Star Trek: 10 Things You Didn't Know About Section 31

[@chriscma1]

Years ago, a poster queried who was the head of Section 31. Many were suggested, but, a name put forward as a joke quickly gained traction within the community and made sense. Who was in a place to identify and recruit future members of the organization? The most unexpected and free of suspicion person hiding in plain sight. Who is this hidden director? The groundskeeper at Starfleet Academy: Boothby. An agent working from a place where Starfleet's future best and brightest could be observed.

[@generalilbis]

Makes one wonder if Species 8472 pegged onto Boothby's being S31 head honcho, and that's why the leader of the infiltration group pretending to be Starfleet Academy was Ray Walston's Boothby 😅

[@andrewbenbow9257]

He paid special attention to Picard, but realized he was too ethical to be involved in the more, shall we say, subversive elements of the organization. He was still cultivated to be the forward facing image of Starfleet, creating a sense of command through diplomacy and trust.... Dih duh duh!

[@LordLOC]

Wait, that was just a rumor on an internet board or whatever? I thought most people just assumed Boothby was the head of Section 31, or at the very least the head recruiter. It seems so obvious he was in the perfect position to find new recruits, both people who would be ruthless in making sure S31 did what it had to do and people who would still question things and use their better judgement in the end.

[@chriscma1]

@@LordLOC With that in mind, I wonder if Nick Locarno wound up as an agent? 😃

[@Awestefeld6612]

If someone posted with the name reflecting Section 32 was real, we better watch out if you criticize it.

[@cyscott2714]

Section 31 did seem in line with Gene's vision for TNG. The Borg story line in TNG was designed to show that the Federation was arrogant because they had a long span of peace which fooled them into thinking they finally figured out how to make a utopia. Section 31 ensured Federation peace, by any means.

[@TangomanX2008]

I'm not following. Humanity becoming arrogant and unprepared due to its achievement of an utopia society doesn't address all the ways Section 31 conflicts with the notion of an elightened society. The philosophical questions that Section 31 is whether it is sometimes necessary to set all morality aside and if all options are on the table, including genocide, corruption, murder, for a greater good, and whether or not it is necessary to have an institution with people that acts in such a manner so that others can continue to have their hands, consciences, and enlightened moral codes clean. The essence of Star Trek is a notion that a morally society is possible and that problems like war, poverty, oppeession, etc. (at least among humans and other Starfleet member societies) are solved problems. The idea of Section 31 introduces, at best, a type Machiavellianism as something necessary and obligatory for any species or culture that wants to make it in the universe.

[@user-zh4vo1kw1z]

'Peace, by any means' sounds like a contradictio in terminis

[@Rangerone13]

The borg were not a Roddenberry idea, they were invented by Maurice Hurley and later changed to what we know today by Michael Piller in season 3.

[@manticore4952]

One of the reasons I think the admirals in the show are evil is because after they have been captain for a long time they realise the utopia is unrealistic, and you must do whatever it takes to take care of your own even if that means deceiving them into believing a utopia exists.

[@TangomanX2008]

@@user-zh4vo1kw1z Where exactly is the contadiction?

[@Craxin01]

The fact that William Sadler isn't more well known is a terrible shame. He's a very solid actor able to play everything from silly to serious and everything in between.

[@reesetorwad8346]

He also plays the Securitron that digs you up at the beginning of Fallout: New Vegas. "Well, howdy there, pardner!"

[@Craxin01]

@@reesetorwad8346 Yep! Played a lot of great characters over the years.

[@davidgrisez]

Since most of Star Trek Deep Space nine was done after the death of Gene Roddenberry, the writers of Star Trek were able write a much darker version of Star Trek that included the Dominion War and Section 31. This showed that the Federation was not squeaky clean, but had a lot in common with the Romulans and the Cardassians .

[@joepatbob]

it was some of the worst trek

[@Stinkehund]

DS9 is still easily in the top 3 of all Trek shows.

[@willpower8061]

Dark indeed and now no longer the hopeful concept people admire. That's why its in the trash now.

[@Pedgo1986]

@@willpower8061 It was darker but still retained it utopistic charm nevertheless i have no no problem with inserting little bit of realism because there is always some dirty job that needs to be done and enemy don't care about your morals and ethics.

[@willpower8061]

@@Pedgo1986 If they wanna do something darker, there's the Orion syndicate. It's a gold mine for untold gritty tales and they could use the current cop show formats. Additionally, it wouldn't contradict anything since it's on the side.

[@ruediix]

Believe me, I used to speed walk everywhere when I was younger. It seemed to be one of the things many people found most off-putting about me. (Especially since I would speed walk at paces other people ran.) It makes you seem unapproachable and some people even find it rude.

[@pookhahare]

Section 31 could been part of Enterprise Incident. Where Kirk and Spock steal a cloaking device . The orders supposedly came from Federation but even since it showed up in DS9 felt like 31 could be retrofitted to be responsible. And yes add Pegasus to their door step

[@danpattyboucher523]

And the brainwashing game. It makes more sense that was a Section 31 operation because they saw Picard's Enterprise ethics as an ongoing threat to their clandestine operations. What better way to discredit that threat?

[@Rangerone13]

I've always thought Pegasus could be a section 31 opp, and the admiral the scapegoat if needed

[@edwardrhoades6957]

Gorkon's assassination was also a Section 31 op

[@incognit01233]

Well, Uhura was Section 31 the entire time so..

[@carlosalbertoalonso418]

@@incognit01233 WTF?

[@Blasted2Oblivion]

One thing I will say, Daystrom Station looked almost exactly how my space stations in Space Engineers looked. A massive solar array with a relatively small station.

[@BrianD0313]

makes sense. you'd need a lot of solar arrays to be able to keep the batteries charged in order to operate a starbase. Of course in the Star Trek world you'd probably expect the Daystrom Station to have a power plant.

[@tiloluedecke1793]

​@@BrianD0313 tbf it makes sense for a secret operating organisation to have an independent power source which you don't have to refill once in a while to minimise the traffic tonthat station

[@brentbarr498]

4:38 LOLOL I see what you did there Seán you cheeky devil! ;)

[@athow123]

I think that section 31 was involved in the Pegasus incident with admiral pressman

[@myrkvith9]

Kudos for referencing B5--especially considering that Walter Koenig's character, Albert Bester, completely overcame my association of the actor with TOS's Chekhov. Koenig is brilliant in B5.

[@danielcostanza1029]

Yes. I also remember the first time I seen that episode I even made a psi ops space model I thought that shift looks so cool all black with just the Omega crest.

[@Wolfgang-Schnaufer]

"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Section 31. One of the most believable things in all of Star Trek.

[@pwnmeisterage]

It's the same thing in our world. Some people sleep peacefully in pleasant, paradise places. Because soldiers are doing violence on their behalf in other places.

[@vic5015]

No surprise that they'd be fans of Hobbes' Leviathan, which is where that quote comes from. To call Thomas Hobbes deeply cynical about human nature is an understatement.

[@dicksonfranssen]

"You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall". Yes we do.

[@robinhodson9890]

This sounds like my life; not the peaceful sleeping part, although I wouldn't describe myself as "rough".

[@robinhodson9890]

Not necessarily troops: Fighting for freedom, doesn't mean physical fighting literally.

[@BrianD0313]

I thought Section 31 was a good addition to the franchise. It would be silly if an organization as vast as the Federation didn't have a covert agency. I also like the moral implications because it gets people discussing whether or not Section 31 were justified in their actions (just like we question Sisko's actions in "A Pale Moonlight"). DS9 also helped make Star Trek feel more real by breaking this silly Utopian idea.

[@HeadlessChickenTO]

Starfleet does have their own intelligence division. We hear their reports all the time, typically being inaccurate.

[@XSilver_WaterX]

If you're going to be a hypocrite, have some manifestation of the awful truth become the thing you deny. That's Star Trek for you. Sci-Fi of the "The Culture" without the drugs and "free-love" nature.

[@contrafax]

Or to put it another way, "Which is the best Star Trek and why is it DS9?"

[@rickjohnston2667]

Look at Mission Impossible, both the original series and the Tom Cruise reboot movies. The Federation had to have an organization like that to survive, or else be infiltrated and conquerer by the Romulans, Klingons, Cardassians or others.

[@rickjohnston2667]

In the TOS episode "The Enterprise Incident," I suspect that it was Section 31that actually sent Kirk & Spock on their mission to steal a Romulan cloaking device.

[@ThomasFishwick]

I loved Section 31 during DS9 and it was a nice easter egg (as it was never confirmed to be Section 31, just heavily hinted at) during the last season of Enterprise. There is a lot of stuff out there in the Expanded media, including the Kirk Cabal, a group of Starfleet captains and high ranking officers "in the know" of Section 31 that active work against it, that I also found interesting. Sadly Discovery, Lower Decks, Picard and Strange New Worlds all seem to forgotten the Clandestine idea. Resulting in this "thing" we have now where everyone another brother seems to know about section 31 and its actions. I suspect the way out of this is for Section 31 to officially disband and then continue in secret. A true rogue faction hidden within Starfleet.

[@NicRankin]

I like to think that after the Discovery/Control incident, Section 31 was transferred from Starfleet to the United Federation of Planets. This would explain why S31 was well known during the mid 23rd century but barely known/rumoured by the mid 24th century. Being referred to as part of Starfleet Intelligence in the 24th century is part of the subterfuge and clandestine nature of the organisation. It would shield Starfleet itself from direct criticism from S31's activities.

[@mawkernewek]

Presumably it was officially shut down at some point in the 23rd century, but continued to operate in a more deeply covert form.

[@StephenLeGresley]

Nice shout out to Babylon 5. It's even more twisted that Psi-Corps version of section 31 had an initiation ritual where you had to kill a non-telepath to prove your loyalty as poor Byron found out and lucky Lyta found out about early on and quit as a result. Also, the sinister Mr. Bester brought to life by the insanely talented Walter Koenig was obsessed with death and the possibilities of using preprogrammed corpses as agents for clan destine plots. Lyta even states how Bester's little group is very much feared even among other Psi-Cops seen as a looming spectre of sorts.

[@ashedarke]

Phew, it passed the test. I edited this video and I've never seen B5 before. So I had a very intense day trying to learn all this stuff to make sure no one who knew the show would look at it and think we didn't have a clue 😂

[@Gaderath2781]

@@ashedarke Well given DS9 would not exist without Babylon 5; not surprised there are parallels. They had JMS's bible for month; decided not to take on B5 and "magically" came up with DS9. JMS sued and they settled. I love both Shows; but I think B5 givens a better view of a future earth. Especially the whole President Clark story arc- the Nightwatch, control of the media, political zealots who will go along with the narrative and those who stood by and did nothing. I would recommend the show, season 1 is rough; but the main parts of the long form story start appearing in "Signs and portents". Give it a watch, you will not regret it

[@ashedarke]

@@Gaderath2781 well I watched a couple of episodes to ground myself with things and who people were but then I had to get intro extracting what I wanted and actually get some work done 😂 but I was getting sucked into the bits I saw. It's definitely something I want to give a go 👍

[@StephenLeGresley]

​@@Gaderath2781 There are so many similarities between the two shows. Bajorins and Cardassians = Narns and Centauri Sisko = Sinclair/Sheridan Kira = Ivonova Etc

[@StephenLeGresley]

@@ashedarke You should, it's a brilliant show that explores religion, society, politics, meaning has such a rich a complex set of characters. It's well worth a shot and I hope the reboot does happen. You guys should do a video on the similarities between B5 and DS9.,

[@examinerian]

Whoa - only 10 things...? That's got to be the least secretive secret service in existence. Or... That's just the 10 things they WANT you to believe you didn't know.

[@brentsvideojournal6161]

I think they will find ten more things we don't know about section 31 in the future

[@JohnnyWednesday]

Section 31 are just a front for a group so secret that even the members don't know it exists

[@examinerian]

@@JohnnyWednesday Whu-uuut? Does that mean...? Wait, there are things I'm sure I don't know exist - am I a member...?! Well, that explains a lot. 🤔🤔

[@danpattyboucher523]

It's fun to think Picard's Enterprise D kept getting into trouble because Section 31 was operating against it. The Pegasus incident, the brainwashing game, the Romulan brainwashing Geordi with his visor, there's a rich background there.

[@artfulgamer91]

DS9 is my favorite, I may have started with TNG, DS9 shown that it wasn't perfect in the utopia, but yet the people had to fight to keep that idea alive, it stands true for a lot of what's happening in the world even now.

[@BobbyCoolBreeze]

Captain Sisko put aside his morals and ethics to the side in a certain episode during the dominion war. He was able to live with it so he should be able to live with the existence of Section 31

[@KalijahAnderson]

I played a character in my friends Star Trek Table Top Role Playing Game that was Section 31. One of the most fun characters I've ever played.

[@louisbrantmeyer8786]

A lot of the time, I know everything these videos are going to tell me…and I also know that I know it all…but how elegantly you articulate and present and script and edit the footage to express this information is just…*chef’s kiss*

[@Nitro_Joe]

DS9 is just grown up Star Trek! I’m happy that a new generation of fans have the chance to see the show! P.S. Don’t sleep on Enterprise! I just got cut right in the middle of it’s stride.

[@twocvbloke]

I always thought it was an interesting twist, because no matter how peachy a nation seems, there's always the underbelly that operates outside of the law to "get things done", even if it leaves an unpleasant taste in our mouths, as Spock put it, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...

[@warrenreid6109]

It would be great that if somehow Malcolm Reed could make an appearance in the section 31 movie.

[@fredboldman6818]

"And other odds and ends"? That's the understatement of the 22nd, 23rd, 24th, or 25th century, Sean! 😂

[@georgesulea]

Also, just for reference, "Bureau 13" is also a great paranormal RPG from Tri Tac Games, been around for years.

[@subrosa.photography]

apparently they're the reason bureau 13 was only mentioned one time in B5 😂

[@chryssmetzler2098]

The Corps Is Father, the Corps Is Mother.

[@mkdrivingzone]

I may need to go and watch B5 all over again.

[@JohnnyWednesday]

Somewhere on Beta Colony there is an institution. In one room of the institution there is a man who spends his days and nights screaming at things that only he can see. Things we planted in his mind.

[@Culdcepter]

4:37 If anyone had a horga'hn it'd be Bashir 🤣

[@grumpus_hominidae]

Awesome behind-the-scenes knowledge, Seán. Thanks!

[@MediocrMrFox]

4:38 Bashir is seeking Jamaharon I see

[@mikeneil798]

My boy Captain Sisko has done more under handed shit in protecting the Alpha Quadrant to the point that Section 31 would ask him for suggestions. Sisko would sit down with the Mafia to get assistance in defense of the Federation.

[@Blasted2Oblivion]

He gassed a planet in order to catch one guy. If anyone could outdo S31, it is Sisko.

[@Sephiroth144]

@@Blasted2Oblivion It literally balanced the scales, after that "one guy" did exactly the same thing- well, almost the same, since Sisko gave the Maquis colony warning.

[@Blasted2Oblivion]

@@Sephiroth144 Two wrongs don't make a right.

[@Sephiroth144]

@@Blasted2Oblivion They'd have to square up with the Cardassian colonists sooner or later; Sisko just got the ball rolling sooner. Also, you think the fugitive wasn't going to use his weapon again? Sisko stopped him and provided a home to the colonists Eddington displaced.

[@Blasted2Oblivion]

@@Sephiroth144 I'm not saying that it wasn't for the best over all but he didn't do it to stop the attack. Remember, Eddington offered to hand over the rest of the weapons so that they couldn't do it anymore. That would have prevented it. Sisko didn't agree to stop gassing planets until Eddington agreed to hand himself over as well. The end result was a positive but Sisko's motivation for gassing the planets was purely personal and that is what makes him scarier than S31. They are at least motivated by a belief that they are doing bad things for the greater good.

[@cw8jwh]

For anyone that honestly cares about and studies history: There will ALWAYS be some form of 'Section 31' in every age, empire and society throughout the sum-total history of the universe.

[@MitchQuadrupleTree]

To whomever keeps editing in the Horga'hn into select shots: bravo, and please keep up the good work.

[@ashedarke]

Thanks, nice to be noticed 👍😂

[@MitchQuadrupleTree]

@@ashedarke I noticed it a time or two before, but seeing it next to Sloan was hilarious.

[@ChaoticOrcPaladin]

Broooo, it's not corps like corpse, it's corps like core. Also, love your vids. Please keep up the good work!

[@zooropa04]

Loved the Babylon 5 cutaway!

[@beccastevens1588]

Is that what that was? How is that related? I was so confused, having never seen Babylon 5

[@triroc1]

After watching Star Trek: Lower Decks and Discovery, my love of the franchise has been brought back in full.

[@mikeneil798]

PERSONALLY I wouldn't be SHOCKED if at least ONE crew member from the main casts of all the Trek shows weren't secretly reporting to section 31. Lol what do we REALLY know about say Scotty, or Pike's crew? FRANKLY I think Jim Kirk would at least LISTEN to what section 31 has to say. Can you HONESTLY say that No one on Picard' treasured inner circle crew wasn't feeding Section 31 information about certain things?

[@tomepfi]

I'd think every ship would have an operative on it. Best way to keep tabs on the entire fleet.

[@Blasted2Oblivion]

​@@tomepfiVoyager might have even had two if S31 was smart enough to have "former starfleet" people on the Maqui ships.

[@mikeneil798]

It was the writers of the BEST Trek show DS9 that came up with the idea of basically STAR TREK CIA

[@Sephiroth144]

@@Blasted2Oblivion Yeah, but they fumbled the ball when they recruited Seska.

[@spiderboy43]

@@Sephiroth144 tbf they didn't know Seska was a dirty Cardassian. The Cardies did have other deep cover operatives, as we saw with Tribunal.

[@supremeownage8995]

I always felt Bashir's reaction to learning of section 31 was surprising. I mean sure the idea of such a rogue operation just roaming around with the authority to do whatever it likes does go against the idea of the Federation, but Bashir always seemed facinated by spy stuff. But Sloan I thought seemed very honest when he said it took exceptional people to do what they do, people that can give up their ambition for the betterment of the Federation. I think perhaps he missed a chance here, I think a passionate advocate of the Federation way of life would have done well in section 31.

[@seanthornton4382]

To bad there was never a scene where Sloan and Garak run into each other. Ohh the possibilities for such a scene.

[@deanthemachine8879]

I like Section 31 as antagonists and not as “necessary evils” that shows like Jack Ryan, Homeland, or 24 (not the CIA, but close enough) try to cast them as. If they were to function more like real intelligence agencies, for every problem they thought they were solving, they’d create like 10 more. Our heroes should always stand against them if possible

[@benjaminbierley2074]

As a fan of both B5 and DS9, B5 was VERY much less a rival and more a precursor, it's all but a historical fact within the fandom(s) that when B5 was looking to get picked up Paramount asked to "borrow" the series bible...and only returned it about a half a year later. Then low and behold DS9 cropped up with some eerie similar framework and elements, that had the numbers scratched off...but while the B5 creators didn't make a stink about it, it was generally an open secret DS9 cribbed directly from the B5 series bible during conception. Both shows are good, but it's obvious one copied the homework of the other. (and given how tight B5's plot was being mapped out completely from beginning to end, the bible had a LOT to work with for story elements.)

[@gerrimilner9448]

love the sneeky entry of everyones second/forth (3 back to the futures) favoret 80 sci-fi

[@mikeneil798]

For those or you who say in Roddenberry vision of Teek, there'd be no Section 31. As Odo said in DS9, the Federation would be FOOLS not to. In the history of civilization EVERY society's Government had people to handle problems for them that their Leaders couldn't be seen involved in.

[@Arcella1981]

I mean I do have to say, I do agree that Roddenberry's vision wouldn't have section 31, I personally wished section 31 didn't exist, it adds to much chance for corruption for my taste, at the same time it didn't ruin the series for me, only because it was used semi sparingly except for I think DS9, I would have liked it a lot better if it was a rogue person that did this, kind of like the Maquis, having section 31 being as part of Starfleet kind of is a let down for me, having a section of Starfleet that can just choose not follow any of the rules or laws just makes it so that you can justify anything, imo kind of lazy really ( oh in this episode we want this person to do this... OH! wait we cant because Starfleet wouldn't do that...... I KNOW! well make up section 31 so that Starfleet is still not to blame because its secret! )

[@lazrus01]

In Roddenberry's view, we had moved beyond such warlike things. They were for less evolved societies.

[@emoteen011]

i am of two minds about section 31 and ds9 as a whole. for me ds9 has some of the best writing of any show i've seen, it is at times thrilling, funny and dramatic. the charecters of ds9 are great and inspire a level of intrigue and the thought put into this setting is great. that being said, the nature and gritty-ish realism of the stories are at some level contradictory to the initial intentions of Roddenberry, i do not deny the quality of the story nor do i ignore the moments when this show has me in its thrall, but when it comes down to it "in the pale moonlight" my favorite episode is directly contradictory to that initial vision.

[@chrisruston3920]

Love the Babylon 5 drop!

[@danielgilleland8611]

7:32 - That was a partial quote: "I doubt we'll see them on Enterprise. [pause] They might be there, but I doubt we'll see them." ;)

[@peterc.810]

Enterprise and deep space nine were the bolder of the Star Trek Series.

[@alm2187]

Opening statement: uh, no. We'd never heard of Section 31 until Bashir expressed disbelief in and disapproval of their existence after the founding years. That's a pretty damn well-kept secret.

[@nitehawk86]

6:55 I thought this was gonna be a joke about a Psi Corp operative as a security officer on the Enterprise-D :)

[@jessetellez3924]

Fan theory, Jake Sisko is actually an agent of Section 31 and has been since he decided not to join Star Fleet Academy!!! His writing authorship is simply a cover for his activities. This is why in many episodes he says he has his writing "sources" but we never discover who they are. Additionally, this is how and why Jake pushes for Major Kira and Odo to create a Starfleet resistance cell during the Dominion occupation of DS9. In addition, this is how Section 31 is able to poison Odo without having anyone in direct contact with Odo except... Jake Sisko. This is the real reason why Jake Sisko decides to stay on DS9 and how he somehow takes part indirectly in so many military operations. Additionally, Mourn the alien who frequents Quark's bar, is also a member of Section 31, which is why he is seemingly in the background but never directly interferes with the story.

[@jaredekelman4229]

I Love Star Trek but the Ones I Love Most are the Ones I Grew Up with. Next Generation, Deep Space Nine and Voyager. Section 31 was a Very Interesting Story Idea in Deep Space Nine. I thought it was an Awesome Way to Add More Depth to the Over All Awesome Show. I Love Your Channel. You Always Keep it Interesting and Fun. Thank You for Keeping it Appropirate and Not Indecent. Thank You for Helping to Keep Star Trek Relivent and Exciting. Your Doing an Awesome Job!👍👍

[@evilcouchpotato6875]

The fact that we never see any psychics in a section 31 uniform/badge has some SCARY implications Imagine if the Tal Shiar could read minds, alter memories and influence others without their cumbersome technology...

[@STSWB5SG1FAN]

A rumor has it that Section 31 were the secret endorsers / benefactors of the research at Darwin Station (TNG:"Unnatural Selection").

[@ryanedgerton1982]

Two possibilities jump to mind. First, there are indeed individuals with psychic talents within Section 31 -- after all, they'd have access to all of the Federation's data on psychic abilities, plus access to races that already possess a measure of innate psychic talent such as Vulcans. Alternatively, they may have viewed psychic abilities as a potential risk factor and instead focused on concealing themselves from psychics / defeating psychic powers. Both could even be true, with different elements of the organization having different specializations...

[@GSBarlev]

After first watching _Babylon 5_ I would occasionally sing "Mary Had a Little Lamb" inside my head as loud as I could in crowded places to see if anyone winced. I recently watched the _TAS_ episode "The Slaver Weapon," so now I just think about eating really disgusting (to most people) food.

[@347Jimmy]

The Psy Corps from B5 at their worst are practically a Section 31 equivalent comprised _entirely_ of psychics

[@nwalsh3]

I get that calling B5 the "rival" space station show gets the comments flowing on a Trek-oriented vid, but I'd jsut calling them contemporary. With different premises they are not really comparable. Don't get me wrong here, I live B5 and DS9 and DS9 is probably my favourite Star Trek show.

[@PaulSmith-vo3ge]

Great video

[@peterq1978]

ssshhh Sean, dont let antone accuse you of being a S31 agent!!

[@kimhughes2478]

Listening to this playing stfc ❤

[@Sephiroth144]

Oh, the Easter Egg at 10:59

[@ashedarke]

Bashir gives the Sloane the finger, how random 😂

[@Sephiroth144]

@@ashedarke Sloane or the director (17 bleeping takes?!?); hard to say which...

[@whuffer5103]

I came here to say that made me laugh so hard.

[@datfloof2732]

Could u do a top 10 vid about the uss equinox pls?

[@MrARock001]

An interesting retcon to The Undiscovered Country might have put Admiral Cartwright and Colonel West in Section 31, working to reignite the war with the Klingons.

[@the_once-and-future_king.]

They were, according to EU novels. The scary part is war against the King Klingon and Romulan empires was the goal whether the conspiracy worked or not. Assassination of the Federation President would demand action, and just the Klingons and Romulans working together in an _attempted_ assassination (conveniently leaving out the Federation's part in it) would cause public calls for military action.

[@antney7745]

But why would an organization created to deal with threats, want to start a war?

[@the_once-and-future_king.]

@antney7745 A war is a way of removing that threat. The Klingons were already on the back foot due to Praxis, and the Romulans couldn't match Starfleet at that point so they'd either lose spectacularly or capitulate.

[@antney7745]

@@the_once-and-future_king. Ah, so the intention was to eventually take the Klingons "off the board" completely? I guess that makes sense.

[@the_once-and-future_king.]

@antney7745 Precisely. The likes of Cartwright and West were a representation of the old warhawks who didn't want peace. As such they were ideal for Section 31 to get on board. West bringing up 'acceptable losses' is an insight into his particular mindset. Not 'minimal losses' or 'regrettable losses', just 'acceptable' losses.

[@Overlord24]

The end justified the means. Bashir hated that but did just that when he kidnapped Sloane and used illegal Romulan tech to pry the cure from his Brain. So much for ethics my good doctor

[@KingOfMadCows]

I don't think a lot of fans understand why Section 31 is so controversial. Starfleet already has an intelligence/espionage agency. Starfleet Intelligence conducts convert operations against hostile powers. They do it on potential threats. Starfleet also uses advanced surveillance technology. When Spock went missing, Starfleet was able to quickly find Spock and get pictures of him on Romulus. Starfleet conducted tons of operations on the Cardassians. They supported the Cardassian dissident movement, they had moles in the Cardassian Central Command, they took in Cardassian defectors. What makes Section 31 controversial is their willingness to pre-emptively take extreme actions against the Federation's foes. Starfleet gathers intelligence on the Federation's enemies but it doesn't move against them unless there is an imminent threat like if someone is gathering an invasion fleet or preparing to launch a bio-weapon. But Section 31 will move against a someone far in advance. Like when they took out Cretak to advance their mole Koval. Cretak hadn't done anything against the Federation yet but they took her out because she might go against the Federation if it suited the interests of the Romulans at some undetermined point in the future. That kind of action is extremely dangerous, especially when taken by an organization without any oversight or accountability. Because anyone can be a potential threat. The Klingons have gone to war with the Federation many times, should Section 31 wipe out the Klingons in case they become hostile again? What about Federation citizens who go against what Section 31 believes to be the best interests of the Federation? What if there's a popular politican who wants Starfleet to be less militaristic? That could make the Federation more vulnerable, should Section 31 frame the poltician for a crime and destroy his career? Section 31 has no oversight, they can do whatever they want to protect the Federation, whatever that means.

[@STSWB5SG1FAN]

Or is it that they only ACT like they have no oversight?🤨🤔 The highest of the higher ups in both Star Fleet and the Federation Council could be aware of Section 31 and giving it, begrudgingly, tacit approval for its activities. Even that popular politician could call on Starfleet to be less militaristic, knowing (or assuming) that there are those who will take up the slack.

[@russellhowson9565]

Of course we understand that. I think what you’re missing is that SFSI (Security and Intelligence in my head cannon) act more like the US FBI than the NSA or CIA but that’s not adequate for questioning what the cost of utopia is in real terms. Being public organs subject to the principles and oversight of Starfleet Command and the Federation Council would deliver resolutions like Disco where they don’t retain control of the bomb but hand it over to L’Rell to unite and control the Klingon empire. In real life the US dropped two nuclear bombs on Japan because Pearl Harbor. So there’s no way Starfleet is so inept as to be losing a war to such a brutal enemy without some division of officers advocating for the obvious action that needed to be taken to save the Federation. That’s what makes the story of S31 so compelling. How does this organization exist within this utopia society? But also how is it possible for this utopia to exist without a S31? Because SI just cannot compare to the Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar.

[@squaresphere]

Completely disagree with the last statement that the inclusion of section 31 did question the fundamental of the federation we were introduced to. It allowed us to doubt the intentions of the federation and almost every series since then have had to fight elements that tear at the foundation of trust that the federation was supposedly founded on. I'll also point out that up through now section 31 has been depicted as almost only human driven which brings into question are they really only doing the thing the federation needs.

[@Saibot79]

DS9 was always my favorite because it made the universe more real to me. Paradise can be paradise because of the darker side.

[@JohnnyWednesday]

I wish this could be a Babylon 5 channel too. My KZbin life would be complete!

[@40KBunker]

Sean appears to be wearing a bin bag 😂

[@Edwards-Videos]

Reminds me of MI6 in the UK. Everyone knew it existed but the Government denied it for years.

[@willpower8061]

I could believe a Section 31 might exist during the Dominion war, but NEVER during the formation of Starfleet. It would make no sense.

[@ploofedoof1]

you forgot to include that Daniels from Enterprise may have been a Section 31 agent...his actions only make sense under the context of being an agent...he would routinely interfere with history, provided Archer with very advanced tech on at least 2 occasions, and even was seen in the all black outfit...under any other context his actions were reckless at best, and the lack of oversight he seemed to enjoy was also interesting....modifying history with no mention of the temporal prime directive...

[@Sniper361984]

I dont think knowledge of Section 31 was as wide spread during Discovery as its assumed. Section 31 helped build the ship. The spore drive is highly classified. The crew would need to have had a high security clearance to even work on the ship. Its only natural that they would be informed of S31s existence. And Pike was brought up to speed, so he too would have been informed of S31s existsnce. That doesnt necessarily mean they knew everything S31 has done in its history. Just that there is blacker than black ops division of Starfleet.

[@PauperJ]

You forgot how it was Section 31 who clandestinely changed a supreme poker player with a 100% winning ratio in "The Emissary" (Worf) to one who lost every time thereafter with ridicule from Data and Geordi.

[@HrLBolle]

7:04 Walter Koenig? the man in the middle

[@TheTransporter007]

Starfleet/S31's biggest error EVER was not exterminating the Changelings. Change my mind.

[@ashedarke]

I was so gunning for them being the main bad guys in Picard S3, but nooo, it's the Borg 😒

[@supernautacus]

The Omega directive from Star trek Voyager shows exactly how Section 31 is intended to operate - and why. Only Starship Captains and higher have any awareness of 31. Janeway could have even have been a Starfleet contact to 31. She was VERY willing to - like Section 31, work beyond The Prime Directive.

[@safebox36]

I know some people dislike it but either being too secretive or too out in the open. But I kinda like them. Their being a secretive organisation yet every captain knowing they at least exist but nothing more kinda makes them more imposing to me. Like the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order don't try to hide per se, but they try to keep their dirty laundry to themselves while presenting an air of threat. Similar to the KGB or Men in Black of the 50s. Section 31 on the otherhand hides its very existence from most of Starfleet and the Federation. And any who want themselves to be known, feel like they're part of a grand tapestry of misdirection being weaved by Section 31. Almost a sort of brag at how good they are at keeping secrets that it's their choice whether they want to be made known to allies and enemies alike.

[@iffieaesar7620]

Wibble!!!!!!!!!!! XD

[@stephandolby]

Maybe Bashir's "300 years" mistake is a nod to Khan Noonien Singh's "on Earth... 200 years ago..." mistake.

[@frankharr9466]

That Bashir would be unsure about the history of 31 makes sense. It's not like they advertized.

[@Jayjay-qe6um]

I'm still wishing for a Section 31 TV series (not just the movie).

[@DavidKnowles0]

But it needs to be DS9 section 31, which was actually interesting, not discovery version.

[@acdallas6356]

As soon as I know it's you, Sean, I will be watching. Section 31 knows that.

[@oliversacco7320]

I would love to be a part of them ❤

[@HammerJammer81]

I miss Sloan, my gawd he was good

[@weshurst4895]

I don’t remember Star Trek into darkness revealing that admiral Markus was section 31

[@ashedarke]

It's in a meeting in Marcus's office between him and Kirk after the attack.

[@dinomonzon7493]

I consider Section 31 as the Federation’s version of the Impossible Missions Force.

[@knghtbrd]

Notably, Bureau 13 was part of the Babylon 5 bible that folks who went on to create DS9 did in fact see. Joe Straczynski says that DS9 was not based in any way on B5…years after he said otherwise, a few times, and there were likely lawyers involved. Whatever agreement came out of that … came out of it. My guess is that DS9 did unintentionally borrow a fair bit from B5. People who evaluate these things read a lot of pitches, scripts, show bibles, etc. If I wind up working on something weeks or months after I read something and the thing I'm working on has some similarities to what I read, things I read might come to mind without me realizing where they came from. Does that infringe Copyright? I mean, possibly. If you have a stack of examples of interestingly similar details, names, etc. you might want to offer a settlement. If that happened, we aren't privy to the details. Both good shows, watched them back to back and had a blast with them both.

[@ianlister7333]

Watching this I cant help but wonder what Section 31 were doing during Undiscovered Country. Did they blow up Praxas, or were they part of the conspiracy?

[@DougBurke89]

In a Trek RPG game set about two years before ST6, I made Colonel West an operative of Section 31. Seemed a good fit.

[@ianlister7333]

@@DougBurke89 yeah I could see it. Blowing up a moon would be a BIG move by S31.

[@DougBurke89]

@@ianlister7333 Not to mention assassinating the Federation president and blaming the Klingons...

[@ianlister7333]

@@DougBurke89 if we take the "the end justify the means" point of view, blowing up Paraxas feels more likely to have a good ending, than framing the Klingons for killing the President.

[@PhantomObserver]

Not likely. In Spock’s briefing it was explained that poor environmental practices (overmining and corrupted oversight) led to the Praxis explosion. AKA it was the Klingon government’s fault. The conspiracy against Gorkon / Azetbur was fomented by elements of the Klingon, Federation and Romulan governments who genuinely feared a major change in the status quo, with its subsequent phasing out of operations and operational doctrines rendered obsolete by the change in Klingon fortunes.

[@Dc-alpha]

Any neutered Trek canon aside. Since DS9 I've often wondered, who from TOS, TNG Voyager and ENT were S31. In my head almost certainly Picard (think about it) maybe Kirk, possibly Chakotay and deffo Chef.

[@mistybethune9116]

correction on malcolm reed there was no starfleet academy in the enterprise's time

[@chrisstetsko5020]

Thinking back what were some episode that "hinted" at Section 31 involvement. In TOS there was "The Enterprise Incident" the first time the Federation successfully got their hands on a cloaking device. "Dagger of the Mind" test a new toy like the neural neutralizer on the criminally insane sounds like something Section 31 would do. "The Ultimate Computer" M5 could have definitely been a Section 31 supported project. "Project Genesis" has Section 31 written all over it from Star Trek II. "The Conspiracy" in Star Trek must have been organized and planned at some point by Section 31, and they were the only ones to slip away unscathed while everyone else took the fall. C'mon on TNG, its obvious that the cloaking/matter device on "The Pegasus" was a Section 31 project. "The Measure of a Man" sounds like Section 31 had recruited Commander Bruce Maddox to get his hands on Data to disassemble him in order to figure out how Soong built him order to build more. "Lower Decks" (the TNG episode) definitely a Section 31 mission. Recovering a Cardassian spy and then masking his faux escape all under strict Top Secret silence. "Inheritance" is it possible that Juliana O'Donnell was a Section 31 keeping tabs on Noonien Soong. The whole Briar Patch operation from "Insurrection" especially looked like Section 31 operation, especially during the Dominion War to make happy a technologically advanced new ally.

[@christopherhuff237]

Does this mean section 31 was involved in some way with the events that took place in undiscovered country?

[@rccraig7580]

Section 31 the ultimate clandestine spy organization whose secrets have secrets on top of secrets wrapped in secrets.

[@scottmantooth8785]

*3:23**...using chatgpt i wrote a concept where Soone's very first androids were facsimiles of the three stooges...still remarkably intelligent and adept in whatever they were tasked at doing but still acted like the three stooges towards each other...i would still like to see that actually happen at some point*

[@Canoby]

I rather reject the notion that the Federation NEEDS Section 31; it exists despite S31. That said, its inclusion does add storytelling possibilities and a sense of realism to the universe.

[@MrMiller2048]

Section 31 reminds me of a similar secret agency within the government or military, in a science fiction universe. Such as the organization know as ONI [ Office of Naval Intelligence ] from Halo Universe. But I believe ONI are way more darker than Section 31.

[@davidjackson6835]

Things I've learned....at 0:13...the fellow to the right of the Empress is played by Alan van Sprang, who was Howlyn, the Atavus leader in season 5 of "Earth Final Conflict"...once a SCIFI actor....always a SCIFI actor!!

[@FordCooke]

We aren't supposed to know anything about Section 31, it's not like they're UNIT.😅

[@petemarqdadon]

Haha maybe they are supposed to be like Torchwood

[@PhantomObserver]

Well … not quite. UNIT dealt mainly with extraterrestrial threats, and they weren’t really covert in their activities since they were an international organization supported by several governments including the UK (hence the Geneva HQ location). UNIT’s corporate knowledge may have been folded into Starfleet, but not necessarily Section 31. (Although it’s possible 31 may have inherited the Black Archive as part of their own formative charter.)

[@grahamturner1290]

🖖

[@HrLBolle]

"for peace and paradise to prosper, those who dwell within the shadows must remain active at all times"

[@StephenLeGresley]

I think overall Buearu 13 has Section 31 beat when it comes to underhanded tactics. I mentioned in my other comment that Lyta Alexander quit them due to an incident. In the show there was a killer targeting Telepaths so 13 found him and putting a never-ending series of nightmares in his mind and left him in such a state that he had to be in a straight jacket 24 hours a day or he'd claw out his eyes in order to try and stop seeing the nightmares. I don't think 31 has done something on that level...yet.

[@gorgonzolastan]

Do all Irish (forgive me if I am misplacing the accent) say "corpse" for "Corps" ? Rather than "core" like Americans?

[@jasonjimerson7046]

Two questions on Sect. 31... One, who were the most ruthless? Section 31, The Tal'Shiar, or the Obsidian Order? Two, do the Klingons have their own version of Section 31, or would the existence of a secret organization be considered dishonorable?

[@russellhowson9565]

Disco introduced the House of Mokai, they are the spies of the empire but I agree with your first thought. I don’t think the Klingons would engage in espionage. It’s the reason I always questioned them using cloaking technology. There’s no way these honor bound warriors feel good about hiding their strength to fool their enemies.

[@GabePuratekuta]

House Pagh.