Shadowdark: The Perfect Blend of 5e and the OSR (feat.

[@geoffreynelson6413]

“If you were a second level elf, your backstory was that you were a first level elf.” 😂😂😂

[@fotipitrakkos1193]

3.5 was my high school years too, and how I got into dnd. So i must say, i do love those character tables and seeing all the funky abilities you're gonna get. And it makes me hesitate about the simple lvl up table, thinking those cool abilities are lacking. ... but then my dm brain kicked in and said, "but because it is so clean and simple, you can MAKE cool abilities for your players as you play. And they will be perfectly tailored narratively to what the player is gunning for, as well as whatever unfolds in the story naturally." And i think it has changed my mind massively about this RPG. The titles page is what really turned the cogs in my head to get it.

[@valasdarkholme6255]

I think it's worth mentioning that a lot of those "oldschool trappings" in OSR games (from talking to people) is because they specifically want mechanical cross-compatibility with the D&D (B/X, Holmes, White Box, whatever) from 40-45 years ago, so you can continue to use the supplements for that with the new stuff.

[@Stephenmcabrera]

That is worth pointing out, and it's a valuable feature because it means that you get interoperability between what might be a small indie game and a small indie module. Similar in kind (if smaller) to the value you get from making 5e content

[@jeromeace1282]

That's totally fair, but its a tradeoff. What is gained in backwards comparability is lost in the fact that there's a lot of clunky and shitty design due to 0e-2e being well...the first ttrpg ever. Design has gotten much better in the 50 years that ttrpgs have been a thing, which in this case lets something like shadowdark take the essence of oldschool play but make it better designed.

[@valasdarkholme6255]

@@Stephenmcabrera Yep. or 3e content. There's a ton of cross-compatible 3.x d20 content. It's my D&D of choice these days, but mostly using Non-Hasbro-Wizards / Non-Paizo books.

[@valasdarkholme6255]

@@jeromeace1282 I mean - B/X isn't my game of choice - but for the OSR-guys, that's what they want, new content for the 50 year old game, or replacement corebooks that are cross-compatible with content for the 50 year old game. Which is why usually you see them saying things like: "If it doesn't have rules for 10 minute dungeon turns and spelunking resource management survival as a core mechanic, and isn't cross-compatible with the 50 year old game, it's not OSR, it's nuSR". Doesn't even mean the new game is bad. I don't think they're even evaluating it for good/bad. I think they're evaluating it for 'compatibility with the game I already have and like' which is a different axis of judgment, you know?

[@jeromeace1282]

@@valasdarkholme6255 Yeah, I get it, its literally just the OG version of 5e players wanting everything they play to basically just be more 5e.

[@elementzero3379]

I discovered and backed this Kickstarter on day one. I mostly run and play Numenera and 5E, but I've been hunting for years for the right "Old School-style" game to add to our table. Shadowdark bringing the principles of OSR, while implementing mechanical lessons and innovations learned over the last 5 decades, makes me very optimistic about it.

[@haganlife]

Love the simplified rules ( encumbrance for example ) and time pressure included in ShadowDark. It will be my main go to for at least the next few years. I will modify 5E adventures and monsters to accommodate the SD rules. Spells are the only thing I have not play tested enough to see if it is balanced or will leave mages as burdens of torch eating instead of assisting.

[@mthorn78]

It looks like an amazing game. You really sold me on it. I would have just passed this by as another OSR product in a flooded market, but I love your videos and I really wanted to see what game you devote 2 hours to exploring. Time well spent! I also think you're backing a great cause for your fundraiser and I ended backing both the game and the fundraiser! Thanks for making some great TTRPG content!

[@tc0930]

I'm a big fan, Baron. I DM and your video on re-thinking how one can conceive a campaign (tying everything together so there are no "wrong directions") has been a game changer for me. I'm intrigued by Shadowdark. I'm looking to move away from 5e's rules bloat and I've been exploring options. I'll be picking this up. Keep up the good work :-)

[@recursivecoin359]

I absolutely love your description of the OSR! I grew up playing in the 80s... and you are so Right! ...to call it "playing at the way D&D used to be." Rose colored glasses to be sure!

[@TrippyTheShroom]

Unbelievably excited for Shadowdark! I just put a pledge down, can't wait to get it in my hands.

[@tankatim13]

To rest inside a dungeon, you need a camp fire which costs 3 torches.

[@jollyrogerquill]

Baron, would you consider GMing a ShadowDark actual (virtual top) in your channel? I think it would really help a lot to see this great system in play.

[@kingVibe111]

Hey he said rococo. That’s a great rare word.

[@johnbushell8629]

I pledged prior to watching this. 2hrs is a lot, and I did watch it over a couple of days, but it was all fun stuff. Loved Alex's story for an experience of the Wish spell.

[@hanszurcher]

13th Age handles movement similarly to what Shadowdark appears too. I like it.

[@LordStJohn-nq4np]

Low Fantasy Gaming has melded 5E with OSR sensibilities; as has Worlds Without Number in an extremely streamlined system.

[@DM_Curtis]

WWN blows this away. I mean, I guess you could buy it for the art and random tables, but even Tome of Adventure Design is still better.

[@cavalcojj]

So if I would run this I'd take out all of the really neat spells, or better yet make a list of all of the weaker spells and give that to the wizard for the spells they can learn at 1st tier and beyond. Then I put the more powerful spells in the dungeon and that really makes the wizard want to dive into the dungeon to get those powerful spells.

[@FablesD20]

5TD is dope AF Do you find that Shadowdark is compatible with 5e adventures, like Curse of Strahd? And do you find it easy to home-brew small "plug ins" like more or different ancestries to fit different fantasy worlds?

[@DungeonMasterpiece]

cut the 5e hit points in half and you will be good to go.

[@marccaron6008]

I did go through the edition treadmill from 1981 BX to 5e. Stopped paying 5e in 2020. I liked them all despite their failings. For the last two years, I carefully reread BX, 1e, 2e, 3e and 4e. I chose BX in the end. I've made my own lightly hacked version and use some of Advance OSE. Didn't hear anything to change my mind. Thanks for the review.

[@johnathanrhoades7751]

I really like OSE, but most people don’t just play OSE as written. It’s modded and tweaked and reworked and that’s its strength. You want a different encumberance system? Throw it in. You want different classes? Take 20 minutes and come up with something. You want more flexible casting? Tack that on. It’s extremely easily hackable. No shade on Shadowdark, it looks great and I’m definitely picking it up, but B/X / OSE has become a common vernacular in the OSR for a reason. I don’t see Shadowdark replacing that, but it is a great game for people comfortable with 5e that want something a bit simpler with that survival horror flavor/emphasis on exploration, rulings over rules, challenge the player not the character, kind of sensibility. Also the tables and art are phenomenal 😊

[@SoulPotion]

Shadowdark is... brilliant! Thanks for the video, my friends. I'll play this game for sure

[@Naren25]

OSE rules are not gimmicky. They are exactly what you described Knave as, simple and modular. Without a "universal resolution system" its much MORE modular. In OSE you can rip out and replace Thieves skills to your taste. Not so in, for example, D&D 5e, where skills are all tied in to the core mechanic of d20 + attribute + proficiency, as well as being tied in to the silly notion of "balance". Far harder to remove, replace or modify than OSEs so called gimmick of a skill system.

[@brianfroeschner6644]

The thing that I feel these new offerings are missing is something between a thriving adventurer and death. I feel a system that causes impairments for those PCs that fall in battle (below 0 hp) is logical. It can start with prominent scars and scale up to maiming. Playing a peg legged 6th level character is kind of cool, when it was truly earned in battle. Instead of chasing the usual magical treasure, PCs can go on an adventure to acquire something to offset a handicap.

[@hanszurcher]

Makes me miss those old Rolemaster/MERP critical hit tables.

[@n4tune8]

Have you tried Forbidden Lands?

[@brianfroeschner6644]

I actually find crit tables more arbitrary, compared to rolling on an injury table when a PC drops below 0. At least the player has possible strategy options to keep from habitual damage. A received crit, not so much.

[@demonsquidgod]

@@n4tune8 How does Forbidden Lands handle these kinds of situations?

[@n4tune8]

@@demonsquidgod The characters have very low 'hp' (their attributes vary from 2 to 6), and when they are broken (an attribute at 0), they must roll on a table to find how they were impaired, mentally or physically. The game also has pretty good critical hit tables. Pretty much what Brian was looking for, something between a thriving adventurer and death.

[@Elyonadonai]

“It’s not ridiculously crunchy like 5th edition” ?????

[@brianironside5726]

How does this compare to "Worlds Without Number"? It seems to have a similar "modern OSR" feel.

[@DM_Curtis]

WWN is a B/X combat system, 2d6 skill system, flexible character build, with modern d20-style action economy for combat. It's top-tier D&D for running old school content, plus it's free.

[@rontalkstabletop]

2:01:48 Holy cow that's a great table!

[@MirskCragmaw]

Loved this session, I took the opportunity to read the core book pdf along side with you. can't wait for the printed book!!!

[@pappabear4977]

It seems like 5e with spooky packaging

[@bromossunstarranger8706]

Shadow Dark is a great bare bones framework to build off of and she put it in the creative commons license for creators to use. So now we have One D&D mixed with a Shadow Dark giving us a DCC magic system and many other features to add to the toolbox of RPG game design with the freedom of litigation. I'm excited SD is already very close to my own RPG system Gloomgold very exciting times in the hobby. I bought in at the $159 all in the artwork is great too!

[@bryankelly3647]

We don’t have enough bare bones systems floating around already??

[@SoulPotion]

@@bryankelly3647 No

[@bryankelly3647]

@@SoulPotion No? We need more trad variations on the RPG equivalent of a stick figure? How many clones of a stick figure do you need?

[@samchafin4623]

I like casual Baron 😎 And belated congratulations on your recent wedding!

[@sectorbob]

I really like Shadowdark, backed it on the first or second day and have been following the development and basic quickstart rules that have been around for a year or so now(?). There is a lot of streamlining and speeding up of play choices that I like. But there are a lot of elements that came from other games (looking at the Black Hack and it's forest of variants and a couple of other simple pick up and go games) and the variant characters that as you level you roll for what you get has been in glog rpging for a while. The genius of this rpg is the streamlining and clearly written rules and text.

[@AceneDean]

Sometimes i think im the only person who didnt start playing RPGs until 2022, bounced hard off of 5e, and found my permanent game in OSE. I dont get why it is so derided. It feels fresh, streamlined, and perfect to me.

[@Hellvector]

I was an immediate backer of the game already, and seeing the immense amount of GM content in the book has somehow made me even more excited about the full release! Thanks for the wonderful look at the book guys, and it’s great to have you in the darkness with the rest of us!

[@jasonmileham]

Have you not played DCC?

[@steelmongoose4956]

This seems like a solid rules-lite/Microlite treatment, but I’m not seeing anything I haven’t seen in other retro games, even if this combination of other rules proves to work well. It will be interesting to see if the game has staying power; it certainly has enthusiasm at the front end. As others have remarked, it seems more beer-and-pretzels to me than fertile ground for full, complex campaigns. Anyway, I wish Kelsey well, and I’m in favor of anything that breaks people out of the WotC stranglehold on the hobby. I just hope there’s more to the game than I’m seeing.

[@megasquidd]

In defense of DCC spellcasting... Most games never go above 5th level. You don't have that many spells to keep of. I just print out the spells I know. Roll the check, read the result, adjudicate. Shadowdark actally reads like it is more swingy than DCC. You don't always lose your spell if you fail the casting check in DCC. If you roll bad in Shadowdark not only do you not do anything, but you lose the spell. In DCC you can choose to spellburn(spend physcial stats to increase your modifier) and make sure you cast the spell.

[@GoatOnATrain]

Unrelated but what I didn't realize from him being in the suit all the time but Baron's pretty nicely built.

[@SilverAphelion]

Hey long time no see, great video buddy

[@epee11c]

I thought you were in a T-shirt in the little pre-roll before clicking and I was shocked! Turns out you were just wearing a short-sleeve button-up. Crisis averted!

[@robertwinslade3104]

Some really cool stuff in here, may well pick it up! A few changes I would definitely make though; I would miss 5e's ancestry ability score bonuses; I think that was a nice way of incentivising PCs towards certain lore appropriate ancestry+class combinations without locking them into it. I also think some sort of feat/foci system would be great for character customization; I would create a range of foci each with their own small Talent table, and characters get to pick a foci at level 1 getting a Talent from that in addition to their class Talent. At later levels whenever getting to choose a Talent they could pick to roll either on their Class table or their Foci table. Plus the range of spells and classes is rather minimal right now and I think definitely needs expanding; it is especially lacking some sort of option for nature based casters like Druids. Fortunately it looks like part of the beauty of this system is that it is simple enough that homebrewing extra content or tacking on extra features should be really simple with limited potential to break the game

[@PiiskaJesusFreak]

Looking at the screen share: is that Pop is that you are running? As a linux developer, seeing one of my favorite KZbin creators run a Linux desktop makes me smile. 😊

[@mitchellsink2584]

The amount of aid that is given to the GM is astounding. That alone is worth the book. Major props to the Arcane Library. Mix this with ICRPG's Gm section and you have the tools to make some amazing worlds and encounters.

[@devonsharkey414]

5e Hardmode seems to be another ShadowDark influence from what I have seen.

[@thed0nz]

Kudos for supporting Brave Talk!

[@ThomasGiles]

The last chapter is Alignment and lasts half of the video. Maybe something went wrong with the next chapter after that?

[@DungeonMasterpiece]

Dunno, they are automatically generated by KZbin

[@RobertWF42]

I'm warming up to ShadowDark as I learn more. Not crazy about the name - what does it mean? Aren't all shadows dark?

[@DungeonMasterpiece]

Its spookier than the under dark

[@geoffreynelson6413]

I think it looks fun. And easy. Looks good. Smooth is a good way to describe it.

[@oscargarciahinde4247]

Backed this as soon as I learnt of it's existence

[@kcriggins1]

So for wizards who are level one start with 3 spells but if they find a spell in game they can learn it in game?

[@ingframin]

Yes

[@shadowstep420]

Looks really fun seems to have quite similar rules to quest rpg and a few other games i have seen

[@jazmaynard3474]

Can someone explain to me the movement system ? I'm super intrigued by this game, but my brain seems to miss how this system works. Like how do you manage obstruction and space between characters ? How movement between zones works ? etc. Everything else is really cool imo, but I just can imagine this movement system. Thanks for the overview !

[@SeanFranchise]

Movement and spacing seems to be a pretty clean pick up from ICRPG (and probably other systems too) where a scene is broken up into zones, arranged however the GM likes, and adjacent zones are Near each other. So in 1 turn you can move from 1 zone to an adjacent zone, and use 1 action. A 3rd zone on the other side of the zone adjacent to your current position is Far. I can't recall if you can sacrifice your action to move 2 zones in Shadowdark, but you can "double move" like 5e in ICRPG and you could easily implement that here too.

[@jazmaynard3474]

@@SeanFranchise That's the part I think I understood. Each of the zones are relative to one another, depending from which character you choose to look at them. But how do you manage obstruction ? Imagine a character A moving from near to close to a character B. It's like the character A can move as weirdly as he wants to avoid ennemies between him and the character B, as long as he stays in a circle up to 30 feet around the character B, and this no matter how many ennemies are in the same "near" zone. I don't know, it's just a bit confusing to me. Does it mean you can't posture yourself in a fight to protect your wizard ? Because at the moment an ennemy enters the "near" zone of the said wizard, he can move to him ? How can you manage this as a DM ? Is there an implicite "rule" I don't understand ?

[@SeanFranchise]

@@jazmaynard3474 I rule that positioning still matters within Near distance. If you've got a fighter Close to your wizard to defend him, and a monster uses their movement to enter the zone and move Close to attack, I'd rule that the fighter could reasonably adjust to put their shield in the way even if they've already had their turn this round since they told me their mission is to keep the wizard safe. If another monster comes Close, the fighter has to decide which to block unless they've worked their way into a position with a choke point, flipped a table for cover, etc. If you're a fighter and enter Near to a group of warriors in a shield wall formation, I'd rule that you'd need to use an additional movement next turn to maneuver around them if there's space, but you could move Close to engage them at a disadvantage this turn. So we're not concerning ourselves with 5 ft increments as much as intent. Arrangement within Near still matters, but it's up to the GM and players to reason out at the table.

[@andykaufman7620]

How does the Halfling 'become invisible'. Here is a video demonstrating how: kzbin.info/www/bejne/m3bSd5Jjn8mDY9U These are 'native' Halflings in this particular video out in the Shire.

[@dndshorts2750]

I don't have much experience with Kickstarters. It looks like I missed my opportunity (it loos like it has closed). Do they generally make the product available after the original Kickstarter has fulfilled?

[@DungeonMasterpiece]

Shadowdark has a quick start free version on the website. Once books ship from the press, they will be available for sale on the website, I'm sure

[@dndshorts2750]

@@DungeonMasterpiece Thanks Baron. The backer kit is now active. I saw it, I backed it! I'm so excited for this game. Thanks for the reply.

[@IamRTurner]

2:03:07 he mentions a video about making combat exciting by analyzing renaissance battles but I cannot find it in his video list. Any help?

[@johngillan4475]

Very interesting thank you

[@oldmanofthemountains3388]

Hey! A fellow Mountaineer!

[@StanNotSoSaint]

Robal Goodwin is a Robin Hood, I assume.

[@chrisragner3882]

I am slow to change my system. But I have been wanting a system that will play into my world. I thought DCC was it but it is a bit too much for my players. Shadowdark seems to be it. I can use my Arcane Dysphoria as disadvantage with Mishaps!

[@gregh5665]

Great review of a great game! I got the impression you like it. LOL! Lots of great comments on Shadowdark's strengths. And only a few digressions to crap on perceived OSR drawbacks like THACO, percentage dice for thief abilities, and how 1st level thieves and magic-users are weak, etc. If you watch enough RPG youtube channels, this can get pretty tiresome. So here are some counter-opinions: THACO was an improvement over memorizing tables; it's fun to roll percentage dice sometimes; character races/classes are not balanced at every level - neither is real life! Suck it up, buttercup. I agree all of these things can and have been improved in newer editions/games, but they were never as uniformly bad as they are now held up to be. The worst thing about 1982 was your mom buying you 100% polyesther back-to-school clothes from the K-Mart discount bin, not playing a thief with 1d4 hp. I had a ranged weapon and was smart enough to "Stay the F*&^ out of Melee" (STFOOM), which was practically a branded trademark (TM) for low-level magic-users and thieves, and worked just fine at keeping life expectancy on par with fighters.

[@saldiven2009]

As the video begins, I'm thinking to myself about how amazing the rules of this game would need to be to make up with the astounding cringiness of the name. Is it supposed to be a tongue-in-cheek poking at edge lords?

[@rontalkstabletop]

1:24:52 My One Question: What is the Riddle of Steel?

[@Irafenix]

Just take a look at the old Conan the Barbarian,

[@grailcountry]

33:22 Lion and Dragon did this already. I think this design is better, but to give credit where credit is due.

[@steelmongoose4956]

Lion & Dragon has a different sort of theme going, too. I’m not sure it’s objectively better in Shadowdark, but it’s more germaine to the sort of game Kelsey wrote.

[@michaelmullenfiddler]

Carousing: straight outta DCC Lankhmar. Not a bad thing 😊

[@pappabear4977]

My group is content not doing the “5e thing”. 5e isn’t appealing to me.

[@NisGaarde]

He's back!!! 🤩

[@goodbuddy7607]

Everything about Shadowdark is perfect except for the name and coverart, which are misleading.

[@kyrnsword72]

I bought in on the kickstarter to hopefully get the core rulebook in my hands. Seeing the full book on this video makes me fall completely in love with SHADOWDARK! May this Game System storm the tabletop stores for it shall hopefully take over the ttrpg seen!

[@joewalsh1031]

This is great. Your scripted content is not nearly as provocative as this (although I always find it thoughtful and useful).

[@wbbartlett]

"By a woman's mismanagement". Your mormon was showing for a bit there 😂

[@ShannonFerguson]

No resurrection or reincarnation spells. 😁👍🏻

[@andynonimuss6298]

Don't think the artwork is selling the Shadowdark game? Think again. Here's a direct sampling of some of the comments from Kickstarter itself: "Amazing art. Rad artwork. I particularly love the artwork. Love the artwork! Any chance of t-shirts in the future?. The artists in this book rock! Artwork is great. I am so in love with the DM screen art. I like this art. I absolutely love the cover art. The art definitely builds your world of Shadowdark, the more art you can have the better. Love the artists you chose. Love the art. Art is dope. I absolutely love the art, your artists are killing it. Neat art INCREDIBLE art. The ART! You’ve captured what I love about the old stuff, yet in new ways. It’s be outstanding to be able to purchase some prints. My wife and I love the artwork. Some of the best screen art I've seen. The art for your project is amazing! Art for this game is so distinct the art is just *Killer*. Art is some of the best I've seen in the industry. Awesome art."

[@CScott-wh5yk]

Great review

[@andykaufman7620]

Shadowdark is NOT modern adaptation for many key elements like Hit Points. If you go to 0 hit points, you are dead, and focuses on keeping hit points lower so characters are more fragile and less robust. I don't know if it has a Roll the Body rule like DCC does. meaning you went down to 0 hit points, ignore any negative so once you reach 0 you are down it is irrelevant how much more hit point damage you took. Then when you want to see 'are they dead dead', (harkening back to Miracle Max's assessment 'there is mostly dead means slightly alive' kzbin.info/www/bejne/baK5nYGfdr6mnrM. So what does Shadowdark do with 'death' or potential dead. At one point DnD had the official rule where you had to take a lot of damage to warrant an 'instant death' save, whereas old school had Death Magic save or die. So this issue about how to handle issues like that, or when you reach zero hit points is a real fundamental difference between editions of DnD and 'new and old' school gaming.

[@albertmockel6245]

The thing is, now that I am back playing B/X, is I that don't need to buy any other rule set, EVER. Sure I've bought OSE because it's better organised as a reference. But polluting my B/X with any version of AD&D, or D&D3 or any version? No, thanks.

[@needmorecowbell6895]

The artwork is nice. If combat is faster and less complicated, then it's an improvement over 5e. The backgrounds system is very similar to Shadow of the Demon Lord. Stats bonuses are too important and it gets worse with leveling. The power creep is far too fast. Feats/talents are a hard no. Having biological stats increase, but not having learned skills like picking pockets and climbing increase is nonsense. You get better playing a piano with practice. As someone who trained in martial arts as a kid, a lot of it is technique, not strength and dex. Long rest healing all your wounds is deal-breaker. Doctors and surgeons really are a thing. No point going on. The better solution is from a game like Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay where you don't get more hit points. If you don't get more hit points, you don't need to worry about power creep and game balance. Characters advance horizontally, not vertically. You spend XP to get new skills. You learn how to do new stuff, you know, like read and write, ride a horse, drive a cart, etc. and you get better at those learned skills. Weapon Skills and Ballistics Skills have no relationship to strength or dex. You get better with a sword or bow by getting more skilled with a sword or bow, not lifting and not rando. But your character starts not knowing how to do nearly anything and dirt poor. Gold is very rare. WFRP 1E used a mana pool resource system where you only run out of spells when you run out of mana. Spells fail and mishaps happen. Fireball is a first level spell. But your character is very customizable, because you can learn to do almost everything.

[@mgb360]

I don't mind the random talents and having stat increases, but I agree it's too fast and completely healing overnight ruins it. I do think the real time light might be fun, but it would also be trivially easy to add to any other system. I might have to look at WFRP now, it sounds interesting.

[@jcraigwilliams70]

I think the healing thing depends on how you view it... I always hated HP when I played BECMI because they seemed illogical to me. My usual example was that a high-level fighter could get stabbed 20 times with a dagger, dropping to 1 HP, and keep fighting as if he was uninjured. Then he would take a 1HP papercut and drop dead. But now I understand HP as a combination of luck, fatigue, minor injuries, and stress, so healing overnight seems fine to me. In my OSE games, I have HP regenerate quickly (though slower than ShadowDark) and gave characters 10 Body Points for when they drop below 0 HP or take a critical hit. While HP recover quickly, BP heal very slowly, representing actual, lasting, life-threatening wounds.

[@steelmongoose4956]

In the homebrew I’m working on, attribute scores are defined by skill choices. If you specialize toward a Hulk Smash! kind of character, you’ll have high strength and durability. If your character is more about balance, speed, and precision, your score’s follow from there. I don’t know Warhammer, but I like the approach you described.

[@Shu_BLN]

I just ordered the game and am watching videos about Shadowdark for hours... I cannot help the feeling that this thing is overhyped like crazy omg. If I hear one more person say HOW AWEEEEEESOME AND SMART AND GENIOUS Kelsey is I vomit. Every single video is 30min of this. The random talent table table solves everything between OSR and 5e? Really? Is a +1 to ability score really making my character unique like you say? Dont get me wrong. I am sure this game is awesome and I am quite hyped to try it but come on guys.

[@BillWiltfong]

It's hard not to hold this first look at Shadowdark in suspicion, because even if Baron & Alex were paid nothing by @TheArcaneLibrary to make this video, there is no difference between this video and what they would have made if they had been paid. I appreciate enthusiasm and positivity, but this crossed the line into sycophantic gushing, and I don't know why.

[@DungeonMasterpiece]

Because its the best iteration of the osr that I've ever played, and I've played for 27 years

[@I..cast..fireball]

Looks like they may have forgotten how 2d6 works in making the advancement tables. Looks like they thought each result was equally likely. For fighter the options go 2.8%, 38.9%, 41.7%, 13.9%, 2.8%. Looks like they tried to make the middle ones more likely with expanded result ranges, even tho the dice already do that naturally when summing. Makes me worried about the rest of the system if this was an oversight.

[@TheArcaneLibrary]

Nope, the fringe results are far less likely and that is intentional. 2d6 produces a bell curve probability.

[@kurgon1976]

meh, i'll stick with #Dungeon crawl classics

[@shoulung6203]

1. I disagree with the idea that these are the only four classes you need. The same could have been said if someone had thrown a paladin, monk, barbarian and sorcerer together. Anyway you look at it, someone is missing out on a flavor they like. 2. I enjoy crafting my characters from start to finish; I role play as a way to live out power fantasies and haphazard character creation doesn’t do it for me. There’s a reason the Hero system is one of my favorite character creation systems. Stop jamming up people invested in the game because some folks are too lazy to open a book. 3. There’s nothing wrong with cantrips; I refused to play casters until they were a thing. I can understand the appeal of Tolkien style magic, but this feels like it’s trying to make both ends of the spectrum happen. I’m a fan of a stamina resource that powers both martial and magical special abilities, which coincidentally also works well for other genres.

[@PsychedelicLasagna]

Low Fantasy Gaming gets looked over all the time. Shadowdark is probably a little more refined, but people always jump from OSE to FTD.

[@perdurabo56]

17:47

[@andykaufman7620]

Basically Shadowdark is DCC with something referred to as 'modern' or 'new school' game mechanics, like 'advantage' and 'disadvantage' which 5e players know, but with a firmly classic old school skeleton, akin to the other OSR games, but like DCC, which many of these videos frame Shadowdark as competing against 5e or gaining 5e players, but really it is competing directly with. In other words, shhh, this is top secret information but you can also buy and play Dungeon Crawl Classics. it's true, but you don't tell anyone you heard that from me. Shadowdark then is what we could call an OSR Clone rpg, that more so than the others, pulls mechanics and concepts from 5e. Yet, other than advantage and disadvantage what exactly is that? Don't know until we read it in depth. The concept of 4 core classes is not 'modern design', it is retro design, and really so is 'you die at 0 hit points' but it does say you die in 1d4+Con modifier, unlike the modern design of Death Saves which is one of the BAD IDEAS in 5e, and so this concept that new concepts and modern design somehow is 'better' which in fact is NOT true, and yet you'll meet a lot of people who hold this attitude that it is true. Keep thinking that, but we'll think of you as a person living in a fictional reality where you want something to be true, but we know it is not. That means 5e has what we could call 'problems' due to that modern design, and yes old school classic DnD had problems too, so each edition and game iteration has some level of issues, but when those issues add up to 'wow combat is taking way too long and this issue motivated me to find another system' that is when the problem is too deep, too much, and enough to switch to something else. In the end, Shadowdark is probably a solid game, but that does not mean other systems, other OSR systems are somehow not. In fact, I played Lamantations of a Flame Princess and though 'wow what a strange title for a game that basically is old school DnD, but with a few twists so it too does something very similar. The reality Shadowdark will compete with these other systems within the OSR space, but if it can bleed enough players from mainstream (5e) players it will have a good chance of forming a strong following. The reality though is players often play more than one system so that the same gamer will play this game AND other OSR games. I played OSE and I liked it, but I didn't like how Clerics don't get a spell at 1st level, but I did like how, say, Dark Elves got 'divine magic' like a Cleric and how they wrote up other classes, including classes like Acrobat and Knight. I also liked Dungeon World and how it worked. It too was very novel in its approach, and 'elegant' in the way the creator of this video would call some element he sees in Shadowdark, and let's be real Dungeon World, IMO is 'more elegant' in how it handles level raising as it gives you more choices, but not too many, has some cross over, like a Druid can take an advanced Ranger trait, and it is not random. Sometimes random works, and some players like random, but some do not, and those who do not won't like DCC or Shadowdark as much, or many of the OSR games, but a game probably like Dungeon World they would. But most gamers are not like that. Most gamers like or don't mind 'randomness' in their game, and in fact there is a core segment of gamers who love and want randomness. They like that you roll 3d6 (or 4d6) in order, that you roll for spells you get, or if you acquire another from a scroll with a DC 15 like Shadowdark allows or roll your hit points as these rolls, most of them at least and most of the time will be done in front of the group so everyone sees this and when you roll low, it counts, and when you roll high or extremely high it counts. That 'let the dice decide our fate' mentality then is the core of Classic Old School DnD and it is inherently FUN, or what is part of the fun generation operating in gameplay. Add the human element and that is why live gameplay with other humans with the random element is 'more fun' than most video games, maybe not all, but video games lack that, but of course, video games where you compete against other human players then adds that human vs human element, and thus simulates the same thing found in table top RPG. Either way I'll give Shadowdark a try, see how I like it, and I'm sure it will be good stuff, but it is not unique, or the best, or even the game for everyone. I'd say if you are in doublt only back for the PDF only, or wait and down the line snag a free pdf somehow. They will eventually turn up or your GM or friend will have one. That's how I got to play some games. I played in them without know what the game is, as a player, but got to see the pdf for the game. Look over at least player related stuff and IF I liked what I saw, I went out and bought the stuff. I tried before I bought. That is the best piece of advice, as it will let you know if you really like this game without feeling regret from a purchase, and if you buy a lot of it, a sizable regret. I have seen enough of Shadowdark, played enough OSR to know I will like Shadowdark so I did back the Kickstarter and apparently so did a lot of other people, and they seem to be wanting to form a new company that will compete directly with Goodman Games and WoTC, so any backers are helping build a fledgling company like early-days Judges Guilde or TSR. Plus you get a spiffy book or LE edition book. In case your curious I initially did the 29 dollar pdf only, later backed for the 109, and then later for the 159 pledge getting two books, one black cover, one green as it is 50 percent off, and that means if I have players one book can be shared by players until they decide 'I like this game and I want my own copy'. So having an extra rule book is not a waste of money, when you demo the game and play with people who are new to that game. The only downside, is Errata. I backed another kickstarter for an RPG game Ascendent and a year later they are doing a reprint due to being out of copies to sell, but turns out there is a bit of errata in the book, including rules clarification and updates and in that kickstarter it would have been BEST to get the PDF ONLY, avoiding this fate of shelling out 120+ dollars for a book and other material where you end up re-buying the core book just to get the new cleaned up errata free printing. This happened with Mutants and Masterminds. Sot he Wisdom of the Gods is, don't buy first printings of books, and doing so will shield you from this fate. I threw that wisdom to the wind by backing for physical Shadowdark books. I have a feeling i might regret that but let's be hopeful it is not something I will regret. I know for a fact a game like this will see a second printing, most likely on Kickstarter, about 100 percent, and when/if it does we shall see a new updated printing. So I hate when I like a game enough to throw out the good advice. It is not all bad having a first printing. You can update your copy by taping in errata in strips, and I suggested that they create a stricker sheet if/when the new printing happens so people can update their copies (at least most errata).

[@andykaufman7620]

A better solution if YOU love 5e just modify and leave out things you don't like. If you don't like how 5e is not as 'deadly' don't use Death Saves. Take a concept like Roll the Body from DCC and problem solved. Write down your grievances with 5e, discuss as a group what you don't like and how you propose to change it. You are house ruling, and home brewing' 5e essentially. But if you on top of that don't like the WoTC changes like to Beyond DnD or OneDnD or whatever they call it. That might be another reason to find another system. It's up to you. Personally, I didn't like how some magic spells work in 5e and other spells I like better than older pre-5e versions. For me then it is a give and take. 5e has a baked in limit on magic items, and that in the past was something mostly homebrewed and house ruled, so now it is 'official' you can have 3 dedicated magic items. Done for balance, and I like how Wands and other items with charges work so they have say 7 charges that re-charge daily with a random number of new charges. I like that. So 5e has some good new fundamental changes you can take back to OSR' games and update. If you say 'no I don't like a Warnd of Fireballs have that, as it means a permanet Fireball factory within my party. I can see why you might want to not have the 5e approach to how charges for items work. It might be more like 'why did you give them a Wand of Fireballs GM?' Instead hand out Scroll with Spells that are consumable, or can be 'learned' adding that spell to the spelllist, but since 5e has a default assumption that all the spells of a given level are 'on the list', the better solution is limit that. Don't allow all those spells on the list. Force spellcasters to randomly roll for the starting spells and adventure to find additional spells, or acquire them through trade or other means Then if/when they find that scroll of spells with Fireball, now they have it, and if they ever find another, they have an extra casting of Fireball waiting to be cast without having a powerful Wand of Fireballs.

[@andykaufman7620]

Notice how he mentions OSR, OSE but does not mention Dungeon Crawl Classics, another game that takes classic DnD, adds modern elements, and a couple novel elements to function the same as a game like Shadowdark. I'd say the only way Shadowdark is more 5e like is it incorporates a concept like 'advantage' rolling two die, taking the best result, or disadvantage, its opposite, but then combining that very 'modern DnD' concept and on par with 5e, but with the OSR concepts, and minus the 'bad' elements of 5e, like Death Saves and the fact it takes so much to 'kill' a player, whereas Dungeon Crawl Classics has 'roll the body' (except not for 0 level characters). Plus many elements of 4e and 5e if you look at them take concepts and mechanics ideas from non-DnD like Supers RPG's, such as how "minions' operate. So clearly DnD's modern foundation rests on non-DnD rpg concepts.

[@perdurabo56]

8:30

[@andykaufman7620]

Look at Shadowdarks weapons: 11:45 notice how Shortbow does d4 damage but Longbow does d8? Crossbow does d6. WTF is up with that. Crossbows generally do more, and Shortbows should IMO do d6, if you want to make Longbows do more, fine d8, but Crossbows need a similar treatment such as Hand, Light, and Heavy Crossbows, and if you want a distinction: d4 (Hand), d8 (light) or standard Crossbow, and d10 crossbow, but then I like the idea of 2handed rule in DCC where if you take a crossbow you roll d16 for initiative so you potentially go slower. Yet, if we don't use a rule like that and wanted we could say Crossbows are d8 same as Longbow but with different range categoreis, but notice how Shadowdark hsa Properties and among those are 2H (two handed) so what are the rules for 2Handed in Shadowdark and what does L mean for Properties. Long? Plus notice how some weapons are '2 slots'. A crossbow or long bow is 2 slots, it is clearly a bulky weapon. Yes, smaller 'hand' crossbows, or maybe a 'light crossbow' would not be, or a shortbow, so that taking a Heavy Crossbow or Longbow should take 2 slots.

[@andykaufman7620]

Why are you having a charity for African when there are plenty of needy people in the United States who need all those same things. That is a bit twisted, and seems like your being a 'good person' but in reality, actually your not. Just saying. The thing that made me vomit the most is the call for charity to African asking for lanterns to read by. Bigotry of Low Expectations High Alert. Someone might be steeped in a bit of CRT. Africans have electricity, and you will respond with 'but not in rural places. To which we shall respond that same is true of parts of the United States. And your point is.....

[@Cynidecia]

Not OSR, FOE NuSR.

[@rynowatcher]

Knave and Five Tourches Deep are complete games; they are made for dm's who like to make their own content and homebrew; a common thing that OSR games offer. More of a feature than a bug. I do not see much this offers; not saying this is a bad book, but I am not seeing who this is for or what it would give them. It is using 5e lingo to make an osr game with a lot of pre-made assets. People who who like 5e like the character building options and using modular assets (magic items, monsters, or gear that is different but equivalent) and do not genenerally like random builds. It has a lot of pre-made assets and definitely world build elements which osr gm's generally do not use because they like to hombrew. Granted, both groups are diverse, but these are things they are in the vast minority of both groups. Meh, do not get it.

[@robertwinslade3104]

I wouldn't say those are complete games; with those you basically HAVE to homebrew stuff completely from scratch because there are so many gaps. With Shadowdark there is enough there that you don't have to homebrew anything if you don't want to, but the rules are simple, robust, and modular enough that home-brewing is easy without risking breaking the game, while also being sparse enough that home-brewing additional content is incentivised.

[@rynowatcher]

@@robertwinslade3104 they are complete games; they are just simple games. The osr emphasizes creativity and home brew as a feature, not a bug. There are a lot of "one page rules" games because it is assumed the dm can figure out the rest in play. In example, they do not give you specific monster stats, but they give you rules and examples on how to make monsters because the type of people that like osr games tend to heavily home brew. Heck, Knave includes a word doc with all the text of the rules so dm's can rewrite the rules however they want and Ben specifically encourages the dm to do this to make the game fit in whatever way they want to. The philosophy of most osr games is less rules give more options. Having a rule for everything defeats that aim. Check out the Questing Beast channel to get a perspective of what I am talking about; listen to him describe some of the more less known games and what he considers virtues.

[@VanDavis]

​@@robertwinslade3104 they're absolutely "complete games." All the rules to do anything you want are there. I think you're trying to say that you don't find a game complete unless it lays out a whole setting and concrete rulings for every situation.

[@robertwinslade3104]

@@rynowatcher I am very familiar with Questing Beast; and I am not knocking Knave by saying it is incomplete; I am well aware that it is by design and I actually quite like Knave as a chassis on which to base games, BUT, I would never play Knave on it's own without adding extensive homebrew content whereas Shadowdark I feel could be played without homebrew at all, but I probably would homebrew stuff anyway. In fact I feel more inspired to do homebrew for Shadowdark than Knave because the existing systems for spells, magic items, classes, and monsters provide a good basis to be able to quickly create homebrew content without having to commit too much time or effort to it

[@rynowatcher]

@@robertwinslade3104 osr style play generally has rules as a framework and leave a lot up to the dm to "fill in the blanks" from what was given. For instance, if you have a Bear's Stat block, you can make a yeti because it is just a bear with X; that X being up to the dm. Maybe my yeti has paralyzing vision and cold immunity while yours is weak to fire and has poison. The thing is, monster manuals are not a big thing in the osr because there is little incentive for an osr dm to use one. I cannot argue if you feel it inspires you, but that is up to individual people. I get inspired by long drives, but that does not make the long drives inherently useful to all people. I do not get it, but I do not need to. Like cell phone holders on belts, this too will just remain a mystery. To each their own.

[@andykaufman7620]

I like how he says 'OSR' gimmicks and trappings. 5e has a LOT of 'gimmicks and trappings'. I would say one of the biggest is the complete abandon of the concept of divisions of races. In 5e it doesn't matter what you play. A whole group might be full of a huge variety of characters, a Hobgoblin, a Gnome, a Goblin, and you might not find a human in there. So having a real human would be having Inclusion and Diversity in your group, or at least that is the joke the players might tell if a player shows up with a human character. Then you get clearly non-OSR experiences like playing an old school module like Ravenloft or Amber Castle where the player characters won't be remotely human, so imagine two Bugbear rolling around Bavaria fighting Strahd, and the game posits that most people are human, and demi-humans are frowned upon, and that you can play demi-humans but be prepared for 'issues'. Bugbears are MONSTER races and as such if playing a game like Ravenloft, or rather Curse of Strahd the mostly human Bavarians won't perceive them as anything but monsters, Humanoids. The Old School lore, like Gnomes and Kobolds are 'enemy' races or if you wish Goblins too or maybe you can say Dwarves and Goblins so the concept that they are traveling in the same part. Sit and imagine Lord of the Rings, which if you don't know this, original DnD is largely based on the CONCEPTS within Lord of the Rings, though it includes other fictional authors and their settings too, but LOTR is a foundational one, and we know how Orcs and Goblins are in LOTR, so imagine a Goblin or Orc traveling with the Dwarves and Bilbo the Hobbit with the Orcs and Goblins of Middle Earth. It would be silly or rather it would need to modify and completely transform the attitudes of the Dwarves and the Goblins (or Orc). That transformed attitude is a prime foundation for 5e. That is extremely Un-DnD like, and antithetical to classic DnD. That is why when players thumb through the book they pick all these funky races and choices for classes that clearly would not be allowed or in the original books. A dwarven Paladin is not that big of a stretch, but imagine then an Orc Paladin. That idea though was NOT created by WoTC, most of these modern ideas do NOT come from Wizards of the Coast staff. They come from the same people who created DnD, and the OSR, the community of real GM"s and gamers, and their 'home brew' rules and 'house rules'. Sometimes they took the time to make a new game. One such game I remember seeing at Gen Con and one of its selling points to get new players was 'you can play any race to play X class' so if you want to be a Gnome Paladin or Monk you can be. That concept is now incorporated into official DnD and did so when they made the switch to 4e and finally 5e I believe. Though 3e has elements of this too, but not like these later editions. Yes it means the House of Ideas is NOT found within WoTC itself, nor its creatives, who often codify the opposite approach. The real issue then is if you want to play a game with this multi-racial blending fine. Go for it, but does it need to be the default standard? I would say No, and instead a list of alternative paths the GM can take to set up their game. That means the concept of GM Allowed Races needs to be foundational. If you have Monster races, fine, if it makes sense, but are only under GM approval, and based on setting within the campaign world. It might make perfect sense to have X race given the setting. For example in the OSR there is the Dolmen wood and in that setting there are something like Beastmen' which I think are like Goatmen of sorts or Satyrs, so that is a viable PC race, but also there are farie and fae, and Elves, and Humans, and the Humans and Elves are not natural allies, so it is sort of like LOTR where there is tension between human and elves or dwarves if they were there. In this way the GM can choose a list of acceptable player character race choices and the default assumption is NOT 'anything is ok'. Of course, a GM is free to say 'everything is OK' and then ti is, but let the GM decide this rather than push an agenda, like WoTC clearly does through its writing, art, and other published materials. Plus the OGL change I got a sense was for WoTc to have the legal power to shutdown or modify takes on DnD that they fell don't adhere to their ideological biased and zealot view. They don't like classic DnD's selective nature of race, and how it is not open and interchangable as one of its core 'gimmicks and trappings'. If the DnD community and its creators had published under the new OGL then we'd have seen WoTC go after many of the OCR citing 'racism, sexism' and the other Isms as grounds for creatively taking over their published products as the OGL allowed for that. WoTc is run by "not good people' masquerading as 'good people' so to speak. That's the reality. They are not a 'live and let live' community. If you want to find Intolerance just look within WoTC and the wider 5e community and you shall find it. That inolerance and lack of inclusion or diversity though is coming from the DEI crowd itself. That hate is real too.

[@bryankelly3647]

All the shameless PLUGS for this game 🤮 ZERO objectivity. Why is it every DM with a channel exposes themselves as a total SELLOUT? Everybody’s gotta get in on the old school REBOOT cash-grab. So much for journalistic integrity.

[@conaldarssword2499]

Overhyped as D&D 4th

[@itzybitzyspyder]

The players who understand the rules should not be hampered by the tourist. If they get bored using cuting words then maybe they should play something else or get good.

[@gensweekends3648]

Bro spends half the stream just ragging on African kids

[@elaineabreu282]

I was confused as to why you mentioned that the mismanagement of a woman caused tsr downfall...until I found out that one of the creators of this project is a woman. That is as far as I made it on this video.

[@Zotob1975]

A Frankenstein of rules taken here and there. No innovation.

[@jcraigwilliams70]

When you listen to your favourite musician, sometimes you want them to release a new album, while other times you can appreciate the "Greatest Hits" collection. There may not be much in the way of innovation, but some people like the collected bits and enjoy the presentation. And some just want to support an independent creator.

[@Zotob1975]

@@jcraigwilliams70 Shadowdark is not my favourite musician, is just a cover band

[@jcraigwilliams70]

@@Zotob1975 but some would say this cover band is better than the original.

[@Zotob1975]

@@jcraigwilliams70 sounds weird and I don't think it will happen but in the event that it does, I don't think the cover band deserves the success of the original band.

[@jcraigwilliams70]

@gianfranco bux yeah, but who knows? As many have pointed out, it's essentially a collection of house rules. There's not really anything that you couldn't come up with on your own, but some people just like how it was all put together. I forget which reviewer used this analogy, but they said it's like a chocolat chip cookie; it uses all the familiar ingredients, but how you mix them together gives you a somewhat different recipe. I think that's a pretty good way to describe it. I like Shadowdark, OSE, 5TD, and others. They're all chocolate chip cookies, but each tastes a bit different.

[@perdurabo56]

17:27