Shadow of the Erdtree is Dark Souls 4

[@jermergerg]

How was your Shadow of the Erdtree experience? Let me know below!

[@samuelbrown7466]

Loved it, on the note of relana, I understand your idea of comparing pontiff but relana can be beat without parrying so I very much prefer her, pontiff will relentlessly eat you alive if you don’t at least have a shield, but on Romina and midra you are right I didn’t even notice qualag looking nearly identical in terms of movement meshes. As for radahn, I didn’t see to much issue with him other then the obvious blinding attacks but if I’m honest his whole kit except a single move are all the most fair moves I’ve ever fought, the one attack that has an issue? Strangely I never see anyone talking about his lead up strikes to the shockwave twin strike, those 2 back to back swings from hoisting his sword, it can’t be dodged blocked parried or even get this vow of the indomitable doesn’t even work, if you are near him when he does this attack you are taking one of those 2 swings no matter what because they also don’t have a turn radius limit (I have had radahn launch himself behind me while I was behind him it’s that bad)

[@samuelbrown7466]

Yet I never saw a single person say that attack is annoying even though I guarantee it’s caused 90% of deaths and it’s just 2 basic swings

[@BBQcheese]

I just want to apologize for being annoying idk if you were talking about me in the part where you mentioned people being obnoxious in your comments but I don't wanna be that guy so I'm sorry if I was ever bothersome.

[@jermergerg]

@@BBQcheese Definitely not you bro!!!!!!!

[@JoeNeutrino]

On the comparison between Midir and Bayle, Midir is crazed and corrupted whereas Bayle is violent and brutal but intelligent. I think those traits are expressed well by their animations.

[@antobatta1551]

The director of the DLC also designed Ringed City and Ashes of Ariandel

[@grayestrat]

As someone who has killed Midir 540 days in a row, I really appreciate dragon talk at the beginning. Great video! I was already subbed but have a like! Also Rellana might be my favorite boss they've ever made.

[@BBQcheese]

I can't hitless her with low damage... I have about 8+ hours practicing and I can't do it. Some of her moves line the uppercut are just too fast for me but I still love the boss and I agree with this she's definitely a contender for my favorite as well.

[@grayestrat]

@BBQcheese took me almost 12 hours to hitless at rl1 ng+7. Took 13 to do that without blessings so keep practicing lol

[@grayestrat]

@flucke1000 🙇‍♂️ 🍻

[@BBQcheese]

​@@grayestrat Thanks man hopefully I can do it I live the boss but I'm 58 years old and maybe I just don't have the reaction speed anymore...

[@grayestrat]

@@BBQcheese I think once it's ingrained into muscle memory you'll get it. I'm a weed guy so my reaction time isn't great either but like Malenias double slash, it will eventually become a natural reaction. The only 2 of rellana attacks that require quick reaction are the 3 hit combo that starts with the fast left handed uppercut... and the combo that starts with a (quick) thrust attack usually done from neutral. Grant it those 2 attacks do come out stupid fast and I hate them, I believe they can be instilled in you lol Keep in mind both of these attacks come out with her left hand

[@carlschrappen9712]

For me, what stands out about SotE boss design compared to DS3 and even base ER, is the trend of the first phase introducing some melee attacks, and the second phase introducing complementary bullets to force you to adjust your positioning. It's the main gimmick of Dancing Lion and Consort Radahn, but Bayle and Rellana also do it to a lesser extent. I think it's an interesting direction for the bosses in these games, and I hope they continue to evolve it in further titles.

[@milesmonacothesequel2294]

This video takes a stupid debate and comparison, and with it, makes one of the most intelligent analysis of boss design I've ever seen

[@jermergerg]

thanks!

[@samuelbrown7466]

@@jermergergI believe his lordship miles was thanking you sire, as we all do. Thank you for your knowledge!

[@Luxuriouswhite]

Ive said the DLC bosses remind me of DS3 more than base game does and people have called me insane. Glad im not the only one to think so

[@Meese12]

Messmer and midra feel pulled straight out of the second half of ds3

[@Stangrex]

-Promised Consort has a Pontiff combo in his phase 2. -Rellana has moves "inspired" from Malenia, Maria, Pontiff and Abyss Watchers. -Abyssal Woods is pretty much the cut DS3 area called "God's Grave". Originally it was the location of the Demon Prince (one phase and lesser moveset and named Crimson Bat then, glad they moved it to the DLC) and Oceiros.

[@CPAgamer313]

Ds3 invasions are peak fromsoft

[@amcname8789]

I'd say a common trend among dlc bosses alongside branching combos is delays among singular combos that at first feel like breaks between whole attacks. Midra's double spin swing, delayed levitate and triple spin caught me a lot at first, because it's such a large gap in one move.

[@grayestrat]

I LOVE crouching under that move

[@leadfaun]

I used to be the biggest defender of DS3’s combat, but ER added complexity that I felt it needed. So it surprised me to see people - including some of the biggest Souls channels - complaining that the combat wasn’t exactly like DS3. I’m sure Fromsoft is VERY confused about what the community wants.

[@JoseViktor4099]

Something more complex means that, on the flipside, would be that is harder to get into, but I'll add my to cents in order to give a better fleshed out explanation: This Game makes a "low skill floor, high skill ceiling" take from Boss fights. They are harder to get into by normal methods, and even if you can play It like with DS3 moveset, the Game ask you to do more things akin to DS3 DLC bosses. So you start to learn about positioning, then jumping, then attacks combination, then just running instead of rolling, and understand the combat much better. You can also though, explore the open world, get better equipment, and very likely, destroy the bosses without the need of knowing how to deal the bosses. So the assumption for Some people would be "They made bosses balanced around overleveling, and/or certain kind of equipment (normally summons)" . And then the endgame comes, and then the DLC not long after, which makes you more dependant of your skills rather than overleveling. So you get all the critiques.

[@milesmonacothesequel2294]

I like what some of the mechanics in Elden Ring encourage, but I feel like the game also tries to scare players away from using them, and it feels counteractive, at least for new players. Most people will spend their first playthrough scared of aiming for posture breaks, unless they're using the heaviest weapon known to man. It's rewarding to get a posture break, but even at the start of the game it is easy to look for the biggest openings and then spend minutes running away. I would say this is more a problem with the learning curve, but if there is a game this doesn't fit as well, it would be Elden Ring.

@@JoseViktor4099 to be fair, not all critiques come from people who can’t cheese anymore complaining (thought they certainty exist and are probably numerous). I’m doing my rl1 0 blessing run trying to no hit all the bosses and I have plenty of issues with the dlc. I don’t think you have to be a shitter to take issue with certain design choices and trends. Sure, there most certainly are people who are mad cause bad, but I feel like that is a reductive approach. Even bad players can offer valid criticism (though admittedly not all the time. Probably not most of the time.)

[@JoseViktor4099]

Oh wait, I was a bit weirded out because I saw that you had no name. In my experience, 70% all critiques I disagree with with came from genuine skill issue, and they acted very bad when someone asked "had you tried doing Y instead of X?". Yet, I agree with some of the criticism, specially directed to the final boss fight, same as some very questionable attacks. Although I would not atribute that for a boss design, because I would disagree that ER boss design is meant to have unavoidable attacks, yk?

[@Eo-ms3kw]

I like having more combat options through jump attacks and crouch attacks but I don't like how complex the bosses are. It just takes so long to learn them that I don't get any satisfaction out of it. I don't get much enjoyment out of the fight itself just out of beating it with the only exception being Midra which is the most ds3 boss in the game.

[@JoseViktor4099]

I think that the best videos are the ones that leaves me thinking instead of straight up agreeing or disagreeing. For the debate discussion, I indeed believe as well that us both sides are putting our grain of sand into making that the games look much worse on this. Complaining and exagerating diferents elements just for the sake of being different, ignoring that both belongs to their own niche. This debate was made two months after ER release, and im getting more and more tired of this, and probably a lot more people as well. My guess that ER fans backfired because how tiresome must had been hearing "ER has poor combat because is hard" for almost a year, and DS3 fans eventually as well for how tiresome must be to hear "DS3 has mid combat, but everyones give it a pass because is easy". I think the best thing , at least I could do, is to leave this debate behind. Doesn´t benefit anybody, and only makes the community much less pleasening to participate. I was surprised though, on the big influence DS3 has on the DLC. Very interesting.

[@amrmans2]

Yeah I agree. I'm currently making a video trying to spread my perspective on the matter

[@ronthorn3]

@@amrmans2I’m soooo tired of the difficulty debate online, my god, nobody is saying anything new either, just repeating the same shit over and over.

[@MeesaBack]

14:50 very well said to conclude the video. I haven't played DS3 yet but it is interesting to see the comparisons and how DS3 bleeds into ER so the gameplay almost becomes DS4-like. The most obvious example is Midra and Nameless King - someone pointed out to me - he's almost like a spiritual successor to Nameless. But yeah there are certain things I will look out for when playing like this Dragonslayer and Bayle comparison - very interesting. Couple of other itneresting examples like Dancer and Rellana. Romina and Aldrich. Great video dude!

[@Jbswe]

Why are you even making this comment when you haven’t even played ds3 bruh

[@afterbyrner]

ER & SotE feels like an improvement built on a solid foundation you cannot have one without the other. FS have had clear progression in each game iteration. The ability to change AoW's and change affinities like Bleed / Cold is without a doubt my favourite mechanic it makes every weapon feel viable. It adds a versatility that I have not experienced in a FS game before. This adds to the depth of combat with mixing between finding windows for charged heavies with jumping heavies to break stances while adding AoW's to support. ER was the only game I did a RL1 / SL1 run on and it felt achievable to me because I had so many tools at my disposal. This is after walking away from the game for months after feeling swamped by the bosses but I had to reset my approach it wasnt the games fault.

[@reneclovercinecritica7269]

idk, I still think SotE is a lackluster experience, but I would definitely love to see more of these comparisons as I think they're very educational. Thanks for the content

[@StarDDDude]

This was one of the best video-essays I've watched in quite a while And I am saying this after watching this directly after Jacob Gellers fantastic "Nothing ever Stops existing" (I believe Jacob Gellers Essays to be the gold standard) I feel like it is hard to find really good video essays nowadays, they often span an immense amount of time just to claim their opinion to be factually right, with editing so basic I wish they bothered to just release the script as a blog post instead. (Was being a little hyperbolic there, but the Titles of those videos are usually 50 times more hyperbolic) I love this essay because while it isn't the 5 part menu of a Jacob Geller essay, you manage to go through all statements you wanna make without wasting any time. And while the editing also isn't godlike, you have actual footage of what you are talking about and it is appropriately slowed down and annotated. I wish there were more simple essays like this. Ones that don't try to be a 6 hour movie and just state their thoughts plainly with good pacing. (And I've also got a shitton of thoughts written down on Eldenring and SotE but I had to split that up because KZbin didn't wanna let me comment such an insanely massive comment, hooray)

[@StarDDDude]

Now overly long game thoughts: I had a blast with Eldenring I sadly don't know my thoughts exactly anymore as I didn't write a diary for that game. But I still remember how happy I was to see the switch-ups from Gael return, even if less intensely. Though that makes sense as it is a large part of Gaels identity as a Human. Just as real human players have the ability to switch their attack pattern up, so does Gael. I really liked that metaphoric piece of his moveset, especially as it can be really fun to dodge and find your counter to the different possibilities. But it's of course not like that's the only thing Eldenring Bosses have going for them. Malenia is a great example of Fromsoft putting A LOT into a boss. I think the main thing which sets Malenia apart from other bosses (other than her lifesteal) is how hard she is to read. When I am talking about "reading" I am talking about he difficulty of figuring out what you have to do. Usually Fromsoft Bosses are very easy to read: You see swing, you roll, Done. But in Malenias case you actually have to figure out that most of her approaches can't hit you when you properly space yourself. Her countless slashes might be scary, but if you're 5 meters away you will often only have to roll towards her once for a good good conter. I think a reason why many people have an issue with her design is because they never figured out a way to beat her. They might have the executional skill to beat any Boss. But they lack the reading skills to figure out a solution to her fight. And that's something I think this game kind of failed. Eldenring has a large expansive overworld, but to let the player focus on exploration this overworld is relatively easy, not tasking the player with many interesting enemy placements. And the difficulty of this overworld gets dragged into the few legacy dungeons as well. With that the game ends up with 2 different difficulty curves, not much unlike Sekiro. One difficulty curve of enemy encounters, and one of Boss Battles. And when people encountered Malenia, this already large gap between bosses and enemies was widened by a REALLY hard to read fight. One more thing before DLC: Radagon is a freaking perfect final Boss. I love the insanely ballsy move of Fromsoft to make the main thing that makes this boss stand out be the fact he gets harder the less HP he has. It's such a basic premise that is at the core of the history of Boss battles, yet I have never seen it executed so flawlessly as with Radagon. Truly, just a perfect final battle.

[@StarDDDude]

With the DLC happening, I really hoped for more Legacy dungeons and interesting enemy placements, such as the 3 lovely big Bois in Ringed City destroying any attempts at calmly listening to Midir Lore. But I got very little. There's only ~5 rather short ones and in terms of difficulty and enemy placement they certainly don't hold up to previous DLCs.... BUT OH GOODNESS THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT'S NOT SMOOTHLY DONE While the janky difficulty curve between Dungeon and Boss persists, it's not like that's the only aspect of a game. Something I could barely appreciate on my SotE Playthrough is how perfectly the dungeons are integrated into the Open World of the DLC. They might be short, but they deliver really good diversity in their exploration. I did watch 2 friends play through the start of the DLC (basically watched booth of them up to Divine Beast). Something I found extremely fascinating is how differently they managed to explore the dungeon in comparision to me. All 3 of us took slightly different paths and found things in slightlly different order. And that's one of the more linearly placed dungeons. The really good map design is Shadow Keep. Shadow Keep really feels like it should be part of a far larger game, it is nearly a Hub of the overworld. There's 2 ways to get into it and around 5 out of it. I was hoping for a hard tough dungeon, but what I got was so much more interesting. And because my wrong focus I sadly didn't go through it in the perfect way. I went through it till I founf my first boss (Radahn soldier guy), then went back because I thought I missed something, and was surprised to find the path to rauh, and later just walk into Messmers room. All while thinking I was just catching up on some optional niceties of the dungeon. And that wasn't everything, I had to go back 3 times after glimpsing through guides because I still missed entire exits of the dungeon. Shadow keep might've let me down on my first impression hoping for a tough dungeon. But goodness that map design is something I will never forget and makes it to one of my favourite legacy dungeons Fromsoft has ever done. Truly worthy of Fromsoft DLC quality. the bosses are a bit of a special case, though I loved most of them. First off I don't like Rellana much. Cool attacks but I reached her with Morgotts Greatsword before the patch, meaning I made way too little damage. Then I explored a few days, checking back some times to check up on how much damage I make. In the end I beat her by exploring till I could see the other side of the fog wall and reading that she has a strength against blood loss appearently. Why are there 0 resources on strengths and weaknesses in Fromsofts titles? It is especially annoying as the only external wikis are the very sketchy fandom wiki, and the somehow even more sketchy Fextralife wiki. Other than Rellana I am so amazed by the bosses I should not dare to go into too much detail because then I'd spend another hour writing this. The only issues I just wanna "briefly" mention are: - Please fix the camera fromsoft, I know the animations do a fantastic job at placing the head next o my blade. But when every second boss has such fancy camera-abusing animations such as Midir and Gael, issues with the camera become far more likely just because of hoiw often it happens (booth Divine Beast and Bayle really annoyed me because I could barely see anything, and after learning which roll direction doesn't mess up the camera they are now some of my favourite boss fights in all of gaming) - Please make Boss Hitbox bigger or my sword hitbox bigger. I don't care if it can look a little unrealistic, I don't like my 2 meters sword not hitting radahn sometimes because hit Balls are so thicc he has to spread his legs 2.000000001 meters apart. - Divine beast Dancing dragon and Rellana scaling is a bit too high, am happy about the patch, but still think that Rellana is a bit too healthy - Fix double hitbox-hits. Please I just wanna get hit by a single hitbox instead of loosing 80% of my health because 2 hit me in the same frame (Radahns meteors can lead to this in a very showable way, and booth Midra and rellana have 1 attack each that seems to really like hitting you with 2 Hitboxes in the same frame doing twice the damage expected). (Just wanna mention that double hitbox-hits and cameras are extremely hard to fix issues. There's probably like 80 GDC talks on cameras and we still don't know how to do these monsters properly) As for he bosses of the DLC, when I encountered Messmer I actually had the insane idea of making myself the bosses a lot more challenging. I was excited for messmer since the first trailer, they build up a lot of hype for that boss and I did a lot more damage that I'd hope to. Especially after my 6 Hour fight against a pretty early Bayle I wanted to spend more time with Messmer. So I decided to pull him off with my nostalgic first Souls weapon that carried me through DS1. The Halberd. I still had one in my inventory... and it was at +11. Yeah I beat messmer with Scadutree Lvl10 with a Halberd +11. I love this fight to the death. The first phase is already a perfect execution of combos with perfect punish and heal windows. It was extremely fun to learn that phase while making like 600 Damage. But the second phase puts such an amazing spin on the first. As is usual with Ph2 in Eldenring, Messmer is more aggressive. But his new attacks aren't just some new comboes like with Malenia. No his new Attacks spawn a massive snake and do the fancy camera abuse. It turns the fight from a calm spear-fight against a cruel fanatic, into a battle that really showcases the heresy which Marika saw in Messmers snake. The sudden snake attacks thank spin your camera by 180 Degrees to the other side of the room feel so rough and horrifying. It's insanely overpowering. I've also never had these camera movements get genuinely in the way as they did with Big Bosses like Finger Mom, Divine Dragon, Bayle and radahn. The temporary horror-camera from the attacks manages to be purely expressive and never get in the way. And now a all the Radahn appreciation I can muster at 3am while way too sleepy: Boss is hard, but actually extremely fair I love how the main thing about this Boss it your rolling direction The first phase makes it clear your rolling direction is important, those secondary swings aren't just normal follow ups, the direction of your first roll changes when exactly your second roll has be timed. And with the right rolling directions you can make the pretty tough timings a little easier on you. But in the second phase, this boss now starts spawning lasers on these swings, which now means your rolling direction has to be a specific one so the lasers do not catch you in the combi. I think the main failure of this boss is how hard to read the lasers are. Because when I am in kissing range of Radahns kneecaps so I can reliably hit him, my camera assumes the position of one of the dead bodies looking straight up at Radahns Balls. And that makes it really hard to make out which direction is the safe one to roll into. But after 14 hours and 51 minutes I got a run at Scadutree Lvl 13 with a few more HP buffing Talismans and Morgotts Great rune I managed to beat him and actually figured out what rolling directions are the proper ones. was an abolute blast I cerainly overdid it with challenge on this DLC but I now know I really like Fromsoft Bosses long. In comparision to other games the Boss battles by Fromsoft manage to squeeze a lot in what is usually a 4-6 Minute fight. And I honestly like them a little longer, meaning I will keep my weapons a little weaker so the battles have a greateer endurance aspect. However, that which I don't put into strength, I will absolutely put into HP. I wanna be able to still have another shot at dodging an attack after getting hit extremely hard. As it stands I think it's a little too easy to die to the Bosses. Maybe that's an effect of fromsoft making more combo-attacks instead of individual swing-attacks yet not adjusting the damage output of individual swings so to make the comboes as punishing as an individual swing was beforehand. I just find the bosses a little too punishing for their battle duration of 4-6 minutes.

[@swauseguy9911]

how did this debate go under my radar?? Ive always thought everybody agreed withj the sentiment for the most part, that both games are differently good.

[@jermergerg]

consider yourself blessed

[@derpoi]

My hot take is that elden ring has just as good or superior remembrance bosses to ds3, its an evolution of ds3 difficulty by giving bosses more roll catches through delayed attacks and comboes which are punishing poor skill in rolling like panic rolling or rolling in the wrong directions, most of us just havent got used to it yet, i bet when ds3 first released, people that are ds1 fans were ripping it apart for being too fast. Messmer is the best one, Malenia is the most controversial one and for a good reason. OST-wise, DS3 absolutely sweeps though.

[@lysandergorisch1969]

There is also trend that keeps me from enjoying the remembrance bosses more than DS3, namely overly long and tedious combos. This was not a problem with Sekiro to me because Sekiro is engaging your with parries which i always found awkward to play in DS . Recently played Lies of P and i think i finally get why i hate bosses like Malekith, Dodging is a way less interesting and engaging mechanic than blocking and ER is overly reliant on this mechanic. To me this was not a problem in DS3 but with combos taking up half a minute from a time to time the bossfights feel artificially stretched like old bubblegum. Hope the next game finds engaging new mechanics to add to fights which make defensive gameplay more interessting. ER was lackluster in that regard.

[@ronthorn3]

@@lysandergorisch1969parrying >rolling/blocking

[@liszt646]

Ah yes, Commander Gaius and Skibidi Avatar, top From bosses of all time Messmer and Midra slaps though. And it's crazy that Bayle is not a remembrance boss

[@theholypopechodeii4367]

@@liszt646 scadutree avatar is a great boss

[@liszt646]

@@theholypopechodeii4367 not worthy of being a remembrance boss like Godfrey, Maliketh, Placidusax, Malenia and many others. Some of the remembrance bosses of this DLC look like secondary bosses lol. The only ones that really feel like main bosses are Dancing Lion, Messmer, Midra and Bayle (which ironically is not a remembrance boss)

[@frozen_jf]

Elden Ring was my first FS game. I recently started my first DS3 playthrough and I noticed a lot of similarities in both boss movesets and mob movesets. It makes me appreciate the games more because I get the sense of them taking something and refining it throughout their games.

[@Itzzdayday]

I hate seeing the comments of KZbinrs that played Elden ring first and then turn back and try ds3. The comments are so salty that they get through ds3 easier than they did and Im just sitting there like bro they literally saw these move sets in Elden ring why are you mad.

[@lysandergorisch1969]

Cool, you will find in some ways DS3 is even better than ER, you can look forward to actually good gankfights and the quality of the bosses is very consistent. DS3 was my first and i still love it alot more than most other From Soft Titles.

[@frozen_jf]

@@lysandergorisch1969 I can definitely see that yeah. I still think ER is my favourite because I love the open world aspect a lot more. I find it to be more fun, especially in terms of challenge runs. But DS3 is now my second favourite game of all time and I haven't even finished it yet 😂 I'm still fumbling around in Grand Archives

[@lysandergorisch1969]

@@frozen_jf Ah cool, there are still alot of great bosses you can look forward to. And the DLCs too. I like the Open World aspect too but there is something to be said about that moment in DS when you are out of estus and the next bonfire is nowhere to be found and you need to make the decision if you safe your souls or go ahead in hopes of the next bonfire. Had that in Elden Ring only in Stormveil as i recall. Also keep a look out there are alot of secret passages to discover, but they are alot more hidden than you might think.

[@Itzzdayday]

@@lysandergorisch1969 I agree I love not knowing if I’ll make it to the next bonfire or not before I die😂 the perfect balance of locking in and surviving or dying and raging. I love it.

[@Wilhelmthewide]

Haven't seen the video yet, probably gonna watch it 30 minutes from now. But I would like to say 1 thing. Your new profile picture is awesome. 👍

[@jermergerg]

thanks! I've been having some fun with photoshop haha

[@Wilhelmthewide]

Now that I've seen the video I would like to say a few things. Elden Ring was my first Fromsoft game, but Dark Souls 3 is the third Fromsoft game I played. Elden Ring is my second favorite Fromsoft game and Dark Souls 3 is my favorite, though I haven't finished Sekiro yet so it might change. Great games, each flawed. I really like the Aldrich fight for some reason, maybe it has something to do with him being the second hardest boss on my first playthrough. Romina is one of my favorite bosses in the dlc, and you pointing out that Romina is built off of Aldrich might be a part of why I really like that fight. Promised Consort Radahn's beams of light serve the same purpose as Slave-Knight Gael's cape, just more punishing, and blinding. The lore of the dlc reminded me of Dark Souls in general, Putrescent Knight, Rellana, Gaius, Scadutree Avatar, ect, all have a few items that mention them. The dlc is the greatest thing Fromsoft has created thus far, though not my favorite. Actually, nothing made by Fromsoft is my favorite, Dark Souls 3 is my second favorite game of all time, and Hollow Knight is my favorite and the reason I played Elden Ring. Elden Ring is my third favorite, dlc included. Conclusion. There is none.

[@ronthorn3]

Sekiro is the best game of all time.

[@egordon7543]

Bayle is like that scaleless dragon from ds1 forgot the name, born without immortality scales, betrayed his ppl etc

[@konstantino2009]

bayle is way worse than seath

[@egordon7543]

@@konstantino2009 he’s still the closest reference

Hearing someone refer to seath as “that scaleless dragon from ds1” makes me feel old as shit.

[@liszt646]

You mean lore-wise? Cause Seath is a shit boss 😂

[@egordon7543]

@@liszt646 ofc lore 😭

[@user-pn4px5lr8w]

Yeah, it's cool to find those traces of the game used in an entirely different context. There was a vague familiarity, despite that different context and it was refreshing to see a video like this after being inundated with so much bad faith arguments on either far end of this dodcussion.

[@jermergerg]

What other influences do you guys see in the boss design in SOTE? A commenter previously made some great points about the imprint of Bloodborne I didn't have space to incorporate. Let me know in the comments!

[@JoseViktor4099]

@@jermergerg Of course, this is insanely evident because It was seen a lot on the base Game as well, but there are a lot of Sekiro influences on Elden Ring combat as a whole. For attacks that incentivice jump avoiding, from the famous posture break mechanic which seem like an staple now on every enemy design. I also Heard (but I have no confirmation whatsoever, so if someone knows about this ) that posture damage per attack increases when the enemy has less health.

[@Ghorda9]

@@JoseViktor4099 seriously doubt that health has any effect on posture, nothing and no one has indicated or talked about it and we already know what the numbers are.

[@SirTotallyCooki]

Dark Souls 2²

[@LunaDuels]

Thank you! I have been saying the same thing about the dlc being like a ds4 for me.

[@salazer_]

Really good vid

[@jermergerg]

thanks!

[@laurencetate7142]

Just completely forgot about new Londo ruins in shadow keep

[@JellyJman]

I think Dark Souls 3 is the worst of the trilogy and Elden Ring fixed so many of the problems I had with Dark Souls 3. Magic and faith builds are good again, shields are good again, and you don't have to abuse s to win against each boss. Truly fixed so many issues of Dark Souls 3 and was actually a good game that brought back poise and was not just a R1 spamming game like Dark Souls 3. The bosses are also a good time

[@jellydamgood]

Dark souls as a series is done and ended on a relatively high note with ds3. The day they make a ds4 is the day you know from is probably not doing so great anymore and is just cashing in on nostalgia.

[@deuterium2718]

for some reason my first playthrough of SoTE had me thinking of DS2 more than anything, just faster and more refined, the tech wasn't quite there yet for flowy & choreographed fights so DS2 still felt a bit turn based and stiff

[@stroopwafel3612]

There are only so many ways they can innovate with the ''Dark Souls 3'' combat. Dark Souls 3 itself was a variety of Bloodborne mixed with Dark Souls combat. Back then there was also criticism that the bosses and their wind-up animations were too fast and unpredictable without the BB type quick-step and parry mechanic. The combat in Elden Ring improves on this formula but is stil basically DkS 3. The issue is now that there are a lot more similar games to compare ER's combat too, including From's own Sekiro. DkS3 when it was new didn't really have that competition. There was also a tedium to ER's bosses because of their long movesets and the combat not allowing for fun defensive play. In DkS3 bosses like Dancer and Nameless King were the exception while in ER they are the rule. It makes the rolling through i-frames even more central to the combat even if this is the part where there have been so many innovations and improvements in the interim between DkS3 and ER. While still fun it does make the combat, and espescially the boss fights, in ER feel a bit dated. From's talent however is to elevate this with incredible art design.

[@Ghorda9]

rolling is actually less important than DS3 because it's terrible against lots of attacks and uses more stamina than jumping or just being in the right place at the right time

[@user-pn4px5lr8w]

I stopped feeling the sense of tedium when I stopped putting all my stock on the roll, and put more weight on the jump, and the classic strafe. Also using more than just R1, cuz some attacks, especially jumping, when using R2, can let you duck under attacks, making attacks whiff your hurtbox, maintaining tempo. I love DS3, but you sont really get as significant a reward with toying with your moveset that you couldn't just get with an additional R1 or something. It's my favorite of the trilogy, but there are things I do not miss on revisits, and that's a crucial aspect.

[@nulls5408]

All games are good, with each having their strengths and weaknesses. And that’s why each game has its own dedicated community around it. I will say though, it’s been funny to see with the release of the ER’s dlc that the game is currently being devoured by souls KZbinrs. Eclipsing any content that can’t match them, with those that can either not getting in the way or actively helping us. (I’ve even seen pvp start to have a resurgence) If things continue as they do, this game really is just going to be dark souls 4 (ds2 - 2).

[@jonsmith6331]

The complaint I hear the most and which I think is valid is that the changes an average player will have to attack and do damage is simply not enough relative to boss health and boss damage output. This has worsened through the series. Every boss is pressuring me like King of Puppets phase two or worse from lies of P. But Elden Ring has so many potential play styles and so many ways to have a build that is essentially worthless against say Radhan that it forces once to consult a guide. I don’t recall that in Dark Souls 3. I fought most of those bosses fair and square. That’s all people want. Half a second more to attack a boss. Let me trade a few blows rather than get 2 shotted at an appropriate level and good armor.

[@HumanThe22nd]

I remember being completely hyped for bayle because midir was and still is my favorite dragon boss (and probably one of my favorite bosses in general). I think the attacks most like midir other than the arm swipe are the bite attack combos. Both the attack where he starts with the slam and then lounges with his chompers and the double bite attack both have a more sudden and as you put it "staccato" (actually kinda like that analogy as a music enjoyer) feeling to it. Especially when he does the follow up where he tried to headbutt you and do the sudden fire breath.

[@jason2841]

I'm very much on the side of DS3 in this comparison, but I don't think Elden Ring is bad in any way. I don't care for the delays, but switching to a light build and a weapon with better reach (Nagakiba) has made them far more tolerable. In my opinion, the biggest issue I had with Elden Ring, specifically the bosses, was the soundtrack. Don't get me wrong, there were some fantastic tracks in ER, but most of them seemed so...forgettable. None of the tracks were bad, but most didn't stand out as good either. DS3 had a shitload of great boss tracks that brought me back time and time again, and made the fights more exciting and immersive. I'm currently replaying the DLC for ER just to see if I overlooked something or if those amazing tracks were just overshadowed by the complexities of the boss movesets, and having just beaten Messmer again, I can safely say that my original impression seems pretty spot on so far. Godrick, the Dancing Lion, and Elden Beast have exceptional soundtracks. Mohg and Radagon are good. Everything else has been pretty forgettable by comparison to DS3.

[@jermergerg]

Completely agree that the soundtrack in DS3 was unmatched. Twin Princes and SKG as well as the home screen music are just such absolute bangers. I actually discussed them a bit in the first video essays I ever made on the channel!

[@Jbswe]

I’m on the opposite I played ds3 so much and I find almost all the songs blend together and I don’t remember 99% of them unlike ds1 I remember all of them and elden ring has by far way more variety ost then ds3 especially the dlc clears it easily

[@guillaumeinjjuz1744]

I used to love dark souls 3 but since elden ring I cant play it anymore

[@scarsch1286]

Completely missed the point of the video and the comments section smh 🤦‍♂️

[@ActualPandaa]

If it were really dark souls 4… they would add covens

[@austin0_bandit05]

I think everyone has an unconcious desire to be understood and agreed with. A Jungian idea that the our unconcious needs and wants can manifest in how we talk to and hear each other. Which is why "haters" complain so loudly and fans retaliate so viscerally. The haters need you to hate the thing and the fans need everyone to love it and they dont want to hear it. We want to change each others minds but we want to do it with "righteous" indignation and talking ugly to each other. But the key thing here is its largely unconciously motivated. The ego protects you from information that you are not able to digest yet. This is why hot topic debates never go anywhere. Its why someone can be presented with physical evidence and still deny it or see evidence where there is none as a confirmation bias.. In other words if X game is bad you unconciously and intrinsically internalize something bad about yourself because you like something that is bad. Whats wrong with you? See what I mean? Conversely, if you dislike something that is good you'd have to recognize again that something is wrong with you. Basically we need to stop trying to brute force people to change their minds because the ego will immediately put up a barrier. Especially when so much of it is subjective. Ie I think the delayed attack thing got old in ER but I'm not baffled when someone else likes it. But one side wants to wage war that if you dont like it it's a skill issue and the other side wants to wage war calling it artificial difficulty. But of course its not so black and white as good and bad game design or good and bad games. Also, a tangent. I find the whole subjective/objective debate abused and misunderstood. Opinions are subjective true. But at the end of the day we all have monkey brains which are evolutionary evolved to respond positively or negatively to certain stimuli. The brain allows us to organize, parse out and differentiate the world. So even though our opinions can vary we still all share a human experience. This is why a harmonius chord is satisfying and a discordant note is jarring. So there is a level of objectivity even in design. And if it wasn't so then there would be nothing for designers to design for. A monkey could just as soon design a good game and me a bad one. All that being said not every evolution is good. And not every good evolution is executed well. Its a nuanced discussion and tbh I dont think thay discussion will happen anytime soon because people arent ready for that. Oh, and I say all this as a hypocrite! 😂

[@sablepaul441]

That’s why I hate ER base game and love SOTE

[@mykelmellen2378]

"Animation canceling." The thing that doesn't exist in ANY of the Souls games. ☠️ Delays aren't inherently bad. They're the same EVERY single time. If someone keeps eating those attacks, it's their own fault. Which is ultimately the issue. People get upset when they're reminded that they aren't as good as they tell themselves. People don't like accountability.

[@jermergerg]

To be clear, I’m not saying animation canceling exists, I’m saying that’s what my haters were saying

[@jameslough6329]

It’s objectively true that animation cancelling DOES exist for certain bosses (especially in ER). Morgott can cancel his recovery animation into a quick double dagger swipe depending on your positioning and Malenia can cancel her recovery animation into either a backwards dash or her delayed kick. I’m not saying this type of boss design is a bad thing but you can’t deny it exists.

[@jermergerg]

@@jameslough6329 I honestly have no idea one way or the other. I certainly believe what you're saying, but my only point was that people were complaining about it to me.

[@mykelmellen2378]

@@jermergerg yeah, I understood you.

[@mykelmellen2378]

@jameslough6329 I mean, I might be operating under a different idea of what animation canceling is. To me, what you're describing is the mechanic of branching attack patterns based on your position to the boss, which is a great addition to the formula and is a component of the combat that keeps the game from just being Dark Souls 4. (IMO) My idea of animation canceling is that the boss can just stop mid swing and decide to do something different entirely, basically RNG based. If I'm incorrect, then I revise my stance to "animation canceling exists, but personally think it is a good thing". If it's something you know is a possibility in a fight, then it's something you have to plan for and isn't really a surprise, except the first handful of attempts (in which, every attack is a surprise your first time fighting).

[@Calimc07]

I think what makes them feel so similar is the bosses and areas in both good and bad ways. some areas feel large and diverse (shadow keep, cathedral of the deep) while others are small and bland (carthus and belurat [i dont like belurat]). Also fun fact Rellana uses part of an unused pontiff animation to ignite her swords. Also Radahn looks a lot like Gael with the huge Miquella cape, same with feel with the delayed explosions (the cape whips), plus the obvious comparisons to twin princes. Messmer reminds me a lot of nameless king with feel personally. The strong mix of delayed attacks and quick thrusts kinda made me think of nameless king

[@AJ-eh5kn]

With all these similarities, no boss in Elden Ring gave me that feeling of beating a DK3 boss, its either: Thank god it is done. Screw this i am not having fun. Why i can't punish the boss. Of course the three bosses that come close are: Messmer, Midra and Bayle

[@jameslough6329]

The feeling of fighting and beating Bayle and Messmer was better than any DS3 boss except maybe Gael and Friede imo

[@AJ-eh5kn]

@@jameslough6329 Midir, twin princess..

[@AJ-eh5kn]

Demons

[@jameslough6329]

@@AJ-eh5kn Bayle is a MUCH more satisfying dragon fight than Midir imo

[@AJ-eh5kn]

@@jameslough6329 i can see why you would prefer him over midir. I really liked Bayle and enjoyed learning him, but there were times like many many ER bosses where he does a very long combo and then run away without allowing you to punish him, this kills the fun for me. Its watching the boss play the game, so its bad. Otherwise his moveset is better than Midir. I think i like them both equally

[@TrompetenThomas]

Elden Ring is the flawed iteration while Dark Souls 3 is the boringly safe prototype.

[@thomasjacques2822]

Bro did you just say vituperative

[@jermergerg]

seems like it

[@thomasjacques2822]

😂

[@FoolVII]

I love both but to me ds3 is better and i played elden ring more To me i just prefer the world of ds and the gameplay of elden ring

[@johntaylor8469]

Overall I think ds3 is better balanced, the bosses feel like a dance over memorization, and in my opinion has a more tight story that account for lore better.

[@armanii4005]

I hate the souls community sometimes man

[@Realmohg]

I hate them almost every day lol

As for the video itself, I agree pretty much. I still have issues with dlc boss design as a whole but I was also thinking a similar thing as to the influence of ds3 on the overall design when it came to the dlc. My overall problem is that they cooked in that regard and yet still had to go shit in the soup with stuff like lightning phase on dancing lion, metyr’s existence, romina’s phase transition, and the forbidden radahn cross slash combo. These things that just do nothing but detract from the experience for no real good reason. When they cooked, they whipped up some gourmet cuisine; messmer and bayle are easily some of the best bosses they have ever made. So why did they feel the need to shit in the soup? The soup was good, sure it ain’t for everyone but it still was good craft. Why just needlessly add something that just kinda ruins the dish?

[@mike4307]

For some reason it's hard for me to take you seriously with your word choices

@@mike4307 I guess I could have been slightly less… vulgar? I was more saying it to get the point across of adding an ingredient that ruins a dish that was already good. Its just effective to get the analogy across because if I used some other ingredient that I thought would suck, there would inevitably be someone who says “well I like candy canes in my soup” or some stuff like that. I edited the original comment to be slightly less vulgar so hopefully that helps. I refuse to take out the shittening of the soup though you are just gonna have to live with that.

[@jobbersupreme8720]

Dancing Lion's lightning phase isn't even that bad imo, the ice phase is worse because you can easily get punished when staying close to him. With the lightning phase being aware of your surroundings is the key and i would it compare it to Mohg's area denial bloodflame puddles or Fortissax's lightning

@@jobbersupreme8720 the problem with lightning phase is that you basically have to stop actually fighting the boss and have to piss off for like 30 seconds. You basically don’t get to punish the boss for most of his moves because doing so can be a death sentence on challenge runs.

[@jermergerg]

The lightning looks worse than it is, although I really hated it at first. Idk if you've seen my hitless video on him, but while it does force *a bit* of disengagement, once I learned the rhythm, I was able to do a decent amount of punishment. Idk I really like Dancing Lion lol.

I find it strange when elden ring players flame older souls game bosses for being mechanically limp when their first instinct and piece of advice to people is to do everything they can to invalidate said mechanics. This isn’t towards you btw I like your stuff I’m talking about the general sentiment from the ppl in the beginning.

[@JoseViktor4099]

Thereare two very good videos called "how to learn Elden Ring bosses" and "Elden Ring bosses advanced masterclass", both very good videos that helps a lot to introduce fighting bosses without external help. And yeah, is very weird, I mean "The art of using Mimic Tear" is not a reason of why I would prefer ER bosses xD.

@@JoseViktor4099 the problem is that no one ever recommends those kind of videos. Their first suggestion is either “change build” or “cheese” almost every time which is wild to me. You’d think people would actually like want to learn how to play the game? How the fuck is anyone gonna appreciate mechanics they won’t see or interact with. It’s probably one of my biggest issues with the elden ring player base as a whole. That and just being generally moronic when it comes to discourse but the aforementioned attitude plays a large part into that (it’s really hard trying to explain to the dude who using mimic tear/Tiche who’s using the cheese build of the month that they probably don’t know what the hell they are talking about when it comes to movesets and the likes.)

[@JoseViktor4099]

Yeah, is something I never find helpful when it comes on sites like Fextralife. I always try to be helpful to avoid with a basic moveset. If something can´t be reliably avoided with a basic moveset (which are two attacks if im not wrong on the DLC?) then those attacks are unavoidable. I was a bit tired, because both sides, defending it and complaining about it, funneled down to disinformation and not knowing what is talking about on most cases. It didn´t help that technically the most viewed ER defense video went to that route, "Perfectly unbalanced, just summon bro" I mean, I can recommend if you struggle to use anything that can help you, even Mimic Tear on case of a big skill issue, but if someone wants to argue about moveset, as builds are so different, is expected to talk akin what almost any player can do.

[@Ghorda9]

@@JoseViktor4099 the problem with "basic moveset" is that every build has tools that are unique to them, like a spell or ash of war or two hand blocking with a great sword.

[@JoseViktor4099]

@@Ghorda9 For me basic moveset is something that 90% of players had at their disposal (roll, run, jump, walk, crouch, r1(or weak attack) and r2(or charged attack))