Should tournaments ban 21? [DBFZ]

What do you think about this subject? Should Lab Coat 21 and other top tier characters be banned at FGC events?
/ tyrant_uk
#DBZ #DBFZ #Gaming
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[@CJWHEY]

This channel is soo underrated🔥

[@FrameAdvantage]

Thank you bro. Appreciate the kind words!

[@odisclemons9700]

I agree that they've done a good job at balancing. I think 21 was purposely unbalanced so the could sell her. Period.

[@jjtjp2469]

I mean it does feel like no consideration went into how LC 21 was balanced before throwing her into FighterZ. However, my thing is it would be one thing if she was running rampant for quite some time, but she hasn't even been out a whole month yet. That's not really enough time for a community to possibly adapt and find counterplay to justify a ban. As broken as vanilla BBCP Kokonoe and Smash 4 Bayonetta was, they still had to run wild for a bit before we started seeing bans for them

[@rodimusprime8616]

McBenedict, the homie!! We look out of each others scenes so fiercely. i thank Benedict a lot cause i couldn't get my online scene noticed in the DBFZ World Tour w/o him and vice-versa. we look out for each other. i support his decision because its what he did for his scene at the time. Even tho he reversed his decision soon after. Every TO has a different pov to success in their lanes on the same game. i'll be the 2nd TO to dbfz to tackle this issue [prolly the only online TO atm] i'd like to attempt to offer to this issue instead of letting it rock for the viewership. The video game activist in me is not looking back, I'm going straight into this. i have pro /pro-level players that come thro my online tourney scene occassionally, the Iacon Battle Circuit. I'm going a couple ways with this initiative. My stance is to let her play, i don't want her banned, but there is a problem yet to see a solution fully. 1. I created both a poll and a proposition yesterday to dbfz and the labcoat hashtag. the poll, for starters, was regarding how my players felt in wanting me to ban LC21 from continued iacons. Next ~the proposition there after was to those saying she's not good yet don't understand why people see a ban option to tourney use. Just that, the pending 'carrying' aspect lets say, its not like we're banning her overall. people "she's not good", "she's not broken" The proposition was to explain why she's not good. why she's garbage. On dustloop and other sites around game frame data, there's nothing supporting the ideas of cons against the character. only pro aspects, no cons. ppl duck this answer a lot rn and its not surprising. the community can defend her all they want, but know this: A16, Bardock, KBuu, GT Goku, Ui ~while trouble characters at various points across the meta~ all have viable or logical weaknesses to their character design that allow people to challenge or respond normally in some, shape, or form. so its fair game to not abuse tech with logical consequence. Those other characters had discovered weaknesses little by little as their play unraveled, no matter how they were before a patch. She none discovered yet, still since character launch at Feb. 24th. almost 2 months in and no one's found anything yet still, between Console or PC. all the tech heads have nothing viable or factual (yet). i challenge the "peanut gallery" lets say lol to present counter-claim on twitter or Instagram or reddit or some media outlet. Maybe a weakness is something that a trained or experienced eye cannot spot? you never know right. If anyone can do that then they can help the lab tech heads figure that out to get something started, and people will slowly stop riding her on bans or exclusion. i promise you. 2. in the early programs i occasionally did a ban program here or there experimenting new ideas others didn't do or explore, were i had a randomizer select 6 characters [all characters were numbered #1 - #42] and said picks weren't played that program. then the next program i didn't run a ban. Then, after that, i ran another separate 6 to that next iacon. It was something i did for fun so we all could play outside our comfort zones in competition and try other teams we luved using aside from our main teams or what always wins. Giving birth to creativity since something you had on the side is now put in a spotlight. i'll reintroduce that to the new era iacon players now that there's enough ppl to potentially cycle this back and forth more actively. This is temporary still, lets say several events coming. So just like back in 2020, one program would be a normal tourney. the one after that would be a ban tourney. i think instead of 6 characters, i'd do 4 this time around. smoother process so its not just the 1 character, there would be others along with her each program. its a thought, maybe a waste a time possibly but i also want to look at applying that road as an idea to benefit ~maybe even educate~ rather than restrict. fingers crossed, brother T.👌🏾🍹

[@foreverfirebird5712]

I think she should at least have some time before she is possibly banned. But they clearly made her as broken as possible on purpose, which they've never done before even if characters they made ended up too strong. Why should we try to learn to play around her long term when ArcSys didn't even try to balance her? But if we do ban her maybe it should be a soft ban. Like a point system, or you can only use her if you lose a game, or if you play her you can't use any of the other generally agreed top 5(Vegito, Gogeta 4, Majin 21, Z Broly).

[@mrmysterycake]

For casual play, LabCoat 21 is okay, but for tournament format, 21 just nullifies any comeback potential for anchor characters. They banned Meta Knight and Beyonetta after so many tournaments because they proved to be broken. LabCoat 21 hasn't been proven yet, but she was released broken so what do people expect?

[@MidnaFeetEnjoyer]

7:41 yeah make it 7% that stacks to 21%, or make it 21% that LASTS 21 seconds, and the duration timer doesn't stop if the character tags out. It's okay to have overpowered moves as long as overall the character isn't broken, but 21 is very strong and practically doesn't have any seeming weaknesses. Or at least make it so that it doesn't do any damage. The fact that you can do the nerf from ANY punish and it's a hard to react to as a command grab, which is a reversal BTW, and that it also does decent damage.. like, I can't keep denying that's too strong.

[@randaljr.8581]

maybe not yet, but if she’s completely meta-centralizing after a patch (or there is no patch), i think its worth considering. i’d give it a few months. but that attack really needs to be reworked imo

[@andrewgrime8389]

I do think that they are going to announce something at EVO this year. If that's the case then it's only like 5 months and we are already almost halfway through March. GT Goku was released back in May of 2019 and we had to wait for 10 MONTHS for them to announce something. And there's always a possibility that they announce something in between now and Evo. The biggest problem is that Bandai Namco doesn't communicate with their community at all. And it isn't a FighterZ-only issue, but with games like Tekken 7 as well. Hopefully hiring Romanova as a community manager will change things up. The fg division of Bamco is seriously lacking behind the competition and it's confusing given the fact that their fighting games sell extremely well. Have a nice day!

[@izder]

Do you expect a patch before EVO?

[@SuperCozzmic]

Imagine EVO just around the corner and your latest character banned from the tourney. Wouldn’t look good for Bandai Namco! Maybe then they would actually listen to us. We’ve wanted new stages We’ve wanted new uniforms We’ve wanted characters we know and love We’ve wanted ROLLBACK We’ve wanted SIMPLE COMMUNICATION It’s about time the community takes a stand.

[@lautarolynn8834]

Right now I don't want her banned but if the world finals and Evo come and there's no news of patch, dlc, nothing, then I won't have any problem with it. Because if it looks like ArcSys will have abandoned the game, I can't blame tournament organizers for not wanting their tournament to be just Lab Coat everywhere.

[@Kuroppey]

I agree %100. Banning is not the way to go. Besides I personally hate the character, but I don't think she's that broken apart from the debuff. If they nerfed the command grab I think she would be pretty good as a character. Hopefully the nerf comes soon and not on December, because if that happens she will become toxic like the TO said. IT'S ONLY BEEN OUT FOR 2-3 WEEKS PEOPLE STOP OVERREACTING

[@rockinrom1524]

16 had free hard knockdowns. we were literally counting bardock lvl 3s every major. gt had double lvl 3 and 4 way mix. UI played hop scotch over our heads. we let a lot things rock. 21 lvl 1 isn't fun to play against but neither was the other stuff we had to deal with in the past. everyone had meta they had to slog through for a while.

[@megadude5662]

Its kinda silly to consider banning lab voat when the fusions are clearly more "broken" looking at the character overall. The command grab probably should be nerfed to remove the invul and prob make it it a hit instead of a command grab.

[@Chanse1989]

Remember in S2 when people said "ban GT" and they didn't? Same thing here, and still sounds just as scrubby.

[@foreverfirebird5712]

GT wasn't even half as OP in S2.

[@Chanse1989]

@@foreverfirebird5712 listen, if you weren't playing in S2, don't make dumb comments bro.

[@ThatWolfArrow]

At the most, we can run ratio tournaments like Marvel 2 and 3 do, but I feel flat bans are too much.

[@NutterButter774]

I think when it's at the point where NOT playing the character puts you at disadvantage competitively then yes they need to be banned. We have no confirmation from the devs that were are getting a new patch so I wouldnt bite my tongue

[@Argumemnon]

Not anymore than they should have banned GT or UI. As often the DLC character's a bit overpowered. They'll patch her at some point.

[@Naruyami4]

Bruh imagine they give her the base Vegeta treatment and nerf the invulnerability frames

[@Livicentt]

She controls the pace of the game extremely well which is why I enjoy playing her so much, but I admit I find myself avoiding situations which I know would work so the opponent has fun aswell. I dont agree with the debuff mechanic as it lowkey steals the fun of a character but if the level 1 grab needed some sort of set up I think the character would be fine tbh. Also tyrant u the 🐐

[@Argumemnon]

Yeah, removing the buff/nerf effect of her super would still leave that super pretty good. Or make it cost 2 to get the buff/nerf...

[@Livicentt]

@@Argumemnon facts

[@moonboy2k185]

Or maybe dont ban her but ban this move

[@DonQuixe]

I agree 100% that banning characters is not the way to go.. it's not going to be good for the game ironically.. in the long run

[@shaynekerry]

Her grab and her 236H are the most busted things about her, so nerfing just though 2 moves would be the best for her because the 236H shouldn't go full screen and hit behind at all like that just stupid, and her grab should be more punishable and shouldn't cause a debuff affect at all but she can keep her buff though I'm fine with that.

[@raidenjeskar2823]

Her 236 lariat is perfectly fine it makes up for all that with how fucking slow it starts up. And even on the ground you can 2H the move on reaction from not just full screen but around half screen. It's fine the way it is. Strong but with a glaring weakness of always being airborne

[@raidenjeskar2823]

Her Grab however is hands down the worst thing this game has ever implemented. And all they had to do was not give it frame 4 invul and make it like Baby's Alt level 3 where you cant directly cancel into it or where it can't combo off sliding knockdown

[@NeothaAndMiano]

@@raidenjeskar2823 It's 19f-21f midscreen. 2H is an anti-air starting frame 4. This means you have 15f to react and press 2H, or else it smokes you and you're eating that medium starter damage. You're not 2Hing it on reaction, amigo.

[@DarkOrderSolDjango]

Well your answer can be easily responded to when you checl how Leroy from Tekken 7 broke the game, he was just too good to pass even in tournaments. In your same tweet if you say "I won't play you if you use lab21" you'll have people cry about that because they want to play her because she is above everything, as an excuse they'll tell you to get better at the game but they are the one compensating with lab21. So right now she is too broken and in tournaments if pro players have the time to fully lab her they will use her, just like how they did with Leroy.........

[@Rationalist101]

No

[@YouAlreadyKnowBabi]

Mans said Dark Virgil LOL

[@Joshua-yc9cv]

This has nothing to do with DBFZ but Leroy Smith, from Tekken 7 before he got nerfed, deserved to be banned, in my opinion.

[@kaeltxwz]

by this idiotic logic UI and GT should have been banned before the nerfs. maybe her debuff should use 2 or 3 bars and/or only work on 1 character at any time, if you use on another character the previous one is back to normal.

[@raidenjeskar2823]

She needs to be banned bro. I look forward to 3 months from now when you flashback to this and realize what a fool u were

[@MetaGamingDojo]

Nah, 21 isn't too bad. The people complaining just doesn't know how to play the game...yeah🤷‍♂️

[@foreverfirebird5712]

That's not true at all. She's definitely the most broken char we've had post season 1.

[@MetaGamingDojo]

@@foreverfirebird5712 prove it. Labcoat 21 is pretty useless against the frieza raid boss too(compared to ssj4 goatgeta).

[@morales1190]

She wouldn't be so bad if it was for the debuff cheapness.

[@2001coolchemist]

Not that I support a ban, but we do need some sort of a patch. As a casual gamer, I got tired of how many solitaire teams of Gogeta blue and vegito blue (and many times both) I end up facing. And now add to that the lab coat, but you can tell which trio of characters are my most hated to face (and so many times I end up facing a team of all three).

[@raidenjeskar2823]

Y'all are so traumatized by Yasha u rly think gogeta and vegito is that good lol

[@raidenjeskar2823]

Hate to burst your bubble but a lot of children play these games and they gonna play the cool new characters it's just how it be

[@2001coolchemist]

@@raidenjeskar2823 They are good, but that's not what I hate. I hate the fact that every one of their touches is a long combo where I'm watching my opponent play solitaire, especially when both are in the same team and can tag into each other's combos. And more than half the teams I face have at least one of them if not both.

[@raidenjeskar2823]

@@2001coolchemist that sounds more like a personal issue with not wanting to sit through an opponents combo tbh or like your just upset you got hit or just not liking Dbfz combo structure. Has nothing to do with the characters themselves. I know it's easy to complain but there is genuinely nothing to complain about

[@TaigaGalette]

i dont agree on banning anything unless it blatantly breaks the game 21 is just a strong character

[@Brolythegodbreaker]

I think 21 is a bit op but she's not an Instant win so I wouldn't ban her

[@ICA_Ghost]

seriously this makes me so mad.... WHY DO THEY JUST REFUSE TO UPDATE THIS GAME??look at how many ppl still play this game and how the devs dont a a damn about it. can start we just start a riot or something??

[@Jt-vm8ks]

Ban double fusion teams if we really talking bout pace controlling teams lol

[@raidenjeskar2823]

Complaining abt Fusion characters? Certified Bad at the game

[@microblast3700]

They made her broken to sell her

[@TehDompie]

Just don't get grabbed bro

[@ace8303]

You guys went though gt genki oki for 6 months in season 2 but it hasn't been a month and you guys are begging for a ban? That's goofy, and even if she's banned you'll just go back to whining about fusions anyway, you can't win with these people.

[@AdreanStyles09]

I don’t think she should be banned tbh.

[@terrakage4462]

Just ban the use of debuff! She has 2 level ones!

[@sogeking1452]

Gotta be done

[@moonboy2k185]

To the title question, yes. She breaks the game to the point it isnt fun. UNLESS, shes in your team too so it kinda balances it out

[@dajuanmoten4566]

That or unless you build your team around getting nerfed for what ever reason

[@moonboy2k185]

@@dajuanmoten4566 then you have to play captain ginyu to cover yourself and guve the opponent a nerfed x2 character and treat yourself with 2 android 21’s

[@scarnovak5298]

A lot of the cast being used you say ? So Fusions , A21 and Brolys is the entire cast, gotcha. Also every character is viable ? This character is so bad you probably even forgot him. Yamcha.

[@raidenjeskar2823]

Certified Bad at the game

[@melkor1177]

Yes