Should We Tax Cyclists?

[@nicthedoor]

I got a little saucy at the end...I just couldn't help myself. Our Podcast, Radio Free Urbanism 👉 kzbin.info/www/bejne/o2iThYxvZ6mgh9Usi=wdHbLZOS4N1ywLZt&t=1216

[@larry4674]

mmm... bikesauce...

[@friddevonfrankenstein]

Rightfully so. Those morons keep running their mouths about stuff they just don't know shit about. They can either pay their fair share or stfu.

[@teuast]

@@larry4674I put that on my chain to make it run smoother 😎

[@darthtrucker489]

Just watch out for trucks full of stuff people buy.

[@rosalynnschlese8585]

Your spiciness earned yourself a subscription.

[@techcafe0]

the fact is, we all subsidize roads, highways, parking, and lots of other infrastructure needed to support car ownership… even those of us who have never owned or driven a car end up paying for the privileges enjoyed, and taken for granted, by those who do drive.

[@Exarhadsgfds]

Have you ever taken a bus ? Have you ever been driven anywhere ? Are stores you visit stocked with items delivered by foot from their factory ?

[@tconnolly9820]

​@@ExarhadsgfdsThis was covered in the video if you were paying attention. The total amount of taxes you pay as a driver DO NOT COVER THE COST OF BUILDING AND MAINTAINING ROADWAYS AND INFRASTRUCTURE! The rest of the cost comes out of general taxation which EVERYONE pays. There was no dispute about the need for commercial and industrial transport either. That is a necessity for society. I, like the video maker and you, also own and use a car. But I also use a bicycle as much as possible and PRACTICAL instead of the car. More infrastructure for cycling and other active and micro forms of transportation means LESS congestion from cars. It's a win win for everyone really. When good infrastructure is built, people will gradually move over to use it. In London this year, the number of bicycle commuters has exceeded the numbers of car commuters and it's growing quickly. So quickly they can't keep building more infrastructure quickly enough. If you build it properly, people will use it. If it's badly planned and half assed and dangerous then people won't. There was a video I saw recently of a bike lane taking up a lane that used to be for cars in Detroit. People like you in the comments were going mad because no one was using it. But.... it was just one cycle lane on one street going nowhere from nowhere with no other lanes or infrastructure anywhere around it. What did they expect someone on a bike to do? Just ride up and down that one single bike lane on that one single street going nowhere? That's just fools wasting money unless it's the beginning of a planned network. But if YOU want to be able to say you are paying for the road you're driving on then I suggest you dig into your pocket and pay out another few thousand bucks towards your actual fair share. What are you afraid of? This is giving people the freedom to choose how they may get around to work or school or shopping or recreation that suits them best. Do you believe that you have the right to deny other people to choose to do something different from you? Again, tell me what you are afraid of?

[@aightm8]

Depends on the country I guess because in Ireland we pay hundreds in motor tax, 60% of petrol cost is tax, tolls, VAT on the car, VAT on the insurance all pay for the roads. Overall probably paying 2-3k in road related taxes per year. Is that really not enough to fund roads for 1 vehicle?

[@tconnolly9820]

@@aightm8 I just looked up how much paved roads we have in Ireland and compared it to the UK per 1,000 capita Ireland 22.87 km per 1,000 people. The second highest in the world after Austria. United Kingdom 6.33 km per 1,000 people. So that's about three and a half times more length of total roads per capita to maintain than the British. Mostly this is an historic fact of having a low mostly agricultural population mostly spread out all over the country with a lot of small local roads giving access to all of these small communities. In Britain and especially England which accounts for about 90% of the total British population it's been predominantly urban for over two centuries and most of the countryside was owned by huge estates. If you just want to count motorways and national primary roads then for Ireland it's approximately 5,306km for 5.1 million people and for the UK it's approximately 51,338km for 67 million people. Or 1.04km per 1000 people in Ireland and 0.76km per 1000 population in the UK. Still over a third more than the UK due to the small population. So even though Ireland, and I just mean the Republic of Ireland is substantially smaller than the UK (including Northern Ireland), we still have a sh1t load more roads to maintain and pay for per capita due to our much smaller and more spread out population. And there are still plenty of lobbies looking for motorways or National Routes built between counties with a population that in England would barely be a large town. So now we both know where and how so much more money has been going into roads here compared to our nearest neighbour. I didn't know these numbers either until I went looking for an answer to your comment. It's certainly been educational.

[@aightm8]

@@tconnolly9820 vehicle related taxes generate over 6BN in taxes. Roads cost 1.3BN. In fact the ENTIRE transport budget was 3BN. I can't imagine what country the original poster lives in where he has deluded himself that motorists are subsidized, as have you. There is a government website for Ireland which documents how taxes are spent. So you are arguing against verifiable facts

[@chriswilson554]

Bikers wanted to be treated the same as car drivers but refuse to cause 50,000 fatalities a year

[@dogshake]

Nah you guys just act like you own the road. No care in the world. Weaving in and out of cars, scraping them as you pass by. Head down, never checking for anything. But the moment a car gets close to them or they get hit, they want to act like it’s not their fault for sweeping over three busy lanes without checking for anyone. Lol you guys are delusional and love the smell of your own farts.

[@svr5423]

Bikers have more fatalities per person per km. Poor decision making.

[@paulb9769]

Get of your ass and get a bike.

[@bamischijf5968]

@@svr5423 probably because they get hit by idiots in cars who either dont pay attention or hit cyclists on purpose

[@zecuse]

@@svr5423 Yes, because they're very likely the victim in those fatalities which were cause by a 2klb metal exterior box on large wheels going ~30+mph. I suggest you learn about momentum; it's always conserved.

[@jdillon8360]

Yep. Most of those angry anti-bike folk really have no idea how roads are funded.

[@mrwpg]

We know how roads are funded, not by cycle mentalists... fuel tax, road tax, vat, council tax all pay for roads... 2 out of 3 are not cyclists... now pay your share or better yet use a combustion engine and say no the NAZI Climate agenda...

[@micosstar]

Like, if you wanna complain, do it with facts (but how common is that on certain groups?)

[@mrwpg]

fact, if a person uses the road they should pay the same fee's as everyone else who uses the road... Why can't you imbeciles understand that...@@micosstar

[@mrwpg]

so motorbike riders are "anti-bike", get help Rainbow NAZI...

[@Brackcycle]

​@markieshome so true!

[@geoffmerritt]

I work as a tax accountant in Australia. One of my clients was complaining that cyclists don't pay "road tax." After explaining how the tax system works and that there is no such tax, I pointed out at the end of the interview that they were under the tax-free threshold and no tax was payable by them. In fact, as a cyclist, I contributed more towards the upkeep of the roads than they did, earning more than they did.

[@js2sgamer951]

Under the threshold? I’m in Australia. Isn’t that 18000? Why do they need an accountant if they only make 18000?

[@liamsmith1490]

your "client" is probably if they are earning less than $18200 is probably considered to be living in poverty meanwhile you who probably earns over $100000 decided to lecture them on how much better you are.

[@ArnoldQMudskipper]

​@@liamsmith1490Having low earnings doesn't give you a pass on ignorance. Explaining facts, to someone talking out of their arse, isn't lecturing.

[@geoffmerritt]

@@liamsmith1490 You are aware a couple can earn over 60k and still not pay tax, your also wrong about my income, the gap may not be as big as you think after tax is paid.

[@liamsmith1490]

@@geoffmerritt are you saying your client did pay tax as a couple?

[@worldeconomicfella3228]

It's just as silly as complaining why pedestrians don't pay taxes for their sidewalks.

[@michaelgurd7477]

And that they should pay insurance.

[@Nicoriss]

@@michaelgurd7477 You do pay insurance as a pedestrian (and as a cyclist): most of the time, it's your liability insurance you pay with your house.

[@Capohanf1]

THEY DO!!! Where do you think the city gets the $$$ to BUILD the sidewalks!!!!!!! FROM TAXES!!!!!!!!!

[@svr5423]

They also don't get their sidewalks cleaned and cleared of snow by the state.

[@michaelgurd7477]

@@svr5423 But they pay their taxes.

[@nbartlett6538]

In the UK we hear all the time that cyclists should pay "road tax". Of course there is no such thing as "road tax", at least not since the 1930s! What we do have is Vehicle Excise Duty, which is calculated on the carbon emissions of a vehicle. So whenever somebody says I pay no VED, I point out that neither do electric cars... and they are doing far more damage to the roads with their monstrous weight.

[@nbartlett6538]

Of course it's hard to have this nuanced discussion with the driver of a white Ford Transit van who has just yelled at you for having the temerity to exist in his vicinity.

[@webchimp]

As someone with a bicycle I would happily pay £1 a month if all other vehicles paid based on 4th power law of axle weight.

[@mrwpg]

Vehicle excise duty IS road tax. Excise duty by definition is a tax. the fact the regime can charge you tax on the purchase of your every year on top of VAT which is also a sales tax and council tax which pays for the roads is CRIMINAL... triple charging the same tax and NAZI apologists like you are to dumb to see it...

[@mrwpg]

^^77 Brigade TROLL ALERT^^@@nbartlett6538

[@mrwpg]

I'm just getting a petrol motorbike, we need a warmer climate and there is no electric infrastructure to charge the highly flammable bomb...@@RNG-ts5gn

[@JRTTSRoadCycling]

If there is indeed such a loophole that can make people skip taxes by choosing a bicycle as a mode of transport, then EVERYONE will be cyclists.

[@NinjaFresh]

Nah I'd rather not be gay.

[@azertycraftgaming]

@@NinjaFresh wow

[@theepimountainbiker6551]

This is 1 retort I use for the cyclist should pay taxes for bike lanes BS, just show me the box to tick off on my taxes where it goes to bike lanes not roads and I'll gladly check it

[@andreikilla]

And form ppl who don't own children

[@yaygya]

@@andreikilla owning human beings is illegal.

[@TommyJonesProductions]

Car drivers wear out the roads. Bicycles don't. Bicycle riders already pay taxes. This argument is stupid.

[@roller12coaster]

If a car owner would spend 100 dollars a month on road tax, a bike owner would have to pay 0,006 dollars per month if we adjust for damage to the road. I'm more than happy to spend that much on road tax for riding my bike if that meant better infrastructure. Hell, I'd even round it up to a cent, I'm not stingy.

[@adjsmith]

They all are. Every argument against expanded bike and mass transit infra is stupid. Every single one. That doesn't stop them from coming back, from being regurgitated over and over again. What I want to know is not "what are the arguments against", I want to know "where are these arguments coming from"? Who is saying them in the first place? JimmyMegatruk1977 didn't come up with the road tax argument on his own. He uncritically accepted it when someone else said it, probably a repost on TwitBook or Redchan or something. Where did it come from originally? And, more importantly, can we get them to shut the hell up?

[@carterdeyoung1060]

Hear me out, I know it’s a lot to put up front, but if every biker paid 2 cents we could double the bike lanes!

[@roller12coaster]

@@carterdeyoung1060 could we get some bike parking for that price do you reckon?

[@mrwpg]

cycle mentalists DO NOT pay road tax, try facts RAINBOW NAZI sum...

[@BlacqueJacqueShellacque_]

As a cyclist, I agree. I suggest that everyone is charged $1/kg for the weight of the vehicle (each year). 🙂

[@keit273]

i would be making a payment more than my car is worth every year

[@JoeOvercoat]

@@keit273no, you’d be making tax payments greater than what you could sell your car for. it’s value is immeasurable, in the USA.

[@scruf153]

streets/roads are $600 billion+ over what the gas tax brings in who pays the rest

[@allergy5634]

@@keit273Then why should I the tax payer have to pay for the damage your car causes to the roads?

[@cloudburstrc1633]

you mean the damage the bad roads do to a car@@allergy5634

[@fallenshallrise]

Any REAL car person would be campaigning for 4x as many bike lanes, secure bike parking, free transit, bus lanes, elevated trains, metros - anything to get some number of the thousands of mundane people in their silver KIA mini-vans to run their errands some other way and not clog up the roads.

[@reidflemingworldstoughestm1394]

Unfortunately concern for ones convenience beats out using critical thinking skills most of the time.

[@carbharharbcar5867]

hi its me im real car person, please ride a bike or ebike or motorcycle or whatever immediately

[@tangentfox4677]

As someone who loves driving.. YES! Make me not want to drive!

[@allergy5634]

@@tangentfox4677except this would make driving better for you because of the laws of induced demand.

[@grben9959]

I'm a car person and what I'd like to see is allowing smaller, less reinforced, vehicles on the regular roads. On a normal public road you can walk, ride a horse, bicycle, motorcycle; Why can't you drive a golf cart or micro-car? You don't want those on limited access highways, but it seems weird that we don't allow them where motorbikes can go. Minivans are very practical vehicles. Ain't nothing wrong with them. They really hit the efficiency/capability/cost sweet spot. The disgusting thing are the crossovers created because of cafe stupidity and the ever increasing weight bloat that's only being accelerated by misguided regulation and EV subsidy.

[@roderickcortez138]

Oh please. Even if cyclists paid EXTRA taxes to ride their bikes, motorists would still be crying and complaining.

[@gavinvales8928]

This is what happens when you encourage, no, force everyone to drive. A bunch of drivers get resentful about all the costs associated with their Dino powered hunk of metal, and all the idiots in that group think that everyone else should have to as well, instead of just making the right decision and cutting it out of their life.

[@K-Anator]

Plant powered, but yea.

[@garnet4846]

You're the idiot here, believing in dinosaurs and Fossil fuel.

[@thiagosalice8403]

​@@K-Anator Explain yourself

[@scruf153]

streets/roads are $600 billion+ over what gas tax brings in if you pay taxes your paying for streets/roads and sometimes sidewalks @@thiagosalice8403

[@johncaswell2648]

@@thiagosalice8403 I believe they're referring to the fact that oil is more the remains of ancient plants than dinosaurs.

[@PixelShade]

I also find it funny that a road built for cars last about 10 years until they fall into disrepair, while something like a bike path from my dad's home in the suburb to the city that was constructed 30 years ago still doesn't have any signs of wear or pot holes even as they experience Swedish winters... Who would've guessed that the weight of a cyclist ~60-90kg doesn't inflict as much damage on the road as a modern car of 2000kg.

[@leonpaelinck]

in my country sadly bike paths often go down fast because they're often driven on because they're next to many driveways

[@josephfisher426]

It's really regular truck and bus traffic that kills the road surface. Rural roads that are a thin coat of crushed asphalt over gravel might get recoated every 10 years (cheaply), but local urban roads with proper pavement probably run about 50 years.

[@xKillYourTVx]

the only arch enemy to bike lanes are tree roots :( Damn those roots are powerful.

[@tillposer]

The damage done to the road structure scales with the fourth power. Which means: a 40 ton HGV does 500,000 times the damage a 1,5 ton car does, which again does 50,000 times the damage a 100 kg bike+rider combination does. Which translates to: to do the same damage one passage of HGV a section of road, 25 BILLION bicycles have to pass over the same stretch. Do the calculation yourself...

[@RebeccaTurner-ny1xx]

Cycle lanes here in my part of the UK deteriorate fairly soon. They're often near trees whose roots lift up the surface, making the paths difficult to ride on. General weathering soon erodes surfaces, too.

[@ryansupak3639]

I'm open to this. Let's pay, proportionately, by cost of infrastructure. I'll be even more generous: car drivers don't even have to pay for the carbon footprint that is a direct result of their choices. Based on these conservative numbers: how much is the check that the government will be sending me? (;

[@andrewlalis]

The problem is that measuring someone's carbon footprint is basically impossible unless you stalk them all day. It's a lot easier to regulate businesses instead, and have those costs passed to consumers. If authorities did that, suddenly cars would be much less affordable and appealing.

[@joelv4495]

@@andrewlalis Trouble is, the army of lobbyists of two VERY large and powerful industries would be sicced on any lawmaker who proposed such an outlandish suggestion.

[@mentonerodominicano]

My worry about this proportional approach is that a lot of poor and disabled people who rely on public transportation (and not just use it sporadically) might get hit hard with huge fare raises.

[@sebastianr1204]

He forget the tax paid by the automobile industry and all workers in this industry. I am from Europe currently living in Germany. Almost all of Germany is financed by the car industry, their workers and the drivers.

[@jorgkunischewski9363]

Oh, I didn't know that! Could you send me your sources, so that I can learn more about that. So that would mean, that I should stop complaining about the undemocratic and dangerous power this industry has in Germany and begin to appreciate all the big Cars parking on the Sidewalk, ruining the Environment and Killing children on their way to school, because they are giving me my money. Okay I will sell my Bikes and buy a car... And then wait for my newly earned paycheck from VW....

[@КонстантинШмиголь-н2о]

Here in Russia I hear the same stupid arguments against bikes. But I hope that the voice of reason will be heard. Sometime

[@Mountain-Man-3000]

Russia knows no reason.

[@Klaster_1]

At least Russia has a functioning public transportation system, for the most part.

[@donnikthejedi2222]

​@@Klaster_1well the worker Class has to get into the Factories somehow and Cars were a Luxury, in the Soviet occupied East Germany you had to apply for a Car and literally wait 15 years for a damn Trabant.

[@annasolovyeva1013]

In most of Russia - you would only cycle in summer For out southern cities - great idea though

[@КонстантинШмиголь-н2о]

@@Klaster_1 you mean “the most part of Moscow?🤣

[@alex2143]

The absolutely most infuriating thing about this discussion is the following 2 points: 1) Bike infrastructure is incredibly cheap when compared to road infrastructure. 2) More people cycling means less cars, means less of the more expensive car infrastructure needed. So bike infrastructure incentivizes people to cycle, which means less money spent on infrastructure overall. Frankly, part of that money saved should be reimbursed to cyclists. It's utterly stupid to charge cyclists for the fact that they're literally saving society money.

[@reidflemingworldstoughestm1394]

If car apologists used rational arguments, they wouldn't be car apologists.

[@JasperKlijndijk]

I liked the personal finance argument even more. If poor or middle class people can change an expenditure of ~500 a month to oil barons, car manufactures and highways to a 500 extra in the local economy that can change everything for the better

[@scruf153]

streets/roads are $600 billion+ over what the gas tax brings in who pays the rest

[@grben9959]

More people biking doesn't always mean less driving. The majority of bicycles in my neck of the woods are from people who drove their bike out here to ride around in the countryside. Individually they aren't bad, but when they get in groups they don't consider consider traffic rules and litter ruining the place for everyone.

[@sirlancevrot3978]

but anyway even if it's cheap it doesn't mean that it's free, and anyway some one need to maintain the lanes, clean it, fix cracks put marks etc

[@dimitriosfotopoulos3689]

I have a job, I have a house, and I have a car. Two cars, in fact. So yeah, I pay taxes. But if I gave up the cars, would my tax drop significantly? Not so much, because much of the non-vehicle related taxes I pay still goes to items like roads, bridges, and other infrastructure. Cyclists already pay taxes, no need to double down...

[@tconnolly9820]

I have a car and I cycle as much as possible so I've got a foot in both camps. Bikes and e-bikes are ideal as a substitute for a second car very often. I live 6.5km from my nearest town and shops. 20 to 25 minutes on an ordinary bicycle. I use a trailer for weekly shopping trips. A bike poncho takes care of the wet weather. I can do almost everything by bike up to 10km and a lot 20km and more when it's convenient. It'd be even easier on an e-bike. I don't HAVE to, but it's enjoyable and satisfying and good for my health and fitness but still doing it all in ordinary clothes. And I meet so many more people to talk to when I am cycling compared to driving which tends to slow things down even more but in the best way. No lycra or being competitive to prove anything to anyone. Plenty of lights front and rear always plus two good motorcycle type mirrors for safety and being sensible and defensive when riding. There's no point being legally dead right but still ending up dead in a situation.

[@scruf153]

$600 billion+ over what the gas tax brings in who pay the rest

[@justalonelypoteto]

a lot of people don't realize a significant amount of what you directly pay for in a car is just because you're hauling around 2 tons of steel at high speeds, often with dangerously poor driving skills. Insurance? You pay that because a big hunk of metal can much more conceivably cause millions in damages which your wallet cannot cover, unlike a bicycle which is neither that fast nor remotely that heavy. In addition, as you drive the bigger hunk of metal it is generally more of your responsibility to be vigilant, you need to be more qualified (in theory) to drive a car than to walk, thus because of the increased responsibility it makes sense that you would be more often at fault than a pedestrian, another reason you have to pay insurance. Same deal goes for annual inspections and whatnot, malfunctioning brakes on your car are undoubtedly more of a liabilty to society than on a bicycle, thus your bike doesn't generally need a checkup

[@DinoCon]

Nothing makes me preemptively roll my eyes quicker than a social media avatar that involves sitting in a car with a goatee and sunglasses. Bonus points for a cap.

[@Anurania]

I consider a cyclist to be much closer to being a pedestrian than being a vehicle. The only real difference between a pedestrian and a cyclist is the speed. A person walking could be carrying 20lb of metal and still be considered a pedestrian.

[@fallenshallrise]

Interesting perspective. It's true that a lot of the time if I'm coming home with groceries or from the liquor store my bags weigh a lot more than a bike does.

[@tconnolly9820]

My hybrid no e, just me workhorse bicycle weighs around 18kg. Not a lightweight. Put racks and bags and locks on it and a little luggage another 10kg. Plus me another 120kg+. And I could have another 20-30kg of cargo at times. Add a trailer which I regularly use when I want to carry more than the bike can accommodate and that's another 45-85kg So with me, the bike and one of my trailers at it's heaviest that's over 230kg on the road. Pedal power only. And I could do more. It's not as difficult as it may sound. Now if you want to talk about cargo bikes or trikes or commercial e-bike cargo trailers those numbers can skyrocket and technically it's all still a bicycle.

[@Vaasref]

​@@tconnolly9820 If you consider the health benefits to cycle vs driving in particular in NA, a lot of "people" weight would be traded for bicyble weight. So overall, I think considering cyclists as pedestrians when it comes to pavement stress is correct. That being said, if bikes are not degrading the pavement, time is, I don't know if the estimates of what bikes should pay (the less than a cent figure that floats around this comment section) is actually accurate. If everybody were cycling and walking wouldn't the main degradation factor not be time then ? I'm intuiting that the cost of bike is a calculated from how much stress on the road but using the same lifecycle as for a road for cars. Like a road lasting around 40 years wouldn't be much affected by bikes but still need to be maintained and redone anyway.

[@reidflemingworldstoughestm1394]

On a scale of 1 to 100, with pedestrian at 1 and cars at 100, bicycles top out at about 4, but with a much lower rate of accidental collision than cars have.

[@readyforlol]

@@tconnolly9820 And that extreme use is still a mere fraction of even the smallest, lightest road legal car.

[@abelincoln78]

I live in Indiana. Here INDOT has roughly $570mil in operating budget and $2.55billion in capital expenditures budget. Now, I couldn't find the info today, but when I looked in the not to distant past I discovered the operating budget is ALMOST 100% paid by gas tax and excise tax. And that money is largely spent on car stuff: plowing roads in the winter, fixing pot holes, some repaving jobs. But that capital expenditures budget? It comes from the general fund. Sales tax. Property tax. Federal money. That's the money that builds new roads and bike lanes. So yes, cyclists are in fact already paying their fair share.

[@bararobberbaron859]

Their fair share and a good chunk more.

[@scruf153]

$600 billion+ over what the gas tax brings in who pays the rest

[@abelincoln78]

@craigbowers4016 give a wave to the Purdue schools of engineering and technology next time you pedal by. If they're complaining about the loss of parking spaces "to bikes" you may counter point that standard single parking space bike corrals hold 12 bikes. In places where cars typically bring 1-2 people to places, those provide space for at least 6 customers where only one was before! Why business owners would argue against that, as they do, is beyond me.

[@ambiarock590]

Not Just Bikes: "You want bicycle riders to pay their fair share? Okay, start calculating their refund checks.". We indeed save the city far more money than the taxes we pay to maintain it

[@mikko.g]

Before I watch this video... you don't have to address this issue, anybody who thinks that cyclists don't pay taxes don't understand the basics about civics. These are the same people who live 35 km out of town, pay nearly no property tax, drive downtown to their job and then complain their roads are broken and bumpy. I live around a lot of these people. They do not understand the difference between the damage 10 kg bike does to the road vs a 2000 kg pickup. No city would adopt a tax on cyclists because every cyclist on the road saves the city money.

[@ambiarock590]

In the words of Not Just Bikes: "You want bicycle riders to pay their fair share? Okay, start calculating their refund checks."

[@AustinSersen]

I've had two people in the last few years (in winter) yell from their cars: "Get a f*king car." Let's do a little thought experiment. If everyone that currently rides a bike, walks, and takes transit switched to driving, the heckler's life would become significantly more challenging with all of the extra traffic everywhere, trying to find a parking space, and worse wear and tear on all of the roadways. Geez, maybe I should just "get a car" if only to make his life worse... Don't forget about how all of the vibrant spaces would be bulldozed to make way for more parking!

[@gromm93]

They don't do that for something you're doing. They do that because they want to feel better about themselves. And there's not a lot to be proud of.

[@AustinSersen]

@@gromm93 Car brain is truly a marvel. "I'm better than you because I waste several thousands of dollars a year to feel superior to peasants." Cool, enjoy living paycheque to paycheque driving around a beat up Civic or Suburban, bud.

[@elliotwilliams7421]

​@@AustinSersenyou are dumb.

[@lobsypobsy]

A beaten up 2003 Civic is still better than a Ford F850 Child Emulsifier.

[@Bob_Lob_Law]

I'm honestly surprised people say that. Nobody has yelled at me ever, in all my riding. Don't listen to them. They are resentful, and they want to drag you down. We are winning, its just a matter of time now.

[@cyclenut]

People who drive automobiles should pay 100% of the wear they cause, and stop having those who do not drive support the lazy motorists.

[@royying]

Then you have to pay extra for groceries for the road damage done by truck that supplying the store

[@cyclenut]

@@royying with more taxes payed by lazy motorists it will help offset that added tax.

[@stevecarter8810]

I don't think you should put aside the false dichotomy. Even the category "cyclists" scarcely exists. You have road users who are cycling and road users who are driving. It's literally a choice per trip. I cycle nearly everywhere because my car, on which I pay all the dues, is used by my wife for the school run the groceries and her job.

[@sligor85]

I’m ok to pay a tax proportional to the weight. SUV will pay 150 times more tax than me.

[@Arjay404]

The weirdest part about this is how they think this is a gotcha. If I had to pay, what? $50 a year? As my fair share and that meant we get all the bikes lanes and infrastructure we needed, I'd easily pay it, I think most bikers would. The problem is that even if that was to happen, Anti-Cyclist would still find something else to complain about. Bikers DO get ticketed for running red lights and breaking other traffic laws, the big thing to keep in mind is that just like cars the vast majority of traffic infractions are not caught by the police and ticketed. The only reason you notice the cars being ticketed is because they are big metal boxes and because YOU are in a car and looking out for those things.

[@CleatSurfer]

In my area, there isn't much cycle infrastructure yet motorists think you to pay a special tax just for your bike. I think they are frustrated and just want to punish people for cycling or discourage its use because bikes are in their way as if their purpose for using the road is greater than a cyclist's. Any time bike infrastructure is proposed, motorists lose their minds. Instead, we widen highways. That idea gets great support.

[@scruf153]

yet cars drivers kill more people than guns do in America 34,000 a year

[@RobinSentell]

Not just bikes. It’s also HOV lanes for buses, congestion pricing, parklets; anything that reclaims public space.

[@svr5423]

wider highways are good. easier to overtake bikes and bikes don't need to share space with pedestrians. Also less idiotic bike riders on the road than on dedicated bike paths.

[@0xsergy]

​@@svr5423those darn idiot bike riders making crops not grow anymore thanks to the lack of rainfall from their bicycles causing climate change. oh darn them

[@lilacghoste8366]

​​@@svr5423widen highway never worked 😂 It just created bigger traffic

[@frmcf]

I’m a cyclist and I paid a 5-figure amount of tax last year. I pay income tax, VAT, various excise duties on alcohol, fuel, etc., as well as capital gains tax, inheritance tax, property tax, property sales tax, insurance premium tax, you name it. Even if I didn’t also drive a car, I would pay virtually all of the taxes that a car driver pays. I legitimately don’t get this idea that cyclists are somehow using the roads ‘for free’ and motorists are somehow imagined to be picking up the bill. It seems like absolutely crazed thinking to me.

[@scruf153]

$600 billion+ over what the gas tax brings in who pays the rest

[@crichard]

As a fat man with a heavy bicycle; I'm just happy to be included in the conversation.

[@martin1042]

I always find it ridiculous how it almost seems like a war of cultures whether you ride a bike or a car. Where I live, many people do both. They ride a car when it's the better choice (e.g. with little kids or for shopping), but on other occasions use a bike. In my city (Berlin, Germany) road traffic is super slow, and it's hard to find parking space. So for shorter trips a bike is usually the faster and less stressful option, even if you own a car. A colleague of mine has a car, but still chooses to ride 13 km to work. Riding a bike does not mean that you are a leftist! Yet there's so much aggression against cyclists, as if they were car drivers' worst enemies.

[@svr5423]

Yes, most people do both. But here there are many bike-fetishists who like to make other people's lives miserable and then are triggered when people call them out. They are not representative of the bike-folk, fortunately.

[@gingermany6223]

The chair of my regional metro planning org (MPO), the organization that decided how the bulk of our transportation dollar are spent, actually tried to use the "bike don't pay taxes" line to justify not spending money on active transportation. Just shows how ingrained this idea is in North America.

[@lakelobster]

If cyclists were taxed fairly, they'd be getting paid to ride.

[@diedertspijkerboer]

Basically, what this vid says is that cyclists subsidise drivers, not the other way around.

[@lazylonewolf]

- Doesn't damage roads, minimal maintenance - Minimal pollution compared to cars, so keeps everyone around them healthier - Keeps the rider healthy, so needs less healthcare. Relevant for countries with universal healthcare - No noise pollution

[@PhouFoo]

I'm all for fair taxes for every road user... Wooops, driving a car and transporting goods on roads via trucks is suddenly horrendously expensive.

[@F3udF1st]

Who would've thunk carbrains aren't actually that smart or informed.

[@chriskimber7179]

Well done! Too bad those who need to hear this the most are the least likely to watch it!

[@RB3_24cent]

saying that cyclists should pay taxes to have a bike lane is like saying pedestrians should pay taxes so they can have a curbside otherwise they walk with cars

[@BrianBoniMakes]

You're right, it's the cars that are subsidized. I always like to point out that bikes were on the roads about a century before the popularization of cars but things like insurance and traffic lights didn't exist until after car driving was established. Why should bikes pay for things we don't need?

[@korgmangeek]

Simpler (false) car-logic: Tax the pedestrians for the side walk.

[@TheRandCrews]

Get them a walking license and insurance

[@sexygeek8996]

I have heard drivers say that there shouldn't be any sidewalks because pedestrians don't pay gas taxes. I have been to gated communities that don't have sidewalks.

[@0hypnotoad0]

A system where "everyone paid their fair share" would involve car drivers paying $2000 per year for road upkeep and bicycles paying $20 per year. If bicycles actually had the same requirements as cars like road taxes and insurance, cycles would probably pay a grand total for $60 for road tax + liability insurance. If that actually meant getting lots of paved, dedicated bicycle highways built then I think a lot of people would actually be down with that price of admission.

[@robertfindley921]

Yes, they should call it the "not lazy, not obese, not arrogant, not polluting, trying to stay fit and not burden the healthcare system tax".

[@svr5423]

most cyclists are arrogant and bitter because they didn't pass their driving exam

[@LightsOnMultiMediaMindArts]

I often hear complaints about how there are all these bike lanes and yet they never see anyone biking on them. I tell them that's because there's no such thing as a bicycle traffic jam. The honest answer, though, is they don't see many bicyclists on the street because the bicyclists are afraid cars will kill them.

[@jerm1027]

I'm always curious as to how motorcycles weigh in on these stats. 2 of my motorcycles have registration costs that are doubled that of my car, and my motorcycle license is on top of my driver's license. Despite disproportionately more than a typical car driver, I'm very much a second class citizen on the road, and nothing exemplifies this more than looking at how much parking is dedicated for motorcycles. A commercial plaza I frequent for my lunch hour has about 600+ parking spaces, 6 of which are reserved in pairs for motorcycles, each pair able to fit 10 motorcycles (essentially 5 motorcycles per car space). So I find it rich when a car driver complains about my 2-wheeled brethren taking up the road and needing to pay their fair share as I'm routinely unable to park in this plaza because a single car is taking 10 motorcycle spaces.

[@drill_fiend1097]

As a cyclist I can sympathize with motorcycles. I think the added risk of motorcycles over bicycles is that they accelerate fast, reach higher speed, and speed wobble could happen at higher speeds and requires keeping track of shifting as to not stall. So I think it makes sense to require additional training. But for those who can ride, it is a great transportation without hauling dead weight when commuting. Noise is a different issue, but I guess it will change as electrification improves.

[@agilemind6241]

@@drill_fiend1097Noise from motorcycles is largely by design. I lived in the UK for a while where there was a seniors-only motorcycle club and they were no more noisy than a car. Whereas in NAmerica most motorcycles can be heard 3 blocks away.

[@0xsergy]

​@@drill_fiend1097stock bikes are super quiet. dickheads in a car or bike are loud unfortunately.

[@WeakneeDave]

Well done Nic.....I just wish I could somehow share this with every angry Vancouver motorist that has yelled at me on the bike. Thankfully, our bikeway network has evolved to a point where I' m crossing paths with them less frequently.

[@Ted_Eddy]

I have a car but I cycle... So I reduce congestion, don't clog up the highways and don't wear through the road!

[@Raven.flight]

THIS IS THE INTERNET. WE DO NOT DO FACTS HERE!!!

[@therelianceschool]

I've done a bit of my own research on this subject, but you took it way farther, and I was honestly surprised by the conclusions. Glad to have this information on hand to inform others!

[@paulb9769]

What are your research resources?

[@ambiarock590]

I'm glad that I've seen car enthusiasts making videos on this topic. It's not just the general public that is negatively affected, actual car enthusiasts are also negatively affected cuz it ruins our hobby by clogging the roads with idiot drivers who don't give a damn about driving who then don't bother properly maintains their vehicles which makes it worse for everyone

[@insoft_uk]

Majority of UK drivers think they are paying road tax 🤣🤦‍♂️

[@kev2034]

It annoys me to no end because they seem to not make the connection that if bikes were required to pay a VED it'd be 0 quid a year like with electric cars.

[@insoft_uk]

@@kev2034 I bet you one day a dumb driver in a electric vehicle going to turn around and complain to a cyclist they should pay road tax like them, it’s going to happen or probably has

[@thomashughes_teh]

Tax cyclists on the amount of damage they cause to roads, property and people. I've got my two cent lifetime contribution ready to give.

[@drstranger4407]

Trust me i do pay for useing bike lanes the amount of punctures i get from glass is ridiculous

[@theresnoi9792]

Great Video. People tend to feel entitled to their mode of transport. Only some people are rightfully entitled.

[@ecopennylife]

Great informative video 🥰 I've used my eBike pedal assist for 5 years for shorter commutes & done over 6000km already 🚴

[@paulb9769]

Lol I do about 3000 a year with out a motor.

[@svr5423]

@@paulb9769 I've reduced my vehicle usage to about 15'000km a year.

[@ThaCyNiQ]

That's ridiculous. Driving is a luxury or a privelage not a right. Everyone has the right to travel but driving is completely different to a human powered vehicle.

[@zilfondel]

Kids should be taxed for attending public schools too. And people should be taxed for walking down the sidewalk!

[@damiaanspatrick2050]

Not so long ago, there was a bike tax. ( in Belgium) You had to buy an aluminium plate every year at the municipality and install it on your bike ( at the wheel)

[@nuttycommuter3718]

Yeah they got rid of it because it wasn’t worth the effort

[@RavenMyBoat]

There is only one tax that is reasonable, and that is a Land Value Tax. You should have to pay for the space you monopolize. Congestion charges fall into this. If cycling became a substantial burdon on pedestrians existing in public space, then we should charge them a congestion charge as well. However, transportation being afforadable is, in many ways, a massive boon to society, and thus it makes sense for it to be subsidised in some ways by ignoring some externalities. Should we ignore the externalities involved with air emmisions and congestion of cars, no. Should we ignore the externality cost of the space taken up by a cyclist, imo yes.

[@forivall]

Good ol' Georgism.

[@sabbottart]

Proven fact: car drivers have bigger stomachs, higher blood pressure, poor circulation and worse health overall.

[@morethantransitt]

In my opinion, cyclists should receive a tax relief or rebate because they damage the road much less than heavy cars, especially bigger SUVs and pickup trucks! Also from a local governance perspective, we all have paid our fair share of taxes for our infrastructure, no matter if we drive, bike, take transit, or walk via local property taxes and sales taxes. However, not many people understand how local and property taxation and budgeting works, so a lot of education is needed!

[@quickreviewchannel6931]

Cyclists are the ones helping out clean the crappy air we breathe due to lazy people who can’t go 1 miles without driving!

[@jasonschubert6828]

Really, the only figure you should need to see is the one showing how much your choice of transport costs society. But if they really want it, I'm quite happy to get 26¢ back if those drivers want to pay their 89¢! 😂

[@PTMG]

Do walkers have to pay tax for sidewalk space? What about crosswalks?

[@annoyed707]

Not here. There is no bike infrastructure at all and barely any for pedestrians.

[@SnootchieBootchies27]

The intelligence level of these folks is pretty evident. They think insurance is to pay for the roads? Omg

[@flat-earther]

hi snootchieb, have you become a flat earther yet? If not I suggest viewing the 13 part series _what on earth happened_ in my about to learn how the earth is not a globe

[@SnootchieBootchies27]

@@flat-earther nah, i've decided to keep the critcal thinking portion of my brain functional, and not go full retard

[@Daniel-dj7fh]

I think the most hate towards cyclists is the general incompetence to follow the road rules. And that they either block the whole ass road or ride too slow for the road. I don't think I've ever heard a motorist complain about cyclists on bicycle lanes, assuming the city didn't just randomly declare a whole road as a bike road.

[@Zox604]

As a bicyclist I contribute a lot. I ride my bicycle to job and back every day. 15,5 km (about 10miles) one way. I can't ride it on loaf on bread and glass of water. I eat meat and chees. Pretty expensive. And it is taxed.

[@cute-pat00t]

And don’t forget “the high cost of free parking”! We drown in cars, require businesses to provide arbitrary and excessive amounts of parking (which is EXPENSIVE), which then gets lumped into the cost of goods at that store or the rent at those apartments.

[@scruf153]

14 bicycles can fit in one car parking spot

[@svr5423]

@@scruf153 So you'll duct-tape those 14 bicycles together to take home the furniture you bought at Ikea?

[@svr5423]

The cost is even higher if no free parking exists. People don't browse shops anymore and just order stuff on the internet. There is no opportunity to upsel because people have their list that they will fullfil as quickly as possible, bumping other people out of the way.

[@cute-pat00t]

@@svr5423 hi, you should read “paved paradise” which has many examples of how parking requirements increase the cost of goods and services of retail locations. For example, a developer found that, by developing apartments AND retail and getting approval to have them share parking (thereby reducing the # of spaces he would be required to create), he could decrease the rent of each apartment by ~$200 and be more competitive. There’s a lot of interesting information out there, and if you consider yourself a fan of free markets I would recommend reading more on it :)

[@diedertspijkerboer]

Drivers should be grateful to cyclists, because cycling infrastructure is way cheaper and takes pressure away from car lanes. Also, cycling infrastructure often pays for itself, because people actually get off their bikes and shop along their route, while drivers typically speed through.

[@darlenemartinez384]

In addition a lot of smaller towns use grants and crowdfunding to put in their trails and then rely on volunteers to help maintain them.

[@gustotrails]

Thank you for this video ❤👏

[@VelhaGuardaTricolor]

Truth is Cyclists are targeted by old farts dinosaurs bc they are annoyingly faster than the most expensive super-cars and much much cooler. The best cities in Europe are the ones in which cycling is encouraged and subsidized and CARS are considered almost like enemies. There will be a day in which cars will be completely forbidden in every major city in the world. It will be better for everyone. NO POLLUTION, NO NOISE. Just a wonderful enjoyable place to live. Commerce will thank it too.

[@flat-earther]

hi velhaguarda, have you become a flat earther yet? If not I suggest viewing the 13 part series _what on earth happened_ in my about to learn how the earth is not a globe

[@VelhaGuardaTricolor]

@@flat-earther I know for a fact Earth is a globe.

[@JedidiahBertram]

I cam in here ready to UNLEASH facts as to why the idea of taxing cyclists is absolutely preposterous, but the video handled it for me. NOICE!

[@danielrogers997]

Some of the first roads in America were built by the league of American wheelman, cyclists. The motorists liked it so much they started riding their cars on it.

[@jbtacticus]

The entitlement of the car driver has always astounded me. We all pay taxes and it should go to things for the benefit of all. But for them it's apparently "for me, but not for thee".

[@svr5423]

Cyclists don't pay taxes.

[@solracer66]

I can see an argument however for licensing bicyclists and their bicycles but the cost should be negligible and should be used for enforcing the laws and recovery of stolen bikes.

[@Pseudynom]

I'd happily pay 7.34 € per month (88 € per year; vehicle tax for a VW Golf, most sold car in Germany in 2023) if I got decent biking infrastructure in return.

[@theepimountainbiker6551]

I love the "road tax" or "gas tax" excuse in Canada. Its mind boggling how some Canadians miss it blatantly called CARBON TAX 😂 then they miss the point that the $5 a 6 year old got and spent paid to subsidize the road they cant use and still dont have a bike lane to get to school

[@drill_fiend1097]

I find it hilarious that they don't call for EVs to be off their road.

[@kookamunga2458]

No we shouldn't because some cyclists are lower income folks . Bicycle infrastructure costs one tenth the cost of car infrastructure.

[@Arjay404]

"Car" tax in the US only covers 70% of cost for highways and guess what, only "cars" are allowed to use highways. So cars don't even fully pay for the one piece of infrastructure that is only used by them. They don't pay a single cent for all the roads within cities.

[@williamcoulter5462]

Any cyclist on UK roads should pay insurance just like they have to in Europe and wear helmets, it should also be compulsory to use cycle paths as in Europe but for some strange reason these EU rules and laws were never adopted unlike the ones which punish drivers. They should also have to do the same Highway code exam as drivers as they do not seem to understand what red lights mean or stop signs and give way signs.

[@weird-guy]

I assume you are talking about the eu, my country belongs to the eu, helmets are only required on bicycles with motors and only recommended to normal bicycles, bike paths are only obligatory where they exist but to ride on the road you need to follow the code or you can get fined, a lot of ciclists are car drivers so they should know the rules and a exam will drop ridership

[@Spiethstar]

Thanks Nick, I'm not ashamed to take the bike no more. Saving money for all the drivers. Ride instead of drive that's the way to go.

[@Spiethstar]

Oh, forgot to mention.. Your profile picture looks like dr. Evil is hiding in a box

[@nicthedoor]

😂😂😂

[@UnReal31337]

We should tax people for walking outside and require licenses and insurance to do so

[@Veklim]

I live in the UK and have been an avid cyclist my entire adult life, I don't even own a car or have a license, cycling is my ONLY mode of vehicular transport. I hear this argument all the time and have to point the exact same things out whenever I do. My favourite though, is when drivers complain about me not having insurance and how that somehow makes ME a menace on the roads. To that I have to point out the number of times I've had accidents on the road caused by inattentive drivers, and have recieved absolutely no recompense for the damages and costs accrued. If I had insurance like motor vehicles do then that would not happen, because I'd have an insurance company behind me wanting to avoid the payout, and so investigations and potential legal options would be far more likely. The police would also be more inclined to take my points seriously, as they currently do not in any particular manner. I think the route of the problems we cyclists face in these matters actually boils down to jealousy and a percieved privilege. Drivers see what looks like empty lanes whilst sitting in traffic and immediately jump to the conclusion that cyclists get more than drivers do. Instead of realising that conjestion is a driver-caused issue, they see open lanes and think that the conjestion is caused by all that space being handed over to bikes. It's an issue of entitlement and resentment as much as anything.

[@svr5423]

Funny how it's always the people who only ride bicycles who are so aggressive.

[@Veklim]

@@svr5423 guy on small bike versus half a ton of steel death and it's the bicycle who is seen as aggressive.....unless you have the balls to face down a driver who bullies their way through you even when it's your right of way and all you have is your own body for coverage then you really can't say anything about this. There are bad cyclists out there and there are bad drivers, on weight the drivers cause the major issues every time because their vehicles are capable of serious damage.

[@svr5423]

@@Veklim See, that's what I mean :)

[@TomPVideo]

An incredibly illustrative example of the damage cars do to the road is near Vancouver in the Lower Seymour Conservation Reserve. In there, there is a 10km road with no regular vehicle traffic and a ton of bikes riding up and back to the dam. It's an incredibly smooth paved road that is as pristine as the day it was paved... over a decade ago. The Arbutus Greenway is another. Incredibly smooth with basically no maintenance where the roads next to it are bumpy and quickly damaged.

[@nickriley1652]

No, and reduce taxation on motorcycles and scooters

[@araylaurence6220]

very well put together video

[@dh7314]

Cyclists are already taxed. I don’t think people understand tax correctly. Roads are not paid for by “road tax” which isn’t even a thing

[@svr5423]

not enough

[@jangehrke724]

i totally agree with this video, but it makes me sad of thinking that people are more focused about money and paying taxes than worrying about nature

[@jangehrke724]

its ridiculous that a guy spend gasoline to transport a 800kg car + himself

[@mathdantastav2496]

even if bikers didn't pay taxes for maintaining roads, its about what the city wants its people to use, if cars are taxed and bikes are not, you encourage people to use bikes, wich is great, we want to encourage that to build better pedestrian safe cities

[@waddaeck2129]

go off king

[@kinamod2k]

$1.05 a litre for fuel? We're paying like £1.50 here!

[@Azeria]

It’s particularly silly when Brits use the ‘cyclists don’t pay for the roads’ argument because while we did used to have a _road_ tax for cars, we haven’t in a long time now. Cars are taxed, but they’re taxed based on the pollution they produce, not the roads they use. Roads are funded by the national tax pool and local council tax.

[@5688gamble]

We have to pay for all or bullshit? Hey, how about we force motorists to pay to clean up the mess they made of our cities? Just like I'd have to pay to demolish an extension on my house if it was inconsiderately blocking your window! Roads are kind of like making a person pay half the construction bill for that extension and the bike lanes you are giving us would be like compromising by painting it, then expecting me to buy the paint!

[@richardbutler4654]

I love my cars - just had an AMG and now a 6cyl BMW. However I love my bikes as well. Used to cycle 60km a day in London - in my youth - but back then there were no cycle lanes. Share and show patience and respect on both sides , it will go a long way....❤

[@tangentfox4677]

If cyclists paid their fair share, they'd be getting a significant rebate... so hell yea!

[@josephj6521]

I agree. All bikes should have bike plates so when you get hit by one as a pedestrian, you can find out who hit you instead at the moment, pedestrians are getting abuse from cyclists which is very poor form.

[@heinzketchup4558]

Or when cyclists disobey traffic laws, run red lights, crash into pedestrians or dogs, they should be able to be held accountable just like cars are.

[@heinzketchup4558]

@craigbowers4016 electric scooters are an absolute pest indeed😂

[@0xsergy]

​@@heinzketchup4558i dont stop at reds on a bicycle if the road is clear. why bother waiting for noone? very easy to see both ways with no a pillar to block your vision like in a car.

[@heinzketchup4558]

@@0xsergy because there‘s always the possibility for someone to turn up, especially when it‘s dark and/or rainy? Great way to to either get run ober or crash i to someone walking their dog or something.

[@jasonrhl]

in the US you can run a red light in a car to turn right@@heinzketchup4558

[@peterb7585]

LOL love it!!!

[@ageoflove1980]

If cyclists would pay taxes appropriate to their costs to society in equal terms to car owners, the tax income would either be so low that it wont make any money after the costs of collecting it, or it would make drinving a car completely unaffordable.

[@57thorns]

In Sweden I believe that road tax , car tax and (most importantly) fuel taxes more than pay for the roads. But we also have publicly founded healthcare that is actually not gated behind a paywall, and traffic accidents and pollution is a secondary cost that is quite significant.

[@57thorns]

This is probably part of the Danish results you quote at 4:06. In the Nordic countries we could take money from our health care system to create bike infrastructure as a way so save money on health care spending. This does not apply in less developed parts of the world, where health care is paid for out of pocket, and people die because they can't afford insulin.