Shin Megami Tensei 4 - Neutral Route Final Bosses

[@Larserr]

I liked Lucifer's approach in this route, Merkabah was all like "you will be punished" and stuff, but Lucifer was just chilling like "dude do whatever you want as long as you have the power and resolve to back it up"

[@Mayhzon]

That's because it follows his philosophy. Think about it - In this game he stands for the order of the strong. Freedom is meant for those can overpower everyone else. Thus him being beaten by someone clearly stronger doesn't upset him. In a way, his philosophy is still intact and his narrative proven after all - The strongest party won and has the freedom to do everything. Meanwhile the philosophy of law is broken the second Flynn decides to "rebel" against god. All who do not obey god are immediately "sinners" and must be punished, since god views himself as absolute and omnipotent. He is extra upset when beaten, because it proves his narrative as false - Clearly someone omnipotent wouldn't be defeated by some "random schmuck".

[@TheAzuregreen]

To be fair even merkabah says "show to me your resolve

[@dewo277e9]

@@Mayhzon johnathan / merkaba does not openly accept that his ideology has been defeated, questioning what happened as if this was not part of what was planned. Walter / Lucifer does not openly accept that his ideology has been defeated, affirming what happened as if it were part of what was planned. they both deny their defeat, but while one dismisses the player's victory, the other tries to steal it.

[@bane2201]

@@dewo277e9 I think that Lucifer's statement "this cannot be" shows that he at least wasn't planning it. However, Lucifer's philosophy is to not suppress desires - the ability to fulfill desires (might) makes right. Flynn is mightier and uses his might to stop Lucifer's desires. Lucifer's philosophy "forces" him to accept his loss - it'd be hypocritical otherwise. After his defeat, Lucifer said that he'll see Flynn again after humans are no longer able to suppress their desires. Lucifer *can* and *does* accept his loss, but it doesn't leave his philosophy broken. Lucifer lost the battle - he still believes he'll win the war. He isn't trying to steal the victory in battle away from the player, he's only saying the player hasn't won the war. Merkabah wasn't able to accept his defeat because his philosophy is that God's light will overcome all. When he's defeated that contradicts his philosophy - God's light didn't overcome Flynn. Merkabah *can't* accept his incoming loss (partway through the second form) while maintaining his philosophy. Essentially, to live by their own definitions of "right", Merkabah can't ACCEPT his defeat and Lucifer can't DENY his defeat.

[@jakedge3]

"I just want my mountain dew." -True neutral.

[@dckillarobo]

Law: Peace at the cost of freedom. Chaos: Freedom at the cost of peace. Neutral: Morally sane but solution is temporary. Pretty good pros and cons if you ask me.

[@thegreatgmantheguy]

Peace is the other route in Apocalypse

[@TheMaestroMizerous]

But that's none of my business.

[@badisghouila8410]

Natural doesn't exist

[@keystonelyte]

@@badisghouila8410 natural? You mean neutral? Because there is definitely a neutral route.

[@fujinyumi5632]

Actually even if you choose law or chaos the solution is still temporary. People will eventually rebel against god in law and order will eventually emerge in chaos.

[@awkwardparakeet6217]

That hilarious moment when you own Merkabah with Lakshimi, Norn, and METATRON.

[@ApexGale]

+spyhunter7 FUCK you angels, MINE is better!

[@DraceEmpressa]

+spyhunter7 And Lucifer with Beelzebub. Yeeesh,

[@L33TRedNinja]

*_IRONY INTENSIFIES_*

[@TheBonkleFox]

I read that as "megatron" for a sec

[@user-lc3on9fd9m]

My angels are a little different!

[@Raikaria1]

Something interesting: Johnathan doesn't directly face you to talk to you before the fight. He hides in the shadow. Walter does; despite already fusing. I guess this suggests Hikaru/Lucifer let Walter take control and minifest for a short time to talk to Flynn; respecting his wishes and perhaps the chance he could stop a fight occurring. Walter dosen't hide from you like Johnathan. He shows you what he has become; and it seems Lucifer is a lot more... respectful of his ally than the Archangels are. That and in Law Lucifer lets Walter have the last word. It also feels more like Lucifer is testing your resolve and strength. Merkabah is outright attempting to stop you.

[@akimboinfernape]

Raikaria1 My take on these scenes is that Jonathan is completely dead and Merkabah is simply mimicking him in order to either screw with Flynn and Isabeau's heads or sway them to his side. His final speech to you in the Neutral route is extremely out of character for him. I also think Walter's conscience is still alive inside Lucifer, since his final speech is more in character for him, and there is the... physical evidence of him on Lucifer's second form.

[@ApexGale]

True. SMT always seems to paint the "Law" side as "Absolute Justice." There are no ifs, buts, or in betweens - you're a sinner, you will be punished. The "Chaos" side seems to be more about total freedom, and that's not necessarily a good thing. Jonathan has been consumed by the idea of "Law" and so he is no longer in control - he is bound by this idea. But Walter has fused with Lucifer, who is all for "freedom." So Lucifer is perfectly fine with allowing Walter to appear. Moreover, like Walter said, Lucifer is the embodiment of human desire, and Walter clearly wanted to speak with Flynn one last time. So Lucifer respected that.

[@garomastervideos]

+Raikaria1 "That and in Law Lucifer lets Walter have the last word." But... in Chaos, Jonathan also says the last words before Merkabah dies (in case it's actually Jonathan, and not Merkabah mimicking him)

[@Raikaria1]

garomastervideos True; but the words are so unlike Johnathan; while Walter's words are easily those that Walter would say. Johnathon's 'last words' are immensely out of character.

[@PokeyMeansBusiness]

+Raikaria1 i think with what we've seen from SMT IV Final that we can assume that merkabah / lucifer are only using their physical forms, like hikaru and gabby. once they fuse with a demon, their consciousness is merged so jonathan and walter no longer exist

[@Докторпарадокс]

Then Merkabah finds out you read Raidou x Demi-fiend fanfiction 2:00

[@Entropic_Alloy]

If you go back to the cocoon in the Eastern Kingdom of Mikado, it says that you see Jonathon's scarf on the ground in it.

[@micknat7665]

I love how in the neutral ending you fight the Chaos and Law final bosses. Kinda shows you that those other sides have no perks. Other than the Chaos route actually showing you what happened to Hikaru.

[@chaosgreyblood]

Well... You DO know who Hikaru actually was, right?

[@karmapunch3410]

Such a shame Alice couldn't ask the LORD or his CHARIOT to "DIE FOR HER"...

[@hkm2698]

Lol

[@JindraAG]

Next game. NEXT GAME.

[@Screwy]

Pretty much this. SMT isn't about picking the choice with the greatest benefits (all of them balance out). It's about choosing what you think is best. However, no matter which, there will always be negatives.

[@Entropic_Alloy]

The Archangels told the people to destroy it because worshiping a hero like Aquila went against God's wishes. If you talk to the people in Mikado before going to Tokyo, it makes Law far more sinister than it originally sounded.

[@zaqareemalcolm]

When "Burroughs" interjects at Lucifer finding surprise at MC/Flynn's strength, the box that usually has her name is empty...foreshadowing?

[@WhiteFangofWar]

Lucifer: Ah, Beelzebub my faithful servant, how goes-AAARGGGH! Great fights. I found them so tough the first playthrough, but you made them look easy.

[@Ultimafire1258]

WhiteFangofWar Lucifer: Beelzebub! Why do you side with these humans! Beelzebub: They gave me the Life Stones I wanted.

[@gabrieldoyen692]

+Ultimafire1258 It would be more : Lucifer : You had the strenght to submit one of my most powerful servant. Magnificent. Then don't disappoint me !

[@JoeyLamontagne]

I loved using Michael and Metatron during the first battle, and Beezelbub and Mara during Lucifer.

[@VaatiOfDarkness]

Isabeau's lines during the Merkabah fight are exactly why I love Neutral endings so much.

[@pmgjwg]

I wouldn't mind if Lucifer ignored press turns outright. No idea how that would work from a programming standpoint,but it would embody his 'pure chaos' thing.

[@sayospecter6731]

09:00 ~ 09:20 : Alcor would be proud. Like, REALLY proud of you, Isabeau.

[@JohneAwesome]

where is it on Merkabah I can't find it

[@lorelo.]

Found Johne.However,the search must continue

[@shadowknightchambers7931]

I keep fimding hin

[@Spherecode.]

I think he was talking about Jonathan’s scarf on Merkabah

[@bigboss0193]

Above the head on the right horn. Subtle, but it’s there, and it’s still sad.

[@wubbawubba3396]

@@bigboss0193 It's not there. I've been looking at both the viewer's right and Merkabah's right, I dont see it. I've been looking at the guy for 10 minutes now.

[@Beastfromthe10]

how can beezlebub smirk when doesn't have a mouth

[@morehero1]

+beast from the east It's all in the eyes.

[@Beastfromthe10]

Levi Walton eye of the fly

[@theomnigamer9177]

I asked a question about Beelzebub in Persona 3. My Beelzebub had Sexy Dance and Charm Boost, I was like "How the hell would anyone find Beelzebub Sexy?"

[@morehero1]

TheOmniGamer If I had to guess I would say hypnosis is involved.

[@notimportant493]

he gives a thumbs up

[@hirosukearisato3259]

Sometimes, not picking a side is the hardest thing to do. "Screw 'em!"

[@MisfortunateAlfred]

Rule #1 of the SMT series: Nothing trumps SMT 2 purely because you punch god, Satan, and Lucifer in the dick. That said, SMT4 was a really great game and I'm as satisfied with the writing as the others.

[@bleachmys0ul]

Well, I guess you could say Walter isn't Lucifer's right hand man

[@KhanhNguyen-mh5ec]

bleachmys0ul *angry law sound*

[@hkm2698]

Walter is his left hand man. If you don’t know what I mean, it’s that round type of muscle in Lucifer’s left arm.

[@nickp3315]

@@hkm2698 lol that's the joke dumbdumb

[@cyncynshop]

Although it is hard to justify any "happy" or "right" endings, for me, there is none. So at Law/Chaos ending. You saved the world, alone. Walter, Jonathan. Isabeau. Gone. None remain with you, to laugh together, to be even happy or angry at you for your choice. That is why at the end, the neutral end left you at least with the solution that you can continue fighting, because there is still things to be done to improve your humanity.

[@SazukeEX1]

They chose their paths... At least you put an end to them so that they could find peace in death. Such a shame they were too dead set on their path that they couldn't be saved like Isabeau.

[@Vitor20XX]

18:23 This theme reminds of Silent Hill, that Lucifer design too.

[@kisaLuver]

Whenever I see Johnathan and Walter's scarves on Merkabah and Lucifer I feel my heart break a little bit ; ___ ;

[@sock312]

Knju1 MonsterHunt it’s on his second form on one of the top horn things

[@Ninja07Keaton]

I believe chaos is portrayed as desire and ambition in the case of SMT. The repercussions of desire should be obvious, since crime and war are such glaring examples.

[@angrylord27]

Neutral route is the best

[@jesuscastillo782]

Law ftw

[@Krelos1114]

Oblivion ftw

[@Sketchy_2]

White ftw

[@CDPW]

Dagdas route is best... but also not present in this game unfortunately.

[@sock312]

Seeker Aspirant I agree

[@wheatleyscience9]

Yeah the fiends are pretty dang awesome. they just sit back and let you fight the angels and demons. Then you point a sword at them and they instantly kill you and then casually stroll off and resume their happy lives.

[@NirodimosNeedAKing]

lucifers battle theme along with his appearance make my skin crawl.....

[@Lelouchxzero1]

In most SMT games i do enjoy Lucifer. This one not so much, usually when you beat him on a neutral route he shows his respect for making your own choice and being able to overcome him. In this he just sounds like a sore loser.

[@balanceherosmt7170]

He's not the same Lucifer from previous games

[@Junpeidaman190]

Lucifer shows his respect in the law route tho

[@wheatleyscience9]

True, but the fact that it's called "Chaos" as opposed to "Freedom" or "Independence" and is run by the freaking devil should kinda imply it's bad in its own right as well.

[@nejiharuno]

I am surprised that Lucifer is forgetting about Aleph here when he made that comment about being surprised by Humanity's strength.

[@rexeye3638]

That was a different Lucifer.

[@wubbawubba3396]

IV and 2 were different universes, seeing as how Tokyo was destroyed in SMT 1 (and in extension SMT 2 cuz it's the same timeline) and, in IV, Tokyo was protected by masakado.

[@nejiharuno]

@@wubbawubba3396 Yeah, but the Expanse (or rather the Amala Network) already shown that it's all connected within every universes within the multiverse. As explained back in 3, and put into use during 4.

[@SazukeEX1]

She wanted to come but she was better used to get everyone to evacuate Mikado to Tokyo. She also had more of a connection to Johnathan than Walter. She may also have suspected that Johnathan was in love with her hence his anger and disbelief at parts of the game when she doesn't side with him or when he thought she had picked Walter over him concerning Lilith. Sadly Johnathan never had a chance with Isabeau since she only wants Flynn.

[@PolarPhantom]

I think we can all think of ways Chaos can fail us. Like with how insanely stupid Social Darwinism is.

[@TheDiscoGenre]

Satan is allegedly separate from Lucifer in SMT/is one of God's lackeys. And Lucifer is the devil though. Merkabah is one of God's proxies though.

[@MyJoJob]

At 22:48 why was Burrough's name missing? Was it supposed to mean something or was it a glitch?

[@JanusHoW]

Who knows. Atlus likes trolling people like that.

[@BlueMoonX79]

"And so, Omega saved Tokyo from the forces of Merkabah and Lucifer, thus preserving the will of humanity." Next up: The Fiends! xD

[@Bakanaben2]

I desire a world where both Peace and Freedom entertwine together, eternally cooperating.

[@DraceEmpressa]

record breaker ending of devil survivor 2

[@RukasuInoru]

12:17 "considering he's the lord of the demons, he must be somewhere related to them" .... Oh really Burroughs? who would've guessed...

[@Miikhiel]

Merkabah easily looks creepier than Lucifer.

[@TheKarui]

This is such an under rated game.

[@zaqareemalcolm]

good thing it was liked well enough to get a sequel/interquel/whatever

[@arturoibarra4167]

TheKarui wise words,

[@cummywummiez]

Mot reslly *cough* fiends *cough*

[@joshyokiziminoultimatewere9951]

SSSOOO??!!

[@thegreat2635]

I like it, but it made me feel so terrible cuz I got chaos that I couldn't bring myself to finish the game

[@thetruewisegamer]

5:16 oh my god johnathan became a horror run for it he'll eat your soul

[@TheDiscoGenre]

Devil Survivor has positive Law and Chaos ends. The darker series Neutral usually has a better end. Even if it means human stagnation makes Lucifer and YHVH return again to start more problems.

[@duongbinh211]

13:02 : "We'll bang when all these are over, alright?" eyes.

[@Kumar_695]

Oh shit I just realized the baby is Walter the blue scarf if hanging down its throat Lol I beat Lucifer but I was too concentrated on the battle

[@SazukeEX1]

Going with Jonathan to fight Lilith also shows how stupid strong Walter is since he defeats Four Defense Force Divinities by himself. So it makes sense why you would fight Lucifer after Merkbah as his host is much stronger than Jonathan and has no doubts while Jonathan bore doubts up to merging to Merkabah.

[@Fbshgg]

Honestly the neutral ending was that good to me, but fighting both Jon and Walter was cool.... honestly smt 4 could've been better, and I wish it was. It was still pretty fucking hard and a badass game though.

[@PolarPhantom]

If neither God nor Lucifer can exist without humanity, they can never hope to win.

[@transcreatureofchaos]

Flynn really just said "Cool story bro, but"

[@kiraina25]

Then I suggest you find yourself a guide, because you're gonna want Neutral.

[@LeoShadowRain]

Chaos=Freedom at cost of life Law= Loss of freedom Neutral:Between the two

[@CybernetMarionette]

Hippity hoppity the souls of man are not your property

[@VentusvsVantias]

I always choose the Neutral route first. It's usually my favorite out of all three.

[@dougarr]

neutral in SMT 1 is kinda badass. and here too it seems, imho.

[@elocin1964]

Neutral: Absolute Order and Freedom (AOF)

[@Rever900]

Pretty old but... *staring contest intensifies*

[@usbporter1394]

There are 9 ranks of angels. Seraphims are the highest of them, being closest to God, Archangels and angels are the lowest being that of 8th and 9th. They are watchers of the Earth as far as I remember.

[@demi-femme4821]

Damn. You don't even have Fellow unlocked. Respect.

[@NOEXEoriginal]

MAN. I remember wanting to slap jonathan the entire game, and then Walter starts talking crazy near the middle of the journey as well. The game ended the way I felt the entire time, wanting to defeat the demons and destroy the Eastern Kingdom. But whatever, I guess I have to except this way of doing it. Beat the neutral route, and will not be playing again. I loved the experience, but... I needed a damn map! Some quests are just better left cut out because of the lack of a map.

[@SharKing319]

Jeez, Merkabah's voice in phase 2 is downright terrifying compared to phase 1.

[@Triixster]

Haha! I see Johnathens scarf during Merkabahs transformation, look at the top right of the screen, see the yellow thing attached to Merkabah?

[@azurestarseliph5926]

Uhhh Walter? You wanna get that arm looked at?

[@yo7456]

Technically the arm is Walter We can say that he is the right hand of lucifer! Haha, it's funny because in one route lucifer fucking eat him

[@blackmoonflower]

I'm at this point in my game, and I am horrified. I liked Walter, too...

[@Entropic_Alloy]

The Archangels told the people to destroy it because worshiping a hero like Aquila went against God's wishes. If you talk to the people in Mikado before going to Tokyo, it makes Law far more sinister than it originally sounds (especially through the Law ending).

[@RatTalisman]

NO GODS NO MASTERS

[@dyldragon1]

18:15 THATS A BOSS

[@elinfini]

Just like with Merkabah, he dismisses it, telling you that it's no time to mourn your friend because of his choices (in Lucifer's case, to become a part of him for a greater cause). Your stats decrease if you choose that.

[@AxelXGabriel]

They always go out oftheir way in the games to explain why Law sucks, but never why Chaos is bad. They just assume we know it's bad. Heck, in the second game, Chaos was practically better then Neutral!

[@DarkMatterZero]

Well heck Walter is the baby attached to Lucifers arm. Walter though he was fighting for freedom but he to was just being controlled by Lucifer.

[@gyutarosan5311]

So Merkabah transforms into, Harley Quinns ultimate form?

[@ubermaster1]

Basically both Walter/Jonathan sacrificed themselves to become Lucifer and God Chariot Merkabah respectively, that's why you can see their scarves during God Chariot's trasnformation and on the arm of Lucifer after he transforms.

[@serorose9350]

that disguisting arm, man, why luci....

[@cake6851]

Bertie San don't talk shit about walter

[@mistahjenkins4826]

Then someone get the guy a doctor, his arm is about to pop!!!

[@isauldron4337]

Lucifer looks monstruous , especially his left arm ( the right one for the viewers

[@Keihzaru]

I don't know ,the second they talk about exterminating anyone from outside of Mikado as if they were filfth, that's when it started soundign sinister, and that is basically the second thing they tell you.

[@KiarOdyssey]

Walter is the baby that comes out of Lucifer's arm, and im not sure but I think Jonathon is the right side of the face

[@DarkMatterZero]

It's funny Walter thought he was getting freedom but he is just stuck to Lucifer, showing that even pure chaos has it's own control and even order has its evils too.

[@00k1e]

i wonder why Lucifer didnt use Great Lobos on this boss fight ._. it would have ben more harder that way imo xD

[@shadowknight1990o]

I think they believed that Chaos was a double duh while Law might need some explaining

[@BronxDragon]

Demons and angels. They need to stay in their own fucking world and SMT allows us to give them both the middle finger since they can't understand the simply concept of moderation.

[@CatNinja_X]

The Neutral path is better than the law and chaos path combined

[@Entropic_Alloy]

He calls you filth and your smile filthy debuffs you or something, but it isn't the buff answer if that is what you are looking for.

[@GrimmShadow]

Poor Walter, just twitchin around with a hand in his butt. :(

[@SolidSkewt]

so i thought that merkabah was god and lucifer was satan but they was nothing more then just *great high tier* demon and angel o well shows dont put your hope all in one thing.

[@Dong_Harvey]

im not sure, but was the Lucifer Battle Theme 2 composed by Chu Ishikawa or the likes thereof. it didn't sound standard MegaTen

[@Phyllo9]

Dunno why but for a second there Morax looks like he was holding up the middle finger... and i still say DLL (Demon Lord Lucifer) kinda looks remind me of Xerxes from 300...

[@xelldincht8149]

i think that weird creature on Lucifer's arm will give me nightmares...

[@PhantomThiefOracle]

doesnt help when you find out that’s Walter *shudder*

[@SazukeEX1]

Because it's 4 vs 1 in that fusion and the Angels look down upon humans as nothing but slaves/tools to worship God. Why would they, now God's Chariot, wish to take the form of a being they despise? Lucifier understands humans somewhat and since it was 1 vs 1 he most likely allowed Walter some final parting words as a human before the fight because of Walter merging into him to restore some of his power.

[@AxelXGabriel]

Again I agree, but the games only talk about how Extreme Law is bad, practically every SMT game never says anything bad about Extreme Chaos.

[@AxelXGabriel]

Yeah but still, the problem I always have with SMT games is they never actually show how the world of Chaos can be bad for humanity.

[@babajeeds]

Dang. Just beat Chaos first time and wanted to see the other endings. I thought Neutral would be a wholesome end with all 4 samurai...lol

[@eddstactitudcaribe8046]

Demons can evolve right?

[@zaqareemalcolm]

edd st Actitud Caribe only some, like the Angel line

[@TSVStriFe]

On a mythology base, what is the biggest difference between an Archangel and a Seraphim??

[@KhanhNguyen-mh5ec]

strife79 There rankings?

[@wheatleyscience9]

well yeah. that's true as well. But in all fairness it is a very dark series so I guess it tries to explain how angels could be bad too....either way; I say screw both alignments. haha neutral is my only preferred path

[@orrthehunter]

I'm guessing the instant kill move is only for Neutral route since the SMT games has a set neutral as the true ending route for a long time. As always they never make the True ending path the easiest.

[@Phones_777]

YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!! *explosions*

[@StationSquareW]

Yeah, but I'm sure that was really Walter there and not just Lucifer using his appearance. I guess their counsciousness fused rather than giving in to the outer god

[@ividal1]

18:08 behold my ARM TUMOR! THAT FOR SOME REASON HAS A FACE

[@zehern22]

It is quite surprise that the smt 4 u fight against ezekeil's visioned angel and mr.helel in the same route.

[@Haos51]

It's on the top right of form two.

[@Triixster]

Arm tumour is Walter....such an unfortunate fate

[@ArkAurelius]

Were Walter's and Jonathan's scarves visible on the other route bosses? cause I never noticed