手别 SHOU BIE and Judo controversy

Shou Bie is my favorite technique in Chinese wrestling. At the beginning of the video I show some applications of Shou Bie against kicks and punches. So I give a personal answer to a recent controversy spread on the Net: the Shuai Jiao, the Chinese wrestling, would have been developed only after 1920 in response to the development of Judo, it is a historical nonsense. Following is the didactic video of the Beijing school of Master Li Baoru, late 80s. The Shou Bie technique is performed with different steps, with different holds and finally its counter techniques. From the archives of the Tiandihe School.
Shou Bie è la mia tecnica preferita nella lotta cinese. All'inizio del video mostro alcune applicazioni di Shou Bie contro calci e pugni. Quindi do una personale risposta ad una recente controversia diffusa in Rete: lo Shuai Jiao, la lotta cinese, sarebbe stata sviluppata solo dopo il 1920 in risposta allo sviluppo del Judo, si tratta di una assurdità storica. Segue il video didattico della scuola di Pechino del Maestro Li Baoru, fine anni 80. La tecnica Shou Bie viene eseguita con diversi passi, con diverse prese ed infine le sue controtecniche. Dagli archivi della Scuola Tiandihe.
Shou Bie video against punching and kicking • 手別子 In wrestling and a...
Playlist on Shou Bo and Shuai Jiao • Shou Bo and Shuai Jiao
Archive on PATREON / dantebasili

[@user-sr1sj8hk3m]

In fact, the sources of Chinese wrestling(s) are very diverse, just like anything else on the Eurasian. Han people in ancient times also developed their own wrestling skills, however many of the techniques that are circulated today are left by the Mongols and Jurchens. It is like the King Zhao-Wu-Ling in 300 BC, who learned mounted archery from the Central Asian civilization.

[@nikolamaricic3777]

Mongols learned it from Chinese and then transformed to Russia and it became Sambo

[@ramqi6239]

It doesn't matter where shuai jiao came from i love practicing the art anyway

[@DanteBasili]

me too 🙏🏽

[@shawn6669]

Who's propagating this nonsense about SC coming from Judo??? Just ridiculous.

[@SI-ln6tc]

-Theres a Dragon Bagua. It was created by a wrestler. Theres an old Dragon Bagua manual with pictures of grappling and throws. Wu style tai chi also a lot of wrestling. Said to be created by a wrestler. - Where is Mongolian wrestling from? Influenced by judo? - Why is there so many styles of wrestling in China and so wide spread? -How come Shuai jiao has 2 to 3 times more throws than judo?

[@trsgang4595]

Mangolian wrestling is in lineage with shuai jiao that’s why a lot of the throws are the same.

[@trsgang4595]

Also judo comes from jujitsu and bjj comes from judo and jujutsu comes from shuai jiao it’s just like karate how it came from white crane Kung fu it’s the same with the grappling arts shuai jiao is still old so it has a lot of dangerous techniques that you wouldn’t see in the younger art forms

[@kedabro1957]

Was Cheng Ting Hua the wrestler who created Dragon Bagua?

[@kedabro1957]

The Xie Pequi lineage groups all its throwing techniques under the Snake trigram: kzbin.info/www/bejne/n4HQeoZplJ58pJo

[@HabitHero4649]

nice video .thank you 応用が効きそうで面白いです。 最後に返し技あるのも面白いです。、 擒拿と八極拳をいま練習してますが、組み合わせても面白そうな部分がありました。

[@saturdaymorningkarate]

lots of info. nice video! thanks

[@benjamindiaz6260]

Muy interesante

[@shujiling213]

Awesome thank you

[@awfully.average]

im more afraid i'd get my elbow or shouders dislocated doing this , but they are very very beautiful throws

[@JonathanFortier]

Sifu, do you know of any Shou Bie practitioners here in the States? I'm in Southern California.

[@DanteBasili]

Hi, Shou Bie is just "one" technique of Shuai Jiao, the traditional Chinese wrestling. Looking like Shuai Jiao or Shuai Chiao you should find gyms in your area

[@FanHua.]

Most kungfu masters from northern China can do Chinese wrestling，you can ask Chinese kungfu clubs in your city.

[@JonathanFortier]

@@FanHua. Indeed. Thank you for your response.

[@user-lt8vw4fe4w]

@@JonathanFortier There is a gym in LA and the teacher is from Beijing. They have posted some videos few years ago. Don't know if they still operate or not.

[@Bts-Korea012]

very good

[@thesavant1455]

as we know Chinese martial arts easily go back 5000+ years, wrestling, sword and spear, archery as well, there's more than enough physical proof and other evidence, I'm kind of sick of hearing people claiming that their culture or a single culture invented everything or the claim that another copied them, it's like the claim that the roman's invented roads when really they just put a name to them, everyone and every culture has a different interpretation of an art or otherwise a skill, the fact is that these skills and discoveries have been around since the old tribes of those culture's, we just all have different interpretation's

[@jassimarsingh6505]

You are right, the Chinese civilisation is old

[@kobe51]

@@jassimarsingh6505 😅

[@zzajizz]

Actually most cultures have developed some form of wrestling/grappling in their history.

[@user-lt8vw4fe4w]

This video shows the main techniques of Shou Bie 手別. Bie in Shuaijiao refers to techniques which blocks the knee of your opponent horizontally while you rotate your body. Bie techniques include the use of hands and feet. Shuaijiao is much older than all the Jujitsu Ryu. Kano Jigoro studied Kito Ryu 起倒流 and Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu 天神真楊流, which was found in 1830's and a combination of two older Ryu, the Yoshin Ryu 楊心流 and Shin no Shindo Ryu 真之神道流, which was a branch of Yoshin Ryu. Maeda studied Judo at Kodokan when he was a child and was working with the Japanese government to promote immigration of Japanese to Brazil and Judo to Brazilian. He was awarded 7 dan shortly after his death by Kodoka and is still honored in Kodokan. Kimura Masahiko studied Judo from Ushijima Tatsukuma who studied Kyushin-Ryu 扱心流 when be was 15 in Kumamoto, a small prefecture in Kyushu who is also hometown of Yamashita. Kyushin-Ryu is believed to be derived from Kito Ryu. Both Kito Ryu and Yoshin Ryu claimed their founders learned the techniques from Chinese. I looked at both Ryu and Kodokan Waza and Kata and there are similarities, however the Ji Ben Gong 基本功 that we practice in Beijing and Tianjin are missing in Japanese ryu.

[@DanteBasili]

Grazie 🙏

[@user-lt8vw4fe4w]

@@DanteBasili Prego 👍

[@trashbasementproductions223]

Masahiko Kimura also competed in Kosen Judô in 1936 and 1937, he easily beat Hélio Gracie on the ground in 1951.

[@tokorojj]

What chinese grappling style has ground fighting? I've only seen one style (dog style) that emphasizes ground fighting but if there's other school, I would love to know about it.

[@user-lt8vw4fe4w]

@@tokorojj Folkstyles in southern China among the Yi, Miao, Yao etc. people. They are freestyle however allow belt grap.

[@taylorbee4010]

It could be, but more than likely the reverse is true that judo probably came from some sort of wrestling style

[@xKaidoh]

Judo is a descendent art of multiple styles of traditional jiu jitsu. I'm pretty sure the throws were from Kito Ryu jiu jitsu, but I can't remember the pinning techniques. I'm sure if you look into Jigoro Kano, the founder of Judo you'll be able to figure it out.

[@dorjedriftwood2731]

Many many different schools of jujitsu and then standardized to emphasize the throws over newaza or (ground locks). The major Newaza specialist Kano the founder sent to Brazil to demo, however he ran into hard times and in exchange for help he taught the Gracie’s his Families Jujitsu Style. Nobody has any idea what that style looks like as the Gracie literally claims they invented the concept of leverage and working of your back. I doubt this very much as a Japanese Newaza specialist would have been physically smaller than the Brazilians and would to have been very technical off his back. But Maeda the Japanese Jujitsu teacher did not leave a diary. It is of note in typical proud Japanese fashion he said he taught his Families JuJitsu not Kanos Judo. This seems to have held true has bjj takedowns appear almost nonexistent and the Japanese when challenging the BJJ fighters proclaim this jujitsu had been forgotten in Japan. The more pertinent part is that it was Kanos club collecting Jujitsu techniques meaning these were actual samurai no weapon fighting systems and so very well could be related to any number arts but most likely claim from the surviving war fighters canonizing what they learned on the battlefield.

[@trashbasementproductions223]

@@dorjedriftwood2731 Brazilian Jiu Jitsu came from Judô, Mitsuyo Maeda and Geo Omori came from Kodokan taught the Gracies, Takeo Yano also came from Kodokan and was influential in the Fadda lineage. The Gracies always lied a lot and they always wanted to disassociate themselves from Judô. Kosen Judô indirectly influenced the BJJ, hikikomi (pulling guard), sankaku jime (triangle) and a refinement of techniques like the guard (do osae), passing the guard and sweeps all this came from Kosen Judô, the Ono brothers brought the sankaku jime to Brazil. Bjj was also influenced by Wrestling.

[@teovu5557]

@@dorjedriftwood2731 Fun Fact: Maeda never studied Jujutsu his biography is well documented in Brazil and Japan, he studied Sumo in his youth then later studied Kodokan Judo. So I dont know where you got the idea he taught his "family's style of jujutsu" as his family didnt do martial arts and he didnt do jujutsu. Nor did he ever proudly say he only thought his families jujutsu style......lol Also Maeda didnt need to leave a diary as his life is well known as he married a brazilian women and his descendants STILL live in Brazil and his JUDO gym the ‘Conde Koma Judô Clube’ in Belem Brazil is still open and run by his family and Master Coimbra. Also 40% of the Judo gyms in Brazil trace back to Maeda. And the Japanese never said Jujutsu has been forgotten in Japan.....(Jujutsu is a generic term for hundreds of unrelated grappling styles in japan it is not a name of a style or system) Also Traidtional Japanese Jujutsu systems dont really have much ground grappling at all. Most of the Newaza we have today was developed in the 1890-1920s in Japan by Tanabe mataemon and later by Judoka's like Oda sensei etc. Japan from the 1890s to today still have a strong newaza tradition called Kosen Judo or more formally Nanatei Judo like this video- kzbin.info/www/bejne/r6nGcpuomZmfgK8 kzbin.info/www/bejne/rqjLiYmhmridY5I most of the mystery and myth and lies about Maeda comes the Gracies who twisted his life story to fit the narratives' thank god for Reila Gracies and her side of the family who exposes it in her new book about the BS and lies carlos and helio spread to "market BJJ".

[@denismorgan9742]

@@xKaidoh judo come from Kodakan jui jitsui this changed to kodakan judo this also changed again in Brazil back to a jui jitsui, Brazil spells jui jitsui differently becoming Brazilian ju jitsu. A similar thing happened to kempo jui jitsui when it went to America with spelling changes from Kempo to kenpo with jui jitsui and ju jitsu.

[@alexalysaa]

Thanks for promoting my culture

[@DanteBasili]

Wonderful culture 🙏🏽

[@Zack1440]

👍🏼

[@SifuEricKHermansen]

Intetesting

[@bgcorporation]

omg lol he turned it around and did a Single leg Boston crab. I love it lmfao.

[@michealbequignonappora8974]

Mesure , contre-mesure 🙏🙃🤗🤔🤗🙏 .

[@denismorgan9742]

I doubt each directly came from the other, as aikido is similar to North China kung fu, judo similar to central China kung fu and karate southern China kung fu. Could be related accidently not necessarily copied. After all great minds think alike. This kind of coincidence as happened in the past often.

[@teovu5557]

aikido is nothing like northern styles of kung fu....

[@denismorgan9742]

@@teovu5557 check it out properly, I did aiki jui jitsui and know a lot more than you. It is similar give and take a few bits and the style would be different.

[@teovu5557]

@@denismorgan9742 then link a KZbin video to a Northern kung Fu system doing techniques similar to aikido(which is mostly wristlocking and wristlocking throws into armbars against a charging opponents who basically just sticks their arm out while you pivot away from them etc. (I also did tomaki aikido) as aikido was created by ueshiba sensei in the 1940s based on daito ryu aikijujutsu......and looks nothing like northern kung Fu(like taizu Quan,Lohan Quan,chaquan,bajiquan,tanglang Quan etc etc) the closest would be baqua Quan but only in terms of circular footwork but has nearly zero of aikido trademark wristlocking,arm locking circular throws and takedowns nor does aikido do "forms" like kung Fu. Surprise I know more then you think. Btw still waiting for you to name the northern kung Fu styles that you claim are so similar to aikido. If you can't then I rest my case. Lol

[@denismorgan9742]

@@teovu5557 it was baqua quan but there is some rare one's that you have not mentioned, and yes my father also did aikido and my grandfather also did jui jitsui training as a army medical officer. Some of the full length arm movements are compatible with some form's of aikido and aiki jui jitsui, don't just look for wrist locks and grips, some movement's are similar to shoulder manipulations and moving the opponent around themselves. And some of these northern kung-fu form's needs closer inspection then looking for the strikes, punches and kicks.

[@teovu5557]

@@denismorgan9742 Bagua and aikido only have vaguely similar footwork but largely different movement and techniques as I said. Aikido tecniques- kzbin.info/www/bejne/npDOo2Cvg8adha8 bagua techniques kzbin.info/www/bejne/mIjEgYWKitWmo6M Aikido is standing joint locks/wristlocking throws and takedowns into pins(as if most jujutsu systems) while Bagua is mostly palm strikes hence the name ZHANG in Bagua ZHANG not quan. I wrote it Bagua quan on purpose knowing you'll copy the wrong spelling because you dont know what your talking about. hilariously you fell for it. haha! Also notice how you didnt name your northern rare styles that look just like aikido you mention nor links/videos because you cant(due to you bullshitting) . checkmate son

[@placidomoreiraleite4515]

Muito bom.

[@BILLIESGUITARDIARY]

中国武術って世界中の武術の中でも身体の使い方が独特だよね。 パワーに頼らない独自の発展を遂げている。筋力を鍛える西洋医学的な身体づくりとは一線を画しているところがこの独自の発展を支えているんだろう。

[@DanteBasili]

True! 🙏🏽

[@TeeangeAnarchist]

Judo came from shiao jiao & chin na

[@Dragonflyjones67]

What controversy???? A lot of Japanese war culture and martial science came from Chinese culture. A lot of Japanese doesn't want to admit it, because they pride a art, they supposely created as their own. But yet? A lot of Japanese is partaking in a lot Chinese martial art's too expand interest....... It's good too not limit, but; broaden your horizons.

[@trashbasementproductions223]

China influenced the Japanese a lot, but the Japanese adapted and improved a lot and created and over the time they developed ground fighting as the Chinese never did. The Japanese created the katana that was superior to the Chinese sword.

[@xinyiquan666]

@@trashbasementproductions223 stop BS, stop saying thing you dont know, chinese no ground fighting? idooot, chinese gou fist and emei fist are focus on ground fighting, and katana is inferior and simple compared with even chinese miao dao, let alone chinese sword, also japanese copies pretty much everything from china, even lanuages, but japanese never able to develop or improved anything, stop BS...

[@peterwang5660]

@@xinyiquan666 I understand defending our prestige as a people, but we do have a bad reputation of aggressive chest-beating, I just hope you have not angered him too much and now we have another china-hater in the world.

[@thelonewolf4429]

Let me subscribe this so interesting

[@DanteBasili]

Grazie 🙏🏽

[@charlesbetancourt7337]

@@DanteBasili What do you have to say to people who say shuai Jiao is not Chinese but Mongolian?

[@svenwittscheck4409]

Das lernt man im ersten Jahr beim Ringen

[@user-tu6qp7tk3y]

Самбо вышло из дзюдо, дзюдо из дзю-дзюца, а дзю-дзюца из Китая. В Китай пришло из Индии, а в Индию откуда? Если все источники мира знают, что историю Индии писали европейцы, а не индусы.

[@user-yx1ue1lt5z]

당시 중국은 지금의 중국이 아니다. 중국공산당은 다른 중국이다.

[@laerciodasilvasouza8153]

Pra bater em leigo, acho que funciona! Que bosta!!!!

[@Master-AGN]

What’s the controversy, India is the older culture so everything comes from India, even acupuncture and kyusho.

[@SI-ln6tc]

Theres archeological evidence of stone and bone needles in China. Also the literature on acupuncture predates marmas. Also old bronze man statues of acupuncture points. Indian marmas and Chinese acupuncture probably developed separately.

[@Master-AGN]

@Tim Willemsen I could counter argue that Indus Valley is the cradle of all civilisation or that Africans have wrestling so Chinese MA come from Africa. however, you have missed the point entirely. CCP “predating therefore” of judo claim is utterly fallacious and illogical. It is nothing but racist ploy to argue that the Chinese are superior to Japanese. So I use their logic against their argument. The human body can only move in so many ways and indigenous arts developed in different part of the world will tend to like each other.

[@peterwang5660]

@@Master-AGN Have you checked the thread starting with this comment? This has nothing to do with the CCP, just a matter of a cultural centre's relationship to a smaller culture very much within the sphere of influence. "This video shows the main techniques of Shou Bie 手別. Bie in Shuaijiao refers to techniques which blocks the knee of your opponent horizontally while you rotate your body. Bie techniques include the use of hands and feet. Shuaijiao is much older than all the Jujitsu Ryu. Kano Jigoro studied Kito Ryu 起倒流 and Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu 天神真楊流, which was found in 1830's and a combination of two older Ryu, the Yoshin Ryu 楊心流 and Shin no Shindo Ryu 真之神道流, which was a branch of Yoshin Ryu. Maeda studied Judo at Kodokan when he was a child and was working with the Japanese government to promote immigration of Japanese to Brazil and Judo to Brazilian. He was awarded 7 dan shortly after his death by Kodoka and is still honored in Kodokan. Kimura Masahiko studied Judo from Ushijima Tatsukuma who studied Kyushin-Ryu 扱心流 when be was 15 in Kumamoto, a small prefecture in Kyushu who is also hometown of Yamashita. Kyushin-Ryu is believed to be derived from Kito Ryu. Both Kito Ryu and Yoshin Ryu claimed their founders learned the techniques from Chinese. I looked at both Ryu and Kodokan Waza and Kata and there are similarities, however the Ji Ben Gong 基本功 that we practice in Beijing and Tianjin are missing in Japanese ryu."

[@The_Hardtimer]

Read your history more carefully, there's no need for any INDIAN propaganda and we all know that East Asian Martial arts don't have much of a link to Indian martial arts. Excluding India, almost NOBODY in the world agrees that everything came from India.

[@nicholasgreen339]

​@@The_Hardtimertrue..

[@giovannimannelli2158]

Parrebbe efficace anche per la difesa personale.

[@DanteBasili]

Certo!

[@woklam342]

make love is the oldest martial arts. men and woman start making millions years ago

[@kobe51]

Who believed chinese wrestling comes from judo?😅😅😅😅

[@DanteBasili]

I have received a lot of comments on this in Shuai Jiao's previous videos 🙂

[@LeviathanLee]

The mma bjj fan boy crowd. They tend to push a heavy anti Asian narrative with a pro Murican spin and have been since they showed up. They usually have zero historical knowledge and just blindly push the narrative. I've seen a few on these video threads. Just proud to be stupid imo

[@nicholasgreen339]

Its crazy how people who know a lot don't no the actual history. . Judo as we no it Is 100 years old ...or a bit more Chinese wrestling way older

[@rjj54321]

kung pooooo

[@tanteancheng2596]

原來柔道是原自中國。

[@judofan9467]

Complete nonsense! No one ever said China never had wrestling or that Shuai Jiao came from Judo. It's about modern day Shuai Jiao being influenced by Judo. Modern Shuai Jiao was majorly INFLUENCED by Judo and the Japanese Bushido sport movement of late 19th and early 20th century. The early Republic era Chinese saw how Judo, Kendo and Sumo was used to booster Japanese nationalism and wanted the same thing for China. Since Han Chinese wrestling died out a long time ago they had to go with the next best thing. Manchu wrestling. Modern Shuai Jiao has no Han Chinese roots whatsoever. Modern Shuai Jiao is of Manchu and Mongolian origin. Just like how Judo grew out old jujutsu schools and was systematized in 1882, modern Shuai Jiao grew out of the old Qing dynasty Manchu wrestling schools and solidify into a new modern style of "Chinese" wrestling in the 1920s.

[@joanstone6740]

Any modern grappling jujitsu practitioner will take your back get your neck trying this technique outdated

[@ehisey]

Not true still works just fine. As it with any other back turn, it is all in the timing.

[@navigatingel6104]

It's an arm through it's not that different

[@navigatingel6104]

Oh you're thinking MMA, this is for street fighting.

[@charliesims7302]

Doesn't have to be shuai jiao. Your theory would work equally well on wrestlers and judoka as well. And yet.. standup grapplers continue to dominate in mixed martial arts for example. The vast majority of ufc champions are primarily wrestlers not bjj practitioners. Who has choked randy couture, york romero, brock lesnar, khabib nurmegamadov. As a bjj practitioners myself I think you are vastly underestimating the difficulty of catching a stand up grappler in any technique. Grappling techniques are awesome but they work much better on the ground. For instance. Standing submissions are legal in judo. How many judo matches are finished that way? How about bjj same ruleset in terms of standup submissions. Being on the ground exponentially increases your attack options and the difficulty with which you can pull it off.

[@blockmasterscott]

Just because an experienced grappler knows how to counter does not mean it’s outdated or useless. Very few people know how to grapple or counter grappling techniques.