The PROBLEM with the combat in DUNE

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[@comlitbeta7532]

My two grain of salt if i remember correctly, 1 the max speed allowed fro shield penetration isnt that low, it's low enough to protect from bullets but most humans movement can pass through and this is where the trick is, you need to moov fast enough to do damage but slow enough to bypass shield. 2 if you have a shiel up on arakis a sandworm is rapidly approaching your location.

[@dangingerich2559]

There's also notation in the books of firing a laser at a shield results in an explosion on par with nuclear fusion bombs.

[@Luziferne]

A Shields causes Vibrations, in the old Lynch Film they had an very audible HUM Vibrations attracts the Shai-Hulud… Something that was sometimes employed by Fremen to attract Worms

[@Luziferne]

@@Filthee_casual @dangingerich2559 The Shield together with a LasGun (those weren't lasers if I remember rightly) would produce through reflection subatomic reactions equal to kiloton Fission Explosions on both Ends, even with hand-held ones. Vehicular sized could devastate Lands & Continents, large City-wide ones like the Shieldwall the whole planet. And due to the religiously followed ban of the use of any atomic weapons on living Planets, because of the radioactivity involved, thats a no go which would make your own people deliver your head to the current Padishah-Emperor Atomic Weapons where used on space installations and, like Muad'Dib did, as Stone Burners to cut ways through mountains or dig tunnels Which later caused his Blindness, as those Stone burners later were used to ignite troops and as IED's for Terror

[@MrGaleanon]

Nail gun boxing gloves.

[@darkbringer1440]

Two grains is too much, must conserve water.

[@absolutmauser]

I like that you clarified that it's not a real sandworm tooth dagger 😂

[@aaronjones3408]

He clarified it's not a real blade. IE: Not metal/sharp

[@Yarblocosifilitico]

he's from Australia, so it's a necessary clarification

[@kronoscamron7412]

🤣🤣

[@Nokaret]

United Cuttlery sells the real ones too, but they're a bit pricey 😄

[@absolutmauser]

@@aaronjones3408 These are the jokes. I’m here all week. Tip your waiter!

[@kennethfharkin]

When you see Duncan hitting people with a fast moving blade and penetrating the shield I believe there is more at work. He moves fast to get into contact and position, then slows his thrust to penetrate. This is a testament to Duncan's phenomenal skill and control, to be able to immediately slow the fast thrust at the last fraction of a second in order to get past the shield. At other times he is hammering people aside, while not penetrating he the force of the attack exists knocking foes off guard.

[@ehbiscuit]

True, we are supposed to understand something of the discipline and skill of Duncan and Gurney when it comes to this specialized form of combat. Also, many have made the point of once the shield is breached until the weapon exits the shield it has the freedom to move with speed. I rewatched part one last night and noticed most of those Duncan moments... He performs a slashing attack at one of the joint points of armor like the neck, torso to abdomen, sides of the torso like obliques and armpit. So while he would not have the force to penetrate armor underneath the shield with a piercing attack, he would have the real estate/surface area to perform a slash across the weak points of joints in typical armor setups at nearly full speed once the shield had been breached by the weapon. (also why I think the filmmakers used the red and blue digital effects for the audience's benefit to understand when a shield had been breached).

[@vismaykedilaya1318]

To add to this, maybe he speeds his blade up once he gets through the shield to deal some more damage since the shield doesn't seem to enact any sort of sliding friction.

[@Sol-Invictus]

He is a sword master hired by a great house and training the single heir. He's also the real main character of Frank Hubert's novels.

[@captnwinkle]

​@@Sol-Invictus clones don't count!!

[@mcmarkmarkson7115]

How is a slow blade penetrating armor? It makes no sense.

[@EnigmaticPeanut]

shields in that universe are like non-newtonian fluids. solid when you go fast, liquid when you are slow.

[@leonides4377]

Yes

[@Cdre_Satori]

heck tey work for oxygen too, so you cant even run fast with shield because you would suffocate :D I think it also poisons air inside so you cant have it on all the time which is just workaround to why not wear it all the time

[@natashaweikath1487]

Good morning Sir, what an interesting video. I believe if you were to go off the book people do not wear armour in the Dune book because of the shields. Also, on Dune or Arrakis it would clearly be very unwise to wear any type of armour as it would immediately drain your body of your water with all the sweating you would clearly be doing within that armour. From memory, I do not think the word armour is even mentioned in Dune book, whereas the Shields and stillsuit clearly is. I think they only put on the armour for the movie as another visual effect. Thank you for sharing, have a lovely day.

[@arturnicaciodeandrade9861]

In Children of Dune (third book of the series) there is a mercenary who is wearing metal armor, its just a breastplate, but its still armour, which is worn over a stillsuit.

[@natashaweikath1487]

@@arturnicaciodeandrade9861 Good afternoon and thank you for taking the time to reply. Is that in the book or the mini series? I shall see if I can do a word search regarding the book to see if armour is mentioned. The metal breastplate would clearly make the stillsuit have to work a lot harder as it would be very hot in the heat on Dune, and any movement would cause the person wearing it to sweat more and more often. Have a lovely day.

[@Errtuabyss]

@@natashaweikath1487 He already clarified it's in the third book (don't belief that part was ever filmed as the mini-series left out more details from the books.. would have to re-watch it to check). It's mentioned as something special, therefor it's an exception, which means others don't wear (such) armour. Wearing anything on top of a Stillsuit is irrelevant to the loss of water since the suit is suppose to seal in the whole body (except the face) so even higher rate of sweating shouldn't be relevant for the loss of water. What it would affect is your rate of fatigue through the additional weight and possibly heat isolation (sweating is still costing energy and the heat reduction of the Stillsuit has limits). The books never go into details regarding the equipment. We know that not all houses had all soldiers equipped with personal shields (as they are expensive) but they could just skip armour altogether and focus more on the conventional weapons (artillery is mentioned as the key weapon as soon as the shields are missing). It's probably reasonable to assume most have some kind of kevlar or basic plates for splinter protection. Or that Herbert just didn't think about it as it wasn't relevant to the story as he told it.

[@natashaweikath1487]

@@Errtuabyss Hi and thanks for your reply. Yeah in the Children of Dune books they do say about the "armor". "Halleck swept the folds of cloth over Namri's head, came in under and through the cloth with his own knife aimed directly for the face. He felt the point bite home as Namri's body hit him with a hard surface of metal armor beneath the robe. The Fremen emitted one outraged squeal, jerked backward, and fell. He lay there, blood gushing from his mouth as his eyes glared at Halleck then slowly dulled. Halleck blew air through his lips. How could that fool Namri have expected anyone to miss the presence of armor beneath a robe"? We don't have to worry about whether or not other houses had or didn't have shields for their people simply because we are only talking about the fighting on Dune where every drop of water/moisture is precious. You are correct that fighting with any type of armour on, or armor as they say in Children of Dune regarding that scene would drain a person, but also you would have to be consuming all of that water back into your system much more if you had any type of armour on over your stillsuit or you would dehydrate and drop in the heat. The also talk about the sandworm "armor" for Leto, but that is all that is mentioned. Have a lovely day.

[@natashaweikath1487]

The spelling of the word armour is different in those books, they say "armor". In Dune the book whilst on Arrakis they actually do say: "I've taken over a council room topside here. We’ll hold staff there. I want to arrange a new planetary dispersal order with armored squads going out first". So that actually would suggest that there would be "armored" soldiers. Now whether or not this is before they realise the realities of the planet or not, or that they would wear armour in the cities and villages because they couldn't wear shields they don't explain. It is interesting however that in fact it is mentioned, but not for the fremen, just for the Atreides and nobody else. Or maybe they are not talking about the soldiers being "armored" but their vehicles, or it is possible that they meant the squads going out with shields and that could be the meaning of "armor"? I suppose the only person to know is Mr Herbert.

[@ShadowWolfTJC]

Interesting fact about Dune's shields: If you shoot a shield with a lasgun, it would cause a chain reaction that's comparable to an atomic bomb (my guess would be a small-scale nuclear device on par with a massive fuel-air bomb, such as a MOAB, or a TOS-1), which would consume both the shield and the lasgun. With that in mind, why hasn't anyone thought about developing disposable missiles that shoot lasguns at shielded targets? Sure, the Butlerian Jihad may have made thinking machines illegal (perhaps including simple computers), but surely, it shouldn't be hard to develop a basic missile guidance system, right? I remember playing the old Emperor: Battle for Dune real-time strategy game, which took place within the Dune universe, and one of my strategies for dealing with House Ordos's shielded units was to use an Ixian Projector Tank to create false copies of Ordos laser tanks, and then send those projections on suicide runs against Ordos shielded units.

[@shawn6860]

Like the laser Warheads in Battletech. launch and forget laser clusters.

[@Michael-kd1ho]

Funny you should mention the Ixians. They were always skirting juston the edge - and often over the edge - of what was considered "legal" AI technology. A missile guiding system is a computer. Computers are a big no no. And wars fought t between humans after the Butlerian Jihad were very regulated - more like large scale honor duels than wars. Rules were set by the Landsraad regarding weapons allowed, limited theater of operations, etc. All the Dune strategy games basically depict a war exactly like this.

[@SheyD78]

If I remember correctly, it was actually 50/50 whether the shield or the lasgun detonated in a nuclear like explosion. It wasn't necessarily both, but the risk was so high they just stopped using them. Real world this would just lead to using missiles with laser heads so it wouldn't matter which detonated.

[@tjasra]

@@Michael-kd1ho Glowglobes are fairly ubiquitous in the Dune universe, and those can follow a person around and then go to a pre programmed position in a room upon entry. Seems to me that would be simple enough to guide a missile to a target.

[@Riceball01]

There is an actual (theoretical) weapon that does this, it's called a bomb or nuclear pumped laser. The very basics of it is that a bomb, or missile uses a nuclear warhead that creates lasers when it detonates. This was, apparently, being developed in the '80s under Reagan but was never fully developed of fielded. But bomb pumped lasers are a part of the standard arsenal in the Honor Harrington series of boosk.

[@markkodryk829]

Slow, in this case, means slower than bullets, explosions and that sort of things. It doesn’t mean move like a snail.

[@sjorsvanhens]

If this were the official explanation, it would solve many problems in such a simple way and I'd be completely satisfied with it

[@Schwuuuuup]

​@@sjorsvanhensdoesn't it say "the slow blade penetrates the shield" instead of the "a slow blade"... assuming ALL blades are slow?

[@MuscleWizard.]

​@@Schwuuuuup yes, that's the explanation

[@sjorsvanhens]

@@Schwuuuuup Then this comment needs to be upvoted. So much useless speculation out there

[@jarosaww2825]

@@Schwuuuuupdunno, maybe it's "the saw blade penetrates the shield"... they alls should have chainswords!

[@brandonguffey5959]

The guy that brings a spear to a dune battle is gonna be a legend.

[@toddkes5890]

Powerful electrical charges can bring down shields, I'd like to see someone with a generator make an electrified halberd that can bring down the shield just before impact then the halberd cuts into the target's shoulder. Or a ranged weapon that uses piezoelectricity, so upon impacting the shield the impact causes the round to make an electrical field, causing a small hole in the shield, and the shaped charge behind the piezoelectric charge will detonate. You'd need a large round for this (larger than 12-gauge shotgun slug?), but it would be a sudden surprise for ranged weapons to make a comeback.

[@dragonknightleader1]

A Macedonian Phalanx would be so powerful against shield users that it's a wonder why it isn't standard doctrine.

[@toddkes5890]

@@dragonknightleader1It would be great defensively, and the Atreides when fighting the Harkonnens on the stairs did something similar. Unfortunately the Atreides only had enough men to form a 2-deep 'phalanx', and were later attacked from the rear by Sardaukar. The problem is that a phalanx mainly used long spears, which would be easily batted aside by a shield-wearer and difficult to reposition. The following ranks would have to slowly move their spears forward to penetrate enemy shields (less than 4 inches per second) and try to move them past the ranks in front of them. How do you think a phalanx formation would help in shield combat? Would it be the semi-square formation, the armor, the weapons, the training, or?

[@brandonguffey5959]

@@toddkes5890 the advantage of a spear, besides reach, is that you don't need to swing the weapon as fast to get the needed leverage to penetrate things as you would a sword. I think ideally this would favor a slow moving defensively minded unit most of all.

[@brandonguffey5959]

@@toddkes5890 It's a bit of an assumption that you can just "move the spears out of the way" considering a shorter bladed weapon is going to have less leverage than the spear, on top of the spear users allies also being able to offend you.

[@lewisbenzie845]

SHIELD, DEFENSIVE: the protective field produced by a Holtzman generator. This field derives from Phase One of the suspensor-nullification effect. A shield will permit entry only to objects moving at slow speeds (depending on setting, this speed ranges from six to nine centimeters per second) and can be shorted out only by a shire-sized electric field.

[@HumblebeeRules]

So what you need is some sort of telescopic blade that will eject itself once you push it slowly through the shield.

[@TrueFork]

@@HumblebeeRulesslowly push through a chisel then hit it with a hammer :D

[@wauzers]

​@HumblebeeRules Hunter Seeker, but it's not a blade or knife per say.

[@marcogenovesi8570]

a shire-sized electric field? Don't threaten me with a good time like that

[@Axterix13]

@@HumblebeeRulesOr, you know, slowly shove the barrel of a gun through, then pull the trigger.

[@thing4826]

Solution: Wikipedia page - Powerhead (Firearm)... It's so easy to overlook and it just popped into my head "wait... didn't humans already invent the perfect weapon for dune without thinking about it?"

[@THECHEESELORD69]

Monkeys on typewriters

[@jeromethiel4323]

You can cut kevlar with scissors. It has a high tensile strength (which is needed of stopping bullets), but not all that cut resistant. You can make it cut resistant, if you make it crazy thick (like chainmail, not cloth). And at that point, a lot of plastics are cut resistant.

[@sylvaindupuis5595]

I think you have to take in consideration the history of the shield in that world. I think it was created to stop bullets and energy weapons, that created a return to blades in actual combat since it's easier to slow a blade than a bullet. Since the shield is there to stop bullets, only the surface need to be hard to penetrate, so I think that once the tip of a blade has gone true, you can go faster. This will give a preference to long thin blades where the section would be the same once the tip pass true the field. A dagger that goes tapered in a V shape will still meet some resistance as the section get wider and prevent you to go faster for the final blow.

[@leroyjenkins4811]

Shields in the Dune universe don’t actually stop energy weapons. They have energy weapons in the form of lasers. That’s about it. Shields produced nuclear explosion, wiping out potentially hundreds of thousands of troops and pieces of equipment at a time, when shot with lasers. If I knew your army was attacking me with troops and vehicles equipped with shields, I’d target you with drones and sentry guns equipped with lasers and blow everything to hell. Shields are stupid. They’d only be useful when you could fix the nuclear explosion problem, which can’t be fixed. It’s a permanent design flaw/design phenomenon called the Holtzman effect, named after Tio Holtzman, the inventor of shield technology.

[@TheGreatDayne1983]

The army’s are just for the nobility to play the game of thrones The bene gessiret and spacing guild have worked for millennia to remove as much danger and effectiveness from the nobility and their armies as possible War in dune is a game to keep the nobility out of the way of actual important business

[@nordoceltic7225]

Which is a reflection of the Medieval era. Sure it was nonstop warfare, but because it was based around melee combat where elite fighters were better than a dozen peasant militia, war was largely a game for nobility. "Game" in that it really was more a dispute settlement than anything. Nobles would struggle against each other in field warfare while the merchant factions, the Chruch, and the peasantry looked on, and largely conducted their business as usual, ready to do business with whoever won. And one of the things that GREATLY limited ancient wars was the fact that resupply and reequipping took so long that one side would eventually lose enough elite warrior (and their gear) that their ability to sustain war failed, and thus a victory was achieved for the opposition. And there was no point in burning the land, razing the towns, and killing the peasants because none of these were really real factors in the other faction's ability to fight short term. After all after a lord lost most of his knights to capture or KIA, could he go to the "knight factory" and churn out another force of men with expensive hand made equipment and 15 years of training. Compare that to the modern day when an entire force is wiped out more civilians are drafted, given 6 weeks training (at best), and the tank and aircraft factories spit out new army's equipment in mere weeks in an all or nothing wartime economy. This is why a full intensity peer vs peer modern war has to revolve around destroying the entire nation of the enemy, including slaughtering their civilians (to deny them skilled workers and new recruits), not just their military forces. War was far from meaningless in those days, it after all determined which faction would have political leadership of a region, and thus set policy. But it also wasn't heinously disruptive and destructive like it is in the modern era: where a long war might mean the total annihilation of civilization itself as economic centers, infrastructure, and populations are directly targeted with the goal to obliterate them to deny the enemy those resources. Which makes modern ware so heinous. To win, one has to destroy the very things they wish to capture in a war, resources, economy, and useful populations.

[@ordikaskirita5234]

@@nordoceltic7225 Yes you understand that difference. Its also kind of a reflection of the City State Warfare in Greece too. Limitations on fighting, times of fighting etc. Alot of people just do not understand the concepts of medieval and classical [Greek mostly] warfare decorum. I know its fully a major problem with modern viewers to think, that its horrible for people to play a "game" as it were throwing people into a fight with each other. For entertainment or settling a dispute. When we destroy civilizations for far less, and with less restraint. In the medieval era you didn't want to kill the serfs of a territory they were valuable labor force that would unnecessarily cause issues for a conquering lord. But, this changes especially during the religious wars. Because the beliefs of the conquered people didn't match up...and so many tried to wipe out the opposing view. Although that is not 100% the case in history. Some medieval lords and rulers would allow different religions and political groups in their territory...granted they didn't undermine their authority and ownership of the territory. This shifts when we close in and around the Renaissance and Enlightenment Eras.

[@bigolbearthejammydodger6527]

well said, this echoes my comment nicely. All war is heabily regulated by the landsraad - despite advanced weapons and armour tech existing it is in breach of treaties to use it - and it will get your house forcibly removed. So much of the dune setting is about the houses backstabbing each other and walking the line on the weapon tech they use.

[@corneliusmaze-eye2459]

See now that's what's incredible about Dune. It's so rich with layered worldbuilding, both alien and realistic.

[@LordDirus007]

Makes sense, they are High Tech in certain areas and low tech in War.

[@luzfire7523]

Best thing against Dune shields? Spring Loaded or chemically loaded Blade. After touching the enemy, One Button press and that sucker gets propelled through most armor. I would also say a gunsword/gunaxe would be interesting, but they tend to be a bit on the delicate side.

[@sjorsvanhens]

Yes! The gunblade! Finally an use for that. Also maybe a rifle with a bayonet.

[@comlitbeta7532]

As a matter of fact, poison blades are a recurring thing in the settings

[@apocolototh1948]

that is already how it works if i remember the books correctly(its been ages), the sandworm teeth have incredibly toxic kinda nettles on them that penetrate armor, and the other weapons are techecd up to pretty much penetrate armor without problem(I think monomolecular vibro or something)

[@primmakinsofis614]

Special hand grenade. Slip it past the shield, stick it to the enemy's clothing, pull the pin, withdraw your hand. The explosion takes out the opponent while your shield protects you from all the shrapnel.

[@mikkohernborg5291]

I think you overestimate the power of spring-loaded blades… they can do some damage, but become incredibly dangerous for the user the more force it has. And the recoil is terrible. Plus, you still need acceleration distance to convey the most momentum; otherwise you get a pushing impulse that is most likely to rebound your arm away when faced with a hard surface. Gun-sword/gun-axe would suffer the same problem as a normal gun - the shield is close enough to the body that what little part you can push through is just the end of the barrel, and so most of the acceleration of the projectile still happens outside the shield (and the barrel doesn’t stop the shield projector from working inside of it), so you'd just blow up the end of the gun. Barring that the shields work in basically magic-like ways, Frank Herbert was explicit about his purpose of introducing them: to make the societies in the book operate in warfare without relying on conventional projectile weapons. The treaty of the Great Houses doesn’t just cover 'ordinary' nukes, forbidding their use, but also shield-lasgun reaction weapons - which produce a destructive force comparable to an 'Atomic' weapon. Paul breaks this taboo (despite not using it against humans, but to break the shield-wall) against the use of Atomics, and suffers from one being used against him and his troops in turn.

[@ScottyAlmondjoy]

Would a snubby revolver on the end of a stick get past the shield? I guess it depends on how close the shield is to the skin.

[@toddkes5890]

Or if the shield can 'put itself' inside the barrel? I.e. does the shield extend outwards from the emitter at a certain distance from the person's skin then cover the person (1984 Dune), or does the shield start at the person's skin and extend outwards?

[@mrkiky]

This is what I was thinking, even if the shield gets into the barrel, then just make it so the bullet is all the way to the muzzle, you don't really need it to travel through a barrel because you're not shooting long distance. Heck put a damn arrow head on a spring that releases. Press it through the shield, push the button, schooch straight through, dead.

[@henrywalton5967]

Big problem would be if the bullet passed through the body and hit the shield on the other side wouldn't their be an explosion?

[@ScottyAlmondjoy]

@@henrywalton5967 only the laser weapons cause explosions. Bullets don’t have that problem. They just move way too fast.

[@toddkes5890]

@@henrywalton5967That might mean the explosion occurs inside the enemy shield, so all the impact is on their body.

[@OutspokenSeeker]

The thing about the martial arts in the new Dune movie is that a lot of it is based around FMA (Filipino Martial Arts) specifically a variant that is known for using shorter sticks/blades that work well with blending it with the described short blades of Dune. Knife fighting in FMA isn’t all about randomly poking at bits of armour from afar, it’s almost like grappling the other persons arms around so you can get your own knife to their neck, or under their arm. The best scene which exemplifies this is the final fight in part 1. Plus, we must consider that technology in Dune is very unusual to most sci fi’s, where shield technology became so powerful and practical that small scale ranged weaponry became too expensive for how impractical it was. Even stuff like physical artillery was considered highly irregular and rare. Also look at the other factions in Dune, the Sarduakar don’t even wear any visibly plated armour, and their bodysuits look more like some advanced padded stuff. The Harkonnen do look like they have some more solid pieces but then also a lot that looks padded. So maybe armour in general is not even that that useful in the world when compared to a shield. Why waste so much money designing and making an expensive tailored suit of armour for a single person when a shield will do the same job and require a twentieth of the raw materials? Even the Atreides armour while nice might be more useful for stopping projectile weaponry or debris than a blade passing through the many joints in the plate. So, we have a world where melee weapons are small and look like they can be easily produced to a high quality, where armour isn’t favoured even by the armies of the Emperor and the fighting style that is shown off by actors who get the dedicated training show off a style of knife fighting well suited to seeking gaps in clothes and armour anyways.

[@tomizatko3138]

Couldn't they just make super material armour without gaps?

[@OutspokenSeeker]

@@tomizatko3138 and exactly how expensive would that be? How time consuming would it be to make even a single set of armour? Remember, AI are outright banned in Dune, even on the very small scale of things. So to automate the process would be extraordinarily difficult and costly, and even if you had a factory complex churning these out, this isn’t a product you’d want to share to your enemies, so you aren’t making any money off of a process of making your army even less sustainable and cost effective than it was already

[@Errtuabyss]

A few minor correction. Artillery is a bit more nuanced. It was mentioned as mostly obsolete because of the prevalence of shields, but still in use for either targeting infrastructure (without a shield dome) or against opponents without shields (which would be lower houses that can't afford shields for all their troops or civilians). The Harkonnen kept a good number of artillery because of their vast spy network that enables them to do things like they did to the Atreides. Short ranged weapons also do exist (for example Needle Pistols) but are exclusively produced by Ixians, which makes them rare, expensive and partly prohibited (as they use technology that dates back to the time before the Butlerian Jihad). You couldn't equip your military with them, but they are common weapons for assassins and probably bodyguards and such. It's also ironic how much emphasis is put on how shields hard counter laser weapons but somehow they are still widely used in the military. Especially since other weapons are mentioned to not be used for the same reason. Shields always where a big point of discussion about the lore. They are key to how many things work in the world but they do have problems you have to ignore for them to work.

[@OutspokenSeeker]

@@Errtuabyss you may be right about the artillery, I haven’t read through the first book to the end yet, but the physical artillery is the Emperors, as far as I’m aware. But my point wasn’t that it wasn’t present but that even a big gun to fire from far away was far more niche and not as commonplace as we might expect in a modern warzone.

[@soulknife20]

​@@tomizatko3138Well. You have to have gaps in armor for movement. Also, you have to see.

[@feartheghus]

Honestly this is mostly because the shields and their unique fighting techniques are less about being perfectly accurate to practicality and more about having a unique culture and because of the tactical rock paper scissor game between conventional weapons, lazguns, and shields. One is completely blocked by the shield but the other creates a mutually assured destruction by fusion nuclear bomb. The harkonnen had conventional artillery but couldn't use it if the atreides knew, since they had a shield. Instead the trick was to pretend you'd be using lazguns to blow up the entire city in one shot to the shield, forcing the shield to drop, and allowing for good old artillery to be used.

[@GoldenH]

In the books the shield works by deflecting fast objects. But I don't think it could stop a spear once the tip is through the shield because the spear shaft is moving through the same space. It also might even provide leverage for twisting, providing a fulcrum at thr fastest point of the spear that you can then apply to the armored target

[@brandonlaird6876]

In the books they are attached to the belt. In the extended prequels, mention is made of the Holtzman Effect having a minimum radius but that's only mentioned specifically for Invisibility, don't know if that applies to Shields and Engines. However, you could say that anything inside the field has no effect placed upon it, which allows the body to move freely within the AOE. For invisibility you can see yourself and the ship. For folding space, space is folded outside of the AOE while you stay "stationary". So you could say anything *outside* the field is where an effect takes place. Since the shield is attached to the belt, this would preferably be a prolate spheroid (think Rugby or American Football ball) with the long end upwards. Once you are inside the outer radius of the shield, you would have unfettered movement capability as the defender would have inside. However, retrieving the blade would mean that an extension of the lack of effect is necessary, and that any part of the object shielded (you and anything you're wearing/wielding) would similarly be unfettered. Thus, a long-winded way of saying that once you gain access inside the shield, you can proceed to thrust as normal. This, of course, is not following the shields of the movie, only what's presented in the books. I believe the only difference I'm missing or wrong on would be in what's shielded and the distance, but that still once you're inside the shield you are free from movement constraints. Oh, and there's the case that eventually the shield will overheat from too much abuse. Also lasers. Also landmines & slow rolled grenades. I may have forgotten something, but having read all 19 books several times in the last few years I feel I've covered a good portion of it. Hope this helps someone, and feel free to correct me - I do not have a mentat's perfect memory.

[@Ph03nix1]

I seem to recall that using a laser against someone using a shield would result in an explosion that would kill both parties, and ballistic firearms are almost completely ineffective, but melee weapons are still plenty effective against a shielded opponent. It’s been a few years, so I’m probably misremembering a lot

[@brandonlaird6876]

@@Ph03nix1 Exactly right. Laser + Shield = Pseudoatomic explosion on both ends. Something to do with the speed of light not being changeable I believe. Pesky light, why won't you slow down! Boom!

[@THECHEESELORD69]

@@brandonlaird6876and the explosion is like the size that a nuke makes right?

[@brandonlaird6876]

@@THECHEESELORD69 I'm not 100% sure of the size, but yeah it's definitely large enough they know it's not a traditional explosion. A laser pistol vs a personal shield caused most of a capital city to be destroyed. Also no radiation, just destruction (causes fusion, not fission). I was (probably by myself on this) disappointed to see how many lasers were in the movies. Nobody used a laser in the books between the Butlerian Jihad (10,000 years before) until ~5000 years after the Dune movie took place if I remember correctly. Part of that is because of that interaction, and part is because of how energy inefficient they were.

[@THECHEESELORD69]

@@brandonlaird6876 yeah I kid of makes sense that it took them so long to refine the lazers enough to be used on a small scale. The would also be potentially a good weapon for assassinations.

[@rockmcdwayne1710]

Watching the fight scenes in the movie i always wondered that, technically speaking, firearms could still be more effective than daggers or swrods that you must ''push'' through the shield to kill your target. Namely, if you basically shoot from point blank range, in other words, you get your gun muzzle through the shield before pulling the trigger or you must touch your target with gun muzzle before shooting! I could imagine some actual ''gun-fu'' martial art being developed!

[@skepticalbadger]

Which is exactly how cavalry pistols in the 17th century were used. You would try to literally touch the enemy before pulling the trigger.

[@ehisey]

A shark stick is probably close ti ideal sheild breacher.

[@mill2712]

Gun-kata!

[@TheZoltan-42]

1) The Duniverse shield is not like a piece of armour. You can't get through with the tip, and then suddenly be fast again. It affects matter that's in the field of the shield. Just because the tip is through, it still affects the matter behind the tip. So, no. You can do what you did in the first test. (Touch the tip and then do a "one-inch punch" style push.) 2) The crysknife doesn't have a crossguard because a shield is a death sentence on Dune. The fights there do not follow the shield combat logic. 3) The physics of shield is similar to non-Newtonian fluids. If you find the soft spot in speed, the blade penetrates it easily. One of the difficulties of that fight style is being as fast as possible to bring your blade next to the shield, but then slow down just below that threshold speed. If you are too fast, your strike will get blocked. If you are too slow, your opponent can move away. This means that movements, parry and divert actions look exactly the same as in normal combat, it's only different in the last few centimetres. Hence, how Paul ends up in the fight against Jamis (in the book). He handles routinely the fight, but every time his blade is close to Jamis, he instinctively slows his hand and Jamis gets away. The fremen take this as 'toying with Jamis'. (This detail was mostly dropped in the film, and fully replaced with his 'first kill block' that is also at play in the story.) 4) The part in shield-fight that could have been better accentuated (if the films were more focusing on book readers) is that you can use the shield to your advantage by intentionally moving toward the opponent's blade before turning off of it. Which is also part of the different fighting dynamics, and the attacker also knows about this option. One more comment: Being able to fight with different shield setups (you and opponent having or lacking shields give you four different fighting styles) is not a trivial thing. This is one reason why people trained _only_ in shield-to-shield combat are handicapped when they fight fremen in shield-to-no-shield and no-shield-to-no-shield. The fremen have practised three styles from four all their lives, while the off-worlders only know the fourth. Just my tuppence.

[@ImminDragon]

So, would Dune be justified to have fighters get stuck in the bind? You can't move quickly, so would you actually be able to get into a situation where you can't just use the normal advantages?

[@nullcypher]

I haven't watched a Shad video in a while, and the reason i decided to watch this one is that it has no clickbait in title or thumbnail.

[@lukasdebaene]

Hi shad, I recently broke my hand and had to get a cast from my hand to my elbow. I was wondering if i could use this cast to defend off knife/sword attacks (potentially arrows?). Would be an awesome test and video to see!

[@Blackmark7410]

Working as an Orthopaedic practitioner, our main material, plaster of Paris (pop), poly synthetic, Fibre glass and soft cast(as flexible form of fibreglass), unless ridiculously thick couldn't stop a stab. And as for a slash, fibre, pop and poly may all be able to take a few slashes at best while soft cast, which I can cut using a Stanley blade probably wouldn't take much at all.

[@VivaSativaMusic]

I'd be more curious to see how it would fair as a weapon! Citation needed, but I've HEARD that in the US, if you strike someone with a cast it's considered a more severe form of assault (again citation needed, but it might be considered a deadly weapon or something) as it's essentially a club attached to the arm.

[@Blackmark7410]

@@VivaSativaMusic if applied properly they aren't really that heavy, that said I have seen casts that have been applied by someone of less skill, and they are often unnecessarily thick and heavy. But if you have a broken arm, you would probably not want to go hitting people with it, unless fighting for your life, or you're insane.

[@shawn6860]

Test that cast in the Bond movie that destroyed the Dummy. See how it fairs against various armors.

[@asahearts1]

If the enemy is wearing a shield and armor, I would go for some kind of gas sprayer or pepper spray type of thing. The tooth thing shows they can pull it off.

[@winningsince1992]

The duke lived because he had on his shild while the others didnt because they didnt have on their shields

[@asahearts1]

@@winningsince1992 Ah i see. Didn't he still get really hurt, though? I haven't seen the movies but I read the original book years ago. It seems like something you shoupd be able to pull off, since part of the reason the shields let anything through is so people can breathe.

[@winningsince1992]

@asahearts1 yes but you can turn up the power of the shield not to let things in at all. Also his shield wasn't at full power in the movie. Also Herbert didn't go through full explanations of everything and stuff worked how it worked in the books often. So the shield could also have a built in system the stops harmful gases as well. Also the dune series is heavily political game of thrones type of stuff so they could simply not do gases due to political fallout

[@HeroQuestFans]

in the David Lynch version there are gas masks, face masks if not full helmets everywhere. you could say its to filter out sand or pollution (esp. on Geidie Prime) but could also be for poison gas which we know they use (the tooth!).

[@asahearts1]

Thanks for the replies, everyone!

[@kronthorwolfclaw]

I have always interpreted that the daggers and swords in the Dune universe are technologically much more advanced than those in our real world. After all, the story takes place millennia in the future, and we see them being the main weapons for close-range combat. Certainly there are specific materials and specific technologies to create blades with a much greater destructive potential than our real-life blades, therefore, I believe that these blades would easily be able to penetrate armor equivalent to chain mail and gambeson even with the slow blade. I think that only thicker and heavier armor would be able to repel these daggers. In the films, we do see some soldiers wearing more robust armor, but this same armor has its gaps for better movement and weight, and we see many soldiers being eliminated with blows precisely in those gaps that the armor does not protect, which makes a lot of sense. Furthermore, I find it interesting that many characters in the films have a combat style much more focused on agility and acrobatics, in this case, I think that a properly specialized opponent could rely solely on the force field shield to protect themselves (which is super functional), mastering techniques to protect himself from the slow blade, and focusing on agility and acrobatics that the lack of physical armor would help. So yes, even though it's not realistic, and comparable to our real-world technology and physics, I still think it's believable and makes sense within the rules of this fictional universe.

[@emsnewssupkis6453]

This never explains why projectile killing systems don't happen.

[@salixalba6536]

If you want an effective weapon against the shield try a grenade that deploys a loop of cable that tightens till it slices the person it wraps around. And if they try to drop the shield to slip out of the loop make it be able to sense that and tighten faster once the shield is dropped

[@anatineduo4289]

Nice! Shigawire

[@polishscribe674]

1. If you had a shield on top of a convencional steel armor then you're basically invincible. 2. I'm sure there's some sort of a treshold after which the shield overloads 3. It will stop the bullet, but not the physical force behind. You can still damage the brain by shooting the head.

[@moonasha]

in the dune lore there are knives/swords that can penetrate steel like butter by vibrating or being a molecule thick, I'm just not sure how distributed that technology is. Also if the shield is pushing against the whole body a bullet won't damage the head

[@polishscribe674]

@@moonasha if I hit the head, even of the projectile is stopped by the shield the force will still go into the head, causing brain damage.

[@Archaneus]

@@polishscribe674 No, it won't, because you in fact never hit the head. You are misunderstanding the concept of the shields. The shield would take the force that would be imparted to the head and absorb it, redistributing it to the entire body of the shield, effectively rendering it moot. You would in fact never impart any force at all on the head.

[@tristanbackup2536]

Nope. Shields don't overload from conventional attacks, you need a litterly nuke at point blank ground zero to rip the shields off from atomisation. That's how powerful shields are.

[@polishscribe674]

@@tristanbackup2536 and they don't run out of power in 10 minutes without being attached to some kind of at least backpack-sized battery? It's as impressive as broken.

[@Flawlessx69]

They should use barrel-less guns on a stick. Poke through the shiled with a stick. When you make contact with your target, the gun (entirely inside the shield) triggers.

[@primmakinsofis614]

Something like the bangstick used against sharks would work.

[@lewisbenzie845]

Explosives react poorly to the field See also atomics

[@Sm00k]

This honestly makes me wonder. Where does the kinetic energy that hits the shield goes? Is it dispersed over the whole volume of space protected? Does it goes directly to the emitter?

[@lolowski6826]

@@lewisbenzie845 Is that specified anywhere? From what I remember from the books, which was inaccurately portrayed in the movie. Is that when those laser lances hit the shield, that causes something akin to a nuclear explosion. So they are used sparingly and still there are some scenes in the books where stuff violently explodes somewhere in the distance. But that was my thought too, just put the gun inside of the shield and fire or have some kind of mechanism that fires when you touch your oponent or whatever. Should be way more effective than the sword fighting.

[@nolan4339]

Haha, The Gunsword to the rescue. Though it would really depend on if the bullet within the the barrel is also affected.

[@maxlamboray9780]

Hi Shad, great video as always. Just to say, I was quietly watching this video last night and as the comments weren't loading well I refreshed the KZbin page and suddenly the video was no longer available. I'm sure it's just me who was unlucky but it would be nice if the next time you experiment with the KZbin algorithm you delete the first video after or when you post the new one. It's not very serious in itself but at the time I was quite annoyed not to be able to finish a video that I had started.

[@Morriaphant]

So would spring assisted blades work better? Get past the shield, then deploy the blade?

[@daisnowsn2369]

I haven't seen the film, but if the lighting is mostly set on Araceous it could be a heat issue, or water preservation issue.

[@VegetaLF7]

Fun fact, the suits they wear actually address this. Those black suits the Fremen (the desert people with blue eyes) are wearing are called Stillsuits and are designed to retain your body's moisture while out in the desert. This helps combat the heat and dehydration you'd expect to face in a desert setting.

[@daisnowsn2369]

@@VegetaLF7 ya, but wouldn't adding extra weight or layers still add unnecessary stress, to the system?

[@thenaruto2796]

I feel like a flamethrower would be highly effective

[@wlot28]

They do use them in the films but not for actual combat strangely

[@michaelmcboomboom7473]

Yea but that’s not as cool as

[@WJS774]

Given the reaction force and how pushing the target makes it move backwards, seems like throwing him to the floor and then driving downwards into him while the floor braces him so he can't move away would be very effective. You could also apply your weight to the spike most effectively that way too.

[@nolan4339]

Ultimate weapon would probably be some kind of Man-catcher. Maybe with some sort of mechanical crushing capability.

[@THECHEESELORD69]

Or like a mech with i really tuned up shield.

[@riccardo1796]

The way they're describing the shield makes it sound like it's generating eddy currents in the blade, in which case something with super high permeability (like plastic, resin or hell, chitin) would completely bypass it

[@jsbrads1]

It’s tech from a billion years in the future, it can be inertial dampener, stasis field, air viscosity modification field, it could be an electrical field with ionizing environment or anything else…

[@dolomaticus1180]

its not the material, its all about speed of the blade that matters. You have to go fast enough to get thru (before your target moves to not get stabbed) but NOT so fast that the shield reacts. There are also hunter killer drones that bore thru the shields and shred the target inside.

[@ericsmith6394]

I'm pretty sure the characters wouldn't pass up a chance to load guns with any material that isn't blocked by a shield. Even if the material is very weak it can still be shot at high enough velocity to kill if it's wrapped in a strong material or forms the jet of a shaped charge. This is similar to how mistwalker combat works where only metal can be pushed. You just put a bit of metal on a rock knowing that the metal will be stopped but not the rock. The whole shield idea would probably fall apart if any material was immune. Even water.

[@StefanoUrsella]

Shields allow slow things to get in so that the air can get in too but what if you had Oxygen tanks so that you don't need the air to be able to come in. That would make the shield impenetrable

[@stilgar82]

Fading suns has borrowed the concept and resolved the problem by saying that the shield consumes power exponentially by the area protected so the only way to use a man-portable shield is by extending it millimeters away from your body so you can use only light clothing under a shield.

[@laurenceperkins7468]

Replace with the same thickness of hardened steel and your results will be better though... Most man-portable armor plate is only a few millimeters thick, and you don't need the layers of padding to absorb shock since the shield has already done that. So unless everyone has to wear just one layer of silk or something...

[@Gorbz]

I suppose the biggest question is - how slow is "slow"? I don't know if it is stated in the books. Slower than a laser beam? Certainly, as that is what they counter. Slower than a bullet? Probably. Slower than an arrow? Slower than a sling bullet? Slower than a punch? We are often shown it being very slow, but also that concussive force not being stopped by the shield. My only guess of short slow blades vs armour is that it gives the fighter time to angle the blade into joints and weak spots to kill with.

[@gj4312]

Slower than a sword swing. Brian Herbert makes a statement on exsct speed but that's not Frank so not canon. During Paul's sword fight with Jamis, he is slowing his blade down when approaching and holding him at knife point not only because he is hesitant to kill him, but because his training is made to work against shields and so a shiekd would stop a normal strike. "The slow blade penetrates the shield" i.e. the fast blade does not.

[@jovannygonzalez5081]

The thing is the shield are ment for hi velocity proyectiles like bullets(guns) etc. Not for close combat fighting i think... maybe it helps just a little but most attacks will still go true in my opinion since you cant compare the speed of a proyectile with a trust or slice. Sorry for my bad english btw.

[@turbonerd6552]

This feels like the slow dagger push from saving private Ryan😢

[@covahredro8370]

A pile driver spike would probably be the best weapon to use in the Dune Universe. As you could wield its slowly passed the shields to then active the spike to punch through any armor behind the shields

[@blackraven3720]

as its sci fi, you could argue that armour disrupts how the shield works for some reason, hence it becomes choice shield or armour not both

[@flaviomonteiro1414]

2:45 You even got Rabban!

[@AaronRoyal-g4e]

honestly something like a bangstick would work wonderfully

[@gyletre675]

A hammer and chisel would be kind of OP if you could make it work against those shields.

[@DemonKnight94]

I think they mean in the Books that the Blade is slower then a Gun and that's why it works.

[@maxkahlow8622]

Wouldn't something larger like a war pick be more practical? With a war pick you've got leverage, and something you can potentially block and grapple with.

[@snuffeldjuret]

my initial thoughts would be that it is not speed that is the key, but force, so I would suggest a dagger or such that makes it easier to leverage your body weight in some way. Oh yeah, explosive tip of course, explosive tip.

[@NeinBreaker]

I've always interpreted it as moving slow to get through the shield, then quickly applying killing force. Not sure if the sudden burst of movement would be halted by the shield when it's through, but I'm guessing fine motor control would be ingrained in warriors that fight with shields. And the blades could be monomolecular for all we know.

[@gregoryaraganto9378]

There is a scientific paper I read in some biology journal about a protein that could be chained together as a chainmail and was suggested that in the future it could use to stop bullets, I was just wondering how easily we can make armor in the future.

[@moshelemkin9678]

@shadiversity How about a spring loaded tip on a blade where it comes out, may be a good use for a assasins creed like weapon where the blade springs out and stabs behind the shield where it can penetrate with enough power to do good damage

[@dolomaticus1180]

Its a field, that extends up to 5 inches out, it all works on pure speed. There is no stabbing behind the shields since it from the skin to the field end. Now using a Las pistol works...just the little issue of a nuclear explosion from the reaction of the two.

[@Aven236]

That other guy with the beard is a huge smartass.

[@theprofessor7965]

While the 2000 film was cheesy and had shit effects, I liked how some of them were wearing half-plates or some metal covering of some kind. The only real minor gripe I had with the designs is how they look like mass effect characters with metal knives.

[@garengatorlope1004]

You have to keep in mind something you mentioned early on the crysknife is not only sharp but often POISONED so even a scratch is lethal

[@nicholaspratt8473]

Can you do a video on the OKC USMC 3S? aka Ontario Knife Company Marine 3s bayonet. It's most prominent feature is the "clip tip" that can penetrate body armor. Likely soft level 2 (NIJ HG1), but since that is usually said in a military context, it would be targeted towards level 4 (NIJ RF3) ceramic plates. Specifically the: Tip sharpness Anti armor capabilities (medieval and modern) edge sharpness and use as a standalone knife Hopefully it would be better than the Honshu Legionary Dagger. Seeing you guys talk about the Legionary Dagger inspired me to think about the 3S because I've been near obsession with it, recently. That Gladius style tip looks like a similar principle to the clip tip.

[@yauteth9761]

What if the shield itself helps with stabbing at slow rate and all the "magic" is in the shield itself. You would then be able to slowly penetrate the shield and it would carry the blade through with a force great enought to penetrate some level of armour. I think it could be ok when we assume it is the same magic thing that causes high speed blade to be deflected. I do not assume it is in any way phisicaly correct but for sci-fi rule it should be enought 🤔

[@Sol-Invictus]

As I remember plasteel was a material used but it's just crazy hard metal genetic sci-fi. "Pla" I'd say flexible "steel" for metal. Nothing was said of extraordinary properties.

[@f1y7rap]

If you go by the OG movie and the books, the shield protects against projectiles and energy/plasma weapons. A full speed sword swing would be blunted, but a dagger slides easily through. Also, once you are through the shield, it is negated. So if you slowly moved a pistol barrel through the shield, you can then pull the trigger and dome a mf'er

[@anderporascu5026]

I once saw a painting of an army of medieval knights marching onto a starship preparing for a crusade on a distant world. It came as a result of me researching anachronism, Brother Shad would love it. As for Dune armor, a time when you know the future has been demilitarized or forgot how to do serious combat.

[@Sartekar]

There is a book with this concept. The High Crusade Novel by Poul Anderson

[@MrGrimsmith]

Both the Atreides troops (only at the start and not during the big fight but most are only half dressed at that point) and the Sardaukar wear armour in the film. In the books it simply isn't mentioned as far as I can remember. They do have access to some odd materials (shigawire being one mentioned, fine enough to be hidden in someone's hair and still useful as a garotte) so monomolecular edges aren't out of the question.

[@CRu1687]

It's prolly more of a why we don't give our military a 100% kevlar or ceramic plate suit of armour or for that reason why don't they have like leg armour or pauldrons or gauntlets ... We know we could make them

[@Kevin-fj5oe]

They do, but probably not needed when you're as skilled as the sardaukar

[@shamrockdragon7634]

Boromir looking a little like Baron Harkonnen

[@margaretwood152]

2:12 = Yep, was thinking of this as well on a return viewing of DUNE I - this is one thing that the Filmmakers really failed to address in the Story & Lore of the Recreation of the DUNE Universe (* maybe they thought what most Film Execs. / Producers think of the Plebs & Prolls: "Most of the Audience'll be too *_SLOW_* to pick up on that kind of (3 Dimensional) _Thinking"_ )

[@CubanWriter]

I feel like the ultimate Dune weapon would be a sharp Awl. I do think Dune personalities going into combat would wear armor where practicable. I also think that the writer and moviemakers chose to ignore this so that the whole shield aspect of the story didn't need to be discarded. Apparently, people in Dune don't wear effective armor as a story conceit, and not for any logical reason. Especially once we see Sardukar (sp?) in air-conditioned armor suits THAT CAN FLOAT, one is left to wonder why not Full Plate?

[@robabram6874]

I think what they were doing is a draw cut. they would move it slowly through the shield then slice the target that is where the unparalleled sharpness comes helps

[@patrickdegenaar9495]

Great fun! two points: (i) whatever the shield, conservation of momentum needs to be maintained. Thus the person with armour will be pushed back by a velocity timesbtge ratio mass. So if the mass (e.g. bullet) is big enough and velocity high enough, the shock could still wound, even if the mass does not penetrate. (ii) It could be argued that metallic armour could interfere with the shield.

[@Dularr]

The defender will move toward the blade, using the shield to block the blade.

[@Gabiman66]

this kinda explains why they use so much of those fancy judo throws, you dont need to cut through the shield to knock someone out

[@SebaztienHawke-ci5hm]

The other kind of weapon that might work is one of the sharp repeller type things, an explosive or piston powered device that you extend, try to make contact, and at the correct pressure and once it detects it has pierced the field, it fires.

[@ZEPR0FESS0RR]

Make brass knuckle glove with powder charged tips… the you could pass your fist slowly through- then when contact is made It would essentially be 5 bullets getting shot point blank into your body

[@alikhat1647]

I don’t know the consistency of the armor in Dune, but I have a Carharrt jacket that I have patched pieces of leather on the forearms, outside of the upper arms and the back (I rabbit and raccoon hunt and regularly find myself going through briar thickets). Obviously most knives won’t cut through the jacket. That was actually true BEFORE the leather patches. That being said, I have a Kukri that was given to my grandfather by a Burmese special forces soldier in WW2. When I got the blade after he passed, it had been stored improperly and a large part of the face was covered in rust. I lived in Charleston, SC at the time, and searched out a blacksmith who was able to restore the blade for me without having to add material or reforge in anyway, and he then sharpened said blade. When I got in the car, I set the Kukri on my lap to retrieve the sheath, and just setting the blade on my lap caused it to cut through my jeans right across the edge of the blade (no slicing movement required). THAT blade will very easily slice through my jacket. I know this because while selecting the leather patches I tested various patches against various knives and objects with extreme points (hypodermic needles, rebar ground to a point, etc). I was looking for a good compromise between toughness and flexibility. Between the pieces of leather was denim that was folded over and sewn together 4 times to simulate the Carharrt material. On the toughest leather, that had very little mobility, but extreme toughness, even a chainsaw wouldn’t make it all the way through to my arm before I had a chance to move out of the way. When I tested the Kukri, it cut straight through the leather, the denim, the deer bone I was using to simulate my arm and the next patch of leather. The whole setup just fell in half. I felt minimal resistance and that was when the blade initially hit the bone. The blade is decorative and exists only to serve as a memorial to my grandfather, so aside from cleaning it, I hadn’t taken it out of its case since I returned from the blacksmith, and I haven’t used it since. I just wanted to test what was going to be my “armor” against the sharpest blade I own. Since the toughest of the armors failed, I didn’t test any of the other leather. I can report that, in combination with the pants I made, I have hunting clothing that allows me to walk through the thickest of briar thickets without getting stabbed, and in combination with my leather boots is even capable of stopping snake strikes from reaching my ankles to midway up my calf (because thats where my boots end). Yes, I’m aware of snake boots, but they aren’t something that you want to wear when you’re going to be hiking 10+ miles through variable terrain that may required climbing up the side of a sheer embankment or navigating large sections of downed and overgrown trees.

[@s.owl9]

Idk if the weapon has to move slow while penetrating; but I think it would be cooler if, once you get through the surface layer of the shield, you can accelerate it. Meaning, it only encounters resistance before it enters the shield and attacks would look like a 2 step slash or stab: swing/thrust, stop due to shield resistance, and finally, accelerate for a few more inches until contact. Also, vibrating swords, saws & drills might be the go to; maybe even some sci-fi, electro magnetized blade that can undo the magnetic bonds between atoms or something insane like that. Light can go through the shield because they can see, so what about super heated lasers? Some other ideas include straight up siege weapons that can over power the shield with sheer impact & massive explosions, hammer actuated gunpowder charge with drive pins for point blank “shots”, placing compact explosives on them during melee, aerosolized toxins, flame throwers, blow torches, electrified batons & plasma.

[@Tehstampede]

I remember reading somewhere that personal shields in Dune could slow down conventional bullets, so things like slow-pellet stunners were developed that fired projectiles which travelled substantially slower than bullets did and would punch through shields. I don't think a human could swing a sword or dagger fast enough for it to get picked up by the shield to be honest.

[@Fuzzy_Bunny5293]

A few minor lore bits. The Crysknife is described as a Kindjal which is a real world blade. Gurney Halleck notes specifically that 'there’s no artistry in killing with the tip, that it should be done with the edge,' as he is acting as an instructor we can get the idea that this is the way of thinking for other weapon/warmasters. Fremen are noted to not care how they kill with the Crysknife, so they don't care about the no tip ideology. Duncan Idaho is also a specific weaponmaster, he is a Swordmaster of Ginaz, I think his blades are supposed to show off that cultural identity, Herbert had described Duncan Idaho as having the facial feature of epicanthic folds which could be taken (and often has) as having Asian ancestry, so I felt that the film makers idea in putting that Katana style wrapping on the blade is to hint at maybe Ginaz having an Asian Lineage, especially culturally. Ginaz wasn't as well defined in the original books as the Heritage of people groups such as the Fremen who are Zen-Sunni decedents or the fact that the Atredies family trace their lineage back to the family of Atreus from.

[@Mr.Schnaps]

I left a comment about this exact issue in the last video. I also brought up why not have a small temp oxygen tank so you can make the shield fully impenetrable.

[@austinrowe5591]

A piano string type weapon may be more effective than a bladed weapon in general. For example around the neck it could be wrapped around trapping the person allowing you to generate pressure, also I would think the fighting style would naturally form into a grappling style making the piano wire a more fitting weapon than a blade

[@ShieldWife]

Everybody with the means should have high tech chain mail. What they need are crocodile spears. Crocodile spears don’t have points, but shotguns shells that activate when pushed against the croc. Something equivalent that fires when inside the shield could work.

[@sergeantbrother6940]

Maybe some kind of taser might work as well. Push through and then deliver an armor penetrating shock.

[@ThePsylopAt]

Maybe I'm imagining things, but I thought some blades and knife are actually active in the sense that when you penetrate the shield, then the blade is auto-trusting and so adding a lot of force, some might even vibrate on a counter frequency to the shield and so bypass it entirely, so even at pin point the force added by the motor of the blade is going to be lethal, and in the case where it's not (in the book at least) the it's that the target point is so accurate that's it's immediately lethal even with a tiny point of entry

[@tobiaszkukotko8655]

After slow penetrate shield by slow move (they are stoping really fast bullets so you don't have slow that much anyway) you can increase hit speed. You know, the most important phase when you straighten your elbow.

[@rippilot2113]

In the book, Paul actually trains shield combat with a rapier in the beginning. It seems like a better option than the dagger since it allows you to poke at your opponent, looking for an opening to move in slowly without having to get as close. Personally, I think the best option for melee combat would be to dual wield a rapier and dagger. Also a rapier, being a thin blade, would probably be ideal for pushing through an opponent's garments without much resistance.

[@thuzan117]

I imagine alot of the combat in Dune between enemies with shields is just going back and forth trying to get in a good hit on a weak point. It's probably a battle of endurance to an extent to see who tires out first and slips up. You kinda see this in the movie a bit with people trading hits for a fairly lengthy period of time in some scenes before finally getting in a good hit. Of course in the books these duels are described as being fairly quick since everyone is really skilled and knows how to fight against shields.

[@PossumReviews]

I think the idea is it doesn't have to be going super slow, it just needs to be going slower than a bullet. The shields stop fast-moving projectiles such as bullets, but won't stop anything moving at speeds at which humans can move so the wearer can still breathe and pick up objects, hence why people in Dune use swords and knives. But then, theoretically, you could still use a projectile weapon, it would just have to be a relatively slow projectile with a lot of mass to compensate for the lack of speed. If that's the case, they could just use slingshots and shoot rocks at each other.

[@duyvan247]

one thing I want to point out is that, while Duncan Idaho's arm movement is fast, he can control to make the blade slow, he can intentionally stop them right before it make contact with the holtzman shield, then afterwar thrust quickly after it turn red. It might be really hard to pull off such filming so they just avoid that by having actors blocking the view of the knife, but in the book, Duncan is the extremely skilled.

[@Emanon...]

Another element not utilised: Concussive weapons ie bombs and thermobaric grenades would still be extremely useful and effective in disrupting formations and possibly cause internal damage, despite the shields.

[@PhilpoBaggins]

I'd be interested to see a bowie knife comparison. There are so many different types. Which bowie knife has the most versitility.

[@jameshamaker9321]

the thing i noticed having read the books for dune, as well as watched the original tv series from the fifties, is that the slow blade is just a regular sword with no hand guard or actual pommel. that alone was problematic. what i'd like to see is, a crossover between dune and star wars, with the focus being the non energy weapons, like the Mandalorian short sword versus the famous worm tooth sword like knife looking thing. that would be hilarious, especially with the fact that the Mando's metal sword, looking like the dark saber from the legends series and not the newer disnified version.

[@TheChromeRonin]

Also future materials with nano-materials that can add nano-serations, tiny tiny ways to make the blade cut armour. Also we. have looked at swords against chain, and you wind to bind up links, then break them with the thrust..But look at what weapons are used anti-armour, poleaxes with a crushing claw or armour piercing beak, the estoque, rondel daggers, ice picks. 8)

[@RiverRockRecords]

Paying for REAL LIFE BULLETS BY THE THOUSAND would be cheaper than these Pixels.

[@shinobiighost6946]

Once you get through the shield it seems you can strike as you please, when it comes to armor I noticed we saw a lot of take downs that would enable sliding into armor gaps as well as neck slashes (we see a lot of neck slashes). Its not purely about the tool it's also about how well you use it. Im pretty sure we'd see a lot of knock downs followed by a jump on the opponent to finish them off.

[@jacobharris954]

The fighting style is based on real fma style called balinwantak. Which far modern and update than H.E.M.A

[@magickmynd1296]

From what I've seen of Dune combat I see a lot of fighters targeting the helmets and neck areas of most of the sardaukar warriors since they tend to wear helmets with glass fronts or the "armor/suits" don't have thick enough coverage around the neck. Even on the slow grapples where someone is steadily pushing a blade through the shield they are usually targeting the neck or eyes. In personal combat inside bases and things like that You never see anyone wearing any kind of armor, it's always clothing of some kind or at max a suit, and all the suits seem fairly flimsy. Outside fighting you only see the stillsuits or the sardaurkar suits, which don't seem to have any kind of armor and are just suits, probably because of the sandy areas heavy armor would cause you to sink into the sand and make it harder to move around while also making you sweat more. We really only ever see combat on Dune itself and not on other planets, so we can't really be sure what they wear when not on Dune. As for projectile weapons, we do see things in at least the original film with weapons that have some kind of continuous thrust where they slow down to get through the shield and then the thrust speeds up once past the shield to make the penetrating speed/force necessary, so it's not like they have no projectile weapons at all. It's also mentioned in the literature that they don't use the shields all the time. The personal shields only ever seem to be used on elite warriors or nobles, so they cant be equipped to every rank and file soldier, not to mention that the shields make the worms go crazy and attack recklessly, so they can't use them in the open desert either.

[@redmaxremington209]

holtzman shieldIn: the object’s speed while passing through the shield typically ranges from six to nine centimeters per second. (maybe this tip might help in your math equation and such

[@MrJinxmaster1]

The crysknife is not for shield combat, shields are worse than thumpers for drawing worms to you so in the desert there are no shields and strong armour would be too heavy to integrate into a stillsuit without substantially reducing water economy. Hence why the fremen have a strong honour system when it comes to settling disputes with violence and a guerilla system for dispatching outsiders.

[@nemoexnuqual3643]

Maybe there is some mechanism which causes the shield to not work properly??? Like the shield generator is spacing itself off the skin like a capacitance censor such as are used in touch screens.

[@JacobDudlicek]

Who makes that silver dagger that went in so easily? Its so good looking!

[@dragonninjarpg4906]

So what I found and interpreted on the dune wiki is with personal shields depending on the settings on the shield anything moving 10-6 centimetres per second would penetrate the shield then while passing through the shield be slowed down to 9-6 centimetres per second.

[@matthewwriter9539]

With the exception of an episode of Star Gate: SG-1 where force fields block fast moving bullets, yet not slow moving arrows...with the exception of that, faster blades are always better than slower moving blades.

[@steven-patricktownsend1476]

I see your point but imho thats not the whole picture. Lets have a look how this might evolved historically: Opponent1: „Look at this new invention! I call it a SHIELD and with that and my armor, your projectile weapons can‘t hurt me. Only slow moving objects can penetrate it. And a laser will cause an atomic explosion and kill us both!“ Opponent2: „I see. Well, that‘s a bumper. See, I have now a shield, too.“ Op1: „Hm, we hit a dead end here, didn‘t we?“ Op2: „Seems so. But you gave me an idea…“ Op1: „Why you’re taking your armor off?“ Op2: „So I‘m faster and more agile than you.“ Op1: „So what? Gonna try and slap me to death?“ Op2: „No, gonna try and slap this little sticky handgranate on you back.“ Op1: „Ehh, uhhh…“ Op2: „Shall we start?“ Op1: „Wait! I got rid of my armor, too. Now I can dodge your sticky thingy! Op2: „Good thinking, well done. But let me ask you something: Can you dodge this knife as well?“

[@Krushhk]

Having not seen the new movie and barely remembering the first one, nor read the books, I'm assuming the shields are kinetic energy based, something like the shields the goauld use in sg1 which can stop staff weapon fire and bullet fire, but a thrown knife is moving considerably slower than a energy weapon or a bullet.