Should the West give more arms to Ukraine? | Peter Hitchens challenges Paul Mason

Conservative political commentator Peter Hitchens challenges radical journalist Paul Mason on supporting foreign players at war.
This excerpt was taken from "The fantasies of the West", featuring Paul Mason, Peter Hitchens, and Bhavna Dave. Mary Ann Sieghart hosts.
Watch the full debate at iai.tv/video/the-fantasies-of...
#ukrainewar #politicsdebate #ukforeignpolicy
Paul Mason is a radical author, commentator, and political journalist. Previously the Newsnight Business Editor, Economics Editor at Channel 4 News, where he reported on Europe's troubled economic crises. He is now a freelance author and journalist.
Peter Hitchens is an award-winning conservative author, broadcaster, journalist and political commentator. He has a weekly column in the Mail on Sunday and is a prolific contributor to a wide range of magazines.
The Institute of Art and Ideas features videos and articles from cutting edge thinkers discussing the ideas that are shaping the world, from metaphysics to string theory, technology to democracy, aesthetics to genetics. Subscribe today! iai.tv/subscribe?Y...
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[@Mac-ku3xu]

No mention of the fact that Mason was exposed as an undercover operative working on behalf of the British state?

[@lw1zfog]

Shhhhhhhhh ! 👀

[@michaelhorne582]

You see MAson looks so nervous. Probably wondering if any moment somebody (in the audience maybe) will mention that elephant in the room.

[@mikedon5205]

Dose not matter the last part of what he said is the problem for putin , nato is being used as an excuse .. Prigozhin killed Hitchens nato argument last month when he said the invasion was a vanity project for the Russian MOD Ukraine was to be captured to bring it back into the sphere of putins influence end of story

[@pauliewalnuts100]

OK but is he wrong here?

[@jacksmith3095]

It amazes me how immature political opinion has become in the U.K.

[@ThomasDanielsen1000]

Yeah, incredicble that Hitchens is so blind he can't see the war for what it is: a blatant and unprovoked Russian attack on Ukraine!

[@MultiWalrus1]

@dominionphilosophy3698what are you talking about, “the modern Left”? It’s a Tory government ffs 😂

[@rl7012]

@@MultiWalrus1 Nope the left have dragged down all standards.

[@hoxtondave9619]

@@MultiWalrus1 That phrase fits perfectly. It is our current government, it's Tory, it's modern, and it's very left wing. And predictably, like all left wing governments, extremely destructive.

[@MultiWalrus1]

@@hoxtondave9619 well now I’ve heard it all. “The Tories are too left wing” 😂

[@svenhanson398]

NATO has been training the Ukraine army for the last 8 years, it's definitively not a Russian or Soviet army.

[@fujohnson8667]

Paul Mason is such a Neo Con 😂

[@andyrobinson2653]

Strangely enough he is. But he is on the left side of that fence. Which answers who runs the democratic party.

[@lw1zfog]

he’s an alphabet agency asset

[@seanmoran2743]

Globalist Voice

[@svenhanson398]

In the end of march, beginning in April, in Istanbul, the two parties in this conflict were on their way to an agreement. Then Boris Johnson went to Kiev, and the negotiations ended after that visit. UK and US wanted this war to continue.

[@briansmith3791]

Yes. Zelensky was voted in on a Peace platform, with 72% of the vote. As Aaron Mate, on the Jimmy Dore Show revealed, Zelensky has been threatened with death by Ukrainian Nazis if he attempts to have peace talks with Russia.

[@bigmac786]

of course they do; Russia threatens the US financial reserve and western hegemony. The US has flat out admitted they were not going to allow the Nord Stream to happen; why? To keep the West addicted to US energy, and not allow Western powers to become more independent, thus weakening US power. This war is not about Ukraine, not in the slightest.

[@ThomasDanielsen1000]

Absolute nonsense. Putin is the only one who wants this war to continue!

[@marcobarroso6433]

Ah ah! How naive! So what was that agreement?

[@peterkirk123]

@@marcobarroso6433 If NATO`s messenger boy Boris Johnson hadn't put a stop to peace talks under the orders of his bosses from the US military complex Russia had agreed to completely withdraw and Ukraine agreed to be a neutral country !

[@alanchriston6806]

Mason should do the Japanese honourable act. 😊🏴‍☠️

[@Oioisaviloy]

Big comment

[@felontrump5910]

Key Point: NATO was formed in 1949 during the height of the Cold War to oppose the Soviet Union. List Of Countries Joining NATO And Its Expansion West Since the Collapse of The Soviet Union In 1991: 1. 1990: Poland, Czech Republic and Hungary. 2.2004: Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Rumania and Bulgaria 3. 2009: Croatia and Albania 4. 2017: Montenegro. 5. 2020: North Macedonia. 6. Membership Action Plan: Bosnia and Herzegovina 7. In Intensified Dialogue: Georgia and Ukraine. Putin had warned the Ukraine and NATO that he would not allow the Ukraine to join NATO and have US bases based next to its (Russia’s) border. The provocation is the Intensive Dialogue between the Ukraine and NATO for the Ukraine to join NATO. It should be noted that Russian defence strategy always takes into account the invasions of Russian from countries to its West. First by France and then by Germany. Putin is no angel, but he has been pushed into a corner by the US and Western policy of getting former Soviet Union and Eastern Bloc countries to join NATO and the EU resulting in more and more US military facilities being based closer and closer to Russia’s borders. There is a failure to acknowledge this provocation by the US, NATO and the EU. Imagine the reaction if the US if the boot was on the other foot and Russia had agreements to base military facilities in Canada, Mexico or even Cuba?

[@peterdamen2161]

The difference is that we are fighting for a right cause, i.e. democracy and freedom, while Russia is fighting for a wrong cause, i.e. autocracy and oppression. Shame that you don't understand the difference!

[@felontrump5910]

@@peterdamen2161 In the same way, the US and UK fought the 19-year illegal war in Iraq (based on a lie told by Bush and Blair about weapons of mass destruction) that has reduced Iraq to rubble and resulted in an estimated 281,000 - 315,000 people killed by direct violence since the invasion? Then there are those who have been maimed, injured, traumatized or bereaved. I could mention what the US and UK are doing in Afghanistan, Syria and Libya; but I am sure you have begun to think and see clearly.

[@peterdamen2161]

@@felontrump5910 No! That war was very justifiable, as we tried to bring democracy and prosperity to Iraq. You are clearly in some sort of anti-western bubble and cannot see clearly what we are trying to achieve, i.e. bring the results of the Enlightment and humanism to those regions on earth. Everybody wants that. And we can see that because we have refugees from those countries flooding our countries, not the other way around. Why would that be, smart ass......

[@Coconautify]

Well if this invasion was a response to NATO expansion (and its not, according to Putin's own writings on the "Rus" and Russian Imperialism), then it was a spectacular fail wasn't it? Not only did his attempt to take Kyiv in four days not work out, but his actions resulted in a doubling of his present border with NATO.

[@timkbirchico8542]

well said.

[@AriesKJJ2]

I do find it interesting that in the 70's & 80's we thought "bombing for peace" was an oxymoron and today it's the commonly accepted policy... though also back then, "war profiteering" was something to be ashamed of.

[@cinikcynic3087]

Peter, the voice of reason.

[@benfindlay6280]

Peter, the voice of a soggy Christian pacifist.

[@cinikcynic3087]

@@benfindlay6280 soggy-not, christian-does not matter, anti war-Yes!!

[@woodyg1626]

Peter, wrong about Brexit (and didnt even vote) and wrong about Putin attacking Ukraine. Some reasoning there I tell ya!

[@SagaciousFrank]

​@@benfindlay6280 , except he's not a pacifist. Where do you get this nonsense from?

[@cinikcynic3087]

@@woodyg1626 What is wrong about Brexit? What was wrong about Putin?

[@odinallfarther6038]

Some of my best friend's are leftist says back stabbing Paul Mason 🤣

[@simbo3228]

Don't bother clicking the link to watch the "full debate" on their site. 5 minutes will play then prompt you to create an account

[@ThePierre58]

I am huge fan of Hitchens, his book, " The Abolition of Britain" is on my Audilble favourites. However, I disagree with Peter on Ukraine. Its their country and I have no problem with helping Poland defend its borders.

[@SagaciousFrank]

You have no problem with it? I don't think it only impacts you. And maybe get yourself over there then. People who want war are almost invariably those who have never witnessed it first hand.

[@ThePierre58]

@@SagaciousFrank Falklands 1982, Iraq 2007 Northern Ireland 1981, how about you?

[@SagaciousFrank]

@@ThePierre58 , I'm ineligible for any of the armed forces due to a disability, although I applied for the Royal Navy about fifteen years ago and was declined. My paternal Grandfather in-law was a Royal Marine Commando in WWII, and his eldest son served during The Troubles in the 70's, nobody who ever saw war wanted to see any more of it.

[@ThePierre58]

@@SagaciousFrank impressive. Actually I drove a truck in Iraq, 11 years, US Military. 45 Commando Royal Marines in South Atlantic, yomped, never fired my weapon in anger!

[@hughwardjackson4776]

I was in the boy scouts and I agree with hitchens.

[@jusmeetsingh1907]

The Ukrainian State apparatus was captured by the West in 2014 via the Nuland coup... and by it Ukraine was savagely wrested out of Russian orbit into Western control. It is the West which controls and drives Ukraine after that coup. And since, since then it is the West which bears primary responsibility for the upheaval and anarchy which has followed. So it will be highly unfair if the West too doesnt get hurt and bears some grievous loss and terrible pains for its manipulations which have triggered the conflict. If only Ukraine and Russia suffer, the conflict will never get resolved. The real promoter is escaping consequence-free. And so for the sake of world peace and for quickly resolving this conflict the West too must suffer as much.. if not more than Ukraine. Unless the West gets its teeth politely smashed in by a New World Order it will continue to behave like a pompous abusive geopol hegemon. And for that, it is imperative that NATO & West Must Enter This Fight And Not Manage It From The Sidelines... The conflict must explicitly become a NATO-Russia fight. It will be very grueling for Russia. But if Russia gives some body blows to knock the West of its high horse .. it would have done a great service to mankind by its aggression on Ukraine.. Violating all commitments to Russia, NATO had already advanced eastwards across all of East Europe... But in the end, Russia couldn't stay paralyzed as this Brightest Red Line Ukraine was getting violated... the last straw on the camels back. So despite the immense power of NATO and the prospectd of a very ruinous conflict ahead, Russia was left with no option but to intervene and stand up to Western perfidy. No matter what cost & hurt it has to bear.. This period might be dangerous and costly for Russia but thankfully for the world this conflict might end up knocking West from its pedestal and making the World a fairer place.. at great cost to Ukraine and Russia. ❤

[@claranordblom8968]

I agree that diplomacy and other communication avenues are the Best tools for reversing this hopeless dangerous situation

[@captainchadapparelaccessor6556]

Like Russia is actually interested in diplomacy 🤦‍♂️

[@marcobarroso6433]

That was tried. Before and at the beginning of the invasion european leaders were talking to Putin, and he was evan saying Russia had no intention to invade Ukraine. Putin is pathological liar and only understands force.

[@Coconautify]

@@captainchadapparelaccessor6556 This. The point Peter et al keep missing is that if Russia was interested in peace it would have moved its troops out of Ukraine by now. Most countries and indeed Peter himself maintain the peace talks should be based around the restoration of all Ukrainian sovereign territory. Given Russia has just annexed four Ukrainian oblasts, how is it envisaged that Russia is going to entertain this prerequisite? C'mon, lets hear it Peter, because so far in all the 'talks' (monologues) I've heard from this man, I've yet to hear how we square this circle.

[@jimmyjames5685]

I agree. There is nothing wrong with tough negotiations.

[@ThomasDanielsen1000]

@@jimmyjames5685 Russia is obviously not interested in negotiations at this point. So what is there to talk about?

[@lw1zfog]

Mason is a glowie

[@blackbird5634]

"Surrounded: How the US is encircling China with military bases." -John Reed 2013, Foreign Policy website. The US is edging closer to both China and Russia with its CIA listening stations, and ''first strike operating bases.'' Mr Hitchens makes the point, Xi and Putin are upset about this and it is important to recognize why.

[@CHIEF_420]

🇺🇲 es corrupto con demasiado mucho loco "blanco" hombres en la gobierno y sociedad hoy

[@Maelli535]

Why? Because both are scared of being caught out doing something nasty and illegal. That's why.

[@michaelhorne582]

@@Maelli535 not very good at logic are you?

[@Maelli535]

@@michaelhorne582 And you are? Your post is irrelevant, to say the least.

[@guojunma9802]

@@Maelli535 You are a degenerate are you?

[@MrMjp58]

Excellent.

[@erker6423]

Peter Hitchens, the last British man of reason ?

[@Coconautify]

Err, no.

[@LouisMenotti]

@@Coconautify certainly not the only. But one of the only the prominent ones, err yes.

[@stuartwray6175]

Mason talks of territorial integrity and the Budapest Memorandum, but omits to mention the 1997 Friendship Treaty, which effectively forbid Ukrainian NATO alignment. Why in 2008, did George Bush Jr push for Ukraine NATO membership when not only Germany and France opposed such a move, but also a majority of Ukrainians? Privately, in 2008, Russia told the US of the potential for civil war in Ukraine (which is what happened post 2014). Also in 2008, Bill Burns (currently the head of the CIA) told Condoleezza Rice that NATO expansion into Ukraine was the "brightest of red lines" not only for Putin but the entire political and military elite in Russia.

[@Coconautify]

Putin doesn't decide foreign policy for Ukraine, Ukraine does.

[@seanmoran2743]

Remember Paul represents the same voices that pushed for intervention in Iraq Afghanistan Syria Libya Etc etc etc While meanwhile in the English Channel

[@Screaming-Trees]

It's kind of sad to see what's happened to Paul Mason though. Point of information, Ukraine never had nuclear weapons. I don't know where he got it in his head that they did. Moscow always had the keys to that and was under total control at all times. Unless Ukraine were to disassemble these things and done a complete rebuild, which didn't happen, they wouldn't have had access to the weapons (logical access; which you need to operate the things in the first place) anyway. They never did. As for "all the young people I've met there want to live in western reality" well that's anecdotal. I can't believe these types of arguments are allowed to be made. It's utter amateur bullshit with this guy. Especially since we know that Ukraine not only has a massive minority Russian contingent living in these now hotly contested eastern provinces and that they've been fighting a war of secession there for the last 8 years (We know this from 8 years worth of UN reports). He would have had to have interviewed over 2500 young people to be able to make the beginnings of an empirical argument. His sample size would have had to have included minorities. Had he done that he would have found a different result. Moreover we seem to believe in the freedom of association of any country so long as it is perceived to be in our national interest. We don't believe in say Cuba's right to freedom of association or Venezuela or Iran etc etc. If they did have the freedom to associate they might associate with those whom we deem a threat to us. God forbid. So we isolated Cuba for the last 60 years basically. For essentially the same right Mason is advocating for Ukraine here. THe guy is a fucking joke now.

[@MrBenbenky]

If Ukraine had not had nuclear weapons then the Budapest Memorandum would never been signed.

[@MrBenbenky]

Please explain how the non existent Ukrainian nuclear weapons lead to Budapest Memorandum and how it delegitimize the international borders of Ukraine and its sovereignty? Please explain how your argument is not anecdotal? While countless public surveys, voting, mass protests and mere observance of the political scene of Ukraine says otherwise to your claim? And how does it justify that war?

[@poes1314]

🤣

[@PeterSquitieri]

So the Budapest treaty was just a charade, a kind of Kabuki theatre? I'm sure the Ukranians didn't think so.

[@Screaming-Trees]

@@PeterSquitieri It's like a widespread disease on here called reading apprehension. Did you read through the thread? The issue is rather well explained. Moscow had controls of those weapons at all times not Ukraine. To suggest Ukraine had nuclear weapons is completely false. They were never under Ukraine's control. And that's a pretty big issue that needs to be pointed out to augment Paul's misleading statement.

[@raymondedwards8111]

Thank God Hitchens wasn't around during the 2nd World War, he would have given Hitler half of England with more to follow.

[@Coconautify]

Quite right... We've been down this road before, shades of Neville Chamberlain methinks!

[@jimmyjames5685]

​@@Coconautify putin is not hitler and Russia's conventional forces have been decimated. I think Poland would even have a superior conventional military force. I hope you guys regain some perspective so that we can hammer out a long term peace deal that gives solid security guarantees to ukraine and is acceptable to russia.

[@Alphardus]

And we would have probably been better off for it.

[@bertvdl1178]

Dear Peter, A fire doesn't have agency nor intent.

[@JohnSmith-qq6qy]

What is the UKs strategic interest in Ukraine? Are we going to get involved in every historic spat? Now, if you look at the UK it's in a mess.

[@ThomasDanielsen1000]

It is certainly not in the West's interest to see Russia gobbling up Ukraine. Nor is it in the West's interest that blatant and unprovoked invasions of other countries go unpunished. And don't forget the West guaranteed the Budapest memorandum giving Ukraine security guarantees in exchange for giving up nuclear weapons.

[@lw1zfog]

‘gotta speculate to accumulate’, Halliburton & co always make good. $lava, $lava.

[@view1st]

​@@ThomasDanielsen1000 How can you use the phrase "unprovoked invasions" with a straight face given the recent history of NATO, Britain and the USA?

[@mtjoeng]

Bring weapons there and don't come back, pal ..

[@shmookins]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[@conorspence5332]

The West has done more than enough to be damned forever, now they should stop funding war

[@seanmoran2743]

Paul Mason talking about a treaty that came before NATO encroachment

[@monkerud2108]

what i despise is a person who takes a position and doesn't merely claim the opposition is wrong, but claims the opposition is morally bankrupt while not really engaging the arguments. and i'm sure peter wont do that.

[@VanRants]

OK war pig

[@woodyg1626]

That sounds 100 % like Peter

[@chonnerone2964]

I love Hitchens. We need more men like him and less fools like Mason.

[@raymondbedborough8522]

Go Peter

[@ThomasDanielsen1000]

Yeah he can go to hell along with his Russian comrades.

[@SajjadKhan-cl3yf]

Say no to appeasement. And help ukraine recover it's borders of 1991.

[@timkbirchico8542]

let us not forget the Cuban missile crisis. USA would not tolerate nuclear missiles anywhere close to its territory. Why should Russia allow nuclear missiles on its borders?

[@brianholmes3547]

Answer, YES!

[@joanam3070]

I think a solution between the two positions would be the right answer: Take any posibility of a negociated peace treaty while training and arming ukrainian military with weapons to survive and defend themselves. But the US is not interested in peace because war is benefiting its fuel and military industry on an economic and political level. For Europeans diplomacy, peace negociations and distancing from NATO is the only way to survive in the long run.

[@Coconautify]

I don't know how many times this point has been made, but I'll make it again - the US isn't negotiating for Ukraine... Ukraine is free to enter into peace talks, as has been clearly stated by ALL parties involved, when it is ready. And given Russia has just illegally taken and annexed over 10% of its sovereign territory, it is clearly not ready. Ukraine has made its premise clear for what constitutes a basis for peace talks, and we should all respect that. Please try to understand that this is not the US's war, it is about a country that has overwhelmingly chosen not to remain under the Russian boot and sees its future with Europe and the West.

[@timkbirchico8542]

@@Coconautify the media narrative regurgitated.

[@ThomasDanielsen1000]

@@timkbirchico8542 The truth regurgitated!

[@WiseOwl_1408]

​@@Coconautifynothing happens behind the scenes. No pressure on geo politics. Never in a proxy war

[@yuriyseliuk4120]

the problem is we want not just surviving, but leave normal live, which is not possible when russia in our soil, can blockade ports (which are essential for economic growth) without Crimea, prosperous Ukraine and safe Ukraine impossible. And hundreds of thousands people didnt die for country just to survive, they die for country to live prosperously!

[@wacquantx]

What's radical about Mason? His drinking?

[@Mac-ku3xu]

The fact that he’s a covert operative working for the British state is fairly radical.

[@andersstook3273]

Hitchens against the MI5 🐀.

[@tokajileo5928]

on iai webpage there is a free trial option but it is not. it asks all data including credit card data. it misleads. I will never pay to watch this. either it is available free or screw it.

[@sgordon8123]

NATO expansion was encouraged by Putin... It's a two provocation.

[@MeeesterBond17]

Let's all remember something here, comments section - we all (I believe) want the same thing, that is to say a minimisation of casualties in this war. It's just that nobody can agree how to achieve that. The anti-weapons delivery side have made the assumption that removing western weapons would make the Russian army back down. The pro-weapons delivery side have made the assumption that the Russian army can't be reasoned with, and removing western support would lead to far more Ukrainian deaths than otherwise. I think regardless of where you stand, you should admit that the above is largely true... excepting the "America/Russia bad" crowds. As for who made the right assumption, let's see. History will be the judge.

[@MeeesterBond17]

@@jameswadsworth7951 Actually I agree that Ukraine is on the right side of history. Please don't mistake my comment for the dumb "both sides" argument. Rather it's an acknowledgment that well-meaning people can come to both conclusions, especially if they're sitting comfortably in a different country. As for why I posted it... well, I'm trying to remain logical, but I will admit to being angered and sickened by Rossiya1 contributors demanding Ukrainian children be drowned. I'm hoping to get some anti-weapon delivery fans like Hitchens to think dialectically and realise we're the opposite of evil warmongers. On a personal note - Heroyam Slava.

[@henkverhaeren3759]

Very well said Peter. Totally agree. Stop the war madness. Seek peace, negotiate.

[@katerynahorytsvit1535]

Negotiating with Putin after everything he has done means the legalisation of all his crimes

[@SpokoSpoko]

I like to see Peter how he negotiate when a robber enters his house and starts beating his wife and children.

[@henkverhaeren3759]

@PIRX That is a good point you make to compare the situation. It makes me think.

[@henkverhaeren3759]

@Kateryna Horytsvit But how to go on fighting without this escalating into a world war with possibly a nuclear attack

[@ewanwillcox8874]

Peter has an almost childlike understanding of international conflict, how drawn out the process of bringing about peace talks is, and how many innocent lives are often lost in doing so. If you find his words seductive, I think you are probably easily impressed by the posh English man who uses big words. The best and quickest way to bring about peace talks is to put Putin on the backfoot.

[@darrengoldwyn1917]

mason mi5 stooge. See how he tried to attack grayzone.

[@garyjohnson1466]

Why do I need to watch this interesting discussion on ant network than you tube…

[@VinnyCarwash-js8op]

If they didn't have the weapons, Russia would win....That statement has aged wonderfully.

[@emmadownunder3833]

Peter is totally right. He’s about the only sane journalist left in Britain.

[@ThomasDanielsen1000]

Peter "I want Ukraine to surrender, so that I can have peace" Hitchens...

[@ianbanks2844]

Am I allowed to observe that one aspect that makes this an interesting discussion us that it is between a current member of the haed left against a former member of the hard left . Peter still argues and debates the way a hard left winger would . Of course he knows all their tricks and the wat they operate .

[@stenergut9661]

i prefer the other hitchens. may he rest in peace. peace will be brought about when russia is expelled from ukraine.

[@hughwardjackson4776]

If Russia is expelled from crimea for example what do you think that peace will look like for all those people that want to be part of Russia?

[@thelimey351]

I agree with Paul Mason. 👀 This has never happened before…😐

[@peterkirk123]

Paul Mason who has been exposed by The Grayzone as an MI5 / MI6 stooge !

[@thelimey351]

@@peterkirk123 I highly doubt that, but if he was an MI5/MI6 stooge then he was particularly s**t at his job !

[@lw1zfog]

@@thelimey351 uk ‘journalism’ is riddled with mi5/6 stooges

[@hughmcdonnell849]

Putinesque smearing? Any examples of that? Peter has a convenient blindspot to the obscene nature of the Kiev Regime. Heil Vlodimir is not a smear, it’s a sneer!

[@SagaciousFrank]

Making people pay to listen to a debate? Nah you're alright, I'll pass.

[@joprocter4573]

It pays for venue

[@SagaciousFrank]

​@@joprocter4573 , I didn't go to the venue though, I'm trying to watch it on KZbin. As much as I'd like to watch it, I'm not paying a premium. Didn't the people who attended pay for the venue?

[@joprocter4573]

NO

[@rileymckenzie6276]

the UK does not and should not have any involvement in this conflict whatsoever

[@ThomasDanielsen1000]

So we just let Russia steamroll into Ukraine and take what it want?

[@DODO-vy6sf]

4:52 Whatever he say to the hundreds of thousands killed and maimed Ukrainians, their answer will be this: "TO LIVE". Fullstop.

[@monkerud2108]

but do not mistake sophistry for sophistication. it doesn't matter how you sound or what words you choose to use, what matter is whether what you end up saying makes any sense.

[@Screaming-Trees]

Sophistry isn't about reasoning though. It's dishonest intentions. You use fallacious arguments with intent to deceive. You're fully aware of what you're doing. You could have perfect command of formal reasoning and still be a sophist.

[@briansmith3791]

Paul Mason is the sophist here. He's a proven MI5 asset.

[@sgordon8123]

@@briansmith3791 maybe there are two flipping sophists here.

[@briansmith3791]

@@sgordon8123 I disagree with P Hitchens on many things but i think he's that rare thing among journalists, his views are his own. I think he's right on Ukraine. They have to seek peace talks now, and try to salvage what's left of their country.

[@goonerland8195]

@@sgordon8123 nope ONLY Paul Mason here

[@lobohez7222]

Why so much fuzz when Ukraine winning, Russia decimated by genius sanctions?

[@RobertB0H]

Despite being a crank hitchen atleast has a working brain which gives him a huge advantage over mason

[@bertsede]

Hitchens' entire position assumes that Putin is open to some kind of peace agreement. That feels like a giant assumption. What would appease Putin? Being granted half of Ukraine? All of Ukraine? All of Ukraine and some of Moldova?.....It would feel little different than the attempts to appease Hitler in the late 1930s.

[@anglodoomer5995]

Change the record

[@bertsede]

@@anglodoomer5995 I would love to; problem is, history tends to like the same tunes

[@johnmccaffrey5942]

Er, what would appease Putin. Simple Ukrainian neutrality.

[@johnmccaffrey5942]

Don’t understand a Hitler analogy. In the 1930’s Hitler sought to move his military machine East. Now it’s NATO/the West who’s doing that.

[@ThomasDanielsen1000]

@@johnmccaffrey5942 No, NATO is simply accepting member states that are begging to join!

[@Coconautify]

Peter at his condescending best...

[@sgordon8123]

I think we all want humanity to stop fighting. Nukes seem to limit the scale of wars. Ukraine was foolish to give up nukes.

[@stuartwray6175]

Yeah, it could have threatened it's own people in donbas and Crimea with nuclear annihilation.

[@michaelhorne582]

@@stuartwray6175 IT still does by bombing the Zaporozhye nuclear powerplant regularly (and more recently destroying the dam that directeded water, not just to Crimea for drinking but to the power plants cooling).

[@MrLGD1234]

Cut to the slack jawed audience

[@livinginitaly16years80]

The woman in the right why does not She and Mason gov to the Russian/ ukranian front line and fight?

[@giselapfeifer4666]

No, it means Harakiri for Ukraine ..

[@ghostcat5303]

Hitchens is an interesting thinker which is a real anomaly in modern conservatism. As a socialist i have far more time for him than the charlatan Mason.

[@MrBenbenky]

Hitchens wanting to wait until people in the UK figure out Russian genocidal but also having immensely strong opinion about how bad "NATO expansion" presents performative display of empty rhetorical virtue signalling. Disgrace

[@gianlucam.gianburrasca5674]

Stop whining Peter

[@frun]

We don't need to interfere and let a fox 🦊 eat all chickens 🐔 -> 🍗

[@arcturus681]

How can Paul Mason still appear in public after Masongate? He is completely nuts

[@koumphanhSylavong1010]

U can't just stop once U hav started , wat were Ur intentions did they change or did the intentions grow a heart it brain lol 😂🤣

[@MrBenbenky]

Hitchens: (how little ‘we in this country’ know about ‘East of the Alps‘ sic!) You can't make an argument from ignorance both ways . If he knows little why he is in the panel? And at the same time calling for inaction as if he did not know that passiveness against aggression makes you complicit in the crime and in this case genocide. He is ignorant about the desire of the people in Eastern Europe (of which he knows little) for western style democracy, stability and peace (delivered by NATO) AND at the same indicates that ‘NATO expansion’ was supposedly against that will. But beyond any doubt he knows that said Nato expansion was against the interest of Russia. Hitchens represents the worst kind of British exceptionalism (we and other major nations sic!) are entitled to tell people beyond the Alps to shut up. Disgrace

[@ABC-ABC1234]

I am not sure if you understand English sufficiently! His main point was that the "West" never tried diplomacy, the USA was hell bent on conflict with Russia, just not by making their hands dirty... Nobody is denying you "Western style democract", what he is denying you is the fake "shock" you display when you have a neighbor right next door warning you for 2 DECADES that joining a certain military bloc would NOT be tolerated! Even USA's sweetheart Gorbachov denounced USA for its actions in Ukraine... Not sure if you're ignorant or just retarded...

[@keithsewell8389]

The great problem with what Peter Hitchens says is that he is CORRECT!

[@ThomasDanielsen1000]

No, he's not! He's a Kremlin mouthpiece!

[@Oioisaviloy]

Bravo mr Hitchins

[@Coconautify]

Why do you say this? Please see my point above regarding Russia and the prerequisite for peace.

[@faithvirtue6524]

Bravo Peter Hitchens for calling out the psychopathic warmongers in the West!

[@ThomasDanielsen1000]

What the hell are you talking about. The only warmonger here is Putin!

[@boethius9173]

The USA shouldn't have overthrown the democratically elected president of Ukraine in 2014, and the West, in general, shouldn't have gone Woke.

[@ThomasDanielsen1000]

It didn't overthrow Yanukovich - the Ukrainian people did that.

[@boethius9173]

@@ThomasDanielsen1000, The CIA did that.

[@ThomasDanielsen1000]

@@boethius9173 No, that's Kremlin propaganda. He was voted out in a vote in the Ukrainian parliament. And then the idiot fled to Russia.

[@lw1zfog]

@@ThomasDanielsen1000 fat Vicky Nuland approves your message 🤡

[@bushman143]

@@ThomasDanielsen1000 he was not voted out. He was overthrown in a violent coup with US backing, and the US propped up a puppet gov in Kiev.

[@chrisdistant9040]

Peter parrots “peace” propaganda. Except, like everyone else who does that, never gives any realistic instructive suggestions on how that should work while Putin is of the impression he can just take what he wants? Pretending that most involved governments aren’t trying to reach peace is delusional.

[@fujohnson8667]

Being pro peace is propaganda parroting? Jesus Christ, give your head a good wobble.

[@Coconautify]

Precisely. I've pointed this out on other threads.... its very easy to simply suggest peace talks should happen... by he never suggests how this might work given the present circumstances. It is annoying. Hitchens himself has said that a precondition must be the restoration of all illegally annexed Ukrainian sovereign territory - how is Russia ever going to agree to this? Answer is it won't.

[@Alphardus]

The US also thinks it can take what it wants and put its bases in all other independent and sovereign countries, but that ok right? because they are ''The Good Guys'', all hail the US, The world police.

[@sgordon8123]

You can't negotiate with everyone. Some people are beyond this approach. It seems Putin is one of these.

[@ltmund]

The Minsk accords were the negotiations. Its the West that hasn't negotiated because we don't want Putin in charge. You can not want Putin in charge and have different opinions on how best to deal with it. ie provoke him or let Russia deal with their own problems. The idea that the west can force Regime change hasn't a history of success.

[@stuartwray6175]

You can't negotiate with Ukrainian nationalism backed by a belligerent US. As Angela Merkel said: post-Maidan putsch, 2014/15, Russia could have taken Ukraine. Instead it negotiated the Minsk agreements. As Poroshenko, Merkel and Hollande have stated, Minsk was a stalling tactic; a ploy, ruse on the Ukrainian side.

[@ABC-ABC1234]

LOL as opposed to negotiate with Americans?! You either follow their leads or you get bombed or sanctioned! Oh yeah, USA is such a nice partner..

[@ThomasDanielsen1000]

@@stuartwray6175 Why did you leave out the small detail of Russia annexing Crimea and stoking a rebellion in the Donbas??? The Minsk agreements were nothing but a ceasefire to a conflict started by Russia!

[@hughwardjackson4776]

We've certainly done our best to present putin as so evil and twisted that he can't be negotiated with. It's a familiar tactic.

[@chrislonghurst2379]

Imf wns ukraine now so they are buggerd forevever. Wonder what pay off relentskey got

[@ThomasDanielsen1000]

???

[@charliecraig9919]

Different class Peter, keep on ‘schooling’ the ill informed 👍

[@ThomasDanielsen1000]

How do you school something when the only thing you offer is Kremlin propaganda?

[@Itsonlymakebelieve]

This guy Mason is so childish. His arguments are complete nonsense.

[@LeMagnum440]

Americans shouldn't have started it.

[@ThomasDanielsen1000]

It was Putin that started it ffs!

[@LeMagnum440]

@@ThomasDanielsen1000 lol, your either a bit thick or a bot.

[@LeMagnum440]

@@ThomasDanielsen1000 baaaaaa

[@ThomasDanielsen1000]

@@LeMagnum440 Ahh so you have no counter argument!

[@LeMagnum440]

@@ThomasDanielsen1000 if you dont understand by now, i cant explain at least the last 10 years of this. Sorry but you are either wilfully dim or a bot.

[@russellpickering2444]

Paul Mason all emotion no rational logical argument he's just an establishment rent boy

[@alanchriston6806]

Mason likes young children. 😊🏴‍☠️

[@andyrobinson2653]

He is an idol for all those students.

[@seanmoran2743]

Paul Mason Imperialism Abroad Open Boarders At Home

[@darrengoldwyn1917]

mason not even listening on his smart phone with his mi5 minder. lots of acting emotionallism.

[@monkerud2108]

now that's all i have to say about the opening remark, peter isn't a dumb dum, and i wouldn't say so, even if i disagree with him a lot.

[@SagaciousFrank]

​​@0neOver0neThreeSeven , 'apologist', says a lot about you. The likelihood is you were labelling people 'lockdown deniers' and other such nonsense the past two years as well.

[@johnmccaffrey5942]

Mason now a neocon.

[@ThomasDanielsen1000]

Hitchens now a Russian stooge

[@johnmccaffrey5942]

@@ThomasDanielsen1000 how can he be a Russian stooge. That’s like saying George Galloway was a stooge of Saddam Hussein. Both Hitchens and Galloway in their own ways tried to stop war being perpetrated by the Neocon War machine. Up to 1 million died in Iraq. Tens of thousands die in Ukraine and there’s no end to the bloodletting. NATO won’t accept defeat and neither will Russia. The conflict could go nuclear. I have to ask myself have people lost their collective minds. Hitch is right the same way Galloway was.

[@ThomasDanielsen1000]

@@johnmccaffrey5942 He's a Russian stooge because he CONSTANTLY makes excuses for Russia's unprovoked invasion and relieves Putin of responsibility of all the atrocities he has committed in Ukraine! Are you really so thick that you can't see the difference between being against a war the was started by the US and not supporting Ukraine in its existential struggle fighting off an inhumane invasion?

[@oldschoolcockneylover8138]

Ukraine is soverign it has a right to join any alliance it wishes including NATO. It doesn’t give Russia a right to invade

[@monkerud2108]

yeah dissent should be allowed, but pronunciation is a matter of inefficiency maybe, but the moment you know what is being mispronounced its not a huge deal is it. when it comes to understanding the word apologist, that's a matter for discussion in each context, and the validity of the term when it comes to an individual argument is also a matter of argument, the sincerity of the argument is a different argument to be had, which is an argument about an individual not an individual argument.

[@Maelli535]

Strange to agree for once with Paul Mason.

[@MultiWalrus1]

Paul Mason hits the nail on the head. This is about how people want to live and what their socio-political destinies will be. And the people of Ukraine do not want to live in the shadow of the Kremlin. That is why they are fighting.

[@a70770]

We need to support Ukraine. If you believe it is not our place, you are mistaken. Russia can not have more borders with nato countries, which threatens not only those countries but every country in the alliance.

[@_-martin-_]

This is the first time I have seen Peter Hitchens stand up with some courage and express what his brother would have said, albeit in a much softer tone. Christopher Hitchens would have called out strongly and concisely the hypocrisy of the west and the war crimes of the US leading this proxy war against Russia down to the blood of the last Ukrainian!

[@Screaming-Trees]

But Christopher didn't do that when it came to Iraq in 2003 did he? Even Gore Vidal had a falling out with the guy over it. Also, Peter's been calling this out for a year now. If this is the first time you've seen him do it you're behind a little. He's been doing it a while now. Even a cursory KZbin search will reveal that.

[@MattSingh1]

@@Screaming-Trees *Actually, Christopher DID do that- one of the central reasons he held for advocating the 2003 liberation of Iraq was past Western support for the Ba'ath Party- the 2003 liberation of Iraq was a total reversal of policy for the UK and US who had in the past supported and armed Saddam Hussein.*

[@Screaming-Trees]

@@MattSingh1 Yeah he was in favour of us invading a country under totally false pretenses. He spoke out in favour at the time.

[@ABC-ABC1234]

@@MattSingh1 You need to shut up! History has already judged the Iraq war to be one started under COMPLETE FALSE REASONS! Had the reason been; "We created this monster Saddam Hussein and armed him and now we need to get rid of his horrible regime in an attempt to correct a mistake" this could have gone down a different manner! All this WMD's and fake support for Al Qaeda, is exactly why people call Bush and Blair war criminals!

[@commonmann3549]

I AM a Putin apologist. He knows the difference between a boy and a girl, and he is a head of state. Putin is my president.

[@ThomasDanielsen1000]

He's also a psychopathic mass murderer...

[@chrisdistant9040]

The US is so brilliant at geopolitics that they convinced another nuclear power to attack one of their allies, just so they would weaken themselves. Brilliant! It’s just like that time when the US coaxed nazi germany to invade half of Europe just so that they could step in as heroes to save the day!

[@CHIEF_420]

🧂

[@svenhanson398]

I am curios, in what way did US coax Nazi Germany to invade half of Europe. That's a first I have heard that. Could you direct me to some link on that. I know they did business via Switzerland during most of the war, against their own law that forbid it. IBM, Ford etc, and also leading money to the nazi regime all through the war. But this what you mentioned I have never come across.

[@pindrop.]

I think that's the point. Of course, you strawman it, but nevertheless. The US has shown itself to be dangerously inept in regard to foreign policy. They were so desperate to remain the world's hegemon that they recklessly ignored how Russia viewed NATO expansion and pushed ahead regardless. And where has it got us? Ukraine will be devastated after this is finished, the German manufacturing industry will face serious problems without cheap Russian gas, and the EU will face serious problems if Germany can no longer bank roll it. Relations between the West and Russia are unlikely to be on good terms in our lifetimes. So Europe will be left with an antagonistic neighbour who happens to be one of the most heavily armed nations on the planet. Given that we will no longer be friends, who will Russia trade with? The BRICS nations, most notably the USs main competitor, China. All the US has managed to do by attempting to walk NATO to Russia's border is provoke Russia into destroying Ukraine, weaken its supposed ally Europe, and strengthen the bonds between its two greatest competitors. This is madness.

[@Coconautify]

@@pindrop. How is it that US 'pushed ahead'? NATO is a defensive arrangement with 31 member countries. The idea that the US unilaterally sets the agenda for Turkey, France, Italy and all the others is laughable. Why is it that you cannot see any other perspective? Here's an idea, read Putin's own writings on Russian Imperialism and how he views Ukraine (hint: he doesn't view it as a sovereign entity). This is the counterpoint to your argument about the US being behind all this 'skullduggery"... stop apologising for Putin's clearly illegal, brutal and murderous invasion of Ukraine. Putin's Russia is not a friend to the West, and means to undermine its democratic institutions any chance it gets. We need to help Ukraine.

[@Alphardus]

@@pindrop. Shhh, you mustn't portray the US as anything but the good guys.

[@TheGarrymoore]

Hitchens is very correct!

[@ToCoSo]

Why shouldnt every country in the world be part of NATO, invading another country isnt peaceful, Russia is the aggressor, his view is about fear mongering and I feel that we have the right to defend any country from an invasion, even a US invasion.

[@ToCoSo]

@@JustinWeeces Russia was always going to take Ukraine as if it wants to be a real military threat it needs to protect Moscow. And the gap in the mountains between Ukraine and Moscow means you can roll tanks into red square in a few hours. Putin needs to take Ukraine, letting him take it will bolster his defence. Keeping Ukraine independent means Moscow is vulnerable and stops Russia being so aggressive. It has nothing to do with NATO he is using that as a threat but he just wants the mountain pass safe.

[@ToCoSo]

@S N yes invasion of any country should be policed by all the other nations, and sanctions etc used, Syria has been forgotten by the West it is another catastrophe that should never have happened.

[@SagaciousFrank]

​​@@ToCoSo , invasion of Iraq by America with the support of Great Britain? 🙄 Ah wait, but that was okay because the Yanks did it and Saddam was a bad man, who the Americans help put there in the first place. You need to learn some history. NATO was devised as a containment of the Soviet threat during the Cold War era. The Soviet Union ended in 1991, and even George Kennan, considered one of the USA's greatest statesman of the 20th Century - the very man who was at the heart of Soviet containment policy - said in the late nineties that the expansion of NATO in Eastern Europe up to Russia borders would cause another conflict and war with Russia. Find the article, read it, it's like prophecy.

[@ToCoSo]

@@SagaciousFrank yes I disagreed greatly with the Iraq and Afghanistan wars that why I said, even US led ones. A million of is marched to London we should have smashed the place up, only way to make politicians listen nowadays.

[@bigmac786]

@@ToCoSo Please do some more reading into this conflict, your missing the mark here and appear to consume too much CNN or some other western propaganda. What MSM is telling you is one-sided, ask yourself why no other continent other than NA, or EU is funding or supporting this "invasion"? It's because they don't have western interests and see this conflict for what it is, a proxy war to retain US hegemony. This is not about Ukraine, but more to do with weaking the Russian economy, and oppressing western nations, specifically Germany.

[@CHIEF_420]

NO. 🇰🇪🤝🇮🇳🤝🇨🇳🤝🇷🇺

[@peterdamen2161]

Hitchens clearly doesn't get it! Mason clearly does. Period!

[@adriftinaboat3452]

Mason should go and fight and take his kids with him-but he won’t

[@stuartwray6175]

Mason is a delusional warmonger.

[@Oioisaviloy]

Period?? Oh how I hate when people use that hideous cheap word

[@ABC-ABC1234]

If you feel so passionate about Ukraine, and if you're under the delusion that what happens in Ukraine affects Britain, you should go and fight for it! Go ahead, be my guest. Period!

[@peterdamen2161]

@@ABC-ABC1234 No delusion at all. You're delusional since apparently you don't get it. It is very good that we give all kind of weapons to Ukraine, so that Russia is bound to lose. That's the only option!

[@anothersucker-Youcantfixstupid]

Peter always sides with the aggressors and despots.

[@adriftinaboat3452]

How many countries have the US dropped bombs on since the end of WWII. Let me guess……

[@stuartwray6175]

Ukraine descended into civil war following the violent putsch of 2014. Russia warned this might happen in 2008. Angela Merkel said that Russia could have taken Ukraine in 2014/15. Instead, Russia sought a diplomatic settlement outlined in Minsk; and though 14.000 people were killed in donbas, Russia held back from recognising the aspirations of separatists. We now know thanks to Poroshenko, Merkel and Hollande that Minsk was a ruse, ploy, stalling tactic by Ukraine and its western backers.

[@ThomasDanielsen1000]

@@stuartwray6175 No, Ukraine descended into a civil war in the east, when Russia backed a rebellion in the Donbas! Russia did not seek a diplomatic settlement with the Minsk agreement, it sought a way to meddle in Ukraine's internal affairs, and that's why Merkel and co didn't believe it to be a lasting peace deal. And just ask yourself: if Russia was serious about peace in Ukraine, why did it continue to send paramilitary groups into Ukraine after the Minsk agreements were signed?

[@hughwardjackson4776]

​@@ThomasDanielsen1000 it was supporting the rebels in the east, as we were supporting the coup regime in the west.

[@ThomasDanielsen1000]

@@hughwardjackson4776 There's no moral comparison between encouraging a peaceful protest against a corrupt and criminal regime and stoking a violent rebellion in another country.