Should I Get Sticky With Second Pair? | SplitSuit

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Atte calls a preflop raise with KTo, faces a squeeze, and calls closing action. On the flop, Atte check-calls with second pair and has to make a river decision getting 3:1 unimproved.
Concepts include calling vs 3betting preflop, calling the squeeze closing action, calling the flop getting a decent price, and if the river fold is any good getting 3:1.
The more often you call preflop raises, the more valuable this video will be for your game!

[@Its__Good]

My (limited) experience of micro NL is that very few people are making half stack bluffs on the river. . . . . They may significantly over value their hand but they have something.

[@Zillo91]

we could beat some valuebets here

[@KennaJames]

Fantastic series James. Professionally executed and delivered. The amount of effort you put into this is evident. The comparison tables and stats are invaluable in understanding the poker communities perspective on similar situations that we all face at the tables. Your design and approach to making this series interactive is genius. It keeps your audience engaged as well as informed. Well done on so many aspects. Congrats!

[@splitsuit]

Thanks Kenna!

[@Hotobu]

5 seconds into the video... "Fold pre"

[@splitsuit]

fwiw, calling IP and limping in EP are two TOTALLY different things =)

[@splitsuit]

Your comment made it seem like you were comparing limping *to* something, and the only thing I could guess was that you were comparing it to the action in the video. Sorry for any confusion.

[@splitsuit]

Cheers Trev. And then it's on to +$3/hr!

[@bslay4r]

As a general observation at micros below 25NL the players 1. don't bluff enough with the bet-check-bet line 2. don't cbet bluff enough in multiway pots, in fact rarely This line pretty much represents a one pair type-ish (QQ+, AJ) hand which was scared on the turn to bet because he had only a pot size bet left and 1. if he bets small and faces a check/raise he has to call 2. if he goes allin only better will call People at 25NL don't even dare to triple barrel with overpairs so yes, scared mentality exists at the micros... Sure he could have AK/AQ/KQ but I would say out of those at NL5 people tend to just overcall with AQ and KQ and they tend to checkdown with AK which has some showdown value. If you make those herocalls at NL5 you gonna make your life harder and climb the stakes slower.

[@tcashmoney1751]

bslay4r Agree with this, I think there’s a lot of top pairs / overpairs that might check the turn when the offsuit 9 hits in the micros, completing some straights and some two pairs. I personally would check the turn with QQs+ AJs, as my hand is almost always behind if I get C/R and there aren’t a ton of second best hands that would call a decent sized bet on the turn. Maybe we bet small to get value from second best hands and draws with the intention of releasing to a C/R and checking back river if we’re called (unless we improve). But with two callers, even with aces I think I’d check the turn in Adrian’s position. Maybe the optimal line is to bet small with all of our hands, but my initial inclination would be to check

[@tiagomota4734]

i totaly agree with you ^_^

[@fundiver198]

I agree. I also dont think, there are a lot of logical bluff combos the way, this hand played out. KQ got there, and 98 picked up showdown value. Which leave us with the flushdraws, and with the K, J, T all spoken for, there are like 5-6 reasonable combos of those, which did not pick up a pair. Then there is AK, but does he really C-bet AK on this flop into two opponents, and then resume bluffing with it on the river? The C-bet would be questionable, because how often does it really get through both opponents, and like you say, AK has some amount of showdown value, so why bluff the river. Hero need to be good here at least 25% of the time, he only beat a bluff, and I dont think, we are looking at 25% bluffs here.

[@folked-up]

Ax spades?

[@lightningt12312]

bslay4r agreed, villain has an overpair and played scared on the turn, don't call in the micros (live it's another story).

[@MartialNico]

Maybe Adrian checked the turn for fear of a straight?

[@fundiver198]

I completely agree, that Hero should never have gotten involved preflop in the first place. And for that reason analysing postflop become a bit irrelevant, since it wont happen again, if we play preflop better. However as played I dont mind the river fold. In my experience it is pretty typical for players at the micros to check back turn with their value hands in a spot like this, where a major straight draw came in, and they got two callers on the flop. And to be honest I also think, it makes a lot of sense. Because KQ is certainly a hand, that people could be opening or calling from EP, and then also choose to call a 3-bet with. So the 3-better was most likely on straight watch, but when both opponents checked to him on the river, he felt confident, he had the best hand and went for a thin value bet of around half pot on a completely blank river. Could he be bluffing? Sure. But in general, if you always fold bluff catchers in spots like this at the micros, you are going to increase your winrate, since bluffing frequencies are pretty low for most players.

[@antjoshwww]

A big percentage of the time checks are truthful so here 3:1 I would call or raise if I know the player or have played most of the time with this guy.

[@benjaminwilliams1536]

Before about 7:30pm & after around midnight I've been noticing when I have a solid hand nobody has sticky fingers but when I'm bluffing I'm getting called almost 95% of time by mid or even bottom pair & this is happening on Bovada. It's gotten to the point I'm only profitable between 7:30pm & 11pm. I won't play after midnight anymore.

[@paulpena5040]

Let me sum up every Poker bank video you will every watch : * Don't be a nit * Bet larger

[@danyalam2465]

If he had jj+ and ako and aks you still would have 30+% equity Why did you fold that?

[@RackwitzG]

I would've folded preflop too, even without a raise. And PT tells me I'm even losing money with top pair, so what do I know?

[@user-ud8mt]

K10off omg man u should steal with this , defend bb not jump into pot from UTG open. James as always on point 👍

[@splitsuit]

=)

[@LuxiusDK]

Nobody cares about your range, nit.

[@CryHavoc17]

Isn't this a pretty great spot for a thin value bet OTR? We should be check calling with this action anyway and I have a hard time believing villian is going to raise us almost ever after he checks back turn.

[@splitsuit]

I think trying to snipe exactly QT or an Ace-high call down is too difficult to do. It's not really thin value so much as turning your hand into a bluff imo.

[@FelipeV3444]

Villain could have checked turn to bluff catch river, there's a flush draw and some gutters that missed like AQ, AK. He could be scared of KQ and protect his check back range with a hand like AJ, KJs, QJs. It's true that he doesn't have a set, two pair or an overpair almost ever, and he could also have AK, AQ himself, but depending on villain he could even have 87s sometimes, like 87ss that has too much equity and doesn't need to bluff turn. I don't think calling here will be profitable in the micros nowadays, microstakes players sometimes play weird and check back there to be "tricky" without knowing they're losing value from draws. IDK if maybe a couple of years ago this call would have been fine but today I don't think so. This hand really should have just been a fold pre.

[@82PeRK]

THE HIGH 3 bet TELLS ME ADRIAN PROB HAD ACE KING. thinking thts why he checked the turn after the scare off calls from the flop bet. I THINK I WOULD HAVE CALLED. already had a decent amount invested and to me that 2.08 bet was a GO AWAY BET to scare them off. IF HE HAD THE NUTZ HE WOULD HAVE DONE A VALUE BET.

[@karlinchina]

I think a lot of players would check the turn with their made hands here, thinking (maybe incorrectly) that the turn brings in 2pairs and straights for the villains. Also, I think we should talk about the math a little on the river bet, i.e. remind viewers that we need to be right here about 25% of the time to make the call profitable.

[@splitsuit]

Totally fair points.

[@behdadjamshidi]

Do you have a video you can refer me too based on the math at the end ? Why only 25 percent of the time is that because we are getting 3:1 pot odds ?

[@splitsuit]

www.splitsuit.com/pot-odds-video-quiz

[@gogonoise]

I agree, he could easily have AJs or QQ+ at micros. Slowplayed KQ at the turn is rare with two spades on the flop..

[@splitsuit]

KQ, AJ, KK - all are strong hands that are vulnerable to the obvious draws. Why would this player make a strong distinction in line creation between each of those hands?

[@MrMorlaf]

this advice is fairly sound...... HOWEVER: It is totally removed from "table image" and "my image". Which for me are much more important than card value and position. If the table is a little bit crazy it is a fold. If the table is a bit timid it is a re-raise..... As this info is not available i think you can make your clips shorter (hence a bit vaguer) but speaking personally: Short clips are good! :-)

[@angeloperezceo8101]

Wonderful

[@lircox]

Think you are wrong Splitsuit in your assumption that most low stakes players will bet that turn against two oponents with AJ/QQ+, or at least in assuming that they rarely have that when they check. The 9 will serve as a scare card for them, rightly or wrongly

[@splitsuit]

I'm totally open to being incorrect on that assumption. If that assumption is true, the question is still "does V's betting range on the river contain at least 25% bluffs?"

[@lircox]

That is indeed the question, the answer is probably yes, although I doubt its alot more than that.

[@davidholden5189]

Sticky? You have second pair that's basically the nuts. If your opponent bets, the best play is to always just jam all in (preferably 10x pot or bigger) if he checks. Either bet 1 bb or all in. And if he raises your 1 bb than of course go all In cause we have the nutter butters.

[@LuxiusDK]

Mwahahaha! You Russians ... ;-)

[@lfgamble3924]

What about TT on a QQ5 rainbow flop. My opponent led flop from sb, he was the only caller. I opened from utg +1, for 3 bbs. I had 30k, he had 12k. He leads for full pot. I call. Turns a 6. And he lead overbet jams. And ive seen him jam in other spots that made no sense to me with any hand. Ne way, i called and he had QJ. His play made me laugh. Everytime i have nothing.. he gets nothing when he flopt trips.. ne advice or thoughts would be appreciated

[@FireHydrant7]

I think adrian played that a lot like KQ would play it... Not really sure why you say that checking the turn would tell us otherwise. I think the fold was a proper play, but the check on the flop and turn wasn't.

[@splitsuit]

Not being combative, but why would KQ want to check behind on the turn and both a.) miss a possible street of value and b.) allow a free river to be a 7,8,Q,K that might totally kill action from a Jx or sticky Tx hand? Not saying KQ might not do that, but that wouldn't be my default assumption.

[@imteamcaptain]

Maybe a bricked AK/AQ flush draw turned into a river bluff after checking back turn for free river? I also have trouble calling in these spots though, especially live 1/2 and 2/5 where it seems like people have so few big river bluffs in their range.

[@bbbulldog61]

fold pre-flop. fold flop. call river. I don't care if I'm getting 3 to 1 to call the flop. There's really no good turn for that hand except a ten.

[@noex100]

A ten, the ace of spades, or any queen (7 cards) would be a fantastic card for hero's hand. And even a king is a pretty good card. There's no way you can fold the flop needing just 21% equity for a profit. And honestly, a flop shove is a pretty good option as well.

[@jimmythewig3354]

I think he was up against A6 spades.

[@itzjunk3456]

I play $1/3 and im considering quitting my job to play poker. I want a 50x bankroll starting at 10k so that means i can buy in for $200. With a maximum of 2 buy ins per session. Is this wise or are there any adjustments I should make before i make the move? Let me know your opinion. Also in 2016 I averaged $15/hr over 360 hrs and in 2017 I averaged $22/hr over 385 hrs. Let me know your opinion , monthly expenses including savings are 2,000

[@splitsuit]

Start with this guide: redchippoker.com/should-i-become-a-poker-pro/

[@itzjunk3456]

James (SplitSuit) thanks man I really appreciate it

[@gabrielvictor9065]

FLORIDA MAN How you doing?

[@chanceneck8072]

Oh god, K,T off? I very rarely even play K,T off.....

[@michelcharbonnier7603]

Open from HJ or at least CO, Call on BUT vs. CO or HJ, Call in Blinds vs. steal... I think KTo still is usable in various spots, even though it's far from a great hand. But obviously, calling a UTG open in UTG+2 in FR is a pretty horrid move.

[@Stockhandle123]

that rake doh

[@1chance4life76]

bet 2.25 on the turn and fold fold win

[@1chance4life76]

gotta give yourself a chance to win at some point during the hand, rep the straight with a gut shot and a pair

[@tinman00]

Donk bet the river

[@chanceneck8072]

I agree, I think the value hands in adrians range that could beat us are some very rare J,T and K,Q! And THATS IT!!

[@mero40k]

You beat a number of bluffs from an in-position player. Hes never calling with a J multiway on that board. And you pretty much have the nut 10. Snap call.

[@kharnacier3372]

Couldn't be 33, 66 or 8s7s too ? It could explain the $0.87 bet on the flop, no ? 33 could be slowed by the scary 9, 66 could have stabbed for info or easy win, and 8s7s could value a draw ?

[@passdasalt]

Have to give email to get quiz results...Boooooooo.

[@purplehaze1488]

raise river

[@purplehaze1488]

ship it

[@noex100]

LOL Wrong.

[@purplehaze1488]

noex100 bluff the kq straight

[@noex100]

You think the opponent is going to fold for $1.94 when the pot is $8.22? Dude... no.

[@purplehaze1488]

noex100 ehh worth a try if you turn up with it most of the time too, I have actually seen people fold for less too, literally last night in a 3bet pot they they called down little over 2/3of there stack or there abouts and folded my shove river even though river changed nothing whatsoever and board was dry/static too like no straights to chase or flushes there was just trips out there.

[@24magiccarrot]

Your analysis here is way off. Most pros would check at least one street with just an over pair to the board. You don't ever want to be building a big pot with just a pair especially in a cash game.

[@noex100]

With an overpair in position I absolutely want to be building a big pot. And the open-ender that QQ picks up on the turn, or the gutshot for KK, makes me all the more confident in betting the turn. If you're checking back the turn with an overpair you're making a big mistake.

[@24magiccarrot]

noex100 So Hellmuth, Negrenu and Ivey all usually check one street with just an overpair but their all wrong.

[@noex100]

First off, I was referring primarily to this hand, in which it would be just silly to not bet KK/QQ for value on the turn. With AA you can either check or bet since AA has no redraw and doesn't block any straights. Let's avoid talking about abstract strategies and talk about actual hands. Speaking of which, though, the last time Hellmuth had AA on Poker Night in America he checked his overpair on a great board and let Boeree catch her set. So yeah, don't check overpairs unless the board is crazy or you have a tell that your opponent has a monster. And finally, remember that this is a 2c/5c game online. In those games (unlike the games Ivey and other pros play) you can easily get paid off with your value hands, so checking makes little sense. In a $5/$10 live game it can make a lot more sense to check back KK on the turn (but definitely not QQ).

[@TeamThorntonGames]

this guy is bad

[@WebColorsGr]

Lol K10 hand and you analyse it?

[@splitsuit]

I'll be sure to just analyze AK and AA for now on I guess!

[@mero40k]

Its actually an interesting spot.

[@WebColorsGr]

James the only thing we can learn from this hand is that we should fold preflop. Thats why I say you dont really have to analyze the rest.

[@xxxViceroyxxx]

>we should fold preflop Not necessarily.

[@splitsuit]

I respectfully disagree that there is zero value in exploring the postflop concepts even if preflop should have been a fold.