Should I buy this airplane? a Mooney M20J

Video of me going over this Mooney M20J from 1984, should I buy it? Familiarizing myself with this particular model and what it might need.

[@timothywackerle2374]

That's a beautiful airplane. I've owned several Mooney's and still have one. Strong, fast, efficient. They're a good tall person's airplane. I'm 6'4" and have to move the seat up to reach the rudder pedals. Shoulder room is a bit tight with big guys up front. Great IFR platform, very stable. Very responsive on the controls, Mooney's do what their told without lag. You could easily get rid of the KNS-80 and install a Garmin 175 or if you wanted to go big, a GTN 650. Honeywell/King now has slide in replacements for the KX-155's also. I've used that autopilot for years on another of my planes and it's a solid performer. As you know, you've got an engine overhaul right out of the gate. No small cash outlay but that should be considered in your purchase price. It's a good bargaining chip because not alot of people want to tackle that straight away. My final point is, you will not be sorry buying a Mooney. I've owned many aircraft over the years including twins and I've come full circle back to a Mooney.

[@trueairspeed130]

thanks for sharing your experience. Definitely need a new avionics set up. I will post a video as I go through the options.

[@alexeygusev698]

thanks for sharing. How did your Mooneys behave on grass fields? Would you stay away from grass if you could?

[@timothywackerle2374]

@@alexeygusev698 I have landed on grass often. As long as it’s kept short it’s no problem. As you know, the gear doors are fairly close to the ground. But there’s no reason you can’t land on grass with the proper soft field technique. In my opinion.

[@alexeygusev698]

@@timothywackerle2374 never flown a Mooney, hence the question. I am more concerned about allegedly weak front wheel assembly which may collapse if the surface is somewhat rough. This seems to be collective internet wisdom, I have no idea how far it is from reality.

[@timothywackerle2374]

@@alexeygusev698 I have not heard that nor have I experienced it. Mooney’s have direct mechanical linkage which is geared to raise and lower the gear. Even if the mechanical downlocks were somehow to fail you’d have the resistance of the geared mechanical holding it. I’m sure this could eventually give way as well. So I feel that if anything, it’s less likely to fail than say a Piper which is hydraulic and once the downlocks are defeated, that’s all she wrote. Mooney’s do have a limited turning radius and one has to be very careful to not over stress it when using a towbar/tug. I never let ground crew move my Mooney.

[@bigdaddie40]

I love my 1980 M20K. 160kts on 10 GPH, you can't beat it.

[@trueairspeed130]

thanks for confirming the expected performance.

[@bigdaddie40]

@@trueairspeed130 Keep in mind, I fly higher since it's a turbo (just a standard 231 TSIO360-LB with intercooler and Merlyn wastegate). For shorter trips I use 12,500 so I don't need oxygen. Longer trips we go to wherever the favorable winds are. The K really shines up high. Flying from California to Oshkosh last year, we saw TAS of over 180kts above 15,000 and maybe 160 around 10,000. I usually run 65% power unless it’s a long trip into the wind where I’ll bump it up to 70%. Unless you fly in high terrain, the J is a great airplane because it will outrun our K at the lower altitudes. You’ll love the airplane especially at the gas pump.

[@acronutz]

Got curious myself on the max allowable oil consumption according to Lycoming. It calculates out to 0.64 qts per hour. I would still absolutely be negotiating price based on a timed out engine, but I would not hesitate to fly it home!

[@trueairspeed130]

thanks for looking into that, I was wondering about that myself.

[@LFOD1776]

I owned a 1984 M20J. The most magnificent and expensive years of my life.

[@trueairspeed130]

how long ago?

[@johnvassallo2937]

Flew my 1977 M20J until I lost my medical. I was heart broken when I had to sell it. If you buy this plane you will smile every time you T.O. and lift the gear.

[@trueairspeed130]

sorry to hear that, glad you enjoyed it, looking forward to what you are describing.

[@gamefreak28610]

Price for an overhaul on an IO-360-A3B6D starts at about $42k without installation from a reputable shop. Expect the first annual to be at least $10k. Check the logbooks. Expect to reseal the fuel tanks soon if they haven't ever been done. I just bought a 1980 that has only had the tanks patched, knowing that they leaked. If they have never been resealed, factor >$10k to reseal them. Not sure how much extra it is to reseal the long range tanks. Check the landing gear rubber discs, they are $140 each and really add up if you need all 11 of them + labor. Usually you can get 15 years out of them. Definitely need to crank the engine....there are many mechanical gauges that you will need to check. If the JPI is not a 900 series, you still legally have to have the mechanical gauges working. Go ahead and have the all the IFR checks done on the prebuy. My altimeter was off by 80ft at sea level and had to be sent out to be overhauled. Transponder antenna was the one that was originally installed on the plane in 1980 and needs to be replaced.

[@trueairspeed130]

A lot of great info, thank you.

[@smoepick5855]

The 1980s M20Js are good airplanes. Check for fuel leaks, spar cap corrosion, steering horn/nose landing gear truss steering bushing ware, trim clevis bolt damage, and pushrod end ware/damage. The engine time is less of a factor to me because AEIO360s are bomb proof as long as you use them often and change the oil regularly. The consumption could be driven by lead deposits on the rings. Borescope the cylinders and check for valve issues. It is hard to find angle valve cylinders right now but not impossible ($2500 ea). Gut the avionics put in a Dynon sky view system with a Avidyne IFD440 or Garmin GPS175 navigator. If the items I listed are good and the price is < $100k it would be a go for me, however, I am an A&P IA with a proclivity for Mooneys. I maintain ~15 Mooney and a few Daher TBM aircraft every year. Fly Safe Arrive Safe!

[@trueairspeed130]

great info, thanks. This one is an IO-360 with a Firewall Forward STC with higher 10:1 compression cylinders. I like the idea of the avionics, I do have a G430W laying around that was refurbished last year by Garmin, so I may just put that in there for now, before committing to more expense before I know where I am at with the cost of the engine work.

[@DanFrederiksen]

I heard engine overhaul has gotten very pricey. Like 100k no matter what you want. This was youtuber personal wings who has a lot of planes including jets. Cirrus was 103k, the other was a cessna t182 which was 97k$. Not a new engine but just an overhaul. Personally I'm allergic to old planes. Unless you absolutely need the 4 seats I'd say a Lancair 320 or 360 instead which are much faster and newer, fresher planes. There is actually a 1992 Lancair 320 with only 676 hours for sale for only 72500 because it's painted pink like pink panther. If there is nothing hidden wrong with it that has to be a much nicer owners experience. Looks fresh, flies fresh. Swap the analogs for a garmin g3x and you are in business. a new paint job is more predictable than the racket that is lycoming engines. And swapping avionics in a certified plane is a costly thing I hear.

[@trueairspeed130]

I agree on the Lancair 320 / 360 being more economical options, unfortunately I bought one and I didn't fit in it, I'm 6'1".The one you mention is actually the one I'm selling :) As for quotes I have obtained for the overhaul of an IO-360 $45K.

[@DanFrederiksen]

@@trueairspeed130 you own the pink panther? :)

[@trueairspeed130]

@@DanFrederiksen were two owners. We have a person checking it out on Friday, but it's still for sale on trade a plane.

[@DanFrederiksen]

@@trueairspeed130 are you actually too tall for it or imagined? 6'1 is not exactly freakishly tall

[@trueairspeed130]

@@DanFrederiksen yep my head touches the canopy, my knees touch the panel. I could modify it cut out the back seat and offset, but not worth it to me.

[@timothywackerle2374]

⁠I know they make rudder pedal extensions for the Mooney. You might have a problem reaching them. I’m 6’4” and I actually have my seat one notch forward from the fully back position. Also you do sit a bit recumbent in the seats like a sports car. But they also make booster seats for the Mooney seat. I had a friend years ago, a Vascular Surgeon from Argentina who was 5’6” who insisted on having a Mooney. He made it work.

[@trueairspeed130]

Thanks for the insight, it's good to know that people of different sizes can make it work.

[@acronutz]

Real numbers, Lycoming Factory rebuilt is 48K, 55K for overhaul. and 91K new. Overhaul at a good indepenedent engine shop will likely be 40-50K, not including removal or installation. Budget 5k-6k for labor and other stuff you will want to replace. These angle valve Lycomings (like this Mooney has) burn some oil. They have oil jets that squirt oil at the backside of the piston for cooling. This drives oil temps up a bit compared to the lower powered parallel valve engines. One quart in five hours is not uncommon on a healthy angle valve motor. So while 1/2 a quart in an hour is not great, it is also not necessarily that bad. Lycoming has a formula based on horsepower for max accepatable oil consumption. You are probaly close at 1/2 qt/hr.

[@trueairspeed130]

sounds about right. This engine is a Firewall Forward sTC Horsepower plug with 12% more hp, which is practically 225hp. The original STC holders Firewall Forward company quoted $45K for the overhaul.

[@acronutz]

@@trueairspeed130 Take a look at the Mooney Space forums on this mod. Not saying it is "bad" but if you overhaul you may elect to go back to stock config. I have one of these engines on my RV6. When I bought it it had 10:1 compression (like the FF STC). It ran hot on my airplane. I had the engine repaired at one point, went back to stock compression. Did not notice any power loss, ran cooler, and I feel better about it.

[@philippeginoux]

since 2022, I rent exactly the same plane (without the speed brakes), for 10 gallons / hour, in my opinion, that is unbeatable. I love this machine. except the RPM indicator on the right side, otherwise, everything is perfect.

[@trueairspeed130]

Thanks for the feedback

[@jonasbaine3538]

Where do you rent a Mooney?

[@philippeginoux2427]

@@jonasbaine3538 LFMV

[@FlyingNDriving]

Looks like monroy long range tanks, different armrest plastics to make the cabin about an inch wider, you got a jpi. Nice electric trim, Quick connect for a battery tender. No gps and old vac 6 pack with the sloped windshield gonna make panel upgrades a nightmare. I see an a/p so no being expected to hand fly for the 10+ hours of gas you got on board. I am also not a fan of the D magnetos single drive input shaft that's on the m20js. You need to ask when the pucks were last changed and if the fuel tanks were ever resealed.

[@trueairspeed130]

Thanks for the advice.

[@bernardanderson3758]

The Mooney is a nice Aircraft and right now you have the best time yet to go out and look around

[@trueairspeed130]

I will look around ,thanks.

[@MooneyM20J]

Most J models have an IO-360-A3B6D engine, which produces 200 HP. What engine does this one have that produces 225 HP?

[@trueairspeed130]

It has Firewall Forward LLC stc called horsepower plus, higher compression

[@deanc.5984]

Old radio stack is what I used in the early 90s! I flew NDB approachs😅

[@trueairspeed130]

I was trained to do NDBs but haven't flown them much, are they still used in the US? how about abroad?

[@utah20gflyer76]

Personally I don’t see the need for extended tanks or speed brakes on a J model. Mooneys slow down just fine and who wants to fly for 9 hours straight?

[@trueairspeed130]

ah ha, but you do want extended tanks if you want to cross some bodies of water and have plenty of reserves. Not saying you will be flying that long, unless unforeseen diversions. As for speed brakes, I'm with you, probably don't need them, and if on final doing a go around, better remember to pop them back down. I might never use them

[@reyesben]

I wish all engine gauges were up high like that. Mine are at the bottom and hard to glance quickly

[@trueairspeed130]

Good point

[@soggyplanks]

Could you share how you priced it with the SMOH? Looking at a > overhaul and wondering how people are pricing that in.

[@trueairspeed130]

For starters you don’t have to overhaul if you don’t want to as long as you’re not hiring it out. I was quoted $42k by a shop. You can probably do it for less “field overhaul” if you can find the right A&P IA

[@soggyplanks]

@@trueairspeed130 absolutely. I plan on getting an oil analysis and I already know this plane. I don't know, however how long it will go so for pricing sake, did you estimate a good condition, low time one for market value then prorate the entire engine cost if it's past TBO? or would you say estimate a 3k hr lifespan (say it's at 2k now, TBO) and you depreciate it 66% instead? Or do you not go with either and price it under market just slightly?

[@4420dano]

well, it needs an engine and a panel -- 100k, minimum. afterwards, its worth maybe $180k? Low tt so that's nice. therefore, buy it if he wants $75k or less. that's the math. But buying an airplane is never about math, is it?

[@trueairspeed130]

Great comment.

[@ChampionJockey_James]

Great plane

[@trueairspeed130]

thank you ! I hope to post more videos in the near future.

[@KevinGee-w3b]

It would completely depend on the price you could negotiate. Obvious maintenance hurdles aside it's a nice plane and would be good for traveling. I wouldn't fly around on that engine very much longer without an overhaul though.

[@trueairspeed130]

thanks for the advice. I factored in the overhaul with the purchase price.

[@dreamcreator2552]

If your wife says Ok, buy it !

[@pauldirschka7052]

Nice vid, thanks! Of course a careful review of the logs is important, all AD's identified and addressed. Maybe the plane has bladders, so tank resealing should not be an issue. The donuts on the gear might need replaced. What is the condition of the nose gear truss, they are sometimes deformed by overzealous ground crews. The plane looks very well cared for, I'd still look in a couple of inspection ports on each wing and the main spar under the rear seat and in tail. Interesting that the engine is more than 200hp. I'd like to know how that was accomplished. Love the Stratus ESG. Better buy her before I do. 😂 Good luck!

[@jcraigshelton]

Mooneys are fun and fast little airplanes.

[@trueairspeed130]

I agree.

[@williambeatty7781]

An overhauled engine is going to be 50k before it's ready to fly. To bring the board into the modern age will be a sizable sum of money as well especially if you want to get rid of the vacuum and gyro instruments. Budget 100k to get the plane into modern times. Nice looking plane though.

[@trueairspeed130]

maybe, with that much money into it, it will be an awesome plane, already pretty great the way it is. I ended up selling it anyway, want a high wing.

[@kellypoor]

What were you recording the video with? Very good audio and picture.

[@trueairspeed130]

thanks iPhone 14 pro, + remixing on Da Vinci Resolve

[@SierraBravo7970]

Just curious did you ever purchase this mooney?

[@trueairspeed130]

yes, I ended up buying it and selling it, I didn't keep it long, because climbing in and out wasn't the best.

[@SierraBravo7970]

@@trueairspeed130 definitely understandable!!

[@yueelson]

Nice! I'll swap for my 20C 😄

[@trueairspeed130]

It sold for $80k

[@2005CessnaPilot]

Next....move on with an overdue engine. What else was extended? Get one with low to mid-time 600-1000 hrs. since rebuild. You could get 10 years with average flying.

[@trueairspeed130]

that's a fair assumption, what else were they delaying, trying to avoid.

[@tshinefield]

Buy It!!!!!!!!

[@trueairspeed130]

I did and sold it already

[@FlyingNDriving]

You know what they say, "If you have to ask..."

[@trueairspeed130]

Yep

[@bernardanderson3758]

Prebuy inspection

[@trueairspeed130]

I will be posting a follow up video soon now that Pinkie is gone.

[@beekang6708]

To me that is very nice aircraft, 2300 hrs engine is not the matter to be considered, because this is the used airplane, many airplane buyers want something cheap, but the used money is cheaper already, also you might have to upgrade some avionics to meet the current trend, to me this is a vary good opportunity to own one

[@trueairspeed130]

thanks. I did end up buying it, then didn't like the comfort for my size and ended up selling it.

[@markg4459]

Engine is the most important factor...can't see it?! Baffling. Check logs to see total hours on the engine. Has it been rebuilt previously or a first run engine? Price a rebuilt engine & new engine to include mags, motor mounts, etc. Do you know a good mechanic with Mooney experience & good engine shop? Plan on some extensive down time too.

[@trueairspeed130]

There are a lot of factors to take into account when buying an airplane, but in this case I priced in having to replace the engine. I will provide an update as to what I decided.

[@3209-f4h]

YES

[@trueairspeed130]

Update in a follow up video soon

[@shakey2634]

It’s not expensive to buy an airplane, but it is expensive to own one.

[@trueairspeed130]

can't disagree with that.

[@shakey2634]

@@trueairspeed130 I have a friend that had an old 172. He laughs when he says for what he pays in hangar rent he could park it on a tie down and with the money he saved he could just replace it every so often when it started to look weather worn.

[@2005CessnaPilot]

Yes. It's not the cost to buy. It's the cost to keep.

[@ogforever1]

Yes

[@trueairspeed130]

:)

[@Pilotc180]

Clean old Mooney; plan on $40 K for the engine and the avionics are old; that could easily run $100k

[@trueairspeed130]

I ended up buying and selling it.

[@RyanN880EP]

Thats your airplane bro😊sign the dotted line

[@trueairspeed130]

👍

[@miltonmatthews2138]

Unless you get a great deal, pass on this. The engine is run out and will have to be overhauled immediately. Mooney's are the best deal in terms of performance versus dollars but overhauls are expensive.

[@trueairspeed130]

I will do a video update and let you know what I decided to do and how I went about it. thanks for the heads up.

[@utah20gflyer76]

Time and oil consumption doesn’t mean an engine needs to be overhauled immediately. Oil consumption is a cylinder issue and provided the bottom end isn’t producing metal there is no reason to assume it won’t run for quite some time without issue.

[@dewholdingsllc1050]

Nice review. I think that model is too small for tall people.

[@trueairspeed130]

The seating is comfortable and reclined so a tall person can fit, the challenge is getting in and out

[@dewholdingsllc1050]

@@trueairspeed130 I would not want a challenge to enter or exit or doing work on an aircraft. I mean average Texan Tall. 6'6" and 250lbs. Seems it would be claustrophobic trying to travel with a family. Which Mooney models have good shoulder width and rear legroom.

[@trueairspeed130]

@ a rare one, the Mooney Mustang. I did a video on one.

[@dewholdingsllc1050]

@@trueairspeed130 I have seen your posts on that. Was that only wide body aircraft Mooney made? I think that NM plane is still listed for sale a long time. We may not be a Mooney family then. I probably need an aircraft that can be used often, parts are easy to locate and so forth. Especially not a rare collectors item sitting in a hanger.

[@trueairspeed130]

@ what’s your budget, but sounds like you need a Cessna 200 series

[@g4joe]

I would not, but then I dont fly. 😄

[@trueairspeed130]

:)

[@larrytompkins4408]

buy the plane

[@trueairspeed130]

Ok

[@jetsetter797]

A bottomless money-pit. Avoid like the plague.

[@trueairspeed130]

That’s true of boats airplanes and many other things

[@sqengineer]

I'd stay away from a Mooney. Baggage door tends to pop open in flight, if you're not real real careful. Couple of fatal accidents recently involving that...

[@trueairspeed130]

I'll look into it, I do see a log entry where it was repaired and inspected.

[@timothywackerle2374]

I have owned Mooneys for 30+ years and not once has the baggage door popped open. Can you reference the fatal accidents caused by this? I've not heard this before. I suppose if you were distracted by it and lost control of the plane you could crash but I doubt this causes any significant aerodynamic compromise.

[@sheltonm6652]

It’s pilot error, just never latching it then getting distracted into CFIT. I fly a M20E, not an issue

[@carlkenyon4599]

I had a Mooney , you close the door and look it , It never pops open. Baggage door pop open when they are left open .

[@carlkenyon4599]

@@timothywackerle2374 there was one last week ,, clearly a distraction stall ,to base thing, .

[@paulo7200]

If it floats, flies or f*cks, it's better to rent.

[@trueairspeed130]

Heard it before many times.

[@robh4671]

NO, it’s the ugliest plane there is, get a bonanza a real beauty.

[@trueairspeed130]

hmm im not a big bonanza fan

[@josefkroenauer7012]

I had a M20J for 34 years its one of the best looking and performing planes in the air. Now I have a BE33 and I am so disappointed with performance like short runways, loading and gasmileage where 1 gallon is about 11$.

[@jasonbrown2060]

No, planes are a money pit.

[@trueairspeed130]

generally they are, but mechanics have to make a living :)