Should Traditional Pickleball Serve be Removed?

[@MaximumLagGolf]

It makes sense to simplify the rules and go to a drop serve. I don't use a drop serve but it's easy to learn.

[@athomeandtravel995]

Yup! Mandatory drop serve fixes everything. No confusion. Drop it and hit it. Ba da bing, ba da boom!

[@dpeatebc7265]

In clesely looking at McGuffin's serve, it's clear he is using an upward arch because the paddle ends up above his head. He's imparting a lot of topspin. He's not hitting the ball above his waist, he's hitting it at his waist, which is elevated because he is jumping a little as he hits the ball. It's pretty much the same with Jorga Johnson, although her swing is a little more level. It looks to me that she is hitting the ball at hip height, which is a little higher in her case because she's long-legged or, to put it another way, high-waisted. I think Joey is brewing up a tempest in a teapot here. There is no problem. Nearly all the pros hit with a lot of top spin which creates the arch from low to high and I don't see any of them hitting it above the waist, although some may hit it at the waist.

[@trapperjdbia8205]

I am all for it, I prefer the drop serve. I played in a tournament this weekend and two 4.0+ players managed to screw up the drop serve by tossing the ball upward slightly and also adding some spin, but it is easy to call.👍🏻

[@rbflapjackful]

Totally agree! I've been saying this for the past year. Drop Serve = Easy to Officiate = No Controversy. Also, super easy to teach.

[@jonathonskinkle5030]

I've said this as well. I think the drop serve eliminates the problem with illegal volley serves. I know in rec play I see so many illegal serves because people want to impart so much spin on the ball, but they don't realize it makes it illegal as their contact point goes above the waist or their paddle is up past their wrist. I don't say anything because they don't throw me or cause me to miss my return but I have partners that this spin really gets them.

[@rjsophia3712]

I agree. I love the drop serve!!!

[@MartyNES1]

I'm all for it, honestly. I've been experimenting with the drop serve a lot recently and it's incredibly versatile. Simplifying the rules would be great. So many people get sooooo confused over all the rules the serve is probably the one thing I'm always correcting people on. Some people do a questionable almost side arm serve and without watching it in slow motion from different angles how are you supposed to call it? Then the drop serve is usually considered something only beginners do and believe it or not a lot of people don't even know the full rules for it either. Had someone argue with me because I did a tricky slice drop serve which is perfectly legal. Time to simplify and make sure everyone is on the same page.

[@billkennedy401]

Joey - what you said illustrates why the serve is unenforceable. The Rule says upward arc _ you said upward motion (which is what McMuffin's serve is. The problem is that an upward arc is an upward motion but an upward motion isn't necessarily an upward arc. In 'circle' terms, McTuffy's service is a chord in an upward direction. Dump the volley serve and close the loopholes for the drop serve!

[@InterCityProductions]

Agree 100%. So simple, bounce only; easy for the volunteer referees.

[@FieAction]

Drop serve becoming the only serve and we can take away all the grey areas of the traditional serve. Saves the umpire another needless headache anyway~

[@mikesimone1]

I never really thought about this. I have practiced my serves a lot and they are pretty good--if I say so myself (Kudos to my pro friend Kim Kesner for tips). But for the good of the game I must agree a simple drop serve makes sense--as we all see people play whose serves are probably illegal. Probably not bad for my brain to practice drop serves with a goal to make them as good as what I have now.

[@CharlottePickleball]

I especially ENCOURAGE THE DROP SERVE to all beginners, because it's easier to do, less rules to think about and it's they're simultaneously practicing a groundstroke and hitting out front.

[@CharlottePickleball]

I use my serve as a weapon. Not quite as many as volley serves.... but I can still hit winners off of my drop serves, too.

[@dpeatebc7265]

I disagree. More things can go wrong. The ball can bounce differently, the wind can move it. I like the uniformity of the traditional serve. There is a reason that most of the top pros use it and I think it has to do with consistency. I’ve coached a few beginners, and I counsel them to use the traditional serve

[@posttension9815]

I agree. Drop serve should be the only legal serve. The serve contact point of Tyson and Ben is questionable.

[@spelunkerd]

If the goal is to reduce controversy, there's a lack of understanding of human nature. People will argue about other things. Instead I would allow things that make the game more interesting to watch, which will lead to more advertising revenue at the pro level and more interesting rallies. Allowing variance of serving style is a way of doing that! At a minimum it will reduce complaints regarding how boring it is to watch long dinking competitions. In any case, in the pro game, how often does a receiving player fail to get the serve back? Do they really need more help to make the game less interesting?

[@patrickderyan7403]

You know, Joey - in an undisclosed number of your videos, I have cussed, spit, yelled, thrown things, kicked the dog, tried to kick the cat. and so on... BUT, I must say, you are spot-on correct with this one! One potential problem is short players claiming that tall players will have an advantage with a higher bounce due to dropping the ball from a higher point.

[@mikesimone1]

But is it really any more of an advantage the tall players currently have with a traditional serve? Their waist is higher and the contact point is still higher--giving them an advantage. Seems to me to be the same advantage with a drop serve.

[@patrickderyan7403]

@@mikesimone1 Agree. But they will still complain...🤣

[@mikesimone1]

@@patrickderyan7403 Absolutely!

[@timgeary6110]

A couple opponents I played against recently thought I was hiding the ball bc they couldn’t hit my serve. So I went to the drop serve. Guess what! They still couldn’t hit my serve. 😂

[@gfelsmanphotos]

The highest point of the paddle must be below the bending part of the wrist per the rules when the ball is struck. This clearly makes many of the pro serves potentially illegal. McGuffin, and Ignatowhich serves come to mind, yes there are others too. You have to have the wrist tilted downward when striking the ball to meet the rules as specified. You can still put plenty of spin on the ball when serving. But don't kill the volley serve it works great and you can a very powerful serve if you so choose.

[@timlarson7351]

Jorja Johnson has been serving illegally too. Her paddle is above her wrist and she swings across the ball every time. The drop serve seems boring but I think you are correct. Drop it and do whatevr you want. We will probably have to drop it with an open hand like table tennis too. Eesh. What's next? Still a solid argument, Joey!

[@taurusgump]

I wouldn't mind this for myself. It's very hard to verify, even when I'm watching my partner's serve up close! There is so much gray area in each of the 3 areas of the rules. But removing the volley serve could be detrimental to wheelchair players. Depending on their physiology or chairs, it can be hard to release the ball legally and get it where it needs to go. Now, obviously, anyone playing at a tournament level could adapt well enough, and we could just ignore the volley serve ban for rec players. But I just wanted to point this out (because I help with an adaptive sports program whose pickleball program is HOT.)

[@rogerdavis5225]

In Table Tennis, the service rules for those persons are different. Pickleball could do the same.

[@michaelpoindexter8886]

Good idea but it would take some skill variation out of the serve options. The USAPA needs to adopt the system used in professional badminton. There was a limitation to serving below the waist in badminton until a player started to push the limit. It caused the World Badminton Federation to enact a measured height requirement of 1.15 meters that the serve must be under. The height is judged by an official looking through a gauge on the sideline. Of course that would mean pickleball tournament umpires would have to be hired and trained. Perhaps that is too much to expect professional pickleball to handle at this point. Especially considering that there aren't yet even any line judges like those in professional badminton. Until then, I think requiring the drop serve only is a good idea. I developed what I call the Drop Squat Serve that I've used ever since I learned that the drop serve excludes all the other serve requirements. I hold the ball up as high as I can on my outstretched arm while standing on my toes. I release the ball and follow it down while squatting as low as I can in order to hit it in a sideways motion above my waist with the paddle head above my wrist. It works. Try it and have a good day!

[@PembrokeAnimal]

Agree! I use a volley serve but I am perfectly capable of switching to the drop serve and maybe adding a slice serve to my repertoire!

[@evanc1974]

Good idea Joey. If they are going to change the rule in 2024, give players at least 3 months or more to practice it.

[@ThePickleballPirates]

See rules.usapickleball.org/entry/872/

[@offthefront7537]

Agree 100%. Seems like a no brainer.

[@ralphparker]

You need a high speed camera to truly evaluate those serves. I'm for the requirement of a serve to be: Hit underhanded motion and have an arc that peaks at least at 6 ft. This would pretty much eliminate ace serves in pickleball and force the strategies to be around the foregoing play.

[@lucyli1742]

Pickleball serve speed is not that fast compare to Tennis… PPA should allow any type of serves, to make the pro level competition harder… other professional sports usually take years and years of trainings, today’s Pickleball pro can win championship within 1-2 years play…

[@markdoehrman5134]

Do you think it should be the same for singles also? I'm not sure. I do traditional serve,though I'm flexible on either one. Does not bother me either way.

[@ThePickleballPirates]

It is as unenforceable in singles as in doubles

[@rogerdavis5225]

Of course it should apply to singles, also.

[@STEVEBOZIC]

Joey! Love you man. Not sure why you were confused about whether or not the drop serve legal to use in all PB tourney’s. LOL. You using a drop serve in Mixed Pro at the PPA Daytona last week was perfectly legal! Lol

[@swjohnson111]

I agree. 😊

[@ECLOVELY]

Don’t ban it. Come up with a new way to monitor it. Some of us need an aggressive serve. It adds to the dynamic of the game. It’s cool and fun. That’s my opinion. Just crack down on it more with high quality slow mo cameras. Send notices to players etc. During matches. Allow challenges to occur etc. From the opposing player. Don’t ban the aggressive serve. My opinion. High quality slow mo cameras for the win.

[@bobford6702]

Anything to limit the arguing on the court about the rules?

[@ScottLive1]

I cured my yips when volley serving switched to a drop serve now all good

[@timsherfey2986]

I wish only the drop serve were allowed. Too many people cheat with the traditional serve!

[@briannorman6999]

Do both feet have to be on the ground when you serve? Looks like Tyson jumps a bit. Just wondering.

[@downwinder3]

read the rule. it's not long or complicated

[@briannorman6999]

@@downwinder3 Yup, I was correct in my musing. At least one foot must remain on the ground. I think Tyson jumps. What do you think, my Downwinder friend?

[@bobabraham5060]

Totally agree I see so many borderline illegal serves as the power game has become more common. The traditional serve should join the chainsaw serve in the dust bin.

[@itmaslanka]

I think they violate the head must be below the handle ! I like the regular serve , more power .

[@orderkaos]

Hi. I may disagree - siding with another person here who suggests choosing the path that benefits the popularity of the sport. Controversy is what gave rise to UFC for instance. What’s the problem with this serve even if it may “violate” rules because our belly buttons are in different places in regards to our waist? I could see why they did ban the chainsaw and other enhanced spin serves, but what is the actual issue with this one?

[@ThePickleballPirates]

rules are impossible to enforce

[@mikesimone1]

I knew a woman who got a tummy tuck and she was without a belly button for several months. I can see it now--plastic surgeons in Cancun with a cash based revenue stream of snowbird pickleball players moving their belly buttons up with courts just outside the resort.

[@baodinhnguyen6814]

The ball in PKB bounce too little for nice drop serves. It's ok in paddle

[@ThePickleballPirates]

you meant padel, did not you? The serve in pickleball is not supposed to be a weapon by the game design.

[@brandonnielsen]

padel is not pickleball just like rugby is not American Football. If you want the drop serve start playing the game of padel. Leave the serve alone and learn how to return a power serve and a drop serve. Both are effective and both should be used.

[@ThePickleballPirates]

it is not about returning the serve. It is about rules being rules and not just suggestions. The current volley serve rules are non-enforceable.

[@walterbrundidge]

Here's another rule change. The return of serve can't land in the kitchen. The serving team is basically locked at the baseline waiting for the return. It would stop a lot of injuries from people having to charge forward on a dink return.

[@MajorBrev]

Amen!

[@Thesingndance]

You make a good point………and you made me laugh!

[@dpeatebc7265]

It's not going to happen and its stupid to argue for banning the traditional serve. Most of the pros use it and I don't see any of them arguing to have it banned. The idea that you will force most of the pros to go to a serve that is completely unnatural for them is ridiculous. How many of the pros have a problem returning McGuffin's serve? None that I've seen. And Johns' serve. which often is difficult to return, is clearly legal under the rules.

[@ThePickleballPirates]

it's not about serve return. It's more about rules enforcing.

[@dpeatebc7265]

@@ThePickleballPirates rules in every sport are constantly being taken to the limit. The serves in question don’t look illegal to me according to the wording of the rules. they may be close to being violations, but I don’t think they are. I think it’s highly unlikely that the pros are going to allow the rule to be changed to a drop serve only. I really don’t see how it’s going to improve the game at all and if it’s not about the difficulty of returning, serve, why even bother discussing the issue if you think drop serves can be as effective as serves that are not dropped, what’s the problem?

[@lucyli1742]

Pickle serving Rule should be lifted… the pro tennis serve is much harder, players who hit more aces have better chances to win… not too many people complain tennis serving rule.

[@ThePickleballPirates]

any rule must be enforceable. Otherwise it is not a rule, but suggestion. So it has to be changed somehow.

[@dpeatebc7265]

@@ThePickleballPirates I disagree, Joey. The rule exists to ensure that people are serving underhanded. As long as it is going up, i.e. from low to high, it's in the spirit of the rules. The only example you cite is McGuffin and his serve motion is clearly going up. It looks to me that he is hitting it waist high, The rule exists because they don't want people serving overhanded. You are trying to impose a solution that is looking for a problem. If there is a rule change, the pros are going to hate it. They've been developing their serves under the rules for years. So have I. I've got a serve that looks a little like Ben Johns'. It's effective and it sometimes results in an ace. The server is already at a disadvantage because they have to let the return ball bounce, so it's good if an occasional ace or offensively advantageous serve happens. As long as people are serving underhanded, the rule is effective. I'd be interested in you listing all the pros you think are violating the rules. I don't think McGuffin is. I don't think Jorga Johnson is either.

[@cwarner5909]

No way, I seldom use the drop server but I have tried and experimented with it in practice. It is unpredictable especially playing outdoors, to much air time.

[@thepeoplemender2269]

No way. Loosen up the rules for traditional serve.

[@zentrader1734]

Tysons serve is harmless. What about Dekel? His serve is ridiculous.

[@wallymann]

Just drop it. It's not that complicated. Really

[@schultzmeier1]

Why serve at all? Just have the ref toss the ball into play. Then have everyone spell P.I.C.K.L.E. why rallying back and forth before anyone can hit an aggressive shot so both teams can establish themselves at the kitchen fairly... Seriously, it's one thing to want something like the spin serve banned, because arguably the player isn't really using athleticism to create an advantage with that serve. Banning the traditional serve because some people can hit it more aggressively than others tho? That's soft. Also, to the padel point, the instructor clearly stated that the ball bounces or can be bounced (something we can't do with a pickleball drop serve) to waste height, meaning they can aggressively serve from pretty much the same contact point as a traditional serve.

[@ThePickleballPirates]

> Banning the traditional serve because some people can hit it more aggressively than others tho? This is not the reason. The reason is current volley serve rules are unenforceable.

[@lndshrk743]

Like pornography, you'll know it when you see it . . . .

[@patricksnyder3446]

anybody who doesn't use a legal bounce serve is foolish in my opinion!! you can do so much more with it!!

[@dpeatebc7265]

Wrong. There is a reason most pros don't use it. The ball can bounce funny and be effected by wind. The position of the ball is much more predictably uniform when you are merely dropping it a few inches. Why do you think you can do more with a bounce serve?

[@kyler5595]

Lol

[@patricksnyder3446]

@@dpeatebc7265 because you can swing the paddle any way you want legally! spin speed direction I don't ever worry about the bounce it's been consistent for me! Based on the responses below your way outnumbered!

[@rogerdavis5225]

@@dpeatebc7265 If it's windy, you still have to adjust for the wind and how it bounces and travels in the wind.

[@gg80108]

The backhand serve always results in a weak return.

[@kyler5595]

Who did Joey just lose to using a questionable serve??😂

[@STEVEBOZIC]

The drop serve is perfectly legal to use in all PB tourney’s so he made a mistake when he said he used a “questionable serve” at PPA Daytona last week. Lol

[@pjpj2639]

The gods from above ….those connected are taking away the creative aspects of the game….most of those gods couldn’t win with spin serves legal…..anyway….is what it is.

[@a0303-p5l]

No! The traditional serve should stay intact but the rule should be clarified to say that the serve cannot be remotely close to being illegal or it is automatically deemed illegal. The rule should include one free pass if a serve is challenged as being illegal and if an obvious adjustment does not occur a fault applies. Every pickleball player on the planet can distinguish between a remotely close and obvious not illegal. I use the traditional serve holding the ball 3 to 4 inches off of the floor with an upward power swing generating super speed with low trajectory just over the net creating top spin driving the ball back downward before it reaches the back line. Sorry for you folks who are unable to reproduce this effect, keep playing at 3.5 and leave us alone!!

[@rickrzendzian2228]

What's the big deal. If the margin is so small that no one can decipher is there an advantage? I think not. BJ serve is tough because he uses DEPT and pace...sorry. Quit whining about minute things.

[@kimleith1378]

Belly shirts required for all players

[@philwilliamson3d]

Midriff for all 😆

[@krazieecko]

Hell no drop serve sucks

[@whatsjeffdon3323]

Oh here we go again crying about the serve. Learn how to play!

[@keithchasteen8593]

No, it shouldn't be banned. The rules just need to be made where they can be enforced.

[@ThePickleballPirates]

would love to hear how to accomplish that

[@keithchasteen8593]

@@ThePickleballPirates Not my job! LOL!

[@alowlypawn]

No.

[@osint6372]

I say serve it anyway you want......nothing is illegal , even an overhead OR only drop serves.

[@osint6372]

Since we are talking about rules. The rules NEED to be the same across the board regardless of level......What is this clown stuff. Let serving hitting the net for example. PRO LEVEL repeat. Other levels PLAY ON. The sport is the same.....