ShadowDark RPG: Steal These 8 Rules

[@TwinSteel]

Came to confirm your journalistic integrity - couldn’t find Arcane Library’s comment - reviewed your SoloDark video and realized it was a tweet - I don’t tread in that wretched hive, so I’ll take your word for it - but WOW a lot of people are just unloading all their hate on you in the comments - good on you for staying… I’ll call it positive 👍🏿

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

Shadowdark is a ton of fun to run, and always-on initiative makes getting everyone involved so easy.

[@wizardsling]

Agreed!

[@AlternityGM]

I like these Shadowdark rules and plan to use them next time I DM for my next D&D adventure/campaign.

[@marioevildm7410]

Great video! I'm migrating all my DnD 5E games to ShadowDark, that is how good it is for us! plus it is very easy to DM Mouhahahahahaha

[@wizardsling]

Glad it was helpful!

[@TonyCrenshawsLatte]

d6 decider is awesome. It definitely has become a mainstay in my games.

[@wizardsling]

for sure! speeds things up and puts simple yes-no questions in the hands of fate

[@paavohirn3728]

I've been mostly using d8 as my "oracle die" as it has more granularity while being simple when you wish to have other odds besides 50/50. I also use d8 as a scale for randomizing weather etc without complex tables.

[@antieverything1]

yeah, you can use pretty much anything as a jumping-off point for inspiration and there's a lot of ways to do it beyond simply flipping a coin. About 5 years ago I developed a technique I called the "intensity die": when things started to slow down at the table, I'd ask someone to roll a d20 (without mentioning what it was for). If the roll was low, I'd just let them keep wasting time (albeit with the added metagame tension of not knowing what the low roll was for); on a middling roll, I'd add a little bit of flavor to the current environment that didn't really force the players to react (a gust of wind might blow through the dungeon corridor, or they overhear a conversation between two merchants in the market); on a high roll, something dramatic would happen (ideally, something that advances one of the ongoing plot threads or at least illuminates a tension within the campaign world) like a group of child pickpockets starting to ply their trade in their vicinity or a group of soldiers showing up looking to question the party about their recent shenanigans. In the intervening years, I've ended up simplifying this process to a d6 roll...the granularity isn't really impacted (x out of 6 is good enough for pretty much any use) and it falls in line with other old-school style procedures so the players don't know when I'm doing normal dungeon crawl/overland procedures or when I'm doing something else (or, for that matter, just asking them to roll a d6 for no reason at all). Side note: I recently did a Strahd Must Die Tonight 5e one shot and the players insisted on being allowed to draw tarot cards (long after the Tarroka reading had ended) to help them figure out their course of action so this sort of creative interpretation of random inputs doesn't just benefit DMs! @@paavohirn3728​

[@paavohirn3728]

@@antieverything1 Sounds really cool! I'm going to try to remember that. I'm actually moving more towards d6 from my previous d8 as the dice go.

[@Stormer13]

I've always handled alignment as more of a consequence of character actions. If a good aligned character does one evil thing, they're not suddenly going to change but I'll let that player know if actions like that continue without remorse, they'll begin to shift to neutral and eventually evil over time. We recently had this issue come up when two players decided to become vampires, and I warned them that the curse animating them would tempt them to commit evil actions. One player embraced this, while the other resolved to fight back against this temptation at all costs.

[@wizardsling]

I agree, it's a belief system, not a personality

[@Stormer13]

@@wizardsling I really like your analogy about it being like political parties! It's a very clever way to describe it yet still make it obvious to people what you're illustrating.

[@CooperAATE]

Isn't this just how you're supposed to use alignment?

[@Stormer13]

@@CooperAATE I don't think there's a way you're "supposed" to use alignment. I've seen people do it lots of ways. Everything from ignoring it completely to morality systems like you'd see in a video game (i.e. Fallout)

[@rushwingate]

1st time visitor...great video and presentation. Subscribed.

[@wizardsling]

Welcome aboard! see you in the comments

[@Arkenald]

Funny that you recommend taking the class level titles from ShadowDark, as it was something that they took from the TSR D&D editions.

[@wizardsling]

For sure many RPGs steal so everyone should just calm down

[@Arkenald]

@@wizardsling I don't like the word steal, it's more of involuntary communal sharing.

[@dimesonhiseyes9134]

Most old school games had a similar title system.

[@josephpurdy8390]

Imitation is the highest form of flattery. All the best variants make for a more enjoyable game. That is even if all the various pieces being used. You were already familiar with before playing it.

[@HeribertoEstolano]

D&D players would rather steal 435 rules from other system instead of just playing other system.

[@wizardsling]

thanks for the comment

[@HowtoRPG]

Thanks

[@wizardsling]

Welcome!

[@moolate127]

i'm just gonna run Shadowdark

[@DiscoBarbarian]

A lot of these mechanics come from older games, they are all solid for use in any game.

[@wizardsling]

true!

[@f.b.3263]

New to the channel: what a nice surprise! ✅Liked and subscribed 😊

[@wizardsling]

thanks!

[@dittrich04]

My players LOVE the luck tokens/coins. Yes, it's almost the same as inspiration but even after 5+ years my players hardly cared about inspiration. I explained luck tokens (i actually cut out cardboard tokens) and handed them out for cool role play, heroism or players understanding what's going on and helping the group forward. I think the real tokens and awarding them for OSR play style choices really helped my group pick up the gameplay.

[@wizardsling]

nice! Also like hero points that a bunch of different games use

[@justinblocker730]

yeah I didn't take that much from Shadow Dark, I do like the inventory management system but I tweeked it, anything the player has equipped does NOT count toward being encumbered. "so how much weight does this mask add to my character?" Anmswer: "I doesn't matter if they wear it weight is 0, if they store it it takes up 1 bobble slot, 5 bobbles take up 1 bulk, party gets 1 bulk +strength modifer" Also 100 gold is one bobble of weight, so finding that dragon's gold pile of 10,000 gold won't be moveable entirely.

[@wizardsling]

nice, i like that system!

[@reverance_pavane]

Alignment should always be changeable and based entirely on the character's actions. This goes all the way back to the original Paladin in Greyhawk (supplement 1) when they could lose their exalted status if they stopped being Lawful or Good (which implies alignments were always intended to change from the characters actions). People can declare their starting alignments, but what they do should affect their position on the alignment "map." Some DMs will actually physically plot their players movement over this map as they do notable stuff.

[@wizardsling]

interesting points! I've always felt alignment shouldn't be chosen at level 1...

[@CooperAATE]

Excellent

[@quantus5875]

First, I want to say Shadowdark is a really good game! Well done! It's a great design of many different 5ed + OSR + indie pieces in a very cohesive, playable game. Lot of passion I think went into that game. Shadowdark borrowed lots of interesting mechanics/rules -- which is great -- but let's give credit to where they came from: 1) Always on initiative - Matt Colville - KZbin series "Running the Game". Although, I think not really that innovative -- how about let's let everyone have a turn! Never had a problem with this it's called having a good role-playing group and making sure everyone has fun. 🙂 2) Track time / Light / and Timers - Some OSR Games have been more resource tracking intensive. But first game that I've seen that really took this into the grimdark region is Luke and Thor's Torchbearer RPG. Not familiar but I think Index Card RPG which came later (and I think Kelsey knows the author of Index Card). 3) Gear slots -- So many TTRPGs have done this before. The first is Toon (1984) and Dragon Warrior (1985). It's also, of course, done all the time in computer RPGs. 4) Death timer - The Dark Eye 5th Ed. (2016). But think it's been done before (not that familiar with TDE 4ed), but so many death mechanics rules (all kinds of little variants) - a topic that is all over the place. 5) Law/Chaos/Neutral for alignment -- I'd probably have to go look it up to makes sure but OD&D (1974). I believe Gary Gygax didn't make D&D into a 9-alignment system until 1st Edition AD&D. 6) D6 Decider - This is really IMO just a derivative (simplification) on random effect tables. Not even sure if I even call this a rule. Arduin (1977), and on and on for random effect tables. 7) Titles by Alignment - Titles by level started in 1Ed AD&D, which I always thought was pretty cool. Titles by alignment might be new! :-) I'll have to go look in my collection of OSR RPGs and see if this derivative has been done before. 8) Magic Item tables - 1Ed AD&D (had magic item tables) and David Hargrave's Arduin (1977) might have done it first. Random item tables were super common back in the late 70s and 80s. So good news is feel free to borrow -- because the reality is it is VERY hard to come up with anything that is truly new.

[@wizardsling]

indeed! Thanks for adding to the convo.

[@LordOz3]

I used handwave encumbrance until I noticed my players were almost all dumping their Strength. 5E made it too easy to ignore Strength, even for melee fighters.

[@MemphiStig]

I'm with you on the last point. I love seeing/stealing other people's lists and tables, but I've found it's usually better, if I'm running my own campaign, to make up tables that fit into my world. If you need a quick bit of inspiration, someone else's tables are fine. But if you're weaving your great epic, they should be customized, because no matter how cool they may be, they're not based on your ideas, so they don't necessarily fit your game. But ymmv.

[@wizardsling]

Exactly! thanks for the comment

[@markgnepper5636]

Great stuff friend 👏 👍

[@wizardsling]

Thank you! Cheers!

[@liamcage7208]

Any encumbrance/resource management rules are where PC's cheat the most. Fudged dice rolls is a far distant second in comparison. The GM can enforce the rules and players will just find a more "relaxed" table to play at. I've been playing TTRPG's since AD&D in 1980. Most players hate having to keep track of inventory to that level of detail.

[@wizardsling]

Yeah I don't like inventory management. And anytime I try to enforce it when I'm GMing, it always gets left behind after a session or two

[@Berks11]

I hear accounts on the Internet all the time of DMs that use the rule “that goes against your alignment so you can’t do it,” and it blows my mind. As a DM, I don’t pay attention to my PCs alignments at all and neither do they. Good vs evil is such a broken concept. Kind, caring people are capable of committing malice and villains can have redeeming qualities-or just some qualities you wouldn’t expect. If a player spends time on their character’s personality traits, ideals, bonds, flaws, and backstory, the alignment develops organically and is easier for them to maintain-though I do kinda like the idea of still using a lawful-chaotic scale!

[@wizardsling]

Well said! I never hassle players about alignment.

[@Emanemoston]

One point I disagree with how I have seen the always on initiative played out is that if the party is moving up and a player moves out of the light source they are in the dark. In real time the party was moving together, not individually, they would all have been in the light source. I think it would be up to the game master to reflect this.

[@wizardsling]

good point

[@caledoniaman]

Why not just play Shadowdark?

[@wizardsling]

why not indeed

[@devonsmith9519]

Death Timer and Gear Slots don't seem all that bad as a casual adjustment to a table. In fact, I very much prefer Death Timer over the three up/down. As for Gear Slots, it seems like 10 items is not alot, but when you get down to it, why are you wading into battle with your backpack? Taking only the essentials makes sense, and it makes Backpacks and storage devices way more useful. This does get thrown out the window if you don't address the issues with both additionally though. Death Timer is solid; how does it affect the revolving death door problem? Gear Slots are good; how do magical storage options affect it and how are the Storage options affected? Conceptually interesting, but they need a little more... Fleshing out, so to speak. Instead of just straight stealing/adding them. I use a similar concept for decisions if I can't make one, but it's just a D20, not a D6. If I need to make a "yes but", or a "no but", "yes and", or "no and", decisions, I find a D20 gives you more wiggle room for a similar effect. Sometimes I use a D12 in it's place. A D6 is good for triple decisions, a D12 for Quad, D20 for Penta. D4's, D8's and D10's just do not roll, so much as flop. Of course, all of those can be used for either or's as well.

[@wizardsling]

Well said! Thanks for the comment.

[@Heritage367]

Once a player is at 0, they roll a d20 every round on their turn. If they roll a nat 20, they stabilize at 1 hp. Another PC can attempt to stabilize them with a DC 15 Intelligence check.

[@commentsectionuser577]

just PLAY Shadowdark, don't steal rules and stay in the same systems! Expand your horizons!

[@wizardsling]

Thanks for the comment! Have a great day!

[@Akeche]

Right? I know this is kind of his schtick, but it is a pox upon the community where people talk about bolting stuff onto D&D to try to fix it. I also would never add any of this to PF2e, it's already an almost overfilling cup of a system as-is in terms of rules.

[@wizardsling]

I’ve never been called a “pox” before, so that’s fun. I believe everyone should play the games they want, how they want, free of judgment. Have a nice day

[@dimesonhiseyes9134]

Is their an actual in game economy? Is gold actually worth something and do magic items fit into the in game economy?

[@wizardsling]

If you're curious I recommend picking up a copy of the game rules... it's a good read

[@dimesonhiseyes9134]

@@wizardsling I'm kinda done with buying game books just to see what's in them. I don't have the time nor the money to just buy and see.

[@jimboonlyone]

There is a free PDF download of the "basic rules", give it a try.

[@shinigamiauthor]

Nothing in shadowdark is original, which is not a statement saying shadowdark isn't good or should be ignored. Just pointing something out.

[@wizardsling]

nothing at all is original, tbh

[@tomgartin]

5e caps you at 3 attunement slots but sooo many magic items don’t require attunement that it rarely matters.

[@wizardsling]

All the good ones require attunement. Especially at high level

[@seanfaherty]

yeah, worrying about encumbrance and gear slots whatever you call it is not for me but i have always liked timers

[@wizardsling]

To be each their own. Have a nice day!

[@Akeche]

Or instead of "stealing" the rules, just play the superior game.

[@wizardsling]

Whatever floats your boat. Thanks for the comment!

[@quantus5875]

Tons of great games out there and the list includes Shadowdark. Castles & Crusades, Pathfinder, Fantasy Age, 13th Age, tons of great OSR games - the list goes on and on and on -- We are so fortunate to have so many great TTRPG games available to us.

[@DyrianLightbringer]

Everyone bleeds out at the same rate from the same severity of cut. How tough you are doesn't factor into it. A tougher person might be able to avoid going into shock, but a nicked artery is still going to bleed out in about a minute or two no matter who you are.

[@wizardsling]

is you a doctor or sumthin?

[@dimesonhiseyes9134]

That isn't exactly true. Assuming a person is of the same stage of development child/young adult/adult etc, an unhealthy person will often bleed out faster or die of complications faster as opposed to a healthy person. Blood loss heslth "complications" are more complex than just volume.

[@DyrianLightbringer]

@@wizardsling no, not a doctor. I just research a lot of topics, because I'm a writer, GM, and game designer, and before I write about something, I want to be sure there's at least some element of truth to it, to be sure it's believable to the reader. Perhaps how tough a person is could be a factor, I do know that there are many things which affect people regardless of their toughness that D&D and some other RPGs don't do right. For example, many poisons directly destroy muscle or nerves, or interfere with how the body functions by interfering directly with chemical signals. There are some poisons that don't care how tough you are. Of course, ingested poisons are affected by a creature's metabolism. How fast a poison works and how quickly a creature recovers from it. Anyway, my point is that while constitution matters in many things, there are many things in which it doesn't.

[@mykediemart]

Why not steal them. Shadow dark stole them as well or distilled down a complex system to a simple one. ICRPG is a big one. I backed the game as I liked what she put together.

[@wizardsling]

Icrpg is a great game! Love that one

[@quantus5875]

No one stole anything -- I like the use of the word borrowed - none of the mechanics or rules in Shadowdark are new. In fact, almost every possible mechanic has already been done. Coming up with a new mechanic is extremely difficult. I think the beauty of the Shadowdark game is rather she took lots of good ideas (from 5Ed, OSR games, and some indie games) and made a really nice game out of it.

[@erikmartin4996]

Rounds are 1 min in D&D not 6 sec

[@kaankafka2751]

I think what you mean is a turn. And DnD 5e only uses Turns and Rounds in Combat. But in Old School games it was also used in Dungeon Exploration. E.g.: in B/X a turn was 10 Minutes of Dungeon Exploration. And a Turn had a sequence of play. So you could very well stay in Initiative Order. But since 5e has no dungeon exploration - all that is lost.

[@cruciblegaminggroup5471]

If a round was one minute that drastically impacts things like rage and many spell durations. It's six seconds.

[@Arkenald]

@@wizardsling They where 1 minute in older TSR editions. It's been shorted to 6 seconds in all the WotC editions.

[@wizardsling]

Let's stop all this a-fussin' and a-feudin'