Should Star Trek's Federation Actually Have a Section 31?

[@Vesperitis]

I think it's always important to remember that all of DS9 was aired before 9/11. A lot of its themes and subject matter were eerily prescient.

[@TheSorrel]

Probably because it aired after the Cold War

[@tonoornottono]

9/11 popped a bubble that had been growing for a while. artists were talking about the cultural situation long before that particular political statement… hit new york

[@TheChancellor212]

@@tonoornottono we sometimes forget that 9/11 was the *second* terrorist attack on the World Trade Center.

[@jenniferh3587]

And some of it wouldn't be done the same way if it had aired after 9/11. Exploration of reasons for terrorism wouldn't have happened.

[@artemismoonbow2475]

That is what was so awesome about it, after the fall of the wall 89 and the Oligarch Coup in the USSR 91, America underwent an idealistic utopian delusion and a triumphalist honeymoon. Sec 31 was the Star Trek version of "Smells Like Teen Spirit." All is not well in the burbs and we need to grapple with this. We didn't and after 9/11 we went on a 2 decade binder of revenge and empire building that we called justice and democracy spreading. Our chickens are coming home to roost right now with rising domestic fascism because we cannot deal with our dark side. Trek is awesome.

[@andrewbesso4257]

It's not that Section 31 wasn't "part of Gene's vision". Section 31 is so top secret that not even Gene Roddenberry knew of its existence.

[@Slopmaster]

That’s because Gene L. Coon was a section 31 agent 🤓

[@micahbush5397]

Star Trek got better (at least for a while) after Gene Roddenberry died; his idea of an "evolved" humanity was stupid. Species don't evolve substantially over a few generations (short of some *massive* die-offs that heavily favor relatively rare traits).

[@MBaldelli]

I would like to add the whole deal of Section 31 was the attempt for Paramount to cash in on the whole conspiracy theory crowd of X-Files. Roddenberry being an ex-cop didn't like the thought of Internal Affairs -- in spite of the need and necessity within the police force -- and did everything in his power to make humanity as altruistic and enlightened as possible that it didn't need to exist. The execs didn't like the altruism and bogged it down with as much bureaucracy as possible to make it more "realistic".

[@seandobbins2231]

​@@micahbush5397sure, but when Gene was saying "evolved" he was referring to a social evolution rather than biological. That aside, what's ironic is that a lot of people did die to get to this more socially evolved humanity - some 30% of the human population and 600,000 animal and plant species went extinct alone as a result of WWIII, which people were feeling the effects of 100 years later. Overall, it's a social evolution, it took a lot of death to change, it wasn't a smooth transition, and took more than a hundred years to fix, which even then only applied to Earth, not to humanity in the rest of the quadrant. By the time we see Kirk for the first time it's been some 200 years since WWIII. It's also important to keep in mind that nearly all social issues are based on the control of resources and the desire for power over people using resources so when you have war that exposes pretty much all of humanity to these issues, destroys all government, and kills a lot of people, it's natural that we'd socially advance beyond that given the time. The question of the social evolution of humanity isn't a matter of if or how much time, but what it will cost to get there.

[@frederickdouglass7140]

Yes😂😂😂😂😂

[@dianacrow9400]

"Like all Starfleet captains, I'm also a lawyer apparently." Very accurate

[@MrWassup45]

It makes sense, Starfleet captains are expected to interact with a variety of alien cultures and are also some of the first representatives of the federation during a first contact mission, a knowledge of those cultures laws would probably be seen as essential in order for the captain to prevent any diplomatic incidents but to also be an effective representative and legal council for the crew incase they do run astray of the law, which happens all the time.

[@IronWarhorsesFun]

To be fair would need a working knowledge of the law to be a captain.

[@dieseljester]

Well its not like we ever see a Judge Advocate General's corps in Starfleet. :D

[@tuttt99]

@@dieseljester we did in TOS "Court Martial"

[@seandobbins2231]

Well, to be fair, the "lawyer" bit is a little hyperbole on Steve's account, but the basic idea makes sense, especially according to Naval traditions. A captain is responsible for their officers and would make efforts towards their defense. It's also worth noting that JAG wasn't permanently established until 1849 so before then Captains were heavily involved in legal matters and Star Trek loves to use old traditions. That aside, in instances like with Picard and Data it also makes sense since when you're out on a ship legal matters can't necessarily be handled in the same way due to more limited legal personnel so regulations exist to account for those limitations. Overall, I don't really see the issue here and thinking from a meta perspective it makes sense because it utilizes the regular cast and allows for character development rather than having a random character fill the role only to disappear into oblivion later. Honestly, I just don't get the issue here.

[@JDODify]

I really like the Sloan character - he's totally convinced of the Righteousness of his actions.

[@LordBloodraven]

The writers had him walk that line between righteous and self-righteous very carefully. It made him compelling, but didn't change the fact that Section 31 was willing to do immoral deeds.

[@IronWarhorsesFun]

Without that virus the Dominion would never have surrendered. I say that section 31 is justified in being the Guard Dogs at least that one time. In any case It would be foolish to assume an organization like that doesn’t exist weather it’s official or not.

[@DoctorProph3t]

He’s a True Believer. Rare, in real life, uncompelling and 1 dimensional as fictional characters. Which is why I love the episode where they do some Star Trek shit to enter Sloan’s mind and the characters converse with the different aspects of his psyche, literarily breaking down the sum into its parts to explore the character. Totally subverted my expectations.

[@iceblaster1252]

@heavenly777 And yet Section 31 could’ve caused an even worse outcome if they didn’t give up the cure: without a way to get better, the dominion’s leaders may have decided to go full scorched earth like with Cardassia but on an even worse scale, as now they have no chance at winning, and with the solids clear stance on genociding *them*, they have no reason to hold back *their* weapons of mass destruction. I’d have to imagine they have plentiful biological weapons considering their indifference to solids. Imagine lone Jem’Hadar ships blitzing through battle lines towards occupied worlds, suicide attacks and bio weapon bombs in the final “hours” of the war...

[@satanicmicrochipv5656]

Intel services are a necessary evil for all governments, if they have any kind of external or internal threats to their security. Sometimes that security requires dirty deeds to be carried out. Other times, they just overstep their boundaries, but it doesn't seem you can have one without the other. You have to choose between security and the occasional misdeed, or existential vulnerability.

[@FordLancer]

When Sloan made his second appearance at the foot of Bashir’s bed I wanted him to be holding a plate of scones and saying, “Here Julian, just like I promised. A plate of hot, delicious, scones. Just for you.” 😂😂

[@laurenlovesstories]

That would have been amazing 😂

[@YesTHATJohnSmith]

Amazing AND epic!

[@JoducusKwak]

hehe, Sloan could have been for DS9 what Q was for TNG

[@gustavedelior3683]

I'm sure you can find a fan fiction that starts like that....

[@eddieZDI]

Sloan really represented a bad guy type that was very fashionable for a while there. The "There's no place for men like me in the world I want to create" type.

[@natbarmore]

What are other examples? The only other ones that come to mind are the operative in Serenity (and Jubal Early in Firefly), which happened after DS9 (but much closer in timing than I remembered), and, at a stretch, the Inquisitor in late season 2 of Babylon 5. The other characters I can think of weren’t self-aware that they were eliminating their own place in the world-they were pawns being used and then sacrificed. (With the occasional plot point of the heroes turning the pawn against the villain by pointing out that if the villain’s plan succeeded, the pawn would have to be eliminated for exactly this reason.) DS9’s Sloan is the first example I remember encountering where the skulldugger was also the mastermind, and fully realized they were destroying themselves if they succeeded.

[@kaitlyn__L]

@@natbarmore I wish I could give more specifics, but I remember such villain monologues being VERY fashionable in movies and cartoons in the 90s.

[@shanenolan5625]

@@natbarmore no place for me in this better world. ( is a line from the operative in serenity) the I don't kill children. ( I do ) I'm a monster. I have no illusions. Ect

[@Masarofia]

I can only think of Sasuke in Naruto 😂I wish we had more stuff like this actually!

[@Egilhelmson]

@@natbarmore The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance - John Wayne’s character, Tom, shot LV, rather than the saintly lawyer, Ransom Stoddard, who thought that he had, thus making force more important than the law. Actually, it is almost the fundamental trope of the Western genre, as Civilization moves in and destroys the original State Of Nature, which was the attraction at the start.

[@wheresmyjetpack]

I liked the disavowal in DS9''s version, the idea that to retain its utopian self-image the Federation had to un-know what was done to protect it. It annoyed me when they were flashing immediately recognisable black badges in Disco, in large part *because* that official recognition makes them just like real-world black ops organisations, and the more interesting thing about Section 31 to me was the disavowal by the saints in paradise. Interesting point about the dramatic irony in the Disco S2 finale.

[@wheresmyjetpack]

Incidentally I also preferred when Disco appeared to be setting up a clash between the Disco crew and Section 31, the whole AI plotline was a lot less interesting imo.

[@trekman10]

Exactly! Disco's Starfleet doesn't disavow them either, but rather has a defensive attitude about how they're a regrettable neccesity.

[@robertt9342]

Honestly they come across as just a “shadier” version of regular starfleet intelligence.

[@Wayouts123]

That. Sec 31 is in the shadows, “$5000 dollar for toilets” black budget stuff. Not in the open

[@frederickdouglass7140]

​@@Wayouts123😂😂😂😂😂 darpa

[@AdderMoray]

I have very detailed Section 31 thoughts: Section 31 works as it's originally presented in DS9: A rogue outgrowth of Federation zealots that only exists because of actions taken prior to humanity's general enlightenment. Poking their heads up when push comes to shove because its members are the types of people who only believe in Federation ideals insofar as things are relatively peaceful or at least under control. Star Fleet wasn't aware of them until they went active again and couldn't do anything to stop them because they're not a centralized body. Most of the brass opposed them and what they were doing, some of them were desperate and tempted by what they offered. This is why I felt that, if they were ever to explore Section 31 further it should be written less like a rogue black ops agency and more like a rogue sleeper cells. That as an organization while their number one priority is the stability of the Federation their number two is the upholding of Federation principles. That they don't exist as a body except when things get messier than they believe the Federation is prepared for like the Dominion War. Instead of the implication that they're a necessity for the Federation to be a Utopia and constantly operating that comes in later Trek series. Makes their ability to permeate throughout the Federation and Starfleet without Starfleet being aware and the difficulty in disbanding and arresting them far more reasonable.

[@m.gittens882]

Didn't Section 31 get its name because it was created by Section 31 of the original Federation Charter?

[@AdderMoray]

@@m.gittens882 Only in a technical sense. Article 14, Section 31 simply says that regulations can be bent in times of extraordinary threat. It does not create a special division to do so. Hence my belief that Section 31 works better as a series of sleeper cells instead of a proper group. Expanding throughout the years of the existence of the Federation through recruitment and indoctrination of powerful, well connected, or talented people and families. Filtering some into seats of power while others keep up regular training disguised as trips and vacations. Squirreling away resources and keeping up with the latest advancements in technology. Always prepared to act if they deem the threat sufficiently extraordinary, but also reluctant to make that call. Simple war isn't enough for them to go active. Basically, until they need to exist, they don't exist. This would make Starfleet and the Federation's inability to deal with them, or prevent them from gaining rank entirely justifiable. Because there's no organization to strike at, even when they're active. And when they're inactive, they're all just regular Federation citizens.

[@patriciaaturner289]

There is a saying we got from Romans. “Who guards the guardians?” I believe that is why they created Section 31.

[@zillagrilla315]

My personal Head-canons is that Section 31 does have a structure that is very similar to S.H.I.E.L.D from the MCU. Meaning Agents have a certain Level of Clearance on the organization but not enough to spill the beans in its entirety if someone breaks under tortured or got a mind-rape. Secondly, there is at least one Section 31 member on every ship no matter the Class. Thirdly when ships like the Enterprise stubble upon New Aliens and Planets by accident, Section 31 goes looking for them. Because how can they protect the Federation if they don't know what's out there.

[@robertt9342]

@@AdderMoray. Maybe section 31 changed what was publicly viewable in the charter. I like the sleeper cell concept, but I think this weakens their ability to act. I think a decentralized organization always working is possible without raising suspicions as the vast majority of time is pent nudging people, policies and events. This can even be done under false pretences and positions within the federation.

[@Theyownyou]

can we get a round of applause for William Sadlers performance as sloan? Loved it!

[@YesTHATJohnSmith]

Here, have SEVERAL! 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

[@YesTHATJohnSmith]

(I'm something of a Wm. Sadler fan, myself.) 😉

[@89DrFunk]

He played that role like a BOSS!

[@SantiSomchay]

He is the face of section 31.

[@tellesu]

He actually did a great job, and I think his fantastic performance is a big part of why Section 31 was so popular

[@sandspatel]

Hahahaha your writing for this video is so good, made me laugh out loud. “Don’t you dare bring Yami into this”.

[@robertramesy2759]

Pics

[@robertramesy2759]

Explains it all

[@IronWarhorsesFun]

Bashir was like: “There are 5 lights!” And then Sloan is like: what are you talking about? Bashir: you never saw those memes? Sloan: What is a meme? Bashir: IM FROM AN ALTERNATE TIMELINE WHERE THE INTERNET EXISTS

[@thescifiZipacna]

I always liked the idea of Section 31 as a secret society, which its depiction in DS9 is pretty consistent with. A successful secret society works and survives because any one agent is expendable. No one within the organisation knows everyone or everything. Once secret societies become too big they have to either go legitimate, dissolve, or cut their losses & start again from scratch.

[@kaitlyn__L]

Love your final sentence. I figured that’s what happened between the 22nd and 23rd century, they got too big. Then were probably publicly dissolved, as far as they were admitted to exist at all, and started again while working to stay smaller.

[@tyrant-den884]

Always rely on the 2-1-2 command structure and the Rule of 10 (not a sith thing. Report to two people, and have two people report to you. No secret can be kept by more than 10 people.

[@milferdjones2573]

There have been no successful secret societies unknown to be existing. Humans goship way to much. Known secret groups do exist and can be hard to penetrate but fairly quickly rough outlines are learned.

[@marsneedstowels]

@@milferdjones2573 Alcohol is often the undoing of secrecy.

[@akosbarati2239]

The irony is that you're describing a resistance unit, or a terrorist cell. John LeCarré came closest in describing how intelligence agencies truly work, which is also why I'd never work for one. Koval agreed to the plot of executing Cretak because he knew he can ask for a similar favor among Federation citizens.

[@Drekal684]

You know... I wonder if Section 31 typically had to clean up after Omega related incidents? A human or Vulcan scientist stumbles onto something that would normally lead to Omega, gets a visit late in the night to discuss it...

[@itsOasus]

I wouldn't be surprised if S31 was typically involved in Omega stuff yeah.

[@ZGMFX28ANuLiberty]

I mean, in the TOS novel "Cloak", Section 31 was partially responsible for the Lantaru sector incident mentioned in "The Omega Directive", so...

[@kaitlyn__L]

I always thought that was heavily implied by the dialogue in that episode about all the research being classified, but maybe it was actually written before S31 became a thing. Pretty sure it came out a year later though

[@janekalbinsky]

Great finale to this episode! "It's not about a fictional universe. The questions raised concerning S31 are about us, here and now!" Well spoken!

[@Mallory-Malkovich]

@@ohauss Does it? Lots of elements of classic _Trek_ were about what what we feared we would become, including war, totalitarianism, racism, slavery, and the slippery slope of moral relativism. Most of the _TOS_ episodes are cautionary tales of one kind or another. Section 31 is always shown as a menacing, overreaching, dangerous entity, and is unambiguously framed as the 'bad guy' in every outing. I think that Trek now (or in the 90s, I guess. Wow, time flies!) reflects our fears of corruption from within and the implications of an unaccountable deep state, but it still makes it clear that our 'heroes' are opposed to those things. That sounds like the same Star Trek to me.

[@DeanChavayez]

@@Mallory-Malkovich Yes, but, the premise of an entire show dedicated to it is not the same thing. Now that it is feature film it more like a one off book novel set when it could be argued it still existed in reduced capacity. It was not in TOS. But if we assume that DS9 was the start non condoned we have to go to ENT for the first mention before where it was legit sorta. That was United Earth when we were still figuring things out. It makes sense there. The Kelvin Timeline mention is again somewhat earlier but that was viewed as a mistake by many then. When we get to Disco you have total dial out for many reasons and that was one for some. It's prevalence is the issue. It should gradually fade out, even if still out there. You can get all that grey zone between Utopia and Cardassian levels ya want. The issue is what version are we going to get? If the powers that be call it an old org that still lingers gradually becoming obscure but glimpses appear to make one guess... Now that worked in DS9. And as an old Earth org. Fair. Not TNG or later TOS. By then it should be gone from official record. Say at least post Undiscovered Country.

[@seandobbins2231]

​@@Mallory-Malkovich@OsirisMalkovich and a lot of those elements are things that either we have already done or were doing in some form at the time. Were a lot of TOS stories cautionary tales? But they were tales based on what's happened already or is happening and taking those things to their natural conclusion that has yet to happen. What's sad is how much we can still relate to what was being commented on nearly 60 years ago. In regards to the fears of an "unaccountable deep state", we already have examples. These fears don't come from nowhere, but from what we've already seen, much like the rest of Star Trek social commentary. Sure, it's not exact - we don't have a Section 31 in real life today, but Star Trek commentary is more about drawing parallels than exactness and we have multiple examples of "secret" intelligence agencies doing terrible things and not being held accountable.

[@kingbeauregard]

One angle on Section 31 might be, suppose they also do a fair number of good guy things and that helps a lot of Federation types feel better about them? Like suppose there were some pre-warp planet where they were teetering on environmental collapse because of greenhouse gases; all that Prime Directive business would make it hard for the Federation to get involved. But suppose Section 31 were to do a decades-long intervention where they posed as a tech company that "researched" carbon capture techniques and/or green energy, thus saving the planet with a covert long-term operation. That sort of thing wouldn't necessarily excuse the shadier things Section 31 does, but it would make them a little less moustache-twirly, and that would be a positive development. And it would make it a little more plausible why the Federation puts up with them.

[@Egilhelmson]

And thus keep that world in a long-term Ice Age, as ours has been since the start of the Pleistocene? It would be nice to believe that Worf’s human half-brother was working for them when he rescued that tribal band from their dying world when Picard’s reading of the Prime Directive mandated their extermination.

[@robertstoneking7916]

@@Egilhelmson He wouldn't have been directly working for section 31 but for one of their cover operations.

[@paulsmart4672]

​@@Egilhelmson Oh wow. Naturalistic Fallacy is a rare well climate change deniers to go to.

[@Talisguy]

Regarding I Borg: Picard changed his mind when he realised that Borg raised in the Collective could regain a sense of individuality, thus actually making it genocide and not murder. Picard himself did, but he was a Borg for a very short period of time and had decades of experiences as an individual to fall back on when he was disconnected - whether or not *all* drones could gain a sense of individuality was uncertain before Hugh. And if the individuality of drones is permanently lost after X amount of time, then drones are to the Collective what individual cells are to a human body. To paraphrase SF Debris, treating drones who are still part of the Collective as individuals is like saying that it's wrong to respond to being punched in the face by kicking the attacker in the balls, because the balls weren't what punched you. Knowing that drones can gain a sense of agency changes the situation substantially.

[@kaitlyn__L]

Lastly, it’s my headcanon (and I hope now yours too) that, with “In The Pale Moonlight” being a captain’s log about events taking place over a few weeks, maybe a month and a half, that Sisko was in fact dealing with it at the moment he says “I wish I had an answer for you” to Bashir. Either hadn’t decided to do it yet, or had already done it but hadn’t yet decided how he felt about it (since he gets his closure while recording the log).

[@raven4k998]

surprise your a sleeper agent as well🤣🤣🤣

[@sanjaraejour9632]

I think something to also keep in mind is that nations don't have morals, they have interests. It's how they can gain and maintain power and resources, while also keeping such from their enemies. The latter of which is quite useful when not all societies involved are post scarcity like the Federation (ignoring the scarcity of dilithium, which is used by their starships).

[@logiciananimal]

@@ohauss There is the modest implication - I think - that the Romulan style warp drives, with the "singularity" are an example of that ...

[@YesTHATJohnSmith]

Also, since the innovation of the Spock-Scott Recrystallization Procedure (™ and ©1986, renewed 2286 by Captain M.J. Scott and Captain S'chn T. Spock) dilithium ISN'T REALLY that hard to repair.

[@akosbarati2239]

It's that I'd tell someone I don't actually know that you're utterly wrong when it comes to nations, or maybe too idealistic. In the last 100 years, Hungarian regimes have been involved in willful forgery of the French franc as a petty revenge for the Treaty of Versailles, where just as refresher, Hungary was a Central Power, and therefore aggressor. They have been involved in placating a Nazi sympathizer a few years before World War II, where they were willingly trading with Nazis and Itaian fascists, not because it made any economic sense, it didn't. It was out of spite. The national moral still is that "Holocaust was terrible but the Nazis did it, we were occupied". You could not be more wrong when you take a nation, any nation that was an aggressor in both world wars or a major player in either of them (yes, Japan, looking at you), that still depicts itself as a hapless victim who couldn't prevent any of it yet tacitly refuses to honor the actual victims. Supporting Russia by undermining meaningful sanctions on warmongers for no national interest (despite loud clinging to Russian oil, Hungary pays well above market price) is but the very definition of an unmatured nation doing a morality play. In-universe, Cardassia is a lot like that. They had the chance to open themselves up after the war with the Federation, but they refused, even willingly joined the Dominion. Why? Because others dared question a "once great nation status" they had and refused to treat them above their station. The famine on Cardassia wasn't a lie, it was self-inflicted and aggravated by tacit refusal to ask and receive help. When you don't have individualism, that's when you don't have a nation with interests either.

[@thecynicaloptimist1884]

While I feel that Section 31 got a bit overused even on DS9, the episode _Extreme Measures_ gave a great little insights into Sloan's character. When Bashir & Miles go into his mind, we see that a part of Sloan deeply regrets what he did with his life, that he feels he's been a nightmare to those who loved him, and he wishes he wasn't so single-minded about his duty so he could have just been with them and enjoyed what life had to offer. As Babylon 5 put it: "No fame. No armies or banners or cities to celebrate your name. You will die alone, and unremarked, and forgotten".

[@akosbarati2239]

Or because Sloane is an unreliable narrator that was also part of his plan to stall them long enough so they die with him.

[@elviakerlick1163]

In Sloane's mind, Bashir confronts him in his office. Sloane waves at the documents and says that Section 31 is undetectable because it has no such infrastructure in the real world, no offices, nor buildings nor starships.

[@MrOuter]

I think there's something to be said for the DS9/ENT style of Section 31. It asks something of a different question than the Abrams/Disco versions, but I'd say it's still a worthwhile question to ask. Abrams and Disco ask "How should we feel about a government that sanctions black-ops?" while DS9 and Enterprise ask "How far are you willing to go for the sake of paradise and would you look the other way if other people went further?". New Trek's version is a much more obvious parallel to the modern day considering the actions of secret services, but the older version hits at a much more personal level when abstracted out to other questions. "Are you willing to look the other way for the sake of your sweatshop made designer T-Shirt?" as one example.

[@YesTHATJohnSmith]

Childhood is admiration of REGULAR Starfleet, adulthood is the realization that Section 31 makes more sense.

[@spawnofapathy]

During DS9 I had imagined section 31 as an autonomous group. Not federation, not Star fleet, but also true believers. They are the other side of the coin. Financially and operationally independent. section 31 has operatives in federation and not the other way around. And I think that’s because I wanted the federation to still be pure with clean hands. But if section 31 reports to star fleet personnel then star fleet and the federation isn’t so morally superior. It taints many accomplishments of the federation and Star fleet, because there could be section 31 working in the background to underhandedly shape galactic politics. It makes Star Trek’s future maybe a little less hopeful.

[@robertt9342]

To me I see where your coming from. I’d say it could be a bit of both. I can see them reporting some stuff to starfleet but only through their s31 double agents within intelligence. In a way they don’t really know of s31.

[@willyvereb]

Even in DS9 version it seemed quite likely that Section 31 is just another agency of the Federation. It isn't a rouge unit or a secret society "helping" the Federation. It is a highly secretive black ops unit of the Federation. Actually this is why old school fans kind of loathe Section 31's depiction in Discovery and newer shows in general. Sure, Starfleet personnel were either working for it or were complicit in their actions, but you didn't have Section 31 agents walking out in the open. It was supposed to be hidden so thoroughly to maintain the Federation's pristine reputation.

[@itsdantaylor]

I find Sloan to be a interesting twist on the 'secret police' agent. Mostly because in most media the secret police use violence and deception while pretending to uphold certain ideals their actions go against. Sloan though seems to agree that ideals like the ones Bashir has are the things are necessary and those ideals should be present and shown to everyone. Which means the guy has to play extra four dimensional chess in order to use/show those ideals to others AND get the outcomes he wants. You don't see these spy types going the extra mile for stuff like that when simple killing/lying would be SO much easier, which is what makes Sloan so interesting.

[@Zidbits]

I think Star Trek's Federation couldn't exist without a section 31. Every other significant power in the star trek universe has a section 31; a federation without section 31 wouldn't be a federation for long as it would have minimal to no defense against espionage, spying and other hostile acts. The biggest problem with S31 in Trek is that there is minimal to no oversight. Running unchecked was the reason for 99.9% of their problems.

[@ReallyRealBenMills]

Yeah, it seems to me that someone had to ask, "When the Romulans plot against us, who will be our Tal'Shiar?"

[@wererat42]

It makes sense from a practical storytelling angle to explain that there is a Starfleet counterintelligence agency opposite the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order. From a thematic standpoint it may not fit but but practically it does.

[@HandofOmega]

I dunno, we already saw there's a "Starfleet Security", although I'm racking my brains to remember any scenes beyond the guy arresting McCoy in Star Trek III...I could easily see that being retconned to be an early appearance of S31. Did Starfleet Security make any other appearances?

[@davebathgate]

​@@HandofOmega Starfleet intelligence had O'Brien go undercover to infiltrate the Orion syndicate.

[@TheSuperRatt]

Starfleet Intelligence already existed long before Section 31.

[@kaitlyn__L]

@@HandofOmega they had O’Brien infiltrating the Space Mob, I mean, Orion Syndicate. And now Raffi doing the same on a similar planet

[@m.gittens882]

​@TheSuperRatt Didn't Section 31 get its name because it was created by Section 31 of the original Federation Charter?

[@LordWhatever]

Stalin once said: "The death of Weyoun was a tragedy. The death of millions of lives during the Dominion war was only statistics"

[@jimballard1186]

Section 31 always reminds me of The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas: an attempt to make people believe in the possibility of a utopia by insisting there's a secret dystopia at its heart.

[@raven4k998]

you don't mess with a mans stuffed animal kid🤣🤣🤣

[@GleefulNihilism]

I've frequently pointed out that the point of Section 31 is that they're the bad guys, a different kind of bad guy that reflects abuses of internal power rather then an external threat. So have a Section 31 show, sure - but remember that *they're the bad guys, you're supposed to be rooting against them at least in the long run*.

[@ditodoto9201]

Nothing can be 100% percent perfect or pure. When section 31 came up in the story line it felt right to me.

[@wolvie14]

I totally agree. No political power can survive without a Black Ops entity

[@walterlyzohub8112]

And to think humanity has been doing this since the beginning. Why not other aliens as well? Remember what happened to Miles Edward O’Brien and the DS9 “Hard Time” episode? The aliens were NOT sorry. I hope the Dominion exterminated them.

[@gulpirak]

Same. That's why I didn't flinch when ST: Picard showed a darker, more selfish and nationalistic side of Starfleet and the Federation.

[@itsdantaylor]

especially with the Pale Moon Light episode

[@robotti84]

I dont agree.

[@mkang8782]

You basically hit the nail on the head as to *why* S31 was introduced into Trek: to consider their real life analogs in our world, and whether or not they should exist. Another purpose S31's existence serves is as a warning that "patriots" like Sloan and Admiral Marcus will likely always exist. That people like them will always find some way to rationalize their actions/choices.

[@joemck74]

Section 31 is like the Cultures Special Circumstances unit. It exists because the *rest* of the galaxy isn't populated by nice enlightened beings, and someone has to get their hands (or analogous organs) dirty so the nice people don't get murdered in their beds.

[@dachannien]

Here's the thing, though: ST is indeed a commentary about us. And we, well, most of us, don't know anyone in the CIA and don't have any real knowledge (besides what the media reports from time to time when things go sideways) of CIA black ops. The crew of the various iterations of ST are meant to be our avatars for exploring our own discomfort for our government doing the sorts of shenanigans that Section 31 does. And from that perspective, the existence of Section 31 as an off-the-books shadow organization makes more sense. In order to have an effective parallel to the relationship between covert CIA agents and some random schmoe civilian who watches ST, Section 31 has to have that much distance from the crew of DS9, because the crew are mid-ranking officers in Starfleet, not random schmoe civilians. That lets Section 31 be a gauge for our own ability to stomach things that we would know are wrong, if we knew about them at all. Much like those occasional news vignettes on a fraction of what the CIA does, DS9's Section 31 says, look, stuff like this and worse is going on right now, and you don't even know about it. But you benefit from it every day. How does that make you feel? That's a big part of why Section 31 is so much more impactful as a storytelling device on DS9 compared to, say, Discovery, where it's kind of in your face. Well, that and the idea of having covert agents wearing logos that basically say "I am a covert agent" and walking around wearing those labels in public. Makes sense if they are meant to be a "secret" police like the Stasi that keeps Federation citizens in line, not so much if they are meant to focus on foreign governments and counterespionage.

[@kevinslater4126]

I remember an episode of the A-team where Hanibal says to a group of people who disagree with their existence and methods "Where would people like you be, without people like us?"

[@SciFlyGal]

Are they still planning on making a section 31 spin-off with mirror Georgiu? I never particularly like section 31 (or mirror Georgiu for that matter) so I hope not. If they didn’t already have contracts I’m guessing Michelle Yeoh just got a lot more expensive. Honestly, I really liked prime Georgiu. It’s sad we don’t get more of her.

[@HandofOmega]

I'm pretty sure here final episode was meant to sink the possiblility of such a show, at least with her in it. If they DO go ahead with it (and I've heard nothing, so I guess it's been quietly dropped) I'd hope they'd use it to somewhat redeem the org, bringing it at least a *little* more in line with the utopian ideals of the show by depicting good people who use the shadowy reputation they've earned, while not really living down to it. I know some people like the "dark n edgy" dystopia hidden within utopia thing, but almost EVERYone does that, seeing a setting genuinely living up to utopian ideals (or at least trying to) is actually the subvesion of the norm these days!

[@SciFlyGal]

Unfortunately, “dark and edgy” seem to be the types of stories that Kurtzmann likes to tell. If he wants to tell those types of stories, fine. Why try to shoehorn them into a universe where it doesn’t fit?

[@cryofpaine]

@@SciFlyGal Kurtzmann is the Snyder of the Star Trek universe. As much as i like Michelle Yeoh, even as mirror Georgiou, I'm not sure I want a Section 31 show. I'd rather see a Travelers spin-off. Doctor Who/Quantum Leap in the Star Trek universe.

[@kaitlyn__L]

@@HandofOmega I took it to mean she was getting sent back to the time of TNG/DS9 and would be involved in post Dominion War stuff. Possibly with Bashir appearing in some capacity

[@GuineaPigEveryday]

@@kaitlyn__Lthats the only saving grace of such a concept, though i got the impression she’d be Section 31 in the past or far future. Post-DS9 era sounds great, but thats only if you don’t have Kurtzman, who FOR SURE has never seen DS9 let alone would be able to portray that period with any sort of accuracy or intelligence

[@Purple_Lilith]

It's interesting that Section 31 started as an Earth agency and then shifted allegiance to the Federation.

[@caladanrude6395]

There's essentially no difference.

[@Egilhelmson]

The Federation proved to be a good method of universalizing the ideals of United Earth (as it had been of NATO), so letting non-Terran humans, perhaps even some nonhumans, under the protective umbrella of Section 31 (or whatever code name it previously had - Delta Green, U.N.C.L.E., Control, etc.)

[@TheGerkuman]

I love that the 'occasional crazy admiral with a pet project' could count for both Admiral Marcus from Into Darkness or Admiral Buenamigo from Lower Decks, two things that Steve doesn't care for.

[@richarddeese1991]

Thanks. I recall a certain speech given by a character, that goes like this: "Son, we live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. [...] I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know." [etc., etc.] Sorry, but I didn't buy it then, and I don't buy it now. Any psychopathic jackass could justify their own actions in this way. And some even do. But the ends do not justify the means. And the fact that such people & organizations exist simply means that they're waiting in the background... waiting for the excuse to take over and make this a truly hellish world. tavi.

[@renatocorvaro6924]

I watched that movie recently.

[@709mash]

"You can't handle the truth!"

[@tellesu]

DID YOU ORDER THE RED ALERT?!

[@ShaunSalter]

I've always suspected Section 31 was based on Iain M. Banks "Special Circumstances" group of the Culture's Contact Section: A Utopian society also living in a peaceful paradise and wanting to share that with less "Enlightened" types, whether the other society wants a piece of that paradise or not.

[@GrannyGamer1]

You're on very thin ice, son, pointing fingers at how other people treat stuffed animals. Steve, you're a criminally under utilized source of Star Trek appreciation, criticism, analysis and gleeful trolling. If the Universe were just, you'd be able to buy me a house! Goddamn, son, you got chops!

[@MrAndyBearJr]

I remember a quote, though the speaker eludes me at the moment, which said "It's hard to play the white knight when the other side is using every dirty trick in the book." That is an understandably apt and pragmatic stance. To ignore it is the quickest path to defeat.. They dealt with that in quite a few episodes of DS9, i.e. (In the Pale Moonlight) one of my favorites.

[@Psiros]

I saw a comment in another video on how there was a huge missed opportunity for Garak and Sloan to meet face-to-face - The Obsidian Order vs Section 31.

[@Egilhelmson]

Versus, or joined together against some other, worse, threat?

[@robertt9342]

I always liked the idea that Somehow the Federation topped the other groups with their secretive organization, and that they never knew of Section 31

[@ajanisgreat]

Man, am I happy to see you! You haven't popped up on my timeline in forever! And a 40min video! I'm so glad to be back in this wonderful place

[@mr.bojangles6111]

I think my main problem with Section 31 has always been that I feel it goes against the idea that humanity has improved itself that is core to Star Trek. I think DS9 handled Section 31 well, though - it fit in with the theme that the Federation was facing a truly existential threat and asking the question "how far would you go to preserve those ideals?" worked. Post-TNG era Trek, not so much. I think the producers of Trek gave into cynicism and "gritty realism." Section 31 fit into new Trek because "hey, humans are gonna human, even in paradise!" If I want to see the sort of humanity that produces a Section 31, I'll just turn on a 24 hour cable news station, or browse Twitter for 30 seconds, or just read about the fucked up shit the CIA has done. We *live* in a world with multiple, ACTUAL Section 31s. DS9's handling of Section 31 raised uncomfortable questions, but it still adhered with the vision of Star Trek. Star Trek media afterward did not, in my opinion.

[@alexmaverick6647]

The idea that Section 31 have their own badges in Discovery is the funniest shit. Nothing says secret organization like having your own distinctive badge that you wear proudly.

[@tomthomas5793]

"Moral ambiguity" has been a staple of Star Trek since "The Cage"; was it really ethical for Pike to leave Vina with an illusion of himself on Talos IV? There are arguments for and against; hence the ambiguity. In the second pilot, "Where No Man Has Gone Before", Kirk had to decide whether or not to KILL his best friend!

[@tyrongkojy]

Here's the thing about Ross turning a blind eye to 31. He IS doing it, but WHY is he doing it? Does he really support them? Or was the anuyrsm NOT a fake condition? Or something else? Poison? A message? He turns a blind eye... but WHY?

[@JonSonOfJoe]

First let me say, "I knew those would be good for something eventually." *Golf Clap* Very well done. Secondly, I've always viewed the Borg as just a hostile force holding people hostage so I never really thought too much of the Borg genocide controversy. And lastly, I have never really gotten too attached to Section 31, enough times through Star Trek's history, our heroes have thrown rules to the wind when the story needed them to and Section 31 always felt either too small (DS9) or too big (newer Trek) to function as needed when they pop up. I just suffer through it and hope the writers don't linger too long on it.

[@Exkhaniber]

Yeah presenting the Borg genocide as a controversy that was "almost" committed seems to be backwards. The Borg, as initially presented and directly described in TNG, was an unthinking, unremorseful, tidal wave of nightmares. Something almost like a force of nature on a galactic scale that would destroy and pillage anything could get their hands on, and horrifically and nightmarishly assimilate you which is often portrayed as a fate worse than death. And this wasn't a people following a misguided social principle they had developed as a civilization (like early Klingons, The Founders, etc), or even just a desperate people (Cardassians, and that race of people from Voyager that were all dying to a plague and were harvesting body parts to stay alive). The Borg were just a mechanical process of destruction. The controversy should be that Picard *didn't* try to genocide them. My friends and I discussed this at length - given how little the Federation know about the Borg it's still almost impossible it would have worked anyway, but the point was that it was Picard's duty to try. Not just for the Federation, but for the literal multiple billions of people in the thousands of civilizations that were overrun, destroyed, assimilated, and forced to participate in the multiple genocides of others *that the Borg do as a normal course of action*. Like, okay Picard, you didn't try to genocide the Borg, fantastic. With that newfound opportunity, the Borg went and genocided thousands of other civilizations and furthered their own power to be neigh-unstoppable. Way to go, champ.

[@kaitlyn__L]

@@Exkhaniber but Picard had been freed, and now Hugh proved it was possible even for people who weren’t still freshly assimilating. That meant the drones turned from fungible units (as the collective treated them) and were now people who could, and should, be freed from their torture. Seven of Nine, and the 50-or-so other ex-Borg they meet over the run of the show drive that point home further, then both seasons of Picard decided to press those buttons as well.

[@Exkhaniber]

@@kaitlyn__L No spoilers for Picard please, I do intend to watch when I have the opportunity but I haven't been able to yet

[@St.OlGa.]

I never noticed how every starfleet captain seems to act as a lawyer at some point 😂😂 how are they doing and know EVERYTHING

[@ScamallDorcha]

They do all go to Starfleet Academy. Maybe it is one of the mandatory classes. ¨Starfleet Legal 101¨ lol

[@Egilhelmson]

In the Military Justice system, senior officers often serve as lawyers when the Judge Advocate Corp is not available.

[@Kartissa]

@@ScamallDorcha Starfleet Academy teaches a comprehensive syllabus, since it likes its officers to be at least proficient at anything that might come up in their career. Basic legal procedure would definitely be a mandatory module for the Command track.

[@St.OlGa.]

@@Egilhelmson ha! Considering all of the 💩they have to deal with, that actually makes perfect sense

[@dipo5713]

Interesting! The best version of section 31 is portrayed in DS9. And the Sloan character was excellently played by William Sadler.

[@Thickolas]

I always thought Sloan's "Do you think any of the people you've saved cared that you lied to get your medical license?" argument was very compelling. It basically instantly flipped me into a Section 31 apologist

[@comentedonakeyboard]

Have you ever considered to work as a spokesperson for a sinister, but necessary, organisation, that totaly doesnt exist?

[@coolguyjki]

I think there's a pretty big difference between lying to save lives and being part of a covert foreign intelligence service with explicitly violent intent. To accept this narrative, you must accept the idea that it's okay and necessary for some people to decide to murder others.

[@NediSafa]

The ends never justify the means. Countless examples of Picard finding a diplomatic way to avoid bloodshed is what we love about him. Where we must always draw the line is at the Golden Rule "If it is hateful to you, do not do it to others." Like Michael Burnham said, "Our principles are ALL WE HAVE."

[@syoung2333]

Section 31 should be a footnote for the creators. This could be an excellent series showing the darker side of intergalactic politics in the Star Trek universe. Do this in a Borne Identity, 24, and Jack Reacher way, with a little Seal Team 6/Halo mix and gritty story telling where the heroes lose but come back and win. The Federation, but behind the scenes...

[@ReaverLordTonus]

To think, it took a Star Wars series to truly understand Section 31. "...I'm condemned to use the tools of my enemy to defeat them. I burn my decency for someone else's future. I burn my life to make a sunrise that I know I'll never see..."

[@raistlin3462]

The problem with that mentality, it effectively makes dropping your morals look like a noble act. From that point everything can be justified for the greater good.

[@thodan467]

@@raistlin3462 and that is a fine line to walk between my way or no way and where to draw the line

[@renatocorvaro6924]

I actually wrote an essay on this. The gist of it is... no. You can make arguments that it's "more realistic" (an argument I don't buy into), but it's certainly not what a society that actually respects the rights of individuals would have. If we're supposed to believe that the Federation is something to aspire to, a secret internal and external police force that only answers to itself is something that shouldn't be part of it.

[@ryandude3]

I wholeheartedly agree. I say that as someone that, like another commenter put it, prefers the Federation be depicted as an *aspirational goal* that shows how things can work differently than they do in the present.

[@itsOasus]

Section 31 is really an interesting concept. To me it's kind of an indictment on the US in a way because we love to say we defend freedom and then we do a bunch of shady shit. Sound familiar? Also you missed a brilliant chance to build in a Yes chant. Nice Low Ki reference though. Edit: shout-out to me seeing your point before I even got to your conclusion!

[@Egilhelmson]

Shady shit like not killing Castro before he can bring the USA and USSR into a nuclear showdown, especially before the USA learned that “None Dare Call It Treason” was nonsense, and that the Soviets had nothing like the number of nukes we thought that they had.

[@justinjackson7179]

​@@Egilhelmsonyou really are not typing that in America history. They haven't done shady shit. Like really

[@azlanadil3646]

⁠@@Egilhelmson Well to be fair, the CIA’s failure to kill Castro was not for a lack of trying. Besides, if you’d just let the Cubans have the nukes there wouldn’t have been a problem. Don’t blame Castro for something Kennedy started. Next you’ll blame the Ho Chi Minh for the Vietnam war.

[@andrewgawlik4961]

That's honestly how I saw it.

[@kaitlyn__L]

Ugh, LOVE the conclusion. That IS exactly the point, and when I see people upset about the moral purity of the Federation being compromised yet if pressed turn around and immediately defend its necessity today, which sadly is a LOT of fanbase discussions, it tells me they’ve missed the point. They’re being just like the Romulans, the Cardassians, and Odo. Though I must admit I felt like Cornwell’s line about nation building not being pretty was an attempt by those writers to morally justify its place in the setting to themselves, which never sat right with me. But those writers, who also started the “S31 show” preproduction, left halfway through the season anyway. I get the impression the current batch are more critical of such things.

[@JagoHazzard]

I wonder if Section 31 was inspired by Iain M. Banks' Culture novels. That was also set in and around a post-scarcity utopia, the titular Culture. But very early on, it's established that the Culture has a dirty tricks department known as Special Circumstances, who are fairly nebulous and secretive. They commonly recruit people and AIs to perform the sort of duties that aren't really in line with the perfect, benevolent, free-will paradise the Culture portrays itself as.

[@AaronLitz]

I really liked the introduction and use of Section 31 in DS9, but I thought that just about every use of it after that was handled very poorly and had them _extremely_ over-exposed. I understood Section 31 to be basically a conspiracy within the Federation, made up of a smallish group of Starfleet officers and associated people in positions of power, who used Article 14, Section 31 of the Starfleet Charter as an _excuse_ for their activities. They were essentially a cross between the CIA and Majestic 12 of the Federation, and you could easily imagine that there were those within Starfleet who actively opposed their actions. It would make sense to consider the whole Pegasus Affair to develop a phased cloaking device in violation of the Treaty of Algernon to have been a Section 31 operation, with Admiral Pressman as a Starfleet Officer who was a member of the Section 31 conspiracy. Starfleet JAG corps seemed to want to dig a _lot_ deeper into the whole affair but was blocked by elements within Starfleet Intelligence, which would indicate that at least members of the JAG corps were opposed to Section 31. That way it could be acknowledged that, yes, the Federation wasn't perfect ND there were dirty elements like Section 31 within the Federation and Starfleet that compromised the principles of the Federation, but it was a smallish, rogue conspiracy of certain powerful individuals within the Federation, but who were opposed by many who knew of their existence, showing that while Starfleet and the Federation _weren't perfect,_ the majority of Starfleet Officers were still good and decent people who believed in the Federation's ideals and were vehemently opposed to such things. Instead, they chose to go the less idealistic, supposedly more "realistic," and in my opinion much less _interesting_ route of portraying Section 31 as being an actual covert but official branch of Starfleet itself, making it an indictment of the Federation as a whole and revealing that everything we _thought_ we knew about the ideals of the Federation and Starfleet were actually nothing but a hypocritical pile of trash and lies, an idea that pisses me off.

[@jasontodd9]

Came here to say pretty much exactly this. The Section 31 concept worked better on DS9 where it was pretty obviously an unsanctioned, fully autonomous, and decentralized organization. They also didn't have stupid fucking badges, which make about as much sense for a supposedly secret organization as having a headquarters somewhere with a big ass "Section 31" sign. Although, I guess by the time Kurtzman and colleagues decided they should have badges, they weren't really much of any kind of secret. BTW, I don't think Kurtzman and colleagues even thought about the possibility that making section 31 and official part of Starfleet renders, as you say "the ideals of the Federation and Starfleet...nothing but a hypocritical pile of trash and lies..." I think they just thought it was some cool as shit, and they probably didn't fully understand it as presented in DS9 and Enterprise.

[@AaronLitz]

@@jasontodd9 Oh, I can pretty much _guarantee_ that they never gave any thought as to the ideological implications of Section 31 being an official branch of Starfleet, and instead they were only thinking "ultra-cool Starfleet black ops with shiny black badges!" Section 31 is _not_ just Starfleet Intelligence, which I'm pretty sure is exactly what they believed.

[@SWalkerTTU]

@@AaronLitz It would’ve made more sense for Section 31 to be a separate agency under the Federation from Starfleet, which would also have its own intelligence branch (like CIA vs. DIA).

[@TheLittleMako]

I haven't seen anything to confirm it, but I'm convinced that Section 31 was the inspiration for Cerberus in Mass Effect. Maybe as just a reference in ME1, where they were the baddies of a one-off mission, and then being retcon-expanded out into something almost like the TOS/DSC version of section 31 in ME2 and 3.

[@Phlebas]

I'm not sure about being a direct inspiration (ME2 came out before Discovery, so the Mass Effect franchise beat Star Trek to making their shady secret organization into an overarching antagonist), but it is an interesting parallel regardless. For Star Trek, I think the change in Section 31's depiction mostly came from what was happening in the real world. 9/11 happened, the US government got paranoid, and organizations like the CIA and NSA were under a bit more scrutiny from the public for what seemed like overreach (I'd argue they were overreaching long before that, but oh well). So Section 31 became more of a stand-in for the CIA/NSA with a similar relation to the Federation as those organizations have to the US government. For Mass Effect 2, I think it was more of a case of "the plot requires Shepherd to work outside of Council space so we need some alternate faction for Shepherd to align themself with". And rather than introduce an entirely new faction, they just picked one that was already established. As much as I love the games, I really feel like each game was written with no inkling about the next game's plot beyond getting from "the Reapers are coming" to "the Reapers are here".

[@TheLittleMako]

@@Phlebas You're probably right about it being a just a parallel vs a reference, but I could still see someone at bioware going "well I need to fill out another prefab base location with a quest plot, let's make it a little nod to star trek" just like the rachni have shades of Alien.

[@SheeplessNW6]

For a similar deal elsewhere in SF, see "Special Circumstances" in Iain M. Banks's Culture universe.

[@arcady0]

4:00 - "For that paradise to endure not everyone can be a saint" - that's the logic of the cold war and whether or not its true (it's still an open debate), it seems an ill fit to Star Trek which makes Section 31's overuse problematic in modern trek. Section 31 was an interesting gimmick when using a plotline of The Federation are mostly good guys but there are some questions. But it's become "there are mostly questions but some people are good and working against the corruption of Section 31". What was meant as the 'side villain inside the ideal' has become 'the ideal trying to break from the villain'. They've become too prevalent. It was a gimmick that has outlived its usefullness.

[@briancorrigan5350]

And everyone decrying the situation at our Southern border seems to completely forget that we sowed the seeds of unrest throughout central and South America in our surreptitious fight against the commies, propping up willing dictators provided they pledged allegiance. But we turned a blind eye to how they treated their own citizens. Same thing with the Shah, and in a generation it had a rebound effect. If you want to quash it right now, criminalize hiring them. Not fines, but jail time for execs who turn the blind eye to hiring immigrant children (see recent NY Times exclusive- its happening nation wide, not just in the meat packing industry- looking at you Ben & Jerry's). So why won't the senate do it? Hmm, I wonder who lobbies$$ them?

[@HaroldElbowmanIV]

When we talk about 31 as the CIA, we'd have to address that old chestnut about the agency being the president's personal (foreign) policy enforcers, and, keep in mind that Starfleet isn't the Federation.

[@metalheadnick555]

One of my favorite Star Trek theories that almost makes sense is that Sisko is actually a part of Section 31. The way he acts much of the time does little to prove this idea wrong....

[@gameoverinsertcointocontin8102]

I think Section 31 is an interesting idea. I also liked how they briefly appeared in Enterprise and came up with a plan to neuter the Klingon Empire for a while at least. At the same time the STD concept of them is just awful. Black com badges, seriously? Why not right with an integrated Section 31 code wheel?

[@sanchellewellyn3478]

Section 31 = Bureau 13.* Change my mind. *Tabletop role-playing game about a secret organization protecting us from the "supernatural." Also referenced accidentally on Babylon V.

[@Freesorin837]

Personally I think the question we should ask is, “could the Federation even exist at all without Section 31?” Also, while I get what you mean about how much more impactful S31 being openly if quietly acknowledged by Starfleet is, I do think it’s presentation in DS9 was superior and far more satisfying.

[@KENOMAN1969]

When the Founders were dying and it was shown Section 31 attempted genocide my response was, "Yep sounds about right for them." Sisko was disgusted when he found out that Federation citizens would do that but it proved a point Quark made. When humans, even in an idyllic setting, get stripped down to survival circumstances with no comforts and life or death circumstances some of us will loose all nobility and conscience.

[@rubaiyat300]

No. They are cool to impressionable adolescents like DKR was to Batman fans, but their observed track record is one of failure. Almost as if having an organization that thinks it is above oversight and regulation eventually and inevitably leads to disaster. And thus their ends do not justify their means. Just look at how much their plant in the Romulan Senate achieved. No help at all when Shinzon made his move.

[@camortie]

I always felt that it was section 31 that allowed Magnus and Erin Hansson to the learn about the existence of the Borg, mostly due to their reputation, and thus they where the ones responsible for the entire family being assimilated.

[@DoIGetTube]

Then you find the already illegal Section Thirty-One (illegal because its supposed authorization was buried in Star Fleet's eventual charter, whose chapters and articles are NOT allowed to have ANY more than THIRTY sections each) GUILTY of SUBORNATION of CONTACT with ANYWHERE in the Delta Quadrant, which is DEATH under Star Fleet's revised General Order 7!

[@BookmansBlues]

It's not an easy yes or no kind of thing, yeah, it says a lot about us, as a society, but the unfortunate truth is, is that the world does not play by the rules in which it is supposed to under conventional accepted morality. Well back before Disco, (which I worked on as a modeler and designer) I had started to write a treatment, where during the Dominion War, a certain group of people, not just S31, but a cabal of Federation Citizens, Starfleet, etc, had left Federation Space, and found a section of space where there was a plentiful source of Di lithium, so that they could continue to fuel the Federation War Effort in the face of losses to the Dominion. The mining of the Di lithium was causing harmful conditions to the Native people, who, were too primitive to fight back. This is one of those situations where it was believed that the ends, justify the means, because they literally saved the Federation, and it's allies by supplying Di Lithium to keep them fighting. Without it, the Federation would have fallen. Where my story picked up was some years after the war, when it starts to become apparent, that those people were still out there, having carved out their own little empire, using less advanced versions of Data, as a work force and military, though instead of looking like him, they did not have skin, but instead could mimic anyone via hologram projectors, and had started raiding and stealing any ships that had the misfortune of getting too close to their territory, which a Federation ship eventually did, got hijacked, and the story follows crewmembers fresh out of the academy as part of a small group of ships sent out there to investigate the disappearance, and also get hijacked, scattering survivors throughout that star system In terms of the morality of that situation, the idea was the follow each of the three friends, separated by the destruction of their ship in hostile territory, exploring the different opinions of that situation, the morality of the initial cause, and the fact, that despite the war being over, the continuance of the operation in spite no longer needing it, but because it had remained secret, and apart from anyone in the federation, and their allies, was able to continue until things started to spiral out of control, and the people involved loosing the plot so to speak. As an aside, I had wanted to make that rich guy from the TNG episode "The Neutral Zone" as the central causal figure who got the thing going, because him, not being brought up in the Federation, but instead, from an earlier time, he had managed to put together that secret cabal of people, as he was an expert manipulator, and schemer. This was also going to be where Spock's Ship from ST:2009 came from, at least the design, because the idea, was that they would be harvesting Di Lithium as a gas from inside a Planetary Nebula, where normal Federation Ships could only move at sub light speeds due to the chemical nature of the cloud affecting the ship's deflector arrays.

[@christopherswindells1237]

STEVE! This was a great one! Intelligent, well thought out, FUNNY AF! And most importantly, comes off as generating more questions, as it should. I like that you mention, "It's not about a fictional universe. The questions raised concerning S31 are about us, here and now!" Because it's true. Each iteration of Trek explores the future through the eyes of the present. Lots of people are uncomfortable with the current Trek. Because lots of people are uncomfortable with the current day. This is hardly surprising - so many concepts, and ideas are upended, and dark closets are being thrown wide open. Also, on the back of an earlier comment, your golden gleeful trolling moments are AMAZING. Please, keep them coming! "But Gene's VISION...." wah! CLASSIC!!! Thank you!!!!

[@UltimateSpinDash]

My problem with post-DS9 stories involving Section 31 is how it constantly usurps the role of what should be Starfleet Intelligence. Now, there is certainly overlap between those two organizations (with S31 likely recruiting many of it's members from Starfleet Intelligence and Starfleet Security), but I always considered S31 to be something that is specifically not a Starfleet organizaton, but one that claims that role for itself. The black badges seem like something that would be used to officially denote Starfleet Intelligence personnel (not that that is a wise thing to do), instead it's constantly portrayed as an S31 only thing. I do like the idea that S31 are the kind of people who gather all the dangerous techs discovered by the main cast (like Genesis, the Phase cloak, Information on the Blight) to be studied further, and potentially used when the situation seems otherwise hopeless. They claim to do the wrong things for the right reasons, but since they are not beholden to anyone but themselves, it's very existence flies in the face of all principles the Federation it seeks to protect upholds.

[@borgstod]

Machiavelli stated that those who trusted moral virtue often came to grief in the pursuit of power. That's the reality of political engagement, so Section 31 is necessary for the Federation's survival against competing species groups and internal seditionists. You have to get your hands dirty in a nasty, amoral universe.

[@twig8523]

Absolute banger of a video from start to finish. Im with you on 'most every point... I even bring up that same Homer Simpson quote "If I don't see it, it's not illegal!" frequently.

[@badmaninc.536]

The impression I took away from the reorganization and more transparency of section 31 is this… To that point there was only section 31. That’s it. section 31 WAS Starfleet Intelligence. Only it was not the SI we would come to “know” in things like series that came before. The reorganization was done and effectively splitting the clandestine black ops and dubious legality section into what we were introduced to as Section 31, and the rest, the “more benign” of the reorganized original section 31 got rebranded as what we came to know as Starfleet Intelligence. Only one of those two organizations was OFFICIALLY allowed to exist. TLDR: S31=SI until they are reorganized and made more transparent at which point S31 and SI split and only SI continues to officially exist.

[@abigfavor]

The Federation doesn't need section 31 because it has it's own above board counter intelligence. The point of section 31 being unnecessary makes it better from a writing perspective, you don't need it but awful people will it into existence. The Talshiar and The Obsidian Order being official organizations makes Section 31 more devious by comparison

[@jaymikevillanueva1212]

I think there is a role for a Section 31 in the Federation. I see Section 31 as the unseen guardian of the gates and they are the boogeymen against any enemy faction or individual who wish to destroy the Federation and the hard fought peace and stability that was paid in blood. Section 31 has to operate in the shadows so it can create technologies leaps and bounds more advanced than what Starfleet has to offer while not bound by red tape in order to fulfill its duty. Their silent work is a thankless task of making sure every citizen of the Federation can wake up another day of peace and Starfleet finest can go around thinking they are saviors of the free quadrants. That's what makes Section 31 vastly different from the Romulan Tal Shiar and the Cardassian Obsidian Order. They're protectors, not oppressors.

[@jjtheherald008]

Question: Where did you those cute little ships on your desk? Defiant, DS9, Galaxy and Sovereign class.

[@beyondu77]

Very cool episode. Thanks for your time and hard work Steve.

[@titus2120]

I really do appreciate your almost comically, matter of fact approach to laying out the situation. Well done, sir.

[@Foe4Life]

I'm all on board with the concept of Section 31 in Star Trek. It's a very plausible response to threats by factions who go beyond the rules. I just feel that Section 31 should have been placed back into the black hole it came from after DS9. Seeing Section 31 in different prequel series kind of lets the air out of the ballon for me. Now, I am over the idea.

[@deaks25]

My head canon for Section 31 is that it started out as a specialised intelligence-gathering team and it's name came from the area of a building, it then grew to encompass special forces (The MACO's for example), became a bit more clandestine as politicians want to be able to deny they're responsible for whatever the special forces of an intelligence arm get up to... and then just kept growing in size and breadth of scope into things like weapons development which would include things like the development of the Defiant class because Starfleet doesn't build warships, but Section 31 isn't Starfleet (And they're only developing an 'escort' ship, honest guv'), and is also the mechanism for the negotiation to lease a Romulan cloak for the Defiant itself. For DS9, I like the idea that Sloane isn't actually a big-shot, at best he's just a senior operative doing day-to-day Section-31-stuff and the actual decision makers are still murky and unknown. I'm always brought back to the reasoning given by the Operative in Serenity; he's trying to help build a paradise, but not for himself, because he's knowingly done terrible things because "they must be done." He's not a typical fanatic, or moustache-twizzling villain, in fact his reasoning has a twisted logic to it all, but he's immoral all the same. If used right, that can make for a very compelling antagonist. Sometimes I think Section 31 is a bit over-used (A bit like Mirror-universe and Holo-deck tropes) but when done right, it adds a more realistic dimension to Starfleet in a universe with Klingons and Romulans.

[@JDEhlert]

It's been my headcanon that, after what happened with Section 31 on the Enterprise, when Archer became President, he essentially dragged Section 31 into Starfleet Intelligence to make it as above board as possible. And it worked until the Klingon War came out of nowhere, and shocked a lot of people and they did the stupid thing that started Control's AI system heading toward pre-sentiency until it found out about the uber-probe that downloaded to Discovery. After that, it slowly slipped back into the shadows.

[@bcwest619]

Section 31 and the Mirror Universe were brilliant creations for the one episode stories they originally showed up in. Had they let them both go after that, I'd think back fondly of those episodes. But instead they became boring, stupid, almost comedic (sometimes openly comedic) tropes that got overused.

[@chrstwrg]

I think another question should be,"Can you survive in a hostile world galaxy *fill in the blank* without a Section 31?"

[@cjjonez]

back in 1994, I and a friend up late had a conversation about who would win a fight between Batman and Darth Vader. Also, Battlestar Galactica universe vs Star Wars universe. then I leaned in on star trek, where there was plot holes so big then we got into Intel agencies. I laid out a background for section 31 he tweeked it years later, and it shows up as a plot device. even down to the uniform. was glad his refinement was a plus. we saw it. section 31 needed to make that universe make sense. I even added a col flag element from mash.

[@kylanlord2946]

I honestly never thought about it in the view of the cold War mentality as in the writers exercising different avenues of solving or exploring modern problems mixed with foreshadowing with home front exploring the concept of 'security' and its modern parallels

[@Jimir]

There's another possibility as well: Section 31 started out as part of Star Fleet/UFP, like the CIA, but eventually, as the Federation became more mature and more "Utopia"esk, then it gets scaled back, to the point it's almost forgotten about, or even detached or abandoned. But the ones in Section 31 would be the "True Believers" that would keep the "mission" going. And we've seen a few "Ture Believers" in the series before, this one would just be attached to the concept of the federation itself rather than, say, the greater good.

[@dominickfosco6374]

My feeling is that Section 31 should not be an organization. It should be the internal code name for Federation intelligence agents that have gone rogue but keep Federation goals. Further, it could be a design in the training of fed intelligence agents so that if an agent breaks this is the overwhelming direction they fall. (Interestingly, all done by strictly adhering to the ideals of the federation and letting those rules of engagement hamstring the agents, some of who break and go rogue). Then the Fed can still use these rogue agents by feeding key intel on situations the fed intelligence can't handle inside the rules. With this design, Section 31 agents become unstoppable by organizations such as the Obsidian Order or Tal-Shiar as there is no organization to destroy, and it is comprised of the most dangerous weapons possible, rogue agents.

[@stevenserna910]

That is kinda what I was thinking Dominic. The CIA but not actually affiliated with the government nor the military; yet each agent has the authorization and capability to procure whatever they need from official sources. intelligence, ordinance, personnel, transport. But no one really actually "reports" to anyone else as long as a mission/objective gets "completed". In other words, Section 31 is more political, than the Federation, or Starfleet combined. Its' Federation MiB.

[@vincentbrooker3062]

I’m sure that section 31 has always been around. I seem to remember it in books in the eighties. Certainly there was a group that wore black uniforms that got up to the same sort of things that Sloane did.

[@lessonslearned2569]

I have to agree that I am not a fan of Sec. 31. Used well enough in DS9 (as in sparingly) but haven't found it as compelling in other Trek series. Worse, it seems to be a go to explanation (in fandom at least) for any inconsistencies within Trek storylines. Why do we have so many planets with what appear to be just humans? Sec. 31. Discrepancies between warp factors in TOS and TNG? Sec. 31. Why it took Riker nearly a decade to get his own command? Sec. 31. You get the picture. Oh and one more thing, Steve, don't call me Shirley.

[@benjaminscott8198]

🤣 when you asked if Ira Steven Behr jumped off a bridge would you?, my immediate thought was if I was attached to the bridge with a bungee cord. I laughed heartily when you said it as well. I enjoyed the addition of Section 31 to DS9. That's probably more to do with Sloan and William Sadler playing that character. However later series featuring Section 31 weren't my favorite. That's more to do with the characters than the group. TNG era Trek was way too polished and Utopian for my tastes. That's why I liked DS9 and Picard, the Federation was less polished and more realistic. I used to say that Star Trek is our idealistic, hopeful vision of the future, and Star Wars was more likely the reality.

[@anwarsentinel1752]

From what I understand "section 31" is technically a rogue organisation. It's not officially sanctioned by the UFP. For all we know the UFP does have a formal intelligence black ops agency. This is why we need a ds9 night type series as it opens up avenues to learn about UFP lore.

[@kaidenshepard8446]

Isn't is Starfleet that has a Section 31 (as in the article 14 section 31 of the Starfleet Charter) not the Federation, as both are seperate entities, Starfleet being the exploration and defence organisation of the Federation

[@comentedonakeyboard]

In an odd way Section 31 not just fits into Genes vision, but is actualy necessary. Federation idealism only works with some deus ex machina ensuring that Federation never has to own the consequences of this idealism. And after all, Gene portrait all paradises in ToS as false paradises.

[@keith6706]

The answer for next month is yes, and no. "The Ones Who Walk from Omelas" isn't a story in the sense of some kind of plot, it's a description of a setting that provides a moral question. Nothing actually happens within it. So there's no story for SNW to have ripped off, unlike, say, how "Arena" ripped off Brown's own story of the same name, or that "Balance of Terror" was simply the film "The Enemy Below" with aliens instead of Germans. So while the _premise_ was a ripoff of the original story, the _plot_ was not.

[@superdimensionfoto]

My favorite Section 31 episode is the one where Dr. Bashir wakes up and finds Sloan doing naked Tai-Chi in his quarters.

[@XynthoanXV2]

If no one has said it before then let me be the first, the Ferengi Commerce Alliance is Ferenginar's own spy network like the Obsidian Order and Section 31. How else does Brunt stay on top of so many Ferengi dealings with Quark?

[@SeanTBarrett]

Fun fact: "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" borrows a number of plot ideas (particularly the big plot twist) from the John Le Carre novel "The Spy Who Came In From the Cold" (which is part of the same fictional universe as "Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy"). I'm not sure if it's meant as homage or what; it comes across to me a little as "too lazy to come up with their own ideas", but not enough to really hurt the epside.

[@Dylan_Archbold]

I'm not a huge fan of Section 31, so I'm not really up to date on all their lore, but aside from being a rogue organization with no over-site, is it ever fully explained why Starfleet Intelligence isn't up to the task of protecting the Federation from espionage and the like? I seem to remember their intel being rather good during the Dominion War. I mean, I would assume any galactic government would need to undertake BlackOps in order to do illegal things necessary for the security of the state (assassinating a Senator bent on starting a war with the Federation and helping to install a peaceful replacement, for instance), but does Starfleet Intelligence not do that? Are Starfleet's spies too goody-goody to be spies? I mean, it's not like we've never seen the Federation Council approve of blatantly illegal and unethical actions for the perceived greater good before. (See: the forced relocation of the Ba'ku in Star Trek: Insurrection.) I'm not saying that makes Section 31 justified, because it certainly doesn't. Any organization with no one to rein them in sounds like a recipe for complete disaster and abuse of power, which I'm not okay with. So, yeah...what's up with Starfleet Intelligence?

[@shanenolan5625]

You could make the same argument for the American government. Army intelligence, naval intelligence, cental intelligence, national security agency. ( 10 times bigger than cia ) actually 17 different agency's. The British. Have Army and naval intelligence, but also. ( military intelligence section 5 , ) and during ww2 felt the need to establish section 6 . Plus special operations executive. The secret security service ( m15 ) and the secret intelligence service ( m16 ) James bond was Royal navy , a carrier pilot ( his ark Royal) then navy intelligence, then mi6 . On paper, he is commander bond ( Royal navy). Well, on paper, he is retired Royal navy, officially he works as a sales executive for ( Universal Exports a shipping company) which is a front for MI6 . . Soe was merged into mi6 and they have gchq. ( general communications headquarters) British version of nsa. Which was originally part of m16 . ( enigma national codes, etc ) . Star fleet intelligence has limitations. It can do black operations or clandestine work .

[@chaoslord8918]

Just for fun, I like to imagine that either Sloan is crazy, and Section 31 is a figment of his imagination, or Bashir is crazy, and Sloan is a figment of his imagination.