Should Christians eat meat? Greg Boyd & Joshua D Jones debate Veganism

Veganism is increasingly popular in culture. Church leader Greg Boyd (vegetarian transitioning to vegan), and church leader Joshua D Jones, (who loves his meat), debate the ethical, environmental and scriptural case for eating meat versus vegetarianism.
For Greg Boyd: www.reknew.org & www.whchurch.org
For Joshua D Jones: www.amazon.com...
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[@veganliving6255]

That was cool. I'm not Christian but am vegan and thought Greg did a great job. He had to tread a kinder thin line as he was a Christian in a Christian discussion. He acted in a respectful manner and did pull up points which Joshua made that he disagreed with but did so in a non aggressive way. Thanks everyone for the show and thanks Greg for speaking up for animals.

[@bankaihadouken1180]

Jesus said the following: He saves "man and beast" (Psalm 36:6) and demonstrates His sympathy for them. “Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful” (Luke 6:36) to show mercy to animals, for example (Luke 10:25-37) to think of compassion for animal neighbors. Historical/Biblical evidence Jesus was Vegetarian, However the Europeans didnt have the discipline to adhere to this- so they re.wrote bible and said Jesus ate Fish, And Lamb after his cricifixtion (originial text he never did!!) Thats why the Monks, Anchorites, Proper Seventh Day adventist Christians and majority of Coptic christians don't eat meat.

[@ElsjeMassyn]

I looove Greg Boyd already !!! Yeah!! I am looking for fellow vegans and believers in support of my own vegan lifestyle

[@GeorgeMcConnell-nq3vd]

I cannot believe that being a vegan is healthy when you cannot live without certain nutrients that a plant based diet cannot supply. Doesn't that tell you something.

[@jennsimbomi6809]

i really dont give a SHIT what someone has to say that thinks “people should eat whatever they want” when BILLIONS of animals are suffering HORRIFICALLY- BECAUSE of them ‘eating what they want’ and GOD would have NO part of that.

[@oscarcat1231]

Well said. And amen

[@matthewrice3670]

I don't want to assume what is or isn't working for Joshua, but it sounds like the positive benefits in health came from cutting refined carbs and sugar, and not necessarily from eating meat. I think this is why scientific literacy is so important so we can figure out what diets work for different people and not have to sift through a bunch of anecdotal evidence.

[@machtnichtsseimann]

It's also probably better to construct much more complex questions and models of thought on this subject rather than simply binary "Meat or Vegan is the Best for All" debates. So, maybe for Joshua it can be: Meat + cutting down refined carbs and sugar + ......

[@stisca]

It is likely that whole foods will deliver the majority of health benefits, but red meat is classed as a probable carcinogen. And saturated fat cannot be avoided eating typically farmed meat.

[@stisca]

@gekksvide0 Red meat is a "probable carcinogen", at least according to the WHO...

[@AstonAcademia]

Most folks don't know what refined carbs are. He mentioned shortbread which is butter and flour combination, by default most of the energy will come from the butter at least 40%.

[@matthewrice5937]

While it is true that saturated fat doesn’t lead to cardiovascular disease, there is a causal link between heightened levels of LDL cholesterol and atherosclerosis. Now, you can heighten your cholesterol levels by consuming lots of saturated fat, just as you can elevate them by consuming cholesterol. Cutting meat out of your diet is a surefire way to significantly lower cholesterol and will probably also lower your saturated fat intake, depending on what else you’re eating.

[@northernlight8857]

Greg...a nice person...was not the right person for this debate. He let Joshua get away with easily debunkable arguments. And i am not a vegan.

[@UnfamiliarPlace]

Sadly not enough high-profile Christian vegetarians.

[@afunreb1681]

@@UnfamiliarPlace vegans not vegetarians

[@NatashaRobinson412]

@@UnfamiliarPlace Please let me know here of non-meat eating Christians . I love all my brothers and sisters regardless. I just am firmly aware of this being an important next step that Christ’s followers will find creates more love And prepares us all to live in harmony with ALL our precious as was originally intended 🌸👩🏼🌸

[@Ironmom4]

You are right he was not the right person for this debate.

[@christalenglish6105]

I appreciate hearing Alex O'Connor speak on veganism as well. Veganism was a great topic for this week's show. Thank you.

[@joaofarias6473]

🙏🙏🙏

[@samvandervelden8243]

Lol everyone knows that he would win the debate

[@chlorophyllphile]

Aged like milk, sadly

[@jaronhall]

Greg is absolutely letting josh get away with a bunch of poor excuses and arguments…. I know that Alex O Connor is not a Christian, but he has a degree in theology from Oxford and I think he could do a much better job debating the vegan side even from a Christian point of view. He has all the facts on environment and animal suffering. I know he would happily debate this topic on your channel

[@GeorgeMcConnell-nq3vd]

I cannot believe that a plant based diet is healthy when you need certain nutrients to live that plants cannot supply. 1 Timothy 4:1-3

[@T_Armstrong]

@@GeorgeMcConnell-nq3vd "I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet" 1 Timothy 2:12 Do you agree with the verse you gave and also the verse I gave, or only one of them? Why? Also, if someone invented a pill that replaced all food requirements but resulted in optimum health markers, would you consider that diet unhealthy? How? Why? Or in other words, what is unhealthy about taking a b12 supplement if that supplement helps someone be healthy and meet their b12 requirements? Any diet where someone is healthy (obtains all the nutrients and calories they need) is by definition a healthy diet.

[@GeorgeMcConnell-nq3vd]

@@T_Armstrong not a clue what 1 Timothy 2:12 has to do with the topic but if your inquiry is about women try to subvert man than you best look at Genesis. A woman's passion.... As for the rest of your inquiries I believe they are all answered in my initial post. Lots of things going on here and complex but a very involved and complete conversation.

[@GeorgeMcConnell-nq3vd]

@@T_Armstrong oops sorry I neglected to answer the question about 1 Timothy 2:12 . I need to look it up. Sorry my brain is just a bit small to memorize everything. But off the cuff, if it's in KJ. I agree 100%. The why part is because I believe God must give us instructions on holy living. It must be available to all. He chose English because he knew it would become the most spoken language. His original words were in ancient Hebrew. Then to ancient Greek. Then to KJ. (English). Not a bad meet you halfway plan. Well, I love God and his son Jesus. I do not consider Him to be a liar.

[@T_Armstrong]

@@GeorgeMcConnell-nq3vd Your dismissal of my verse example to prove that you can't just cherry pick a verse to suit your needs, and then launching back to genesis so somehow support it is wild. I can also give you a Genesis verse on topic: "And God said, 'See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food." In fact, God didn't suggest we could eat meat until after the flood, maybe because all the plants were dead except one tree. Scripture used this way is all interpretation, and anyone gets to interpret it as they please which makes it kinda pointless in a context like this. More to the point: please explain how a diet (like a plant-based diet) that provides of all the calories and nutrients someone needs to be healthy is not actually healthy. If I ate a diet that somehow contained zero vitamin c, but then I made sure I got my vit c via a tablet, would you call that unhealthy? Would you call me unhealthy? It's a contradiction.

[@Magnulus76]

I don't eat meat, for similar reasons to Greg Boyd. You cannot have true happiness and peace and live off the kind of intense suffering of other beings that's part of the American diet. This puts me a bit of an outlier at my Lutheran church, but it's just how I feel about the matter. I'm a bit of a hippy at heart, and have no problem thinking outside the box and not letting a herd mentality dictate my life. As Abraham Muste said, "There is no way to peace. Peace is the way". If we want peace in our lives, we must embody it. There have been plenty of vegetarian Christians, like Leo Tolstoy or Albert Schweitzer, all remarkable people that went to great lengths to obey the calling of God, and who saw humanity and nature as part of a greater whole. There are also many vegetarian Seventh Day Adventists. It's also not an inherently unhealthy way to eat, with a little planning a care, and it can be quite healthy- the residents of Loma Linda, California, are some of the longest lived people in the world and many of them are Seventh Day Adventist vegetarians.

[@stevesharpe3370]

I think eating vegetarian is much more healthy? I was killing myself with meat once I stopped eating meat and sugar everything changed

[@lindacarroll5018]

There is something so disgraceful about forcing sentient beings to incessantly breed for the sole purpose of abuse & slaughter.

[@chapmanchen1]

According to T. Colin Campbell's (2005) China study: The Most Comprehensive Study of Nutrition Ever Conducted and the Startling Implications for Diet, Weight Loss and Long-term Health, a human meat-eater is much more susceptible to cancer, diabetes, high blood pressure, heart disease than a vegan. Now, the American Dietetic Association, which is the largest body of diet and nutrition professionals in the US, and is formed of over a 100,000 certified practitioners, has categorically stated that a vegan diet is healthy, safe and nutritionally adequate for all stages of life, including pregnancy, lactation and infancy.

[@carakerr4081]

God slowly led me to a Whole Foods plant based diet over a period of about 5 years. I am now exclusively plant based. This was not my idea! I am now 30lbs thinner and very healthy. Further there is now scientific evidence that a diet rich in seeds, nuts, fruits, vegetables and legumes is best to prevent western diseases of cancer, heart disease, diabetes, and obesity. I do believe God directed me to be vegan for my health and for not participating in the violence of factory farmed meat. I am not an environmentalist or even passionate about animal rights this was just something God guided me to. I do see my meat eating friends and relatives suffering from a host of medical issues. A healthy carnivore diet is the exception. This is a healthy diet but very difficult to follow.

[@ReligionsFakten]

Hitler wasn't vegetarian, but I guess the point was that one category is not necessarily influencing another category.

[@fukpoeslaw3613]

Was!!? Hitler war kein Vegetariamus!!! Was meinen Sie!!?

[@animalsarebeautifulpeople3094]

​@fukpoeslaw3613 perhaps he cut down on flesh intake for health reasons and his propaganda machine spun it to make him seem ethical

[@udmgraduate]

I gotta be honest. I'm a Catholic vegan and I was really looking forward to watching this...but it's just two meat eaters talking about minutia. It avoids the real crux of the issue. I'm glad Boyd is onto the concept of dominion, but he doesn't follow the thought process through, nor does he really hold any kind of a vegan or vegetarian position. Have a real vegan on....or even vegetarian for that matter. Much love to all here, but I was quite disappointed.

[@jaronhall]

Animals eat the soy and the other plants form mono crops…. So by saying that farming is bad for both meat eaters and plant eaters is so make it sound like it’s equally bad for both. You’re doing far more harm toward mono crop culture by eating meat because you’re feeding the middle man instead of directly eating the source plants. 90%+ of all soy is for animal feed, not tofu and edamame…

[@hughmarcus1]

Not actually true. Most soya is grown in Brazil. It’s actually a vast country & only a portion is grown in deforested areas (I’m not justifying this, just stating a fact). The valuable part of the soya bean is the oil. 85% of that is for human use. The meal which is fed to livestock is actually a by product of the process to extract the oil. Setting aside whether it’s right to ship it halfway round the world, we need to stick to facts, not just a narrative raised by anti meat lobbyists.

[@jaronhall]

@@hughmarcus1 I would hardly consider soy meal a byproduct. To say that soy grown to feed our ginormous meat industry is a byproduct is just to try and minimize its impact. That would be like saying that meat is just some byproduct of the leather industry, and that it would just get thrown away anyways. Also, who are the ant meat lobbyists? 😂 there absolutely are meat lobbyists trying to protect their large industry, but who are the anti meat lobbyists and what are they trying to protect? What a rubbish idea

[@hughmarcus1]

@@jaronhall It's neither an idea or rubbish. I'm stating facts on what I know. As a farmer who farms in tune with the environment, I'd never have a big shed full of animals being fed soya or other products that have been shipped halfway round the world. But I know about food systems & I know a lot about agriculture. It's about economics. The most valuable part of the soya bean is the oil (as I previously stated). As for the anti meat lobby, I'm sure you've heard of PETA, and more recently, GreenPeace produced a scary video targeted at children. It suggested all livestock were being fed soya from the Amazon. Absurdly, they advised using tofu on the BBQ as an alternative to meat. I wonder where they thought the soya to make the tofu was coming from.

[@Magnulus76]

During WWI, Denmark managed to avoid mass starvation simply because people started eating soybeans that had previously been fed to pigs. Mortality actually decrease as a result of such "privations" during the war.

[@Rigpa88]

Joshua also sets up a false dichotomy. He compares the scenario of a single cow grazing in a field, vs industrialised soy monocropping. If you want to compare the best possible scenrio of animal farming, then you need to put up against the best possible version of vegan organic farming. His fantasy of a cow grazing in a field behind your house amongst nature is literally that - a fantasy. Its not a scalable solution for any type of modernized civilisation.

[@johannareese2318]

I was so excited about this debate but we could've done a lot better from the vegan side. There are a lot of reasons why vegetarianism although not a requirement in this fallen world, seems to be closer to the ideal.

[@PatriotsConnectProject]

I'm so glad that Greg is transitioning to a vegan diet. I went to a conference at his church about 6 years ago and tried to inspire him to become vegan. I hope my input was helpful:) I hope he is vegan by now. I love the show unbelievable with Justin facilitating, and I look forward to finding out why he left the show

[@richardgamrat1944]

8:05 Wow, where is this place where people actually feel ashamed for eating meat and have to hide it? How can you portray meat-eaters as basically opressed is beyond me. Yeah, like totally when I am at thanks-giving or whatever everyone there is vegan and they look bad on me when I mention eating meat. Yeah, that totally happens everywhere.

[@ChickpeatheTortie]

You obviously take enormous pride in your (i) cruelty to animals and (ii) in being a walking talking living graveyard.

[@richardgamrat1944]

@@ChickpeatheTortie What? I guess my last few sentences didnt come across as sarcasticaly as I intended. Or maybe I am misunderstanding you. To be clear: I am vegan.

[@FightFilms]

Humans are not herbivores.

[@fukpoeslaw3613]

@@FightFilms humans can be anything well not literally, I'm not a lunatic leftist, hein!?! but humans *can* be vegetarian/herbivores ... .....come on, you know that! we can be and do *A LOT!!! YAEY!!!! HUMANS GOOOOO!!!! HUMANS RULE!*

[@machtnichtsseimann]

I'll counter your sarcasm with a personal anecdote: My sister-in-law has drastically altered her diet to the point of near-veganism. No meat at Thanksgiving, though my brother's persuasion led to a smaller-than-normal turkey being offered. She was polite to not preach at people for "eating meat", but the sentiment and tension was in the air as to her newfound conviction. So? In many ways pertaining to nutrition, I agree with her and share similar values as to whole grains, fruit and vegetables, wheat flour, coffee / teas, spices, soy/oat milks. But, I proceed on to quality cow's milk, unsalted butter, plain whole fat yogurt, grass-fed beef, non-factory-farmed chicken. So what. I am happy for whatever helps her take on family obesity head-on, but that "tension in the air" is something I don't particularly enjoy. I don't preach at her about what "I" eat, and as long as she keeps her Sermon to herself, then we'll be fine. If she or anyone else is gonna get on a soapbox, then EXPECT there to be pushback / other thoughts on the subject, that is IF she and everyone else truly wants to discuss the matter constructively. Otherwise, I'm not gonna waste my time with people lecturing me. ( If you knew my sister-in-law, she can get preachy and you're just supposed to sit there and nod up-and-down. Yeah, no. )

[@Iamwrongbut]

Even if you don’t go vegan, I think all Christians should abstain from factory farmed meat. Unless you have a health condition that forces you to eat it, I can’t see how someone can justify torturing animals in factory farms when they could instead eat beans, lentils, and other vegetables that provide all the nutrition you need.

[@Kvothe3]

Agreed 👍

[@FightFilms]

Shouldn't then Christians also stop eating anything that comes from Big Ag? Tons of animals suffer terribly in most plant food production.

[@Iamwrongbut]

@@FightFilms you tell me. Do you think a Christian should support that?

[@Kvothe3]

@@FightFilms Big AG mostly feeds factory farmed animals. But I agree that there are more humane agriculture practices we should be investigating

[@FightFilms]

@@Iamwrongbut the point was that the average Christian in the West should starve, according to your logic. Way to dodge the question, though.

[@lisanloves]

Several years ago, a few years after I became vegan, I made a few videos going through the health benefits of a low fat high carb plant based diet on my channel. My most popular videos are the sugar myth busting videos. A lot of people think that sugar is not healthy, or makes people fat (whereas meat and other animal products get a pass), and that is simply not the case. I've also made a few videos about the compatibility of Christianity and veganism.

[@frog382]

No sane person defends the act of MURDER.

[@mjcollins7]

As a vegetarian of many years, and a Christian, I have struggled more with the treatment of farm animals, particularly factory-farming, than the eating of meat in itself. I feel that this should be the focus of all Christians, to be more conscientious about the source of their meat (as well as milk, cheese and eggs) and for this to influence their shopping habits. We are instructed to be ‘stewards’ of God’s creation and I think this is one way in how this applies to our lives. I’d love more Christians to become vegetarian, or vegan, but I would find it difficult to accuse anyone, biblically, of being wrong if they ate meat. I love the verse in Isaiah about the lion one day lying down with the lamb. I believe that this is an image of God’s original design for creation and a vision of God’s future Kingdom, for which we all long.

[@pdxnikki1]

Raising our own animals if we're so blessed to be able to do so seems like the perfect option, no?

[@ChickpeatheTortie]

The bible says quite clearly in genesis that we are designed to eat the fruit from trees then god changes his mind but still commands that the animals slaughtered for food are to be 'perfect and free from defect' something that modern animals bred for food are not. I presume that the god that you are talking about is Jehovah in which case dream on you are not part of his major plan unless of course you are a member of his chosen people. Sad but true I'm afraid.

[@mjcollins7]

You’ve made a fair point about the Genesis account. I think I agree.

[@HelenEk7]

I agree. It's better to buy from cruelty free farms. And even better - eat wild meat. (I happen to live in a country where we have to hunt 30,000 moose a year to avoid over-population. Very healthy, and very nice tasting)

[@Joe-dz2fl]

@@HelenEk7 you have to ask yourself before you go hunting Helen, why is there a Moose over population in the first place? Do you think is has anything to do with us killing their natural predators? In this case wolves and bears almost to extinction? For what reason you may ask? oh yeah you protect or precious cows and sheep. I’m sorry but sadly you are very misinformed:( All the best!

[@HelenEk7]

"Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26 for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.” 1 Cor 10:25-26

[@juliemayes2027]

Yes we have a choice and are not to judge what others decide to eat according to Scripture

[@catherinesummers5057]

Amen This is a globalist religion infiltrating the Church The great falling away!

[@HelenEk7]

@@juliemayes2027 Which is why I find videos like this pointless. They are putting unnecessary burdens on people, when the whole point of Jesus dying for us was to remove the burden of the law.

[@juliemayes2027]

@@HelenEk7 exactly and give us freedom of choice and not judge others x

[@AM-tb4fn]

@@juliemayes2027 sometimes it's not what others decide to eat....it's what others decide to kill

[@stisca]

I liked the conversation, but to put a meat eater who wrote a short book about it against an “almost vegan but still vegetarian” seems to be steering towards a certain conclusion to me.

[@joaofarias6473]

Yeah 😂

[@gaspingfortruth]

The beauty of the cow.

[@FightFilms]

New Age.

[@pdxnikki1]

I love cows. I thank God for cows. They're sooo yummy! And cute. And sweet.

[@joaofarias6473]

The beauty of the dog.

[@Joe-dz2fl]

@@pdxnikki1 they are so yummy and they are also the biggest cause of species extinction and is currently the biggest threat to orangutangs, tigers, wolves, bisons, bears and many other species of wildlife. So yeah they better taste real good, since we are gonna continue to lose our animals for them...

[@bankaihadouken1180]

Jesus said the following: He saves "man and beast" (Psalm 36:6) and demonstrates His sympathy for them. “Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful” (Luke 6:36) to show mercy to animals, for example (Luke 10:25-37) to think of compassion for animal neighbors. Historical/Biblical evidence Jesus was Vegetarian, However the Europeans didnt have the discipline to adhere to this- so they re.wrote bible and said Jesus ate Fish, And Lamb after his cricifixtion (originial text he never did!!) Thats why the Monks, Anchorites, Proper Seventh Day adventist Christians and majority of Coptic christians don't eat meat.

[@ytube777]

how does a vegan eat the eucharist for those that believe it's physically the blood and flesh of jesus?

[@mr.c2485]

Good question!

[@fukpoeslaw3613]

and.... how do meat lovers eat Jesus; and not feel cannibal; another good question 🤷‍♂️

[@Apriluser]

@@fukpoeslaw3613 Jesus said “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no part of me”. Pretty tough words, even for his disciples!

[@Matthew24.4]

Eucharist is a pagan ritual, it’s not biblical.

[@cookiain]

Dixie Hall not if you understand the reference

[@eddyc8900]

In order to have a vegan debate, you have to talk to vegans. Not half arsed vegetarians.

[@richardgamrat1944]

“From beasts we scorn as soulless, In forest, field and den, The cry goes up to witness The soullessness of men.” M. Frida Hartley

[@fukpoeslaw3613]

at least men make poems animals eat other animals, still kill them even if vegetarian (hippos); animals are the worst; at least some men can act unnatural and therefore better; and also make poems

[@richardgamrat1944]

@@fukpoeslaw3613 So you agree with veganism? I am not sure what's your point. If you say animals are worst because they kill other animals, then humans have to be even worse than animlas, since humans actually can understand morality and understand right and wrong (unlike animals, who can just follow their instincts), understand suffering and so on. And despite that, humans choose to torture and kill animals in factory farms and elsewhere so they can enjoy their taste. To make an analogy, what is worse? - small children punching you (who can not yet understand properly right and wrong, other perspectives and so on) or adult human punching you (who fully realizes ethical and personal implications - it hurts you and its wrong)?

[@pdxnikki1]

We humans actually DO have souls but we often act beastly. It's which spirit we willing conform to; the Holy Spirit or the satanic.

[@richardgamrat1944]

@@pdxnikki1I think its meant figuratively - souless as cruel or something.

[@soubhikmukherjee6871]

I'm a Vegan. I believe in the teachings of Jesus, that is, unconditional love and compassion ❤ 💜.

[@bds8715]

And sin and repentence 💖💜

[@mr.c2485]

And eternal conscious torment.

[@fukpoeslaw3613]

@@mr.c2485 *YAEY!!! ETERNAL FRYING IN Mr. JESUS' BRIMSTONEY SKILLET!!!*

[@machtnichtsseimann]

@@mr.c2485 - That's another topic altogether! But...it's possible that if you die, judged by God, welcomed to join others in Heaven/Paradise, and you STILL don't want to go? Then...torment, yes, because that would be an absolutely terrible decision...( Who knows how long you are in that state? ) ..or you get annihilated out of Justice and Compassion.

[@pdxnikki1]

Is there meat in heaven? If Passover is celebrated, which it mos def is as are ALL the Kingdom Feasts, then we'll be eating meat in heaven. What do you think?

[@Apriluser]

What about Christians who live in the far north country where the primary source of food is meat? Any “biblical mandate” must work across cultures and times.

[@Matthew24.4]

Bible says to eat anything you want!

[@pdxnikki1]

Good point

[@HelenEk7]

I live in Norway and within the last couple of days I had two different Vegans tell me that all people in my part of the world should move elsewhere, since food production is not sustainable here. (Most farms produce animal products). I'm rather shocked by the level of arrogance to be honest..

[@littleboots9800]

@@HelenEk7 I'm shocked that you are shocked.😆 You obviously haven't met enough of them.

[@Joe-dz2fl]

@@HelenEk7 what those vegans said to you is nonsense I understand, but so my question to you is, do you think the rest of the world is like Norway? Where btw 45% of global land is dedicated to animal agriculture, we have enough food to feed 12 billion people and yet there are over 500,000,000 people who are undernourished, where their food is not fed to them but rather shipped to America, Australia, England and many other nations alike to feed their pigs, cows and chickens. Currently a single cow requires 4-6 acres of land. A plant based diet for a whole year for one person can be sustained with one sixth of an acre, while a animals food based diet requires 3 acres of land per person per year. This means say good bye to orangutans, bears, tigers, pandas, wolves, gorillas and any other wild animals whose habitat is being destroyed in order to meet our crazy demand for meat... Helen we are running out of excuses.

[@mbgrafix]

*Should Christians eat meat?* Well...if you are a *Biblical* Christian...then the _simple, Biblical answer is..._ If you *_want_* to eat meat and you have no personal issue of conscience with it, then the Bible is very straightforward...YES! Eat meat. Anyone teaching otherwise are either personally confused or twisting scripture. Period.

[@pdxnikki1]

Amen. Rom 14

[@Mathew247]

I love Greg but Joshua killed it....pun intended. I'm 56 years old and keto/carnivore. At 5'8" 180lb.... I can run circles around most 30 year-olds and I don't exorcise. It's an amazing and an amazingly healthy lifestyle. Been doing it for 5 years now. I cheat on holidays and get togethers and always regret it the following day because of bloatedness and just feeling bad.

[@nullethosechoes]

44:29 "They certainly cannot afford the nice supplementation for vitamin B12, vitamin D" look at the price tag of meat or other animal products, then look at the price tag of supplements, what's more expensive? If your goal is to get a balanced diet as cheap as possible being vegan is the way to go, even today when animal products are heavily subsidised. 47:48 "I know they are not sentient...they would still be a living thing" If vegans and vegetarians cared about being a living thing, then this would make more sense, but they don't, which makes this a straw man argument. Also, if you eat animal products, more living beings i.e. plants needs to die. 49:24 "animals eat other animals" Most humans have a choice not to eat other animals, and they are moral agents unlike most other animals that just do what they do to survive.

[@FightFilms]

Supplements are not food, nor part of ANY healthful diet.

[@FightFilms]

If non-vegans cared about sentience of their food...

[@FightFilms]

Humans have no choice not to eat animals because humans are not herbivores.

[@nullethosechoes]

​@@FightFilms no one knows what an optimal diet is supposed to be. There are diet wars, and diet communities are like religious fanatics about their beliefs. I don't want to get dragged into that. Supplements are a way to get the nutrients one needs, no debate required. It's cheap and convenient too.

[@Magnulus76]

B-12 and vitamin D are ridiculously cheap. Not even comparable to buying chicken breast, eggs, or something like that. I live off Social Security but have no problem affording vitamins.

[@gaspingfortruth]

Why do vegans hate plants so much ?

[@richardgamrat1944]

They dont

[@mr.c2485]

Good question. Plants have feeelings too!

[@richardgamrat1944]

@@mr.c2485 They don't

[@Kvothe3]

They don't, they love them. Farmed animals consume way more plants in feed than humans could.

[@randompersonontheinterwebs1348]

@@Kvothe3 Yup, iirc 75% of agricultural land is used for animals, even though the fraction they make up of our food is much much smaller. Eating meat needs much more plants, not less.

[@FightFilms]

Meat contains essential nutrition that plants do not. Debate over.

[@fukpoeslaw3613]

lots of people in India don't eat meat like lots of Tamils for instance so I guess it's very well possible to get in your body everything you need

[@randompersonontheinterwebs1348]

Which nutrients? B12 is in eggs, dairy - I can't think of any others (EDIT: I said algae before, that's the case for Omega-3, not B12, whoops)

[@FightFilms]

@@fukpoeslaw3613 People in India have some of the worst health outcomes, like high rates of diabetes, and very low mortality. Thanks for proving my point.

[@FightFilms]

@@randompersonontheinterwebs1348 Carnitine, for starters. By "meat", I meant "animal products", and you can't get eggs without killing chickens or milk without killing cows, so you might as well eat them.

[@randompersonontheinterwebs1348]

I admit I hadn't heard of Carnitine, but apparently "Healthy individuals, including strict vegetarians, synthesize enough L-carnitine in vivo to not require supplementation" (Oregon State University website). For that matter, afaik most meta-analyses find positive correlations between vegetarian diets and health - of course correlation is not causation, but it's clearly possible to be healthy without eating meat.

[@anupagnanakan2021]

Loved this! I’ve always wondered about veganism, on its own, and going vegan as a Christian. Thanks so much for this wonderful debate.

[@Actuary1776]

I find the “regenerative” meat industry argument funny. The animals aren’t given a better life because it’s the ethical thing to do, they are given a better life because the humans eating them believe it tastes better and is more nutritious. Not sure I find it any more virtuous than the wholesale market.

[@cookshackcuisinista]

Amen brother!

[@FightFilms]

Do you have any evidence for this?

[@pdxnikki1]

And they, excuse me, I, feel more self-righteous when eating sustainably raised meat. But it's not what I eat thank God that imparts righteousness; it's Christ alone. He is the Lamb from whom I eat.

[@nullethosechoes]

The "regenerative" meat industry would be better for animals that are killed for crops for animal feed like they are today. Animals like insects, mice, rabbits etc, would not be killed by humans, although the alternative use of that crop land could be just as bad.

[@afunreb1681]

animals have no instrinsic moral worth. they're not capable of being victims. COmpletely irrelecant

[@KingdomUploader]

Ideally, though it's impossible for me, I would raise my own animals, butcher and eat them. The meat industry, though convenient, is absolutely barbaric.

[@KingdomUploader]

@@wickedmongoose Ultimately, I'm holding out hope for "Lab-grown" meat; no killing of animals there!

[@ericgokey]

Great honest and powerful video Pastor. Thank you for the video

[@mottgirl13]

This is one of those agree to disagree non essentials. At the end of day, kudos to both for making their case for their way of eating. Stay United in Christ alone everyone!!! ❤️

[@cookiain]

God bless U Greg Boyd!

[@machtnichtsseimann]

Yes, God bless him...AND Joshua Jones! ;-)

[@BucNas7y]

@@machtnichtsseimann Vegans only care about themselves.

[@cookiain]

blurred_clarity_ ha! I just love Greg and I love that he’s speaking about this. Also I’m not currently vegan.

[@machtnichtsseimann]

@@cookiain - Getting back to my point, which you seem to be proving quite well: Why do you wish blessing only on Greg? Because you agree with him and it feeeeels so good? If you consider Joshua your "enemy" on this topic, bless him as well. ( Unless you aren't a Christian, then all bets are off. LoL. )

[@cookiain]

Macht Nichts Sei Mann you’re taking my comment way too seriously dude. All I meant by it was I was stoked to hear Greg talking about this. Have you ever tried eating plant based for an extended period of time like a year or two?

[@britstickle5698]

This is an interesting dialogue. As a seventh day Adventist I’m a vegetarian and I have friends and family that are vegan. I thrive on dairy and eggs in addition to legumes and fruits and vegetables. I think that everyone needs to eat the way that makes them feel best.

[@timid3000]

Lovely attitude, don’t consider the animals and their suffering, just eat the way that makes you feel best.

[@HelenEk7]

How do Seventh Day Adventists view the miracle where Jesus blessed fish and bread and gave it to 5000 men to eat?

[@nut913]

Hey I’m SDA in Kansas City MO! God bless

[@agrajyadav8888]

I was a vegetarian, i didn't eat eggs however. I am now a vegan as I saw what happens in dairies. Guilty of the seventeen years I have consumed it :(. But no more.

[@HelenEk7]

@@agrajyadav8888 So if you had your own backyard chickens, you could still eat their eggs?

[@CaptainPantys]

Acts 10:9-15 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.” “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.” The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.” Some people who are weak in the faith might not understand this so you should be careful not to be divisive and cause someone to stumble. If the person that you are around will be offended you should remain from eating it. Romans 14:20-21 Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense. It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.

[@Magnulus76]

The story is actually about eating with a gentile, not with the ethics of diet.

[@CaptainPantys]

@@Magnulus76 My point is that there is a secondary issue here. That's what I love about The Bible, you can learn indirect lessons about God while learning the direct message of the verse at the same time.

[@UnfamiliarPlace]

38:27 Of course, most things we call vegetables are actually fruit... :)

[@davidlines7]

Do moral absolutes exist or not? Christians will say there exists these universal, God derived, moral absolutes like “it is always wrong to kill innocent life. In fact, this is thee main argument for the Pro-life position. We see in this video that this absolute is not so absolute and is by no means universal (Applicable to all life). Don’t get me wrong, I like going to Lucille’s and eating some innocent beef ribs just as much as anyone. However, I’m not claiming that these moral absolutes exist.

[@mr.c2485]

We have bigger problems than using animals as food. When we’re using humans as food, then I’ll look up.

[@jamesfortin4525]

One of the greatest contributors to climate change is factory farming. The leading cause of deforestation is factory farming. Yes, there are major issues to be addressed in the world that have nothing to do with animals, but our treatment of animals and how they're raised is having a devastating impact on our ability to ensure a stable future.

[@machtnichtsseimann]

@@jamesfortin4525 - "Devastating" is highly debatable. I'm rather persuaded by Patrick Moore who claims there is simply no crisis in deforestation, regulations exist in the Amazon that aren't reported, and that we're fed a lot of propaganda which are blatantly false. Why? BIG $$$$ in Environmentalism. If you don't toe the party line, you lose your employment. So, "job security" is behind the Lie of Climate Change Alarmism, basically.

[@lindacarroll5018]

I dislike the phrase ‘popular lifestyle choices’ We’re discussing sentient creatures being exploited & slaughtered. There is no choice if there is a victim. We’re dealing with suffering animals.

[@jeffrockwell1555]

Veganism is not a diet...simple as that.

[@jamesbyrne3033]

Correct, it's an ethical position against the violent abuse and exploitation of other sentient creatures.

[@lindacarroll5018]

Try to reconcile all the moral references to empathy, compassion, kindness, non-harm, with the deplorable suffering endured by defenceless sentient beings.

[@stevenrogersfineart4224]

Amen brother. Animals are beautiful. Every one of them. God loved them enough to want to have an ark built to save them. I have a hard time grappling with the beauty we had before the fall and God thinking that animals should be a companion to Adam BEFORE Eve and then going from that to telling Noah that all the beasts were free for him to kill as long as the lifeblood is not in it. I do eat meat and feel like a total hypocrit for contradicting my gut. I literally JUST saved a fly from my room and if I had to kill an animal myself I wouldn't willing do it and would go find the nearest carrot. So I should not be any diffent because I can hide behind the grocery store doing it for me :(

[@samvandervelden8243]

experiment with some different mock meats and other replacement products, eventually you will know which are tasty and then you can just replace your animal products

[@andyrussell7506]

@@samvandervelden8243 Just because you say so your not on buddy

[@stevesharpe3370]

You can’t stop eating meat even when you know it’s wrong because you are addicted to the flesh, and the sin of gluttony. Give up meat and you will be closer to the word of God

[@alansutton9388]

Passover menu Last Supper wasn't vegan didn't Our Lord give dietary directions. Why don't these chattering holy Joes go into the desert and live on locust and honey wearing hair shirts. Amen

[@scipioafricanus2]

Boyd will be transitioning to very poor health as well.

[@Joe-dz2fl]

Not as bad as Jordan Peterson who almost died eating only meat I promise you...

[@josephbrandenburg4373]

There are 55 comments on this video right now, and already half of them are from the stereotypical obnoxious, pushy vegan. Don't you people know you're hurting your case? I clicked on the video with an open mind, scrolled through the comments... I haven't even clicked play and I've already made up my mind.

[@fukpoeslaw3613]

they are actually right but don't listen to me I eat meat I don't like'm too I mock them but I know they are right guess I'm a hypocrite do I deserve hell?

[@BucNas7y]

Vegans will tell you they are vegan but hide their faith more often than not. They are pushy and arrogant unlike how Greg came across. Their opinions are just that opinion and often they are followers. No need to pay these clowns attention. They are the Pharisee's (pushy vegans) of the food industry lol.

[@timid3000]

Well we’ve got your number Joseph. Your mind is made up by the comments of others? That’s a very mature approach. Personally I stopped consuming animal products because it’s impossible to do so without causing horrific and completely unnecessary suffering to others. I can’t for the life of me see why the actions or comments of other vegans would have any relevance whatsoever to that decision. I suppose if I was a bit of a coward I might just continue participating and take the high ground by saying that it’s because some vegans are pushy and obnoxious. What a pathetic attitude that would be though. Do you know what I mean?

[@pdxnikki1]

Attack the argument not the person.

[@HelenEk7]

I just had two separate Vegans tell me that people in my part of the world should all move somewhere else. Which would literally be millions of people.. Because the local food is not sustainable. (I live in Norway). The arrogance is rather shocking to be honest.

[@lindacarroll5018]

This is a discussion about the Old Testament. Jesus brought in a whole new perspective.

[@lindacarroll5018]

We’re really speaking about Animal Rights.

[@DiegoJPinto]

How is it that the debate started with both parties agreeing that the procedures the food industry uses don't align with christianity due to all the suffering caused but then it turned into whether or not meat eating is right or wrong and how Jesus ate animal products? Was Jesus eating meat from a calf that was forcefully fed and tortured while kept in inhumane conditions? Did he drink milk from one of the millions of cows that are forcefully impregnated to produce the milk? The problem is for those who have access to alternatives. Not people in the first century or those in precarious situations.

[@eddiespiked]

Humans are equipped to be omnivores- not to mention regenerative agriculture is one of the best tools we have to reverse climate change. When properly done and well managed, grazing can bring back to life a significant portion of the Earth’s landmass. A clear signpost which brings about the kingdom of God.

[@Iamwrongbut]

“When properly done” is the key to your comment. Factory farmed meat is basically all people have access to - what is sold at supermarkets and almost every restaurant except for the most expensive. Factory farmed meat is the opposite of done well or done naturally - it is torture of animals simply to produce as much meat as possible and make things cheaper. That kind of think seems the opposite of Christian love.

[@ChickpeatheTortie]

No we are not. Foxes and bears are natures omnivores. A fox or bear can kill and eat a hen in a matter of 2 minutes whereas you have faff around whilst someone kills it for you then it has to be cooked for about 4 hours until (i) it is safe for you to eat it (ii) that the flesh is soft enough for your pathetic weak jaws to even be able to chew it - you silly man. Also in the Kingdom of God also known as Eden it says quite clearly that humans are to eat the fruit from trees not animals - read things propertly - you silly silly silly little man.

[@FightFilms]

@@Iamwrongbut Most meat in the world is grass-fed.

[@noname-dw9te]

@@FightFilms no my dear. I've seen all your dumb comments and clearly you have NO idea about the subject, go and educate yourself

[@FightFilms]

@@noname-dw9te Yes, it is, actually. Step out of your ignorant, pompous and condescending Western bubble.

[@courag1]

I don’t think that Greg might maintain his point of view if he educated himself on watching videos of the inhumane ways that even dairy is produced or that the amount of pollution of runoff from farmlands raising crops to be eaten by the animals raised for the pleasure of our pallets, there is a BIG dead zone off of the mouth of the Mississippi in the Gulf caused by the runoff of which I referred to. Then there are the health studies of vegan doctors who reverse heart disease with a vegan diet and reverse cancer and lower blood pressure and cholesterol and reverse diabetes. The longest lived people on Earth are vegetarians and if they do eat animal foods, it is likely only fish and that rarely even then. The only group of very healthy people in the US are in Loma Linda as that is were their Adventist University is and the study is done on 7th-Day Adventists of whom many follow a vegetarian diet. The meat eating group does not have a lot to say for itself as the vegan athletes out compete the meat eating ones these days. Then there is that the vegan diet reverses many chronic conditions from obesity to crippling arthritis, a thing I am most familiar with as these are two major benefits I know of first hand as I used to be in a wheelchair and thanks to going Plant-Based, I am free of arthritis as well as eczema, asthma, high blood pressure, high cholesterol and reversed my pre-diabetes, now my A1C is 5.1. And at 69, do I take meds? NO! (Except if I have an infection or an injury). I lost both my mother and sister to breast cancer, my father from Alzheimer’s. I don’t have cancer nor is my cognitive ability slipping. Unlike most people I see these days, I am not obese. I shed that weight and my weight is not yo-yo-ing up and down either. The food is delicious. But then I’ve gotten over my addiction to dairy foods and don’t miss the arthritis, scaly skin or chronic constipation it gave me as well as brittle bone. Kale is wonderful, I had two broken bones and the kale and other leafy greens worked better as the calcium tablets I was told to take did absolutely nothing. Being Plant-Based has put my health more in my own hands. Yes, there is learning involved but what is wrong with that? It was after going vegan which I did for my own health reasons that I understood the ethical reasons and I am ashamed that I did not think about this much earlier. But at least I got there. I never killed an animal hunting at least. I just am saddened that so many people are not even willing to try veganism as preventing disease is far better than losing body parts like happened to my husband, having his prostate removed from stage 4 cancer. Hideous to see him in such pain. I was already vegan 5 years and he would not try what I was cooking. After the surgery, he would and he has gone vegan too. He has no more asthma and his was severe. His arthritis is better, his weight is also better. He looks well. His friends his same age also who were retiring. 3 of them got prostate cancer also and often for radiation and chemo. 3 months after their treatment began, they all died. Both breast cancer and prostate cancer are strongly linked to dairy and meat consumption. My husband is still in adult diapers 6 years after the surgery. Would he have had to have the surgery had he gone vegan when I did? I don’t think so, others have reversed or put their cancers into remission if the cancer was caught 5 years earlier. And he has to live with that. If this is you and you can stop this horrible cancer or if is breast cancer, please wake up!

[@stevesharpe3370]

Red meat definitely causes cancer I had colon polyps at 22. Look up colon cancer it’s definitely caused by red meat and low fiber diets. Even after quitting meat a few weeks ago I feel remarkably better, lost weight, no more heart burn and better attitude as well. I don’t know how people can argue it’s not good for you.when fruits and vegetables literally contain all the vitamins, meat has protein and iron and not much else, not to mention everything that’s added in it Like a cigarette I think most people who argue that meat is good for you are addict to the flesh and in turn are glutinous. The same way pot smokers are constantly trying to defend it, in order to convince themselves there is nothing wrong with their addiction

[@courag1]

@@stevesharpe3370Great post. So glad you wrote. It is disheartening how many Christian’s don’t see that killing animals or paying others to do it, is thinking you are paying a hit man , that you did nothing wrong. We, the 1% get hit with the same horrific weather judgments. And when the stores open again, they’ll be eating to increase their illnesses and what their children will suffer, is directly from the way they were raised. Guilt is a good thing, it is something that helps us to repent. Jesus told us to repent, and Paul told us we are under Free Grace. Who died for our sins? I will listen to Jesus. Not because I am earning my salvation, it is because I love Him!

[@cord11ful]

While I'm in the unresurrected body I'll eat the animals God clearly allows us to eat, preferencing humane practices as much as possible, and not condemning others for their choice.

[@samvandervelden8243]

Please bring on comsicskeptic

[@jeydubc1828]

I mean, Jesus ate meat. Veganism is incredibly unhealthy without expensive and careful supplementation. I think we should eat meat as ethically as possible.

[@lark8356]

Grace and Peace to you. Eating meat is symbolic of being sustained by the body of Christ, who sacrificed himself for us. He is the lamb, the bull and the goat. Eat the meat and drain the blood. If you eat meat, then eat it to the glory of Yah.

[@pdxnikki1]

Wow! Well said!

[@lark8356]

@@pdxnikki1 Thank you!

[@joshdives101]

He seems like a nice guy , genuinely. But maybe lost in the weeds of what it means to not kill. Plants are alive, bugs are alive. The amount of animals killed to harvest crops commercially is a lot, so if you were to take a hardline stance to avoid the killing of animals, you would have to grow your own crops (difficulty). It all just seems lost in the weeds of humanity rather than getting the point of things. Don’t kill people , be good stewards of the creation and don’t be cruel. And if you want to eat only plants then that’s your prerogative, but I don’t think it’s a moral high ground.

[@froyaw7239]

The idea that people would have been vegetarian after the fall would fit into the fact God in Genesis 9:3 told Noah meat would be for him to consume as the green herb after the flood, but Noah wouldn't have been naked. Now here's a controversial question, with there being no death in the new heaven or the new earth, the question to eating meat is in all aspects as we know in order to have meat, is death of an animal to occur, but that's not even the controversial question for myself, as I have a understanding of how this could happen without death of an animal here on earth let alone heaven. The controversial question I have is, you can have tasty healthy or unhealthy food naturally or unnaturally occurring, but the purpose of eating and drinking is to sustain life, so what would be the purpose of eating at all, especially as death is efferocytosis based for part of digestion? It is a pickle of a conundrum; like having a square circle, you couldn't possibly think it's logical, unless you have to describe a non graphical illustration to a child that only has a concept of a square and circle, then having to describe an octagon.

[@lindacarroll5018]

We’re speaking about sentient beings Not Meat.

[@Actuary1776]

I’m no longer a believer and I certainly don’t agree with Boyd’s religious construct, but if Christianity must stay I would take his version of it hands down.

[@pdxnikki1]

I was a Jewish atheist for 54 years. Had I wanted a god which I did not- the very last one I would've chosen would've been Jesus. I didn't choose Jesus because I wanted a god; I chose Him because He is true.

[@afunreb1681]

as someone interested in christians, i strongly disagree.

[@shepherdcreation2549]

Animals were not on the menu before the fall. Eating meat is a fall thing, God is moving us toward the day He returns and restores the created order. Animals are sentient beings who feel. I hear the argument about regenerative farming and am for that over and against industrial farming as we know it. But animals won't be on the menu in the new Kingdom. So people of faith have a responsibility to witness to that Kingdom now. People of faith also have a responsibility to help restore our Edenic relationship with all animals, to understand who they all are and how to help them thrive, including those animals we use as food. Animals are companions and part of the beautiful creation God made and we should protect and care for it, not destroy it. It is also debatable whether or not Jesus ate lamb or fish. The word 'meat' is something to consider also. In many contexts the modern word 'meat' which means animal flesh did not mean animal flesh but simply food; one needs to examine the context as well as understand the culture. A larger study of the original word needs to be done in all the contexts in which the modern English word 'meat' is being used. Joshua, God does do the same thing he does for divorce, in the verses in Genesis 8, end of chapter, he tells us it is because of the hardness of our own hearts that he relents and accommodates us and gives animals over to us for food. Also, Joshua, if we stopped raising animals for food and the world came together on this, and raised vegetables and grains we could solve the hunger problem in countries where they don't eat meat because they can not afford it and are often starving because all food is scarce. It's a weak argument. Joshua, the lion will lay with the lamb, the lion will not hunt the lamb anymore for food!!! They will eat the grasses or the plants as they once did in Eden. I agree with Greg, any violence leads to violence. Let's define violence? Let's split hairs you mean, Joshua! There are types of violence that are beneficial? Perhaps in the fallen world, but we are not supposed to live according to the patterns of the fallen world, Joshua! Being made in the image of God is about role. The role God gave us in the garden of Eden was to care for, protect, and oversee the rest of creation to see that all of it flourishes together. "If we are defined by reason and morality, then reason and morality must define our choices, even when animals are concerned. When people say, for example, that they like their veal or hot dogs too much to ever give them up, and yeah it's sad about the farms but that's just the way it is, reason hears in that the voice of gluttony. We can say that what makes a human being human is precisely the ability to understand that the suffering of an animal is more important than the taste of a treat." Matthew Scully

[@HelenEk7]

Humans need B12, and until we can get that without meat or supplements I see nothing wrong with eating meat. And fish is a great source for vitamin D. In heaven B12 wont be a concern anymore, so then we can eat plant based, as before the fall.

[@shepherdcreation2549]

@@HelenEk7 B12 is not a product from animals. It comes from the soil and water, it is a micro organism that creates B12. The soil is so degraded from the way we farm that now they even have to give livestock supplements of B12. Why not cut out the middle man and just take supplements and end all the torture and obey God's ideal will to eat only plants.

[@HelenEk7]

@@shepherdcreation2549 The only reason you are alive, is because your ancestors ate animal products for thousands of years. If they had been cutting out the middle man and been eating soil instead then all humans would have been instinct long time ago. In other words, the only reason you are here, is meat.

[@shepherdcreation2549]

@@HelenEk7 that is untrue. Our foods used to be so much more nutrient dense with all kinds of vitamins and minerals, including B12, needed for good health. In ancient cultures and even in the not so distant past humans used manure to fertilize the food they grew and vegetables had a considerable amount of B12. Seaweed consumption can be dated back at least to 2000 years BCE and is a great source of B12. What we produce in the way of nutritious produce today is a far cry from what the soil could produce before the chemicals now used in factory farming. Do some research on it, you shall see.

[@HelenEk7]

@@shepherdcreation2549 Which post fall culture was able to survive on plant foods only?

[@matthewsera3585]

plant orchards, bamboo and follow permaculture principles baby

[@outerspection7321]

Surface level thinking (for both of the guests)

[@KingdomUploader]

Enjoyment, humph. Pleasure, humph. Eating any food for the taste of of it, humph. For believers, followers of Christ, out priorities seem pretty Hedonistic! My view is that we eat for sustenance and if it happens to taste good, then that's the gravy.

[@jeffreywp]

Disappointing discussion (not really a debate per se). I’m Christian and vegan.

[@everythingisupsidedown9593]

Plants move and grow with music, talking and affection - not just those with a 'nervous system'.

[@samvandervelden8243]

Evidence?

[@Pedro2NR]

Is my rice screaming when I cook them in the pot? Should I give CPR to my carrots when they are rinsed in a bowl of water?

[@firangele8094]

There was a time in which we had to eat meat to survive as a society, however now eating meat is just not sustainable. That’s being said by the World Health Organization, and many studies done about sustainability like the one made in Harvard 2019 and Oxford to give some examples. We raise and kill 70 billion animals annually around the word. Those animals eat plants, actually 9 times more than humans, they use the majority of our water and all of their waste, including antibiotics go to our soil, and rivers ending up in the sea, and for this reason fish isn’t even healthy! We kill 2.7 trillion sea life every year and 3 out of 5 of the ones we eat are by catch. The largest nutricional organizations around the world approve a plant based diet for every stage of life, abs many studies, more than a hundred show how a pant based diet can reverse abs prevents coronary hearth disease and many other devastating illnesses around the world. There are many places on the Bible were God asks us to stop sacrificing animals to get forgiveness for our sins! God wants us to change our hearts repent and follow his commandments. He wants us to clean our hands of blood. 😢 we are destroying the temple he makes us, our body, destroying the planet, and killing innocent animals in the process. God said “Do not kill” he didn’t specified just humans. 🙏🙏 I have been Vegan 4 years, I am healthy, and happier now knowing that I don’t have to kill to eat. There is not a humane way to kill someone that wants to die. 🌱🌱🌱💔🙏

[@jamesbyrne3033]

Should people who believe in a benevolent God, choose to violently exploit and kill sentient creatures that the same god, deliberately made with the ability to suffer and the desire to live? In a word, No. Obviously they should not.

[@HelenEk7]

"Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26 for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.” 1 Cor 10:25-26

[@williegolden]

Abunch of false teachers coming together 🤡

[@Joe-dz2fl]

Jordan Peterson almost died, he got severely ill... but wait his diet was just a coincidence?...

[@HelenEk7]

So you believe the medication he was on had nothing do do with it?

[@Joe-dz2fl]

@@HelenEk7 His daughter Mikhaila introduced him to the carnivore diet which almost killed him. Around June 2020 she announced on her Instagram that was reintroducing fruits and vegetables into her diet after her autoimmune conditions returned when she went carnivore. Jordan Peterson was very sick, couldn’t sleep, could barely stand up and would often black out. These are all side effects linked to this diet. He was then prescribed with benzodiazepines which he got addicted to... so yeah the medication messed him up but after he depleted his body from all the essential nutrients not found in meat.

[@HelenEk7]

@@Joe-dz2fl So his wife getting cancer had nothing to do with it then I guess.

[@Joe-dz2fl]

@@HelenEk7 yes he was also on antidepressants, but his dosage only increased after his wife got cancer. He was already very ill before that.

[@Magnulus76]

@@Joe-dz2fl Gluconeogenesis doesn't work very well for some people, your brain actually needs glucose to function and the liver has to make it, if your diet doesn't have any. So it can stress the liver to eat a very low carb diet, and this might be why Peterson had problems on such a diet. Avoiding bread and pasta is a good way to lose weight, though, since bread and pasta are fairly calorically dense. Stick with carrots and sweet potatoes for carbs. There are also alot of fun things like shirataki noodles and pasta now days that have almost no calories and are a good source of fiber.

[@lindacarroll5018]

Isn’t the discussion about ethics & moral action?

[@gingrai00]

I think we can all agree… we should not eat vegans😎 Do I still need to watch?

[@pdxnikki1]

Hitler was a veggie. I wouldn't eat him.

[@HelenEk7]

haha

[@leahandriley]

If we eat animals we are saying our taste buds are more important than the animals suffering. Health is a smokescreen. There are so many life long healthy vegetarians and vegans. It's all about taste buds and not wanting to change to improve the world, by ending animal exploitation.

[@Matthew24.4]

Nonsense. The health benefits of animal foods are very well documented.

[@FightFilms]

There are none and plenty of very sick ones.

[@pdxnikki1]

Wait a sec; didn't God clothe Adam & Eve with animal skins? Is God then immoral? When Yeshua partook of the Passover lamb, was He reprobate?

[@elsjemassyn8921]

I loooove Greg Boyd Jesus clearly said in Hosea 6:6&7 God wants MERCY not sacrifice and in knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings. Vs. 7 But JUST LIKE Adam they contravened God's covenant and acted unfaithful against God. Jesus repeated it in Matthew 12: 7 Read Isaiah 1: 10-15 Vs. 15 Your hands are covered with blood

[@juliemayes2027]

Veganism is a healthy lifestyle but Scripture says not to judge what someone else eats but Christians have freedom to be vegan and God did say we should look after the animals which slaughtering them the way it happens is absolutely NOT looking after them but it’s an individual choice I am a Christian and a vegan because I just can’t eat an animal treated way they are in intensive farming and way slaughtered but some vegans take things too far in my opinion

[@andyrussell7506]

OK we all go veggie or vegan what do the farmers do with their heards of cattle no leather for shoes Sheep no wool for clothing no poultry no eggs, where does it end ?

[@tonyoliver2750]

Romans 14:22 "One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables." NIV

[@hughmarcus1]

Perhaps a verse quotes out of context?

[@tonyoliver2750]

@@hughmarcus1 Or perhaps not. Veganism is always an ideology - unlike vegetarianism. A vegan's commitment as far as I can see is to animals, whereas, and I speak as a former vegetarian of over 35 years, a vegetarian is largely motivated by (as I now know) a wrong conviction that a vegetarian diet is healthy. I take from Romans 14:22 that it is not unethical to eat animals, which is in sharp contrast to the view of every vegan I know, none of whom cites health as a reason for their choice.

[@hughmarcus1]

@@tonyoliver2750 Thanks Tony. I'm a livestock farmer, so as you can imagine, I get a bit of 'feedback' from a minority of vegans on social media. Many claim that it's a healthy diet, even though there's lots of evidence that it can lack nutrients.

[@tonyoliver2750]

@@hughmarcus1 Hi Hugh. After being rushed to hospital in 2017 with BP 213/111 I was prescribed statins. As a life long non smoker and daily jogger I was surprised when I was told that I had a 1 in 3 chance of having a stroke or heart attack. I spent about a year and a half researching statins, cholesterol and diet. Thanks to Ivor Cummins, Dr Paul Mason and Dr Malcolm Kendrick's work over the last few years I changed my diet to a low carb/high fat diet with plenty of fresh meat every day. Within two and a half months I was 2st 4lb lighter, my BP was normal and I no longer had the anxiety that had plagued me for over 30 years. I never took the statins and at 67 I am not on any medication.

[@hughmarcus1]

@@tonyoliver2750 I'm with you on that. Though I'm guessing we might not be too popular on this thread :)

[@nullethosechoes]

Regenerative farming is not here now, it's an ideal. People who eat meat today, even if they buy locally, will pay for crop related deaths and systematically abused animals in these industries. An ideal is not reality, and it's not the future way of producing animal products, because it will be too expensive for the consumers and require too much land. Only the rich would be able to afford those types of products. Joshua cannot compare welfare of farmed animals to welfare of with wild animals, because farmers control how many that will exist. In the wild, we do not have such control. We can easily just not breed more animals and solve the welfare issues. Joshua talks about crop related deaths from producing plants, and ignores the fact that most of these crop related deaths happen because of demand for animal products. Animals need to eat. We are not at his ideal stage yet where there are regenerative farms everywhere. Wild animals will kill each other and cause suffering to each other naturally already. Crop related deaths by humans may be bad, but the alternative may not be great either, even if it's natural. Vegans also want to improve the systems too.

[@nullethosechoes]

People shouldn't support the most common form of farming today if the only defence they have is that regenerative farming is better. In the US for example, about 99% of meat comes from factory farms.

[@nullethosechoes]

Violence against animals do lead to more violence against other people. We can see this simply by observing the behaviours of slaughterhouse workers.

[@littleboots9800]

Could you elaborate?

[@nullethosechoes]

@@littleboots9800 you could google this. It leads to increased crime rates, domestic abuse, drug problems etc.

[@littleboots9800]

@@nullethosechoes what does? Working in an abattoir? Besides, how could you prove it causes it? How do you prove the link, if it is indeed there, is causal and its not just correlation? How do you account for the fact that certain types of ppl may opt for that work rather than be made that way by the work? Are the rates of DV, criminality and drug abuse higher than in the average population or higher than in similarly paid occupations? Telling me to just Google something instead enough. If you state a position as a fact that is not widely known or accepted then you should be prepared to say where your evidence is from when asked.

[@nullethosechoes]

@@littleboots9800 since I can't post link, search for "Slaughterhouses and increased crime rates An Empirical Analysis of the Spillover From “The Jungle” Into the Surrounding Community".

[@afunreb1681]

and veganism leads to more violence against humans as if evidenced by some vegan activists who go as far as engaging in terrorism

[@gretareinarsson7461]

If God created all live then obviously God presumed carnivores. If she did not not then why do they exist? Or did they change from non carnivores into carnivores? And most probably Jesus did eat meat since that was one part of the died during his time. I think an informed, balanced and healthy diet that fits each persons lifestyle and makes one feel good is best.

[@ChickpeatheTortie]

As you believe in god (Jehovah) might I suggest that you read Genesis at least

[@gretareinarsson7461]

@@ChickpeatheTortie I have multiple times. Do you believe it literally?

[@ChickpeatheTortie]

@@gretareinarsson7461 No I do not believe in God/Jehovah you do though - you are the one stating god created life. I don't believe in Jesus either - you are the one mentioning him - not me. You are the one that is saying that God created carnivores not me - I suggested that you go and read Genesis again. The god that you are wittering about told A & E to eat the fruit from the trees.

[@gretareinarsson7461]

@@ChickpeatheTortie And your point is?

[@chrisbliss7]

you are what you eat and if you eat carcasses hey but feel free to do as you please you have free will, I have not been ill since turning vegan no sniffles no fever or puke, I will gladly take care of you though when your acidic body needs to breakdown and flush itself, milk and egg = hormonal imbalance, cow's milk is for baby cows to gain 400 lbs pronto, Adam and Eve were vegan, that is the best it was and it'll ever get.

[@chrisbliss7]

29:30 strawman fallacies, dodge ball, haha so should we get naked ha ha HAH! not funny, cling to your death and swine's flesh

[@RobertSmith-tc1oc]

Jesus brother james was raised vegetarian

[@DecentFellowship]

I am not a vegan; Jesus did, after all, eat fish. But I have pondered this passage: Genesis 1:29 "And God said, 'See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is [i]life, I have given every green herb for food'; and it was so." This is the way things were before the first sin...both people and animals ate nothing but plants in Eden. There were apparently no carnivorous animals there, or perhaps they learned to be carnivorous after the fall? This does sort of imply that all of creation changed in some way because of sin. Of course, Eden was a very different purview or iteration of the earth; but I do consider that the redeemed person could be empowered to return to that pristine non-violent state. We note that the Lord's sacrifice ended the need for animal sacrifice. (I will say that factory farms are nothing but evil. If we're going to eat animal products, we need to think about the impact on our environment and whether the farming practices are humane. How we think about the lives of animals can be reflective of our attitudes towards humanity.)

[@tionarry]

Fishes ate plants?

[@pdxnikki1]

Does Greg keep the Kingdom Feasts too? Those are observed in heaven.

[@pdxnikki1]

Romans 14

[@Benjamin-to2zq]

I am a Christian, and eat an almost exclusively meat based keto-vore diet.

[@HelenEk7]

Jesus ate both meat and bread. But every person gets to eat what is best for them.

[@ChickpeatheTortie]

@@HelenEk7 Where does it say precisely that jesus at meat - go on tell where.

[@ChickpeatheTortie]

How very noble of you - you are obviously very keen on making as many animals as possible suffer to support your disgusting habit.

[@afunreb1681]

@@ChickpeatheTortie animals arent capable of suffering and besides their have no intrinsic moral worth. WE don't accept your presuppositions so your retorts have no value

[@jamesbyrne3033]

Then you're not a Christian are you? If you believed in a benevolent god, you would not violently abuse and exploit sentient creatures that the same god deliberately created with the ability to suffer and the desire to live. That would be crazy.

[@mottgirl13]

Genesis 3:21 God already provided skin to Adam & Eve. That means an animal was sacrificed. Must be a prime one… if we are going along the gospel message.

[@Artspeakcentral]

The animal that provided Adam & Eve’s clothing died of natural causes / old age. FACT: Red meat causes inflammation in the body that is the likely cause of certain cancers = Karma 😝

[@HelenEk7]

@@Artspeakcentral But you are ok with fish? Since Jesus ate fish...

[@Artspeakcentral]

@@HelenEk7 I’m not a vegan as I do eat fish & eggs - maybe that’s a bit selfish too, but overall I do my best not to participate in any form of cruelty & expect the same from fellow Christians & I know that the real ones think like me on the subject of eating animal flesh, which is horrific behaviour towards helpless animals that feel pain and fear and loss as much as we Humans do.

[@ChickpeatheTortie]

@@Artspeakcentral If you eat fish you are participating in grotesque cruelty - fish feel pleasure - they like to be stroked - so be definition they MUST therefore feel pain. Leave the animals alone if you want to life a decent life.

[@JR19578]

@@Artspeakcentral So God made it specially unhealthy so it would die so young?

[@ericgokey]

Amazing video I need to let you know. I'm the author of a vegan Christian book. Designed to turn vegans to Christ following....and to turn Christians vegan. The book is "Let My people go " people as in people and animals. So "Let My People Go" by Eric R Gokey

[@thanakritsuwan6219]

One of followers ask Jesus why Join have meal with those sin people(Tax collators and butcher) Jesus said we respect all people even they committed the sin and You are free to have meat. It is your choice but I am not Jesus said.

[@andyrussell7506]

Let's put the facts on the table The veggie guy says he doesn't kill anything. However if you pull a carrot out of the ground you have killed it and that goes for all veggies and vegan diets. In order for us to eat a sacrifice has to be made. I am really getting fed up with vegetarian and vegans dictating to me what I eat what I consume at meal times. You want to go the veggie and vegan trail well do that. I WONT OR WANT TO JOIN YOU ON THAT TRAIL MESSAGE DELIVERED .

[@DiegoJPinto]

Yes, this is very important because carrots have the capacity to suffer.

[@andyrussell7506]

@@DiegoJPinto So going down that road means we are all going to STARVE

[@Pedro2NR]

@@andyrussell7506 I don't think you understood Diego's sarcasm. Diego means that plants don't have the capacity to suffer. There is no nervous system connected to a brain. Unlike animals who try to escape harm. They do have emotions and know the smell of blood at a slaughterhouse. Plants do not go through the same thing. I don't drown my berries/veggies when I rinse them in a bowl. I can't give the carrot CPR. My rice doesn't scream when I steam them in the pot. These are logically instance that my young children can understand.

[@andyrussell7506]

@@Pedro2NR Pedro are you a carrot so how do you know what a carrot feels God gave man meat to eat the bible tells us that, as well as the plants and herbs to use along side the meat. I have no objections to veggies and Vegans eating whatever they want. But I do object to this dictatorship that is beginning to show its head from that side of the camp telling me what I should eat. No way will I stand for that. Also from your post you are dictating what your children will eat also disgraceful behaviour

[@Pedro2NR]

@@andyrussell7506 I am a carrot? 🤦🏽‍♂😂 God gave man meat to eat? Wrong! "And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food." -Genesis 1:29 This is God's original dietary plan. No one is telling you what to eat or what not to eat. God gave us free will. Just like God gives us to the choice to with him or not. You say you hate the dictatorship camp but you're clearly in one from the animal's point of view. I'm only responding your misinformation but you continue with your choice. I continue to give dominion over the animals. My interpretation of dominion is to give "compassion and protection". Just like we want God's dominion over us.

[@kensmith8152]

I was never healthier as when I was vegan. I feel that God would rather us to be healthy than sick. And I feel we are more able to be spiritually healthy when we are physically healthy. Is that legalistic, I don’t think so.

[@colmwhateveryoulike3240]

Yes but be careful not to extrapolate your experience to others and prescribe veganism to everyone. Some people have the experience of being healthiest when eating meat.

[@kensmith8152]

@@colmwhateveryoulike3240: There’s an article in the Journal of American Medicine that says otherwise. The study shows that vegan’s can live 10 years more on average

[@BucNas7y]

@@kensmith8152 An article is all great an all but I know people who used to be vegan and switched and are far more healthy with less complications. As the above comment said you can't blanket your experience over others as it's scientifically inaccurate. I love meat and am far more healthier and have more energy than when I was a vegan. So your point is mute about some article. lol

[@kensmith8152]

@@BucNas7y : Of course it’s important how it’s done too. It needs to be balanced, use of whole grains and low in sugar and salt. Diets with meat have been found to have higher rates of colon cancer.

[@FightFilms]

@@kensmith8152 whole grains contain toxins and anti-nutrients and salt is very necessary for us to function well.

[@ClassicJukeboxBand]

Veganism is purely a liberal diet. Veganism fits perfectly with all liberal causes such as global warming, environmentalism, central planning, authoritarianism, feminism and government control. Vegetarianism in modern America actually came from The Seventh Day Adventist Church in the late 1800's by a member named Ellen G White who didn't want young people to have sex, and recommended vegetarian diets for her church. This church founded the American Dietetic Association back in 1917 and has been pushing this non-scientific nonsense about the benefits ever since. All dietitians have to be certified by the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, which the American Dietetic Association became. This means just about all dietitians favor a plant based diet, and it's not because of the real science. It's because of puritanical loons like Ellen G White and John Harvey Kellogg who hated meat for religious and sexual reasons that we have this plant based false propaganda about the benefits of plant foods.

[@noahhaight4842]

Meat yummy

[@northernlight8857]

So is much of the attrocities of the world.

[@noahhaight4842]

@@northernlight8857 😂

[@kM-ij2ly]

Joshua a true man of God

[@TheWriteAnt]

A good resource for meat as it relates to pollution is the channel What I've Learned and the video titled - Eating less meat won't save the planet. Here's why

[@samvandervelden8243]

It's an incredibly biased channel, no serious scientist would take him seriously especially if they read through the study he used to prove his point. The study was extremely poorly conducted and has been criticized by other scientists for that reason. The author of the study even admitted that his study doesn't prove that animal products aren't bad for the planet

[@TheWriteAnt]

@@samvandervelden8243 I don't find your response convincing. He's provided responses to various criticims in the description of his video (or pinned comment) which may just answer the issues you and others have. Also, I've seen a number of his videos and I don't get the sense that he is acting in bad faith. With regards to the particular detials of what study is good or accurate, that is up to the individual to investigate themselves and come to their own conclusion.

[@samvandervelden8243]

@@TheWriteAnt the authors of the atudy themselves admitted that their study doesn't show the result of what would happen with a plant based system