Gameplay is the Story

[@kevindoris4241]

Tomb Raider had the biggest Cut scene game play dissonance I have ever seen. In the cut scenes she is a scared inexperienced college aged girl. In the game she kills 20 armed men with a bow and arrow like its nothing. Cut Scene Lara and game play Lara are completely different characters

[@shawklan27]

Plus she doesn't panic when she's underfire during any of the earlier parts in the game unlike what any person would if they were ever put into a fucked situation like that

[@Avrelivs_Gold]

the opening face was really like good old Lara the game face is so dumb... i hate the reboot

[@Dacho_Shaki]

I had the similar issue with The Last of Us when it comes to cutscene to gameplay dissonance. On one hand, as Joel, I had to protect Ellie and bring her to safety because she's a plot device important for the sake of manking because she has antibodies that are the key to create a vaccine. On the other, when I get to control Ellie, I was Ramboing my way through with an ease stealth killing one by one because she has an overpowered switchblade. And she's also packed with a bow and arrow.

[@misterproject8]

@@Dacho_Shaki I don't know, when I played through Winter, I felt pretty powerless. If you compare that section to the previous ones, Ellie has way less weapons and fighting capabilities than Joel, so naturally she must rely almost exclusively on stealth. Joel, meanwhile, can fight his way out of situations that Ellie simply can't.

[@B.E.3.R]

If you go for all the collectibles and tombs it's not that bad. I guess I saw those moments more as proof of Lara's humanity (we all make mistakes) than of cutscene incompetence because of that.

[@leafpratt]

This reminds me of COD WW2 where you the player kill a 100 Nazi soldiers some with a flame thrower and then in a cut scene the character you play kills a single man with a pistol and has a panic attack

[@marrvynswillames4975]

This also happens in Far Cry 3

[@ardart1613]

@@marrvynswillames4975 No it doesn't he only has a panic attack for the first guys he shoots at. And also in the finale he gets hard on himself for having to kill bad people he does not have a" panic attack"

[@coopergrow3722]

@@marrvynswillames4975 it makes more sense in farcry due to Jason being trained by the island and molded by it the finale kill is a realization of what he became/what he is.

[@KenTWOu]

It's kinda sad that a video called 'Gameplay is the Story' promising to explain how it could be done better was primarily focused on how to write cut-scenes around gameplay, instead of talking about narrative through game mechanics and offering examples of good gameplay setbacks like in already mentioned Mr. Freeze boss fight from Arkham City.

[@Rabaikal]

Or showing Half Life

[@Henrque123]

I'm here for that, dam... Yeah, Half-Life did it and companies still mess this up, and even if it's a cinematic game then Metal gear did it too...

[@cryofpaine]

Maybe we'll get a follow up "Story is the Gameplay" that focuses on that. I think both are great topics to explore - how do you respect the gameplay in the story; and how do you tell the story through the gameplay, rather than just cinematics.

[@InhalingAshes26]

Dark Souls (or SoulsBorne in general) is easily the best example of this. The gameplay mechanics and story and lore are all inextricably tied and inform each other. They're a shining beacon of the kind of experience and storytelling that you can only deliver in a game; deep and thematically rich and oozing with atmosphere, and also just incredibly engaging on a mechanical level.

[@Monti1999]

@@InhalingAshes26 i love how the mechanics like the blood vial in bloodborne, insight etc. are so deeply connected to the lore. Especially Insight blew my mind. 🤯

[@filmwiebe1703]

There was an amazing analysis someone put on youtube about why writing is so disconnected from Gameplay in games, and it boils down to the writers coming onto a project with limited time to create a story, and having some of the game mechanics/levels already in development. Sometimes, writers are kept separate from the devs and it means the games feel disconnected. There is a larger problem at play than just having bad writing, its rushed, isolated writing that is forced to fit the gameplay. Still, great video!

[@led-0185]

May I ask about whose analysis that was? I would like to watch it.

[@JZStudiosonline]

Sometimes they can write around gameplay mechanics or levels that later get scrapped, so they either just leave that stuff in there, or try and retcon it and make a new story beat.

[@noshow]

We call that a systemic problem! Makes sense.

[@mikeexits]

@@led-0185 Yeah, I'd love to know too. Commenting to show interest and get notified by any other replies. There's a really good video onthe problems with the Ratchet and Clank PS4 reboot called "How Ratchet Lost His Edge" by TheGamingBritShow (title is paraphrased and I may have fucked up the channel name)

[@filmwiebe1703]

@@led-0185 I found it! Its by the channel extra credits. Here's the link: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gXiUq5x5q7GegJI

[@GabrielShitposting]

I mean, Shadow of Mordor/Shadow of War, the Gravewalker can cannonically die to an orc and come back. Hell, your killer can taunt you, you can get revenge, they even get lines pissed or afraid as to how you beat them after they killed you. A nice system, since all those bosses are generated.

[@MicoSelva]

Prince of Persia: Sands of Time manages to avoid most of these mistakes with its time rewind mechanics and narrative frame (The Prince telling his story as a retrospective). All failures can be either immediately fixed by the player or are treated as a mistake of the storyteller.

[@FraserSouris]

Eh, There are instances of cutscene incompetence and "kill stealing" in SoT that are a main part of the story. So many fights and sections feel like "glue"

[@MistahJay7]

Warrior Within did it the best. The boss fights in that game were amazing and the dahaka chases as a little kid always had my adrenaline going

[@ExeErdna]

What's great about the whole trilogy they're also consistent with knowing The Sands of Time is busted and you're basically messing up the timeline.

[@GilCAnjos]

Also present in Assassin's Creed. When your Animus character dies, instead of the classic "You died" message, we get "Desynchronized". Because the protagonist already did all that stuff centuries earlier, you're supposed to do what they did

[@tsartomato]

by also being an ultra shitty game AND THEN THE KITTEN WOKE UP

[@AirLancer]

FF7: Aeris gets blown up, stabbed, or otherwise mutilated throughout the entire game in battles. It's fine, she can be revived with a simple Phoenix Down that you likely have dozens of. Also FF7: Aeris gets stabbed once through the gut, dies instantly, and no one even tries to revive her with a Phoenix Down.

[@UNGGodYT]

this is more a problem of terms , confusing words, the revive part of that item is not resurrection but revitalizing the body , is more like the smelling salts we use to wake up unconscious people , it dont bring dead people back . The damage part is a part of fantasy , no one would like it if it was permanent long lasting damage .

[@sam7559]

@@UNGGodYT damage could also be interpreted as like how Uncharted does, when she gets slashed the damage isn't from the slash itself but from her using her points to avoid injury or fatal damage

[@cryofpaine]

@@UNGGodYT i think of it as similar to the D&D "unconscious" vs. "dead". If you hit 0 HP, you're knocked out. You've sustained too much injury to continue fighting, but you aren't automatically dead. It's only if the damage falls below a threshold or you fail to stabilize (lose 3 death saving throws) that you actually die.

[@UNGGodYT]

i played some game where those terms were different , beyond the beyond where HP hits 0 you go groggy and use Lp (LIFE POINTS) to came back but when hp an lp are 0 is dead , can only be resurrect at the church but there is obliterated only at the capital and for a heavy price. in wild arms i remember one item saying it "revives" the character , but when one of the party fell and i used it , nothing happened , them i got one item that says that brings it back , so thats where i got that theory.

[@kestrel8838]

FF seems to make a distinction between being knocked out and being killed. There's this scene in Final Fantasy Tactics in which a character is beat down by a robot while another asks for a Pheonix Down, seemingly not for resurrection. It's a bit comedic, but the point still stands.

[@TheRealGuywithoutaMustache]

5:20 You make a good point about checkpoints basically just retconning the player's mistakes

[@uncreativename9936]

What's the other option though, requiring the player to accomplish everything on their first run?

[@jakechinn6561]

@@uncreativename9936 He does talk about how much of a paradox it is. The player is always able to win the gameplay but if they always win then the characters never loses. There are a couple of things the game can do but they aren't day to day things they are more situational. More scenes in games where a loss is a narrative loss. Using Tomb Raider rather then having her get jumped in a cutscene have her jumped in gameplay, set up a situation where the player is going to lose. Lots of games have that unwinnable battle at the start to set the tone. Or instead of having a cut scene where someone dies have them killed in gameplay. That way the Player can be incentived to exact immediate revenge, try to save them and relate to the character more. Immediately turn and start gunning down that ambush that killed them ect.

[@Zippyd00da132]

@@uncreativename9936 Doom's Ultra Nightmare comes to mind.

[@cupidknewrap]

@@uncreativename9936Some form of conditional in-game respawning. The player picks themselves off the floor at or near the point of failure with the enemies moved around a bit - as if a little time has passed. A friend shows up, drags them away from the scene while under fire then administers first aid. Even just an explicit respawn mechanism like systemshock of darksouls would be fine. The player is no longer a perfect badass and failure for narrative isn't a total mismatch. The other option is the nightmare of writing non-linear narrative; allowing for failure by giving it consequence and having the story take a path toward the finale based on that consequence....which this video is specifically not about.

[@SlickSkuddy]

uncreativename if the story was narrated the narrator could be like ‘wait that didn’t happen’ or in like Ultimate Spider-Man when you fall in water spidey crawls out of making a quip or complaint about what just happened. That happens in Gears 5 as well but only in multiplayer after you’re killed.

[@wulfgarpl]

Half-Life 2 intro is best cut scene of all time. Me throwing can at Combine is a canon.

[@AgsmaJustAgsma]

That, and fooling another Combine soldier with a jar of mayo.

[@baudsp]

It's also a bore to play and unlike the HF 1 intro, I can't just go afk and wait it's finished.

[@fistpump64]

megaman x1 losing vile was such an important moment for me with blinding gameplay and story

[@12manny34]

@@baudsp Then watch some Desinc and learn how to breeze through that section with bunnyhopping. You're in control, take advantage of it.

[@helohel5915]

@@baudsp just fool around with the AI, it can be pretty fun. Though hl2 ain't a game made to be replayed more than 5 times

[@stevethepocket]

Oof, that _Tomb Raider_ scene. I don't think audiences would have accepted that level of incompetence from a protagonist even in a non-interactive medium. Although, the "scene where the hero has the villain right where he wants him but then just stands there listening to him speechify about his plans and then gets captured" has happened so many times by now in movies that it's become a cliché, so maybe I'm overestimating the average moviegoer's intelligence and/or taste.

[@JZStudiosonline]

_"The guy has me on a silver platter, and he won't shut up!"_ _"Yammering?"_ _"Yammering! Going on about how the world will soon be his, yada yada..."_ _"You sly dog! You got me monologuing, I can't believe it."_

[@ticktock2000x]

If I were watching, for instance, "The Book of Eli" and Eli just stood there while the guys under the bridge kicked his ass, I would never have watched it again. The sort of story where plot armour is suddenly applied or dropped is inexcusable.

[@tsartomato]

all movies have terrible stories often also terrible plots nothing new here

[@gsd4104]

@GiRayne In a sense yeah, in another sense I agree with him. You've gotta think about it from the POV of someone who has encountered enemies in large numbers and has either mowed through them or has used objects and tactics to distract and overwhelm them. Then, there's *this* cutscene, where Lara has the jump on a group of enemies and just...doesn't do anything for a significant amount of time, and then takes a meh shot and gets captured. She doesn't appear to be considering her options, and it might just be the animation, but it doesn't appear that her emotions get the better of her and she freezes, she just seems to be gawking. It's kinda odd. That's my interpretation of the scene at least. The reboot TR games have a bit of a disconnect between the cut scenes and the gameplay through all three, having played all of them myself.

[@cryofpaine]

@GiRayne if you're going up against a group like that, stealth doesn't work. As soon as you take one down, you get swarmed. Your only options are either something that can kill many people in a short amount of time - automatic weapon or explosives; or something that can confuse them and split them up where you can stealth - basically explosives. The bow was dumb.

[@T-Flame]

Dragon Age: Origins had a nice sequence where there is a really tough fight right before a major event. It is possible to win the fight, but if you lose you are simply taken to jail and a small mission for your companions is launched where they have to break you out. It can go either way and the game doesn't end.

[@hyperteleXii]

On the other hand, DA:O also has your party characters and other NPCs constantly talk about how EVIL and horrid blood magic is, and then be completely oblivious to you using that very blood magic in combat under their very noses.

[@BessotenJenny]

I can't count the number of times I played a perfect mission in Xenoverse 2 only to have the cutscene come on and show my character looking like they've been beaten to hell and the enemy I just trashed be perfectly fine and giving some kind of "Is that all you've got?" speech.

[@mrluthfians01]

Yeah, i hate that kind if shit too

[@mrluthfians01]

Jrpg have lot of those

[@JOZSEP]

I recently got fire emblem three houses and the characters within the cutscenes wonder if war is ever justified and how awful violence is.... Then the gameplay starts and they celebrate and cheer every time they kill someone and brag about how their completely destroyed their enemy because they're really strong... Like what?

[@kilroy6429]

If a protagonist fails in a cutscene, it shouldn't be because they're incompetent, it should be because the Villain is more competent.

[@kilroy6429]

GiRayne what I mean by that is, if one moment the protagonist is actually good at anything, the player shouldn’t be forced to lose, what is essentially offscreen, because they are the protagonist

[@SonicBadass]

@GiRayne But you could simply solve the problem with the villain beating the player in gameplay.

[@user-ko2bq7bj8l]

@GiRayne you're playing a video game as lara croft ,you are lara croft in this game narrative should be following player action instead of forced cutscene those are for movies where character have mind of their own , in game you're the mind behind character actions so these forced stupid cutscenes doesn't make any sense

[@jinkisaragi874]

@GiRayne There is even a word for that. ludonarrative dissonance, which descrides the conflict between the narrative in gameplay and story. And i argure that you don't need to make sure that the conflict isn't there at all but there should be some sort of consistency between these two things. For example in Uncharted you mow down enemys wave after wave like there is no tomorrow but in cutscenes Drake is always the good guy without a doubt and even has problems with way less dudes then he has in gameplay. Same with rpg's like Tales of the abyss were Luke kills everything that moves in gameplay but in the story he can't mentally handle killing one nameless soldier. It dissconects the player, like in the example you gave lara can kill 30 guys with a riffle in Gameplay like you said, ofc we don't need to see how she does that in a cutscene without a reason at least, now i didn't played Tomb raider but if the same lara in a cutscene struggles with two dudes then i have a problem with that. A game that perfectly balanaces gameplay and story is DmC 3, you see Dante surfing on enemys , taunting them, runing on walls etc. And you do the same stuff in gameplay. This makes you feel like you play as dante compared to something like Uncharted where you are the indestructible force of nature in gameplay and Nathan drake in cutscenes.

[@jinkisaragi874]

@GiRayne Yes i know these big words always sound like someone tries to act smart and smug , i also don't like them that much but i feelt like that this might be a good way to explain my problem with Story telling in games, i hope you don't feel like i was trying to insult you or anything. Like i said i didn't played the modern TR games ( even though they look like fun) and i must have misunderstood what you were saying. It sounded like you mean that there has to be no consistency between gameplay and cutscenes, which is the big gripe i have with the uncharted series. But you made clear what you mean and i agreed with that even in my original comment , ofc we don't need 100% consistency but i really appreciate when there is at least not a giant conflict between the 2.

[@amandajas6287]

I was going to praise a positive example of number 7, since in Jedi: Fallen Order, if the player does well enough with the first boss fight, it just ends. If the player fails, it similarly ends. The player is not punished for failing a supposed-to-fail fight. Unfortunately, they then make the number 7 mistake later on, so six-steps forward, half a dozen back.

[@DoctorShroom]

1:35 If this actually happened either her or the guy's arm would have been carried by Lara's momentum swinging by his arm like a lever and chopped in half, or at least horribly mutilated by the jagged metal. 4:35 This doesn't look like Wolfenstein to me.

[@joecool385]

4:35 Good thing it's on the internet so we can remind Shamus about it. F O R E V E R.

[@nightmareTomek]

Thought the same about 1:35 when first played it. The jump is hollywoodified.

[@dlakodlak]

Oh, yeah. That fucking jump. The game was revealed with this in a trailer. And I was like "oh boy, is this how Lara dies? Dissembowled by torn structural metal beams of a ship? RIP, man." Storyteller, a second later: "NOPE LOL. I can has not fyzix! How do ya like dem boom booms?!"

[@gentlesirpancakebottoms6692]

The original Thief trilogy, especially Thief 1 and 2 excels at this.

[@brian0057]

This. So much this.

[@RaycerkGamer]

Me in my head: Dark Souls does this gameplay is the history very good and- The video: Don't say Dark Souls. Me: Oh, OK, sorry.

[@impossibleexperiments]

It's true though, DS doesn't need a cutscene to show you that capra demons or basilisks are hella scary, they just teach you through gameplay.

[@Lugbzurg]

So, anyway, Metroid Prime...

[@YouCantDeleteDenzelL]

Soulsborne in particular is just amazing at telling a story though the actual game play itself. It just gives you a bare bones concept and lets the players' imagination do the rest. I love this type of video game storytelling because it makes the player feel like the genius the game paints them as. It's funny I say that too because Miyazaki himself said that the reason Soulsborne games tell the stories the way they do was because he sucks at reading comprehension and relies on his imagination to do the rest. To me this is a sign of a secret genius willing to let the players' minds do the job. What a genius.

[@asdgashash]

Number 6 completely ruined white phosphorus sequence from The Line for me. I like how in Binary Domain the relationship building relies mostly on the gameplay. Not only do you get the the various endings from it, but throughout the whole game your squadmates will cheer for your multikills and kill streaks. It gave the combat incredible momentum, and pushed me towards the all around superior aggressive playstyle.

[@Habiyeru]

This is why I love the Half-Life and Portal series. There's rarely a moment where the player is taken away from gameplay. The player experiences the game only from the literal perspective of the protagonist and there is never a gap in knowledge between the player and the protagonist when it comes to the story. The story is all in each series' excellent worldbuilding and level design. When it comes to villains, a great way both of these series lets the villain monologue without inciting the "Just shoot him already!" moments that we so often get in forced cutscenes is by having the villain monologue from a place of safety from the protagonist, either via PA system or by having the protagonist literally bound and constricted. More games should take notes from Valve.

[@Xx_Oleander_xX]

valve is so good at this, I cant wait to see what they do with half-life alyx!

[@Evilwarts]

except that last monologue only happens because the game forces you inexplicably to strap yourself into an alien prison pod. Just as bad as having him do it in a cutscene in my opinion

[@John190assman]

Ohhhh ha ha. No buddy listen. Ever heard of Black Mesa East. Yeah. No.

[@otoyana]

The shit like this only possible within borders of corridor shooter games, where you can take action only in limited space, going straight through linear narrative.

[@nightmareTomek]

@@otoyana Not exactly. Shit like this is only possible when you don't wanna or don't need to show the protagonists emotions. But Lara growing up from a little girl to a badass, that's where you DO want to show emotions. And because of that it gets waaaay more complicated and there will always be someone unable to put himself in the characters shoes and complaining that his emotions don't align with the protagonists emotions.

[@MelonieMac]

I miss classic Tomb Raider when they based their stories around an artifact and sprinkled cutscenes in for impact, while delivering dynamic exploration gameplay that truly made you feel like you were on an adventure, all with a confident and powerful Lara Croft. Now the series is nothing more than a linear shooter gameplay with optional and easy tombs and focuses so heavily on being as dramatic as possible with the story that is based around Lara Croft's newly shoehorned daddy issues while constantly beating her up physically and emotionally and we are just supposed to watch her suffer. And yet they want to act like they "fixed" Tomb Raider and made it "progressive." 😑

[@dviper2093]

This is honestly one of the reasons why I love games like Armored Core Last Raven where as the main character not only do your choices affect the story, but also mission performance and completion. The game isn't afraid to just move on if you fucked up which makes the story flow very organically giving its six endings a ton of value as many of your personal choices and performances send you on a path that fits your actions.

[@GrohiikVahlokJul]

That sounds awesome

[@TheHeroBleeder]

4:36 umm that's Tomb Raider not Wolfenstein New Collosus.

[@mrf4ncyp4nts]

Oh boy I can't wait to berate shamus endlessly about this minor editing mishap in the comments

[@TheHeroBleeder]

@@mrf4ncyp4nts hey I was just trying to make sure he caught the error or not jeez.

[@NiGHTSnoob]

@@TheHeroBleeder He's just making a joke about how Shamus mentioned like a minute earlier in this video that people will endlessly berate him for the mixing up Rocksteady and Insomniac.

[@adnigcx]

Honestly, I think the error of him was intentional - it was right after he mentioned he got berated endlessly for the last error. Good joke ^^

[@MarsofAritia]

all these generic western AAA games look the same anyways. ;)

[@HenkkaArtGames]

This ties also to the disconnect between the gameplay actions and the character's story action on a more basic level. In Tomb Raider (2013) Lara is narratively a wreck after having killed someone but a few minutes later you, controlling Lara, are headshotting people left and right. They want to have this tedious story about "becoming the Tomb Raider" with all its growing pains and whatnot but at the same time we, the players, have been tomb raiders for almost two decades already and once the controls are handed to us and the gameplay makes it possible, we already are the Tomb Raider because there is no real game mechanic skill progression concerning how good Lara is at aiming a gun.

[@DracoDxl]

Yeah as much as I enjoyed that game, it always feels kinda silly looking back at how indifferent she was to murder while under the player's control, despite the emphasis on her first kill. I wonder if they could have fixed that by; instead of giving her the gun at the beginning and throwing a dozen enemies per minute at her - they'd just keep the initial encounters more grounded and have her refuse to use the gun unless absolutely necessary for a while, before slowly easing her into more desperate situations that continually harden her to the point that she's able to take a life with the casual-ness that the game allows for as it is now. I feel like that could have strengthened the narrative and story-gameplay cohesion but who really knows, that idea could make the game worse than I think it would haha

[@ExeErdna]

You're both right Lara was piss weak in cutscenes pretty much human. Yet gameplay o' girl was a monster which makes it worse when she keeps getting hurt over and over. Honestly, I remember I few folks being turned off at how fetishized it seemed with the cruelty they've put her through. Like wow give her a break...

[@roadent217]

@@DracoDxl I don't think people were really impressed when that idea was tried way back with Lester the Unlikely.

[@DracoDxl]

@@roadent217 This is the first I've heard of that game, thanks for bringing it up. I suppose it shouldn't be surprising that a game based entirely on the concept of the character not responding didn't really take off haha. Still though, I don't think what I've mentioned is quite as bad as Lester, you'd still be able to fight, she just wouldn't be able to headshot the first 5 enemies immediately after being shocked by murder haha.

[@Carlitonsp1]

Good stuff man, I feel like this puts a lot of ideas that have bugged me into a solid perspective. While I personally prefer the idea that the player and the player character are partners in a story they're participating together in, the player should be able to understand enough of the what the character is capable of. I have a theory that the focus on cutscenes is a game designers method of keeping their friends hired for a company when they're only needed for like 2 months of work, but that's silly.

[@cryofpaine]

I think the reliance on cutscenes has more to do with game developers not knowing how to translate these story moments into player driven gameplay.

[@Grandmaster-Kush]

DMC 3 the master of seamless gameplay and story, place cutscenes at the beginning and end, aswell as before and after bossbattles, the rest is pure gameplay.

[@Mekasoundwave]

DMC3 might be one of the best video game stories ever. It's fantastic.

[@Drakonflare]

@@Mekasoundwave How ironic that part of the reason I dropped DMC 5 was because of its incessant cut scenes.

[@Dragoon7895]

DMC 3 still has you fight vergil 1 and win, but lose in the cutscene. I was so mad the first time I played the game and that happened. Like, I fought this asshole so many times to finally beat him, and apparantly I lost?!

[@XDestroyoxZx]

DMC 3 also has a competent protagonist in cutscenes. You want to be cutscene Dante in dmc.

[@dedicateddark]

@@Drakonflare You should play on if you haven't. The cutscenes take a back seat after mission 5.

[@kabusohikaru6187]

I feel like the opposite of cutscene incompetence is also pretty bad, like when Snake uses CQC to take out a bunch of enemies in the beginning of Snake Eater, but the gameplay is a stiff stealth game that favours slow movement and ranged weapons to hand-to-hand combat.

[@vrubayka]

If played skillfully, it’s possible, the mechanics are there, it’s just challenging. Splinter Cell 1 though, some of the levels end in an action sequence even if the player ghosted the whole level completely. That ruins it for me and Splinter Cell Chaos Theory doesn’t have it, which proves again that it’s the best SC.

[@ExeErdna]

That's in-game incompetence/inconsistency where you're a badass off-screen and or in the cutscenes yet in game you're pretty weak.

[@asiamatron]

Reminds me of Leon Kennedy's grapple hook in RE4 that only gets used in a cutscene.

[@YouCantDeleteDenzelL]

Fucking Hideo.

[@R3GARnator]

Remember when the RPG mechanics in Knights of the Old Republic II were actually an important plot point?

[@cyberninjazero5659]

Kotor 2 to me is the game that did this best. All the Gameplay elements are a part of the plot and the gameplay itself is fun.

[@KYLgonk]

@@JoshuaRoberts_V Oh, they will. The first KotOR was developed by Bioware. A very different Bioware from Bioware nowadays. KotOR 2 was developed by Obsidian. No way any EA studio of today can make a game with that kind of storytelling.

[@gentlesirpancakebottoms6692]

@@KYLgonk I feel the same way about your statement. They are going to ruin Kotor.

[@MrDrManPerson]

I have been playing system shock 2 recently. So far, the gameplay is the story. There has only been like 2 cutscenes so far.

[@hanks_2210]

You... Liked... Turn based combat?

[@cyberninjazero5659]

@@hanks_2210 It was not as awful as the usual implementations in that it made itself function as close to Real-Time Combat as possible. I at least find it superior to Morrowinds combat (Though if the series returns I would heavily prefer it adopt the FF7Remake's gameplay)

[@dededoritos]

It's a bless that you make such interesting videos and that they come online more than twice a year!!

[@williamwashburn7665]

11:30 this also makes no sense given that Spidey senses exists no one should be able to sneak up on spider Man except for venom who's immune to Spidey sense

[@TheSpongyMallard]

This was a great video. It makes me love Arkham City and Mass Effect 1 even more.

[@NorthernDruid]

Kingdom Hearts 2 does the "defeating the boss in a cutscene" thing actually really well in it's final boss. The final boss puts you in a QTE sequence, utilizing prior established gameplay mechanics used in normal gameplay, which transitions smoothly into a cutscene where you beat him. After the cutscene you regain control of your character, the boss is floating in midair stunned by your attack, and you only have to land the final blow to finish the fight. It's a pretty functional way of having your cake and eating it too. You defeat the boss in a cinematic QTE->cinematic cutscene, and then you land the finishing blow as normal.

[@sterling7]

SPOILER for "Wolfenstein: The New Colossus" TNC is also an extremely weird case in as much as, well, it *heavily* dangles before the player the possibility that the hero didn't actually survive his execution through the combination of luck, ally intervention, and science-miracles the game presents. That he is, in fact, dead... And the nazi-slaying rampage he goes on subsequently is either some kind of hallucination or the afterlife. (Combine said rampage with the decadence he gets up to during his birthday party back on board the submarine, and you very much have all the components of many depictions of the Norse afterlife of Valhalla... Combine that with the fact that "Valhalla" is the password for the Nazis' entire electronic security apparatus, and it begins to seem like an uncomfortable coincidence.) ...And then they released Wolfenstein:Youngblood, which seems like it more or less over-writes that whole branch of thinking. "Nope! It happened just like you saw it. We're all good."

[@andrade9172]

The game foreshadows many times that the thechnology exists, the cat-monkey thing was even in trailers. I think this hole after life stuff wasn't intentional

[@sterling7]

@@andrade9172 it's certainly possible that he's alive and well. But there's also a scene where he reunites with Anya, and asks how they escaped Frau Engel's trap. She replies, vaguely, that they had "a few tricks up their sleeve." He then asks, "Is this real? Or am I in heaven?" ...She never answers him. I don't think the ambiguity was unintentional.

[@Cythil]

@@andrade9172 Yeah without that foreshadowing one would have rejected it all fully I think.

[@The_MarTyNi]

I'm so glad I found someone who sees the problems in videogames as I do! Especially the story/narrative problems in this case... I've been put off by so many games and sometimes I know why and I can put it into words but sometimes I just know I don't like it but can't explain why. I'm glad you were able to sum it up so nicely and even though there are more problems that writers make when it comes to story-telling this is a great start! Keep it up!

[@HYDRARMOR]

Dishonored series is a great prove to "Gameplay is the story" thing

[@Nace369]

Or the Thief series, which Dishonored took many cues from.

[@gonzaloc4711]

Half Life too

[@UnfamiliarIntimacy]

Augustine Czech That's because Dishonored's narrative is fundamentally a part of its gameplay. Dishonored is a story about the abuse of power, about what a man who's been granted powers by a god should use his power over others for. Tomb Raider of the Survivor timeline isn't comparable because it doesn't have an overarching theme but rather is a game trying to tell a story. Considering direction matters when trying to critique a game.

[@DaoistYeashikAli]

you are a man of culture

[@arthursimsa9005]

Not really. The second opus has dumb redundant cutscenes, a main character who does not shut up and the worst intro ever.

[@SirHardMetal]

AAA Devs already have trouble making good gameplay and you want them to tell good stories ?

[@nightmareTomek]

A good game depends on a good story. But it's all up to the creativity of the devs.

[@ShallBePurified]

Actually, I shot all the cult members with fire arrows. It caused a chain reaction where they just kept setting each other on fire. So actually, the bow was the perfect weapon for that situation and you can't change my mind.

[@Sophie_the_Sapphic]

12:51 it's funny, you say it's a good example of that, but every time someone wants to critique arkham city it's always "the story only exists because batman didn't counter the attack"

[@FraserSouris]

Anton Duroj Bidstrup It’s proof that there’s no easy solution, either Batman always counters and there’s no story. Or he doesn’t and there’s a flawed one

[@Dreadjaws]

To be fair, there's a clear difference between investigative Batman and combat-ready Batman. In the first one Batman is more worried about examining the environment, so he's more vulnerable to surprise attacks, while in the second one he's more aware of his surroundings in order to prevent attacks more easily. While the game doesn't call this difference out loud, the gameplay makes it obvious, as the camera pulls back in combat mode to give a more ample view, signifying Batman's awareness, while in normal mode the camera is set closer to give a more detailed view of the environment The point is: Batman only gets caught off-guard when he's distracted with something, which is entirely reasonable. In the first cutscene, he couldn't expect an attack from Joker from behind because he's seeing Joker in front of him. In the second one, he's busy analyzing a clue in an empty rooftop, so his entire attention is set on it. Now, if Batman had decided to just stand there doing nothing while a bunch of goons show up from behind and clock him then yes, this would be a perfectly reasonable complaint.

[@LP1ToTheEndOfTime]

Pretty much like the Prince of Persia The Sands of Time where the whole story wouldn't exist if the Prince rewind the time just a couple of seconds after he opened the hourglass .

[@WestPictures]

Thanks for including Borderlands 2 in there. It was very frustrating to have the New-U stations be Hyperion tech despite them being your enemy during the entire game. It would have made way more sense to make them unearthed or abandoned Dahl tech.

[@xthegrim]

The algorithm needs to get it's crap together and get these videos out there, these are all so directly on point.

[@goldengoldy0197]

I enjoy Platinum Games and DMC cutscenes because the main character (and by extension the player) is shown as an absolute badass, but in gameplay a noob will probably stumble and die a lot. The cutscenes serve as some sort of "Goal", Like the "you" in cutscenes is what the "you" in gameplay strives for, and with enough practice and using all the tools the game allows, you absolutely can become like the badass the game expects you to be.

[@vmfvictor]

thank you for writing, editing and recording this without saying the dreaded word "ludonarratie dissonance". seriously, you have no idea how much I hate that word.

[@JFrameMan]

you forgot the most important part: cliche phrases that are clearly unoriginal derivatives of famous movies, spoken in the exact same tone. Also, half life and portal already showed everybody how to do it right yet they never learn.

[@FraserSouris]

JFrame Half Life has its own problems with its approach. Cutscenes may be happening while giving the player control but they’re unskippable. It also Uses the “glue” thing as well

[@SuperInu]

@@FraserSouris Additionally, when the player has complete control during a cutscene event like in Half-Life, it's possible for the player to miss something important by looking in the wrong direction at the wrong moment where in other games, the POV would focus or at least hint at it.

[@Lugbzurg]

I hate being stuck in a room, listening to people yammer. Half-Life's "cutscenes" are a bore chore.

[@NiGHTSnoob]

I still think my single favorite cutscene of all time is from Metal Slug 3. You just killed the enemy general who's totally not Hitler. BAM HE'S AN ALIEN IN DISGUISE. BAM REAL NOT HITLER'S TIED TO A SPACE SHIP IN HIS UNDIES. BAM YOU'RE CAPTURED BY ALIENS. Total curveball that surprises both you and the characters, makes perfect sense as to how you got captured, and then actually has a tangible game effect as Marco (or I believe Tarma if you were playing as Marco) runs in to try and stop the kidnapping and grabs one of the enemy army's space ships to go after them taking over as the player's character, and it all goes by in less than a minute. Then later in the stage clones of your previous character that got kidnapped become enemies so which clones you fight is entirely dependent on who you were playing as, then when you rescue your previous character they show up in the final boss battle to help you out. For an arcade game with very little in the way of cutscenes or story Metal Slug 3 manages to absolutely knock it out of the park with that whole sequence.

[@DonLasagna]

Phenomenal video! It can seem pretentious, but a lot more developers should consider the way gameplay and story interlink as important as the cutscenes and dialogue and plot itself.

[@pintail102]

The writers could do well to emulate Fallout one, two and New Vegas, especially New Vegas on how to merge story line and game play.

[@dlakodlak]

And how to tell story without cutscenes (except for short intro)

[@Stallnig]

some of your earlier videos had me fooled this would be just another "cutscenes have no place in games" video, but you sure made a lot of good points.

[@VikingSchism]

Well if we're not meant to mention Dark Souls, how about Sekiro? Sekiro features a massive setback early on that happens almost entirely through gameplay - it is possible to beat that fight and still have the setback occur, but in practice most players won't beat it their first time through

[@maj746]

I can't believe this. I just finished Tomb Raider 2013 and this guy uploaded and started the video with it.

[@yaterodst]

6:10 "Dont @ me on Dark Souls" Me - "HES A MIND READER"

[@tardigrade8019]

get the tinfoil hats

[@Lugbzurg]

Ok, then. Demons' Souls, it is.

[@drbugbait]

I find it funny that Valve had this all figured out back in the 90s when Half-Life first released, and because of their design, the half-life series is one of the most engaging stories in gaming.

[@julian11able]

Your personality really comes through in a genuine way even though it is clearly meant to be entertainment. I enjoy listening to some as sophisticated as you because I can actually learn new things from you.

[@Yarazin]

Thanks Shamus, I really appreciate these videos and blogs, they do a wonderful job articulating how I feel about some of these game decisions. One example that drives me crazy is SWTOR. I love the game (and most BioWare games) but I always get so angry during the fights with Arcann. I am kicking his ass, then a cutscene starts and he suddenly mops the floor with me. In one, my toon gets ran through. So many of that kind of things in Bioware writing theses days maybe even before Kai-lame

[@grantmurdock7385]

So I've been playing a game called Hades, and if there ever was a golden example of how to make setbacks part of the story, it's that. Each setback pushes the character back to the start, and the characters respond accordingly. Things change, and the next attempt is different for it. Using a roguelike game in this way is the kind of clever business I'd never considered. And I love it.

[@fyrentenimar]

I've always wondered if the fact that the hero waits for the bad guys to act first is to give legitimacy to the kill as "protection" or "self-defence", which are more heroic, instead of "opportunistic ambushes" or "backstabbing a defenceless opponent", which would be the domain of a villain.

[@ThrottleKitty]

Outward, while having a super basic story, is an amazing example of "gameplay IS story"! So many interesting things the story does and ways it goes based entirely on what you do, and it even reacts if you die narratively.

[@DanielVSL]

Worst offender is Max Payne 3. You can't walk more than 3 steps before a micro-cut-scene halts game play, just to show Max going trough a door and to top it all off, the game also insists on anoying the living crap out of you by switching your weapons around,

[@Lugbzurg]

Doesn't that game also have a lot of cutscenes of Max more or less crying about how much he hates all the killing, and just wants it to stop, but in the gameplay, he just kills everything?

[@Sercil00]

@@Lugbzurg He's also just generally berating himself for being a bumbling idiot who never thinks anything through and just keeps making things worse. Or just going places without a plan, having it go horribly wrong and then berating himself for not having a plan. But he never changes that. Also, I hate the parts where you're supposed to explore the surroundings, but you have a follower AI who constantly berates you for wasting time, so you're not sure what the game wants you to do.

[@xthegrim]

Fantastic work, when you talked about character development and having the protagonist fail properly I thought about when Gordon freeman got jumped in half-life one and how mind blowing that was at the time.

[@Yeehim]

The Witcher has some excellent execution on a lot of the points here.

[@Yeehim]

@Caleb Imrie Found that guy.

[@leafpratt]

@Caleb Imrie how is it not an rpg

[@FraserSouris]

Szhival Eh. It makes mistakes here and there. There are cutscenes where Geralt makes silly mistakes and times where he “kill steals”. Many fights and quests are pretty irrelevant in the game

[@zupremo9141]

@Caleb Imrie it's an ACTION RPG game not RPG game. noticed how ACTION came first before the RPG? and you not liking it doesn't mean anything, the AWARDS and SALES NUMBER speaks for it self.

[@HenkkaArtGames]

@Caleb Imrie I was surprised by how little RPG there is, especially in the third game. When I played the third one all the dialogue felt mostly just "options to know more" rather than a chance to make any kind of decisions about anything story-wise. It was also kind of weird that as a third entry in the series it felt like starting at 1st level with a new character what comes to his abilities. I would have thought that since you already develop the characters skills and abilities quite far in the first game, the games that came after it would sort of pick up where the first game left. Hell, 20 years ago Baldur's Gate did that where you could continue your save game from the first one instead of starting "fresh" and if you did, you had a head start with additional XP. Not to mention that due to how the levels work in The Witcher 3, the regular guards are way more powerful than Geralt even though he is supposed to be this famous swordfighter, stuff of legends. This in turn begs the question: since the town guards and Nilfgaardian guards in general are so powerful, why don't they go out and deal with the monsters? If Geralt is able to deal with a griffon in the starting village in TW3, then a group of Nilfgaardians should have no problem dealing with it either.

[@DeadwingDork]

God I played 2013 Tomb Raider for free and I want my money back. What a perfect example of "ugh, modern gaming".

[@NiGHTSnoob]

I watched the opening cutscene, called half of Lara's predictable dialogue, turned it off. Then came back the next day with no expectations and was somehow still let down.

[@dc7981]

Tomb raider 2013 and Bioshock infinite are the definitive "honeymoon phase" games

[@kieru6061]

Monster Hunter Cutscenes. You play as a literal hunting god of apocalyptic monsters but this monster your about to kill "needs its moment" so you're either going to do nothing while it tries to kill your ally or you are going to forget how to breathe properly so it can look slightly intimidating before you kill it in under 10 minutes

[@JayTohab]

I think a big part of the problem is that a cutscene used to be the reward, not the game.

[@breathinginpizza]

Thanks for the video, also the outro chiptune you've made is nice 👍

[@hardeeharhar18]

You just nailed what I love and hate about videogames when I could not on my own. Thank you

[@baudsp]

got randomly linked to that video... I'm really missing Shamus...

[@KaliFortuna]

As always, love the content Shamus.

[@gilgamesh310]

Pathologic 2 features the best blend of story and gameplay I’ve ever seen.

[@moonman375]

i can tell you are getting much better at videos, i'm at the point i watch the video before reading the blogpost

[@kjvitor3125]

Damn, this guy deserves more subscribers

[@Upsetkiller456]

Gameplay is the story examples -Xcom Series -Darkest Dungeon -DMC series There's many more, list 'em here

[@teaser6089]

I love the Tomb Raider series I didn't have any problems with the cutscenes! I actually loved them tbh... I wanted a story game, not a gameplay only game ^^

[@SOUP_TO_GO]

Asura's Wrath did the monologue so good. Every boss gives a huge one, and you skip them by hitting the punch button and decking the boss mid-speech, starting the fight right there.

[@commentarysheep]

In my opinion, we could only achieve this kind of symbiotic marriage of gameplay and story if we try out a perspective in video games that is highly underutilised: the second-person perspective. The second-person perspective can be described as a more immersive version of the third-person perspective. The camera behaves the same as every single third-person camera angle seen in video games so far but there's a twist to it in terms of the lore: you, the one who follows every single step of the main character and control him/her throughout the adventure isn't just a random ghost man with a camera attached to his/her head, but rather the buddy, friend and companion of the protagonist. This requires the game designer to design the game in a way that the fourth wall never existed in the lore and it never would, because you don't just follow the main protagonist, you actually interact and speak with him/her and help him/her achieve his/her goals. You're not controlling his/her actions, you're just giving advice to him/her. You're also the part of the conversations that the other characters take part in, you're engaging with them in said conversations and make an impact on the game world through your dialogue choices. The best example for this kind of a game is a little indie wonder called OneShot, the very first puzzle JRPG made in the second-person perspective. It features all of the aforementioned characteristics, plus the fact that Niko, the main character doesn't solve the puzzles by him/herself (Niko is genderless, by the way), he/she always needs our help in puzzles. If you would like to try out a second-person perspective game, OneShot is an excellent starting point.

[@AB-ii8st]

Just found your channel. You have really good analyses. Subscribed.

[@kaleknelson8429]

The solution is simple just impractical. Write multiple stories. The developer has complete control over how the player succeeds and fails, and it's simple to write a story that follows the successes and failiures. The only read drawback is that it's time consuming.

[@saltyswede7875]

Really loving your videos man, keep up the good work.

[@TheOtakuKat]

The two games that I think get gameplay and cutscenes right is Devil May Cry 3 and Sonic Adventure 2.

[@SRUFUS3D]

Yes, I completely agree with you. Those games are underrated in that regard, especially the latter.

[@eryvac0074]

8:26 that scene always pissed me off, not only because we don't bother to do anything, but because the gunshot is aimed right at us, but we don't get hit, so it just makes it more obvious that we don't influence anything.

[@Sercil00]

I liked how Devil May Cry 5 handled a boss fight that you are not supposed to win according to the story. You're fighting the main antagonist of the game in the first level. You can hurt him, but you'll notice it's a boss fight you're meant to lose, and the story progresses once you do. However you can replay the fight with all your upgrades, once you're better at the game, and you can defeat him. It's just a little easter egg where you get a text saying that everything went according to plan, you defeated the bad guy and that's it. But still, it's nice to have. Usually, "unwinnable boss fights" either stop losing health at some point, or just trigger an unblockable super-attack if you get them low, or you got to beat them just to watch a cutscene where they kick your ass.

[@nathanlevesque7812]

Interactivity can take the pressure off of the story. Videogames can use experiences that only work if the audience is in control .

[@Arkanthrall]

Cut scene incompetence is the worst in JRPGs when after having defeated the bad guy he still manages to steal the Mc Guffin and gloats at you on top of that.

[@DrMadd]

A game that I think did a really good job of getting players to identify with the protagonists is Dragon Quest 11. At multiple points in the story the characters are put into a tough situation and their struggles are felt by the player as they also have influence on the gameplay. Characters lose their abilities that once made them so useful and you now have to adapt to having a much weaker party member.

[@adrianlopez3373]

Also, more yelling Shamus, it’s hilarious to hear you get riled up

[@BachBreaker8]

Rediscovered your channel recently and I gotta say I'm really liking your videos

[@toffotin]

The stuff about cutscene incompetence reminds me of this one cutscene in Mass Effect, can't remember which one. It was a meeting where the characters were discussing what to do about an enemy army, and that we also need an army or we don't have any change. And I'm watching the cutscene like "I AM an army! Send me!! I've single handedly defeated loads of armies by now".

[@cinnamonnoir2487]

Very interesting video, Shamus. I've seen a lot of recent games struggle with the problem of how to relate to the player emotionally through the medium of character drama. Writers often seem to forget that if a story is even mildly interesting then players will care about what happens to the characters, and that concern is an asset that can be put to good use. These stories have lots of twists and weird things that happen, so they're obviously trying to interest the player intellectually, but the emotional potential of the story just gets thrown away to make things simpler and easier to write. It's a little ironic that you keep going back to the 2013 Tomb Raider reboot, because that game actually _was_ built around a character arc for Lara that was supposed to engage the player's sympathy. Apparently no one realized that raising the character stakes also makes the player more annoyed when that same character does stupid things and fails for no good reason, which is something that happens _constantly_ in that game. The incessant punishment handed out to Lara and her friends in that game became so irritating to me that I completely quit playing after one of the more egregious cutscenes (the one where Roth gets a hatchet in the back and dies). Still, at least that game tried to relate to me on an emotional level. So many games these days, even the popular and critically acclaimed ones, barely do anything to make the protagonist relatable. Some of them have given us protagonists who are basically whatever the writer wants them to be at any given time (e.g. Metal Gear Solid V, Hitman and Wolfenstein); some have totally unlikable protagonists and brick-wall gameplay that makes it impossible for us to keep caring (e.g. basically anything by Rockstar besides L.A. Noire); and some cheat by barely giving the protagonists a personality at all and trying to yank the player's chain directly (the worst offender for this in my book is Undertale). Here's hoping that some of your criticisms make their way to the people who need to hear them the most. It's been a long time since a game from a major studio made me feel for its protagonist; I hope that changes soon.

[@iamxeracon]

I think the Metroid Prime games did this well. There is a story present if you scan around. There are cutscenes but they aren't intrusive.

[@manuelmoertl2077]

Elex and pretty much every Piranha Bytes Games does this pretty well in my opinion. The dialogues are more or less the cutscenes and it is all in-Engine. There are no loadingscreens and the immersion never breaks.

[@aminio0]

So... are Quick Time Events good or bad? Almost everybody complains about them, yet they seem like pretty good solution of combining the gameplay (or player's interactive input) and the cut-scenes.

[@aozora7]

QTEs are just a more annoying version of a cutscene.

[@BeNice108]

Quick time events are like most mobile games. They're just pretending to let you keep playing.

[@KenShackler]

I like Quick Time Events. Some things are simply impossible to tell without a cutscene and Quick Time Events make it more interesting. But the game shouldn't rely too much on Quick Time Events either.

[@mista_fur3346]

Anything that takes control out of the players hands is bad...I'm always getting frustrated with cutscenes saying "Can I play now?" It's why I mostly stick to online...if I wanted a story, I'd read a book or watch a movie/tv.

[@UnfamiliarIntimacy]

Zupka w proszku Depends on how it's done in my opinion. If you have a game series like the original God of War trilogy and you want the player to feel part of the action and scale of the scenes then they can be done well. But if you have those games where you put random ass QTEs nobody is expecting anywhere then they can ruin an experience.

[@grantlauzon5237]

Halo 4 Spartan Ops (and Halo 5) cutscenes have Spartans, Elites, and knights without energy shields even though that’s what made/makes Halo’s “combat evolved” in the first place.

[@raylast3873]

11:01 In Mass Effect 2: Arrival, you get a fight where the outcome is pointless because the indoctrinated science team will capture you anyway. So when you lose the fight simply ends and goes to the cutscene, although the game will give you an achievement depending on how long you held out for.

[@TacticusPrime]

That's why I like how the Shadow of Mordor series incorporates player death into the gameplay loop.

[@TrueBanditKing]

Good observation and feedback. I'll remember this insight. Thank you!👍

[@R3GARnator]

Spider-man is supposed to have his spidey-sense to keep from being snuck up on so easily. And to think that game was being praised as the new Geraldo.

[@Elias110194]

It's really maddening when you beat a hard boss, dies a bunch and then the cutscene shows the protagonist joking about how easy it was.

[@Tulemasin]

best story told by gameplay was in Dusk!

[@Snyperwolf91]

What i would prefer is different approaches with different results in the story . For example : You see a character is chained on a chair and cant get out of this situation . There are the points to what happens by interaction : A. You go to him and try to free him but a trap(hidden in the grass) triggers around your foot and you are captured by the enemy .The enemies laugh at you and you start later in a prison cell and must find a way to get out . B. You spot the trap and you go around it and freed the character which you can escape with and you fight out to your freedom . C. You choose to look around the place and suddenly you find a switch and a secret passage opens up . You freed the character ( While not getting captured by the trap ) and you are escaping with the charactere through this passage to fight later on a boss . Not only is the gameplay intact but the story changes too in a drastic way . And replay value is there .

[@AverageMooMz]

So you're telling me I should play Arkham City again.

[@shalindelta7]

Yes, and again, and again and again.

[@wakesake]

Cinematics killed gameplay