack. at this point, players have a chance to interact, and you cast... Unsummon, which in turn goes on the stack ON TOP of the butcher's fist ability, and thus resolves before it. when it resolves, the butcher is no longer in play, meeting the conditions to trigger the second ability. the second ability goes on the stack, still ON TOP of the first ability. second ability resolves with no target because butcher has not removed anything from the game, and it fizzles, the last thing on the stack is the first ability, which still has not resolved and can still be responded to if desired. but if let resolve, then will remove a creature from the game. when resolving a chain in ygo, is it an all or nothing interaction? lets say there is a chain of ten effects. I let the tenth effect resolve, can I respond to the ninth effect again, or if I let that resolve, can I respond to the eighth effect? etc... all the way down to the first? or do I have to let them all resolve, with no chance for interaction? because I think that is where the stack and the chain differ. I know that in a stack of ten effects in mtg, I can let any number of them resolve and still respond to those that are on the stack at that point.

[@Sleepy0173]

@@aarlavaan In Yugioh's case, the interaction is limited to chaining in response to the lattest chain link added. The chain will not resolve until both players agree to not add further chain links to it, at which point it resolves in reverse (from latest effect all the way to the first effect that started the chain). The answer is no, the chain resolution has to go all the way in order for anything else to happen. In a chain of 10 effects you can't wait for effects 10, 9, 8, and 7 to resolve and go "I wanna respond to #6 now". Although Continuous effects such as the protection I mentioned from the card "Maestroke the Symphony Djinn" that simply protects itself... those can happen. There's also cards that can be in multiple chain links of the same chain at a time due to their effect being able to be used multiple times so long as a cost is paid ("Divine Arcenal AA Zeus - Sky Thunder" is a good example of this, a monster that enters the field as part of a stack of cards that are attached to it, you detach 2 and it blows up the rest of the field, and I've seen appear with 6+ attachments so when people try to negate it, it responds in yet another chain link and re-tries, and then if something else response it has ammo for a third try, and so on). Buuuut this one is a sample that doesn't tamper with the chain's resolution... it simply pays for multiple places in the stack before the whole thing resolves as normal.

[@aarlavaan]

@@Sleepy0173 ok, so the concept is the same, but the execution is slightly different. The stack allows for responding at every "link", even if things have started resolving, whereas the chain does not. Magic also has cards that can do things multiple times, and redone to multiple effects on the stack. I am curious about something else... I heard that you can never multiple chains at a time, so you have multiple sequences of effects that happen at once. It's that true? In magic no two effects happen at the same time, thus all things go on a single stack and, again, are resolved in reverse order, so having multiple chains of things that happen at once is a little confusing. Is that something that can happen, or did I hear incorrectly?

[@pyredynasty]

I still think you could come up a pretty good discussion of balancing.

[@raonair]

Pretty sure Oblivion Ring is, nowadays, a more famous example than Faceless Butcher

[@ShinkuDragon]

Honestly i find the stack fairly intuitive, at least compared to LAYERS. you need a phd for the most extreme layer problems. Stuff like the butcher problem is avoided now by making it a single effect, instead of 2 separate ones.

[@AztecCroc]

Faceless Butcher seems more like an example of brain-dead rulings than any problem inherent to the concept of the stack.

[@goncaloferreira6429]

this.

[@Xarr23]

have you thought about talking (or already have) about the Megaman NT Warrior tcg? I've seen all the 7 deadly sins videos and I don't remember it being mentioned, but NT Warrior tcg committed SEVERAL of the sins, like lifedecking, unmixable attributes, 3 sets before the age of 2, few gimmicky features on the third set, it was licensed on the american version of the TV show and you kinda needed the playing mat at first cuz of the card areas.

[@kryzethx]

That thing about the Butcher card reminds me of "missing the timing" in Yugioh. Although I can only think of one example atm, which is more a problem of the effect text and minor differences, specifically If vs When. They should mean the same thing, but effect text saying "If X happens; do Y", The Y effect will always occur after a chain involving X happening. Effect text saying "When X happens; do Y", The Y effect will only occur if the last part of the chain was X. So if X happens in the middle of a chain, the Y effect would miss the timing and not occur.

[@pablomadrid6962]

That is literally the only way to miss timing, it's not "a case" lol "when: you can" effect: can miss Everything else: can't

[@weberman173]

i mean, if and when dont mean the same even in language.. if refeers to a possible condition, when refeers to the time of a condition. so if just means that "if x happend, y will happen" while when means "if x happend, y can happen right now, and nto later"

[@kryzethx]

@@weberman173 The way these words are used in English might actually be the opposite of what they do in the game. Usually, when people say "If x, then y", it's taken as a possibility of x. "When x, then y" is used more when x is inevitable, or bound to happen. You see this all the time in media, characters will say things like "If you beat me, I'll give you something" and the other character corrects them with "You mean, WHEN I beat you", with the "when" implying their certainty in victory.

[@weberman173]

@@kryzethx the thing is, the defintion is still, if refeers to a possible condition, when to a time of a possible condition, aka for WHEN time is important, for IF time isnt important yes this implies that X is bound to happen(as it refeers to a time of it happening in the future) but notherless, time is a factor in using when

[@solidmasterdante]

It feels like your explanation of the stack makes it sound more complicated than it actually is. If someone understands the "first in, last out" concept, I don't think it's really that hard. Faceless Butcher has two different triggers, one that happens when it enters play, the other happens when it leaves. It's not THAT hard to follow. The stack definitely CAN get messy, but I don't think this is a great example of that. You just follow first in, last out, and it's all fairly straightforward.

[@GunbladeKnight]

Fiend Hunter is a bit more well known than Faceless Butcher. Another infamous one is Yavimaya Elder.

[@aarlavaan]

I am curious... what is off about yavimaya elder?

[@GunbladeKnight]

@@aarlavaan Elder has a trigger: when this dies, you may search for two basics and put them into your hand, then shuffle. It also has the activated ability: 2, sac this: draw a card. If you activate it, the search trigger goes on top of the draw trigger, thus resolving before you draw.

[@aarlavaan]

@@GunbladeKnight yeah... seems pretty straightforward to me. just like a cycling card that has a triggered ability attached to the cycling. like... Decree of Justice. the first ability goes on the stack, triggering the second ability, which goes on the stack on top of the first, and they resolve by last on = first off. I guess on paper it sounds a lot more complicated that in practice, once you understand last on = first off.

[@GunbladeKnight]

@@aarlavaan It is pretty straightforward, but you have to think about the mindset when you activate the sacrifice ability. "Oh, I'll sac it and draw a card. Wait, it died so I can search for two basics." It's not as bad now (especially since people have stopped running it), but early on in commander people kept resolving it backwards.

[@aarlavaan]

@@GunbladeKnight lol... at least damage doesn't use the stack anymore. so you can't block a x/2 with it, sacrifice it to draw, search for two lands, AND still kill the creature it blocked.

[@gabrielbielawski7069]

Hey, I really love your series, keep up the good work! I was wondering, you ofyen mention "other channels" that have covered certain topics. Id be really interested in checking those out as well but you dont mention their names or link them in the description. Do you think you would ever do that?

[@PlasticSiding]

Really enjoying this series, have you ever thought about discussing complexity or upkeep of card games? You've discussed the immaculate card game, buy I'm wondering if there is enough material to discuss card games that fail under the weight of having to keep up with a bunch of stats and numbers. Just a thought.

[@Kohdok]

Sin #6.

[@ceresgc]

I think Yu-Gi-Oh would be worth talking about in regards to hope different it is from the games you usually talk about. Its resource mechanic (or lack thereof) goes completely against convention. You can do one normal summon per turn. That's it, that's the only resource you have, the rest of your cards are only limited by the text on them. Which, after 20 years of one upping each other, has gone quite crazy. I don't know if they is any other card game where you go through half of your deck in a single turn, of where your discard pile (and for some decks, the discard of your discard pile, which means there also is a discard pile for the discard pile of the discard pile, banishing face down) is considered a second hand.

[@goncaloferreira6429]

hi. how many games do you know? funny how it became normal to talk about normal summoning as a resource.

[@ceresgc]

@@goncaloferreira6429 not that many. Legends of Runeterra mostly, with a bit of Yu-Gi-Oh and the Dragoball Super one. I also tried out the digimon tcg, magic (arena), hearthstone, Pokémon, hero realms (does that one count?), and even the Undertale one, but just enough to know the rules.

[@goncaloferreira6429]

@@ceresgc i take it then you are a young person? not a bad background as long as your are learning about the games you play

[@ceresgc]

@@goncaloferreira6429 Yeah, I'm 23. I hadn't had the chance (or income) to get into many games sadly

[@goncaloferreira6429]

@@ceresgc for people your age this new age of digital tcgs is a blessing. so many great games out there right now that are free to play and have the advantage of benefiting from 25 years of tcg history. runeterra and mythgard are 2 great exmples. i dont think yoyumentioned that last one? try it out. it is a nice game with a good software and they are giving i believe half their cards for free right now

[@rafaelbordoni516]

I think it's impossible to talk about card balance with authority, literally no one knows how to do it. Every spoiler season the players misjudge most cards, the game developers constantly misjudge cards even through play test, it's just impossible, lmao

[@cephery8482]

Not to mention the whole mess of what makes a card bad. Take mystic mine in yugioh, its considered an unfair or degenerate card even though mystic mine decks do not see much play. So how do you address that?

[@botnot640]

People really be calling mystic mine unfair as they do a 1 hour combo that gives them a broad with 7 Omni negates, a full hand, and 5 set back row

[@cephery8482]

@@botnot640 i mean no. Most meta decks make about 3 negates and dinos really dont mind going second if they have the chance. The meta is about sacrificing an end board to play through disruption. Pend magician is a deck that can make a high negate count but cant through handtraps so it doest see success.

[@goncaloferreira6429]

comments below are about yugioh, were you thinking aboutthat game specifically when you made the OG post?

[@rafaelbordoni516]

@@goncaloferreira6429 No, I don't play yugioh but I wasn't thinking about any specific card game I've played since it happened in all of them, and I've heard stories about some I don't play. I just safely assumed it happens to all games. To be a little honest, I was kinda thinking about MTG actually, in which it is happening to an insane degree never seen before during the past 3 or so years.

[@KingUnKaged]

Keeping a spare set of keys in your wallet seems dangerous man. If you have ID in there it becomes pretty easy for someone to find your house and break in.

[@Kohdok]

They'd have to steal my wallet first. That, and it's easy to get into any house with some patience and a crowbar. The number of times I've locked myself out of my car and had those keys to rescue me are more than worth the infinitesimally small odds of your scenario playing out.

[@jonothanthrace1530]

Faceless Butcher really should've been called Candle...some name starting with J.

[@joshuaturner4602]

faceless butcher, oblivion ring is the same but an enchantment instead of the creature and white instead of black. There was a thing a while ago with a creature called squee the immortal and its interaction with ixilans binding. Ixilan's binding says "Exile a creature under ixilans binding until it leaves the battle field. While exiled this way your opponent cannot play creatures with the same name as the creature exiled under ixilans binding." Squee the immortal is a very weak creature whose text reads "You may cast squee the immortal from the graveyard or from exile". Before the rules were changed to fix this MtG only checked if a card was legal to cast after it was on the stack, this meant that squee the immortal could wriggle out from under an ixilans binding, because at the moment you cast him he moved from exile to the stack, then the game would check to see if Squee's name matched the name of the card under ixilans binding (which of course because squee wasn't there anymore it didnt) and thus resolved (unless your opponent did something in response.) I think to fix this MtG now checks if casting a card would change the cards legality, prevents you from casting a spell that would be illegal to cast now even if it would be permitted by the time the spell is on the stack

[@radbradmusicartist]

Id like to see you review metazoo! I dont know anything about it except hearing about it. Id just like to see what you think about it

[@FolloweroftheBlind]

You call faceless butcher confusing I call it a unusable exile effect in black which is quite rare for black to have.

[@邪神皇]

Hope Kohdok can talk about the game of “Battle spirits” as it does not been mention on the 7 deadly sins

[@MrZer093]

While I get not doing a history of the most popular TCGs and what all they did right, I’d be down for a series about the history of now defunct TCGs and analyze what they did right and eventually why they were discontinued. Though you can probably avoid licensed cash grab games unless they’re lumped together just to sort of say “I acknowledge these existed and it’s at least a little interesting that they existed once upon a time”.

[@goncaloferreira6429]

if you see these as history lessons, how can you make them without going in depth on the big 3?

[@MrZer093]

I’m more imagining the idea of it being focused solely on now defunct ones rather than any that still have new cards coming out. If any of the big 3 do get mentioned, it would be more in the line of a compare and contrast with whatever discontinued TCG is being talked about. Stuff like, “this mechanic is now seen in Magic but it was first used here” or “this TCG is an example of why Yugioh should not do this kind of mechanic”.

[@goncaloferreira6429]

@@MrZer093 i like the idea of compare and contrast because tcg´s communities tend to be very closed and close minded, not having a broader sense of the genre and what exists or existed. still ,since a study games, card games in this case, i feel that most games stem from the big, the first 3 and not starting there is a mistake. also, as history lessons, the fact that they have the longer history means there is more to explore there. it is a facinating study how those games, specially mtg, changed over the years and even used ideas of games that were meant to kill it.

[@aidanquiett668]

Magic can have it bad with stack interactions sometimes, but spell speed, the chain and missing timing take the cake for me in terms of timing and a stack like effect. Yugioh managed to take the stack from magic, and then add random confusing rules on top cause they didnt know how to write cards early in the game, and just ran with it

[@GhostrareStardust]

Damn he knows what pot of freedom does

[@drakeshadow7728]

Idea for the Bakugan TCG: Change the life decking mechanic into a system similar to Duel Masters, while also changing effects related to the original life decking. 5 Shields (I would call them “Baku-Guards” to fit the naming scheme) that get taken from the top 5 cards of the deck before starting hands are drawn and are then broken and added to the hand of the player taking damage, breaking 3 shields with a Team Attack. An example of changing the mechanics intrinsically tied to life decking would be to make it to where Bakugan with DoubleStrike break two shields instead of one if they win a Brawl, or that a Bakugan with FrostStrike (being changed to make it actually a relevant game mechanic) puts the shield they break in the discard pile instead of the hand. Going further (and implementing the “shield trigger” system), Flip cards can be played from the hand in this system, but can be played immediately for no Energy cost if they are picked up from being a shield when the player takes damage. Damage stopping flip cards would still be playable, but obviously much worse then they currently are with the life decking mechanic. The damage rating of a Bakugan would still be there, with a notable added rule that a Bakugan with a damage rating of zero is incapable of breaking a shield and thus incapable of progressing the game state if it even does win a brawl. Just an idea that I think would solve the Bakugan TCG’s biggest problem, aka TCG design sin #2. Would love to hear people’s thoughts on the idea, and to see if we could make this actually happen.

[@danmaproductions8208]

Interesting design changes to the Bakugan game Tho I personally think that Bakugan tcg doesn't need a life decking mechanic in the first place. Perhaps what they could do is instead make a separate card type called Gate Cards that function as shields like the tower cards in Argent Saga. Everytime a player wins a bakugan battle they may reveal an opponent's gate card and attempt to break it by comparing the damage of the Bakugan to the health of the Gate card (if the Bakugan deals damage equal to or higher than the Gate card's health, that Gate is destroyed) and when the Gate card is destroyed the Gate's effect triggers giving the owner of that Gate a bonus. First player to break 6 of the opponent's gate card wins. This will not only keep the players' decks safe from being sent to the discard pile due to life decking but also gives players a guaranteed way for them to bounce back from a losing situation and prevent the enemy from snowballling

[@ImMacke3000]

Regarding "stacking" effects, yugioh chains and different spell speeds can get pretty complicated at times and for example create infinite loops, cards missing their timing to activate their effect or even situations which official yugioh judges (yes those exists and they do for a reason) debate on what should happen in that specific instant

[@weberman173]

i mean... judges existing seems to be a relativly normal thing given that in any game people would try to rule lawyer. well infinte loops are pretty easy and the judge system is clear on it. "does the loop advance the gamestate" and "is it a perfect infinte loop or a manual one) I.e is either player getting closer to victory from the loop and can the player just "decide" to not continue it if the former is untrue(ie its just shuffeling games on the board around or changing cards without affecting lifepoints or the number of cards in either deck) but the later is true, then the player just has to stop the loop as otherwise he woudl be "playing for time"/slow play, which is not allowed if the former is untrue and the later is untrue(ie it dosnt advance the gamestate and the player has no choice but to continue the loop) then the boardstate gets reset before the problem card was played(ie the card that triggerd the loop)(example, imagine a card that can revive itself imidiatly after getting destroyed by a card effect(not once per turn), and a card that destroys any special summoned monster, indefinitly, card A(the monster that revives) was special summoned last turn and card B(the destroying one) got activates this turn, destroying card A, but triggering its effect, reviving and gettig destroyed indefintily, the judge would revert the gamestate to before card B was activated. if former is true later dosnt matter(ie a card that burns for 100 LP gets somehow looped indefinitly) asit advances gamestates

[@encapturer]

You know, the fact that this is a thing that the judges debate and there isn't an official ruling from Konami that all players can reference concerning conflict resolutions triggers me so bad.

[@trickyplays240]

Lov these videos!!! Hope you get my stuff soon!!!

[@galamarv]

when you talk about faceless butcher it really confusing me but when you give an example of MST. okay, i understand now. lol

[@EveyDeevey]

IMO stack stuff is really interesting but I get how it might be complex. Also why faceless butcher instead of OBLIVION RING

[@stoatmuldoonfanclub7885]

A bit late now but a game that does the stack well is legends of rune Terra an online tcg based of league of legends

[@meandgene4497]

Do u ever plan on doing a video on the old bakugan Vs new bakugan

[@angelcm156]

For timing just ask any yugioh player about the difference between if and when in card effects

[@NotBamOrBing]

God I wish Heart of the Underdog used if

[@angelcm156]

@@NotBamOrBing oh, I haven't played HS but never felt attracted to the digital ones

[@NotBamOrBing]

@@angelcm156 What? I'm talking about the continuous spell card Heart of the Underdog

[@angelcm156]

@@NotBamOrBing oh I see, my bad for letting my brain autocomplete the reading instead of actually reading hehe sorry, but yes kind of a mess with Heart of the underdog

[@fernandotorrero779]

But then you get dumb hijinks like the mandatory when effects. So if dont miss timing but when does, except when the when effect is mandatory in which case it doesn't miss timing!

[@RDMANGLEYT]

In the next video follow up, could you talk about availability of the game. How to find it, ways to play it, as well as price, and ability to get cards from any product (as opposed to needing a starter set to start the game like keyforge did)

[@Kohdok]

That would be the upcoming "Building Better Boosters" subject.

[@RDMANGLEYT]

@@Kohdok alright cool

[@a.d.kuhlmann7299]

I clicked on this thinking I'd learn about actual errata text...

[@zrethor]

Any plans to talk about Chaotic?

[@threex1]

Faceless butcher pretty self explanitory with rescind imo but ive been playing magic for a while but with pictures in person its super easily explained

[@SuperSayian3000]

You think Duel Masters will ever come back or some variation of it?

[@ReadingRulesDallas]

Cool idea, Silent Jester

[@andimjustalex]

Still crossing my fingers on a Monster Club video >.

[@condemnedd684]

Here’s my kind of question; what about games like dice masters? Doesn’t that kinda break the rule of “cards and maybe dice and counters”? What about games that have you use your phone while playing?

[@ThatManOverThere]

This looks fun. Will you do an episode on how to "design" a wild west era card game?

[@Kohdok]

If your rulebook is over 50 pages long, you're on the right track!

[@jbigs65]

Radekai getting its big video?

[@goncaloferreira6429]

faceless butcher + rescind? quite an old example, isnt?

[@c.d.dailey8013]

Ooh. I would like to have more videos like the deadly sins. The series did inspire me to improve my own card game. Before I had a lot of different kinds of counters. Later on I trimmed it down to one kind. Then I had cards being used as resources instead of other kinds of counters. I think errata text could be helpful for Magic the Gathering. As the game evolves it develops new jargon. So a long form explaination can go to a word with reminder text and then just the word. In old cards sometimes the card will explain the long way to take cards from a deck and put them in the graveyard. In modern terms this is called milling. So the card can be changed to say mill, and the mechanics are unchanged. The newest Magic cards say mill where appropriate. Even the deadly sins videos talked about milling. It is in the video about life decking. There are two Magic cards in this video. They are really old. I can tell by the border. Faceless Butcher has very convoluted text. That can use errata text. It should say "exile". Rescind is a bit shorter but it could still be simplified. Maybe cards like that should say bounce. I never seen a card that says bounce. They are always explained the long way. Bounce is still part of the jargon. I wonder if that it is ever going to be made official. I like to use Brazen Borrower for bounce. I have notice something. If I try to bounce a creature right after it comes down, the enter the battle effect still happens. It seems rather screwy with the stack. For creatures with a powerful enter the battle ability, it is probably better to play it safe and use a counterspell if possible. The thing about card draw is wierd. The right thing to do in this situation is to give a cost to such a spell card and put it on the power curve. It seems obvious to me. Magic the Gathering always has some resource cost for card draw spells. In some situations it can involve paying life or sacrificing creatures. This would be card draw done right. It is odd. Pokemon has resource cards for the creatures. However all of the spells don't use up resource cards. For Yu-Gi-Oh I am just baffled. I know very little about this game. I know that high level creatures can only be summoned if one uses lower level creatures. So that slows things down so the pace isn't rediculous. I don't know how Yu-Gi-Oh handles powerful spell and trap cards. Do they require weaker spells and traps to be used some how? Do they require high level monsters to be in play? I don't know. I am not sure how Yu-Gi-Oh can work without some kind of resource system. What is there to stop a lucky player from putting down thier strongest cards and winning on turn one or two? I know there is a limit for high level creatures. However I wonder if that is enough.

[@c.d.dailey8013]

When I really think of it, there is something in Magic the Gathering. Every single card is either a resource card or something else that requires resources. Even all the noncreature spells require resources. There is no free lunch.