Should You Fight Dirty? Feat. ICY MIKE

[@SenseiSeth]

I cant help it that you didnt know how to adjust the autofocus BUB

[@bamberlamb6512]

have you been practicing eye pokes?

[@kungfujoe2136]

y'all need je... wingchung

[@PhilosoFox]

I guess it was a sneaky test to check out your capabilities of keeping a specific distance despite your opponent moving. Well, bad scenario for that in and out karateka that you are ;D

[@VictorIsSaved]

y'all forgot the best dirty fight trick, the good old fashion pocket sand

[@cold2thatuch]

unironically useful

[@kamelo2219]

pocket sand into the balls kick

[@1vbAPiYk]

OMG I have to sell bags of tactical sand

[@jestfullgremblim8002]

Sha sha sha!

[@bryantaylor1572]

God man, that bit about the rules in the street is more profound than I think you meant it to be. And it's applicable in self-defense too. "Don't introduce a weapon you don't want turned on you," holds true.

[@jasonrudolph491]

Absolutely- if you’re going to use it then really use it and keep using it and others until it’s done or don’t go there.

[@psychopathmedia]

Yeah it's an example of Mutually Assured Destruction

[@rangda_prime]

Icy Mike is completely right. MMA folks usually dismiss dirty strikes because of various reasons. In a self defense scenario where the stakes are high you do whatever you can. But it's not a secret win-button, not a substitute for skill and strength. You can train dirty techniques just like "clean" ones. The legal ramifications are always something to take into account, as well as the social ones.

[@psychopathmedia]

Law is fiction. Same police wanting to scrutinize other peoples personal ives, get away with kidnapping, extorting, robbing and murdering people (including children) for a living

[@institches2750]

People everywhere like to tell young girls, "Just kick him in the nuts!" It's terrible advice because it doesnt work! And it gives women this misconception that the groin is some kind of "off-button" that will keep them safe.

[@austiny6539]

Agreed the only definite off button is a shot to the head or the liver

[@psychopathmedia]

Plus women are never victims anyway

[@Reflectionmaterial]

It's called a last resort. The alernative is far far worse. So they might just as well attempt that instead of getting slaughtered.

[@institches2750]

It's literally never presented as a last resort. It's presented as a first resort, and often the only one. Which has the effect of leading women and girls into 1) feeling over-confident about their ability to handle a violent encounter and 2) not learning ANYTHING ELSE. It can't be a last resort if it's the only thing you know. And to be fair, most women in first world countries will never need to defend themselves from a stranger in the kind of random attack portrayed in movies. But it's bad advice that people repeat without thinking and should be mercilessly mocked as such.

[@Reflectionmaterial]

@@institches2750 what kind of women do you know that think kicking a man in the groin is a first resort during a problem? Because most women I know will try to walk away, de-escalate or try not to end up in a dangerous situation in the first place. When all those are no longer possible and they are about to get killed they might just as well try whatever instead of standing there and getting slaughtered. I have seen some dumbass krav maga training where the attacker will instantly fold up the defender touches him. Which is just unrealistic. However most people will understand that getting into any kind of physical altercation is super scary. Which is why this video just seems way off. They talk about fighting like a playground fight with bystanders, rules and pride on the line. Which most people simply do not engage in after the age of 12. Talking about dirty moves assumes there are rules which in a crisis no longer applies. The only rules that exist are the laws and they say you can do whatever is needed when someone tries to kill you. Example: in London a terrorist started to randomly stab people with knives he had taped to his wrists. One guy attacked the terrorist with a massive whale tusk he pulled off a wall. Then numerous bystanders swarmed the terrorist and held him down. A police officer then ran up, told them to let the terrorist go and back away. The moment they did that the police officer shot the terrorist multiple times at close range and killed him. Improvised weapons Multiple one one Shooting a man Is that dirty fighting??? Should they have stuck to jabbing and low kicks???

[@jc-kj8yc]

I gotta sign with Mike here for two reasons. 1) The way he uses "dirty" techniques makes sense. As he says, it's just another tool in the tool box. Using a groin shot or eye poke or even a bite to create a little space to land more effective punches, gain the upper hand in a stalemate or to set up an escape from a unfavorable position is valid imo. Sure, blinding someone completely or smashing their balls to jellow will probably get you in legal trouble, but that's not what these shots do. They hurt and they incapacitate for maybe a few seconds. That's it. I can f**k someone up way worse by just using punches and elbows. What's gonna look worse in front of a judge? A broken jaw and smashed teeth by an elbow or a black eye from a finger jab? Inflicting damage sadly is necessary most of the time if you are in a physical altercation. If you can take someone down, control them and then maybe still have a free hand to call the cops, great, that's the jackpot, but usually it gets more messy and a sore eye or bruised genitals aren't legally worse compared to a broken nose or getting choked unconscious (the latter one can get you into really big trouble depending where you are. In some countries that's considered attempted murder) 2) I get your point that "dirty" techniques can escalate a fight, but I'd rather use all options to keep myself from harm than risking serious injury. You said you'd prefer a knockout over blindness and I get where you're coming from, but I think a knockout in a self defense situation is way more scary than you present it here. I might wake up with my jaw on the sidewalk, in a hospital, because the dude kicked my head a few times for good measure or I might never wake up at all, because my head hitting the concrete killed me or put me into a coma. My point being, if you get into a physical altercation, it's either because you're an idiot who got himself into a situation he could have avoided or you're in serious danger. And as you said yourself, in serious danger you should do whatever you can to survive.

[@rgonzalo511]

If the fight escalates to something more serious, that lowers your probability of coming out safe. It's called context you can't just be trying to seriously hurt every person you get into an altercation with.

[@jc-kj8yc]

@@rgonzalo511 but you can to a degree control who you get in an altercation with. Most physical altercations can be avoided and if you get into one you couldn't avoid, although you tried every other possibility (not engaging, going away, deescalating, etc), there's a high chance that this is a situation where your well being and life are on the line. Of course context still matters. Maybe you got cornered by a really drunk dude who can barely stand, you just couldn't get away and he takes a swing. In that case defend, use appropriate violence to create an opening and then run. But it's more likely that you're about to get kidnapped, raped, killed or beaten up if you find yourself in a situation where no other option but fighting was viable. And in that case, fight for your life and use everything you can to get an edge.

[@kenpostudent702]

Umm, you know not of what you speak. As I have represented many clients in both misdemeanor and felony battery cases, a judge doesn’t view a punch differently from an eye poke. The issue is whether or not you had the privilege of self defense when you did whatever technique and whether the act was proportional and necessary to prevent the threatened harm. In most cases, strikes will be viewed as retaliation and unnecessary. The exception is if you truly are in a life or death scenario (legally defined as facing the threat of substantial bodily harm…which is a defined statutory term in most jurisdictions).

[@spookyninja4098]

Icy Mike is right = Fight Dirty when it is " Reasonable and Necessary " by Law. When someone is committed to attacking you = And you are in Fear of your life = You need to protect your life. You dont know what level of Harm this attacker is going for - You dont know if he is not satisfied with a knock out and wants to Stomp on your head 10 times until you are dead ! I know plenty of deaths that have happened from just one Sucker Punch onto concrete here is Australia. Protect your life first with " Reasonable and Necessary " Force - dont not give up your right to remain silent and work the rest out with your Lawyer present.

[@unmoving2030]

Depends. Are you a bouncer, are you constantly looking for a fight? Or a upstanding decent citizen stearing away from any violence? If the latter, do damage to get away, deal with legal later.

[@danieljessop7140]

If someone attacks me for no reason and its life and death i'm using anything and everything to win. If its just a disagreement gone sideways then probably not. I've seen plenty of street fights in NZ where its no rules.

[@ArmchairViolence]

I completely agree. If you've got good reason to believe it's life and death, go ballistic!

[@kaansengun9155]

This is just excellent. Just 1 month qgo you guys met each other and now making a video together. Big respect to Icymike, i love both of your content. Keep it up bro, much love from Turkey!

[@magnusstrongwill9364]

There is a group of people that will watch the fight with the rule being their guy wins, and jump in when their guy losses..

[@phicks7963]

Yup🤷‍♂️ had this happen to me once, got a Sobe bottle broken over my forearm

[@waxarn333]

My take on it is that this is like playing Go or something,: you cant just brute force solve for all situations, all you have to go on is your intuition about the situation and based on that make the decision if dirty fighting is an option or not. You both make the exact correct arguments for it or against it but have two different "intuitions" about the fight circumstances envisioned I think. Like one important question is, if its 50/50 and you pull out a dirty trick, does it feel like that edge for that moment would allow you to dominate the rest of the fight? If yes, then its fine since you can choose not to do any more dirty tricks while dominating, if no then you just ended up in the escalated fight where its a coinflip who gets permanent damage. Also loved the discussion, really good!

[@jasonrudolph491]

What’s the saying - Rather be judged by 12 than carried out by 6

[@Anathmatician]

This was discussed, but fighting dirty is worth the risk when it looks like you might end up being seriously harmed anyway. Getting punched in the head until you go on unconscious is not necessarily safe. People die this way all the time. Similarly, getting choked out might be OK in an organised fight where there is a referee to stop it, but in a street fight or an attack, there is no guarantee that the opponent is going to stop when you go unconscious, either because they mean to kill you or they just don't know how long you can hold someone like that before they stop breathing.

[@pedro90]

Very true 100%. I think the nuance is - when and wheres that line. Like in the example they gave, someone who doesn’t know mount escapes may think in the heat of the moment - “ just raise your hands and eye gouge them from bottom “ as a viable escape from mount. When in actuality it’s a horrible idea for various reasons. I think the main issue comes when people try to use dirty tactics INSTEAD of good technique. Usually because they don’t know it. I agree with their example a bit of A.) a fight for your life that you know is a fight for your life ( I.e. a stalker brakes into your house.) and B.) you use it as a little extra on top of already really good technique.

[@thatoneguy454c]

Yeah for sure. If some random person on the street started attacking me and I believe they are going to seriously injure/kill me I'm going to do whatever o need to do to end the fight. Even if that means permanently effecting their life. I would rather go to court and sort it out there than have my family attending my funeral.

[@IsmailAli-vb7ts]

Trust me I’ve seen enough street fights to know there aren’t any rules, maybe back in the day when there was honour but these days there ain’t none of that. That’s why you avoid them at all costs unless there is no avoiding it

[@thnzxc]

@@thatoneguy454c Exactly.

[@thnzxc]

@@IsmailAli-vb7ts Agreed, avoid at all costs.but if you're in a no escape situation, then by all means do what needs to be done to preserve yourself.

[@FightCommentary]

Saw you on Icy Mike's channel, I'm subscribing!

[@thejoojoo9999]

The street fight that have rules are mostly the street fights that you could get out of : bravery, ego, drunkenness. They are mostly consensual fights where both people have "agreed" to fight. If people are watching and would separate if something broke the "honor rules" (stand them up, no kicking, etc) it's again probably a somewhat agreed upon fight. What i mean is that in most of those situations de-escalation, sucking up your ego, saying sorry even if you're not at fault and walking/running away would have prevented the fight. This also means that they are not really self defense in my opinion. Self-defense is (imo) when you are assaulted, forced to fight and can't/don't want to escape. I believe in such situation there are no rules and you are very well justified to use most techniques. That being said the point about escalating the encounter isn't completely wrong, but i believe if you're in such a situation and loose it could very well be extremely dangerous anyway

[@Mememulelife]

The person that disliked this video clearly was just poked in the eye and couldn't see the like video.

[@xXDDKJefferyXx]

no that person isnt liking the vid just becuase teh vid was made by a semi famous channel these two idiots will get you killed flat out

[@edstringer1138]

Nobody ever remembers the lowly ear clout in dirty fighting eye gouging gets all the mentions Yet the sucker punch the ultimate dirty move is the most common by far

[@jamesmiller1038]

Great video, this is quickly becoming an awesome channel! I'm also liking how the youtube ma universe is shapping up. Completely agree that "dirty fighting" is so often over emphasised in self defence over solid grappling and striking fundamentals. This made me think of 2 things that you touched on briefly. 1. The difference between consensual street fighting and self protection. Two angry people who have started fighting is going to be a different situation from a criminal who is attempting a sexual assault/ kidnapping/trying to harm one of your family members etc. 2. Defining specific goals. What's the problem and what are we trying to do? In a street fight, both parties goals might be to "win the fight" or gain some sort of social dominance. In self protection, the goals might be completely differnet. The bad guy wants to commit a crime/ take something, they may have no interest in "fighting", and yours might be to remove you or your loved ones from that situation. Say the goal is "protect ourselves from harm". If you're being violently assaulted, is an eye gouge (e.g. to create space for a frame) necessary/ justifiable in helping you to escape? Yeah maybe. So we've protected ourselves from harm. But as you point out, if you're holding down some drunk who got a little rowdy, and game-of-thrones his face, then maybe that means prison time, in which case we haven't really achieved the goal as we've potentially caused unnecessary harm to our and our families lives.

[@ArmchairViolence]

Now you're thinking strategically! The only thing I have to add is that if someone is trying to kidnap you (as an example), and you go for eyes, biting, and groin strikes, a rational attacker would stop trying to kidnap you and leave, and that IS what would often happen. HOWEVER, it might just make the attacker angrier, and they end up coming after you harder and more violently out of a sense of revenge and pride. And there's no good way to know which will happen ahead of time, because criminals aren't always rational! But defining specific goals is 100% the correct approach to this!

[@jc-kj8yc]

This^^! And I'd consider what you call "consensual street fighting" an idiocy 98% of the time. If you get into an altercation like this, you most likely suck at self defense.

[@jamesmiller1038]

@@jc-kj8yc 100% Tactically bad, stupid and probably pretty damn immoral as well!

[@jamesmiller1038]

@@ArmchairViolence Yes good point, it's obviously a pretty difficult situation. Afaik, there is evidence that people who actively try to fight there way out of assaults generally do better than those who don't. That being said, don't take my word for it as I'm not 100%

[@thelostshadowofhanzo]

@@ArmchairViolence in a kidnap or sexual assault situation. Depending on the victim and their skills, strength and other factors as well as the situation at the time, I would say using what ever means necessary to protect yourself is what you do. So if lashing out trying to gouge eyes, strike or grab the groin or even windpipe, or biting what ever you can is what it takes then do it. Like you said it will probably make the attacker leave. But if it does make them angry like you said and and they do decide to up their aggression you have still cause damage to a sensitive easily damaged area. Even if they are angry and continued the attack either they stopped for a couple seconds because of what you did,allowing you to at least get a head start on escaping to safety, or they will be slightly hesitant attacking again. Also you have now created an injury that you can work at exploiting further. The worst case scenario they are successful on achieving what they wanted, in which case fighting back did not stop them. But you are no worse off thrn if you did nothing. Except you have either caused significant injury and marks they can be identified from and possibly collected DNA evidence. But in all honesty 99% of the time fighting back like a wild animal will stop from things going further and save you from being a victim. Criminals are lazy in thr fact they don't want to go after someone who is going to fight and cause problems and will hurt them, they want an easy target who will bearly struggle and be to weak and scare to be more trouble then they are prepared to deal with. Even if you miss the groin, eyes or windpipe, it is still sensitive areas that elicit and defensive response that can give you an opportunity to either land more strikes other places or allow you to flee for safety or even yell for help. Anything is better then nothing when it comes to this situation.

[@RedSplinter36]

Chris Haueter says it best... think street train sport. Law enforcement here (Denver Officer), and I agree with icy mike... better to have it and not need it... especially for those that choose to break rules or have no concept of rules (ala someone under the influence of a substance)... those are the "fights" I encounter... as someone said before if you're fighting any other fight you're fighting for Ego... something I remind fellow officers NOT TO DO... talk, walk, and run (or wait for back up)... but DO NOT ESCALATE THE SITUATION OVER EGO. Now in the case of a mentally unstable individual on "something"... you have to be aware of all options... including less than lethal and lethal options... it becomes a very real thing when someone chooses to not care about life (especially their own)... or worse off has no concept of life whilst under the influence... I'll always start off verbally, then attempting to subdue or control, then using "tricks" to gain access to a better position/or my tools... all the while still attempting steps one and two. We call that a force continuum delta. Levels matching levels whilst maintaining control of the situation. But dirty/deadly intent comes into play when you're automatically attempting/actively attempting to take mine or others lives... hence going straight to firearm or lethal options. Overall just train, train hard, train everything, be aware, always go home. I coach both MMA through easton here in Colorado and I teach Defensive/combative tactics as well in other classes for non-civilians. Train it all. Learn as much as possible. You cannot over train when it comes to acts of violence.

[@garywingrove6546]

When you talk about self defense, but then you talk about the unwritten “rules” of street fighting, then you’re not talking about self defense. Getting into mutual combat at a bar is not self defense. And yes, in that scenario, it would be stupid to fight dirty. But if you’re assaulted in a parking lot, then you’re talking about a legit self defense scenario. And I’m with Mike, I love the dirty stuff, but it can’t be a crutch

[@lucasvicter4671]

I agree with Icy Mike on that, if the fight is balanced, dirty fighting can give you the edge. If is a stranger (do not poke your cousin eyes out in the family barbecue), you dont really know his intentions, and you are in a struggle (not losing, but not really making progress), dirty fight is ok. Getting knockout is dangerous, specially by a stranger in a non-controled environment.

[@the_part_time_geek]

You both make excellent points in the for/against argument concerning dirty fighting. I think the final answer is, "... it depends." You have to be able to intelligently assess the situation (hard to do when getting clocked in the head), and weigh the risk/reward factors. Can you be proactively dirty to create that moment you need to end the fight clean? What is at stake, be it pride, property, health and safety, your life or the life of someone you're protecting? Can you risk staying clean if you're trying to protect a loved one? Is jail time worth winning the fight? Every situation is different, and you have to be able to accurately gauge what's at stake in the conflict, and act accordingly. It also depends on your comfort level with dirty fighting. No one's really morally opposed to a groin kick in a fight if needs must... but who's actually given thought to the ramifications of stabbing a thumb through someone's cornea, to literally burst someone's eyeball like an overstuffed grape? Are the stakes so great in the fight that you can live with yourself afterwards if that's what you have to do? More questions than answers.. that's what I do. Also, to address groin strikes and the efficacy of them... absolutely correct about the Vale Tudo mindset, and one that I started adopting later in my own martial practices. If you take a groin shot, you keep fighting. Yes, I was training combat sports, but I didn't want the combat sports mentality of take a shot, take a while to recover... primarily because I personally wasn't interested in the sports aspect. While one should never rely on the idea of, "I'll be adrenalized, I can fight through the injury," because you never know if you can IN THAT SITUATION until it happens... it would be foolish to think that the other combatant will NOT be able to adrenalize through an injury. If they can't, then awesome. But if they can, you're not at any loss, because you weren't relying on that technique to end the fight anyway. As always, you and Mike offer up some very thought provoking content. Well done. And uh... fire the camera guy. :D

[@PiethagorasTearem]

Had a smaller guy hit me in the nuts, it just made me mad and I threw him to the floor. The actual “pain” came after the fight.

[@JulianHoogendoorn]

It took me well over 5 minutes to realise there is a guy lying flat on his back in the back of the gym filming. That cracked me up :D

[@jaybruz.5688]

Mike is 100% correct, if the shit goes down the more tools you have can save your life

[@daxisperry7644]

This is why I like the gym I'm at. We're a Krav Maga school. (Yes I know, cringe) But anytime a technique gets added, our head coach pressure tests it over and over again and only adds it if it succeeds a reasonable percentage of the time. Also, he says to us all the time, "If you are a brown belt in Krav Maga, you should be able to go into an MMA, Kickboxing, or BJJ match and either win or at least be competent and comfortable there. You may lose based on training time in that specific ruleset, but if you can't Kick, Punch, Elbow, and Grapple , than no amount of groin kicks and gun disarms will help you defend yourself."

[@walterjeremiah3008]

Not the crossover we wanted. The crossover we needed.

[@Christopher_Boyd]

Have you guys watched girl street fight? Only dirty techniques allowed.

[@CaptJaipreetJoshi]

0.50 - wining in self defence situation , u mean not being a victim I 2.04 - rules versus no rules I 3.7 - no one intervenes , no one even stops . the only strategy in a road fight situation is to NOT BE A VICTIM and for that doing whatever possible is fine - ofcourse not killing someone . I find a lot of difference here between a sportsman mentality and a combatant mentality who has been in life and death situations. . Good job Sensei Seth , oss !

[@daxisperry7644]

Awesome video guys! I think the mentality of "dont risk angering your attacker" is a crucial personally. When your ego fighting, sure. But if someone is trying to move you from one location to another, your chances of surviving drop SIGNIFICANTLY. If someone is kidnapping you or moving you, they don't want an altercation at the current sight. So if you maim them to get away (while also knowing how to fight) I personally think it'll only improve your chances of survival. Just my thoughts. Awesome video!

[@thatoneleftist]

Anyone both Mike and Seth hang around with is obviously legit! Super glad to find your channel, really dig your content 💯

[@mucpougaming6092]

i like how theres just a guy in the background vibing by a punching bag the whole video

[@JingShenKuoshu]

I agree. There are obviously situations where you feel your life is in danger where it's appropriate. Good discussion guys

[@eriklindkvist7247]

Nothing wrong with poking someone in the eyes in self defense. Don’t mix up street fighting with self defense. Street fighting over a spilled beer or something equally stupid is not self defense.

[@tdawg332]

Those mike Jones eyepokes and oblique kicks are good too.

[@joelmcgill1233]

If someone is assaulting me there are no rules. To me it is a life or death and I will do whatever it takes to preserve my life.

[@AnneALias]

As a lawyer, I'm glad armchair violence understands the law generally. The other dude barely did

[@bladeofgrass96]

The only way to know how to fight Is know how to fight

[@AC57001]

for the situation icy mike described of being in a 50/50 situation and using dirty tactics to get an edge (, surely putting the time into studying sport fighting would give you that without the detriment of escalating the fight. since we all only have so much time to train, seems like a better time investment. plus, by definition it's a lot easier to spar clean rather than dirty, so i bet the practice is better quality and more realistic too just my thoughts, mike is way better at fighting than me i'm just a wrestler. meant constructively no hate

[@niscent_]

i think that some people who are thinking about dirty fighting do not even consider a fight that's not a threat to their lives. people who will walk away rather than fight over their ego. if you really take every shot possible at avoiding the confrontation, it's pretty hard to still find a fight, let alone find a not so dangerous fight...

[@2002kirbow]

"This isn't Nam, Smokie, there are rules..."

[@williamle-ed2nk]

i don't always fight dirty, but when i do my goal is to get at least one finger as deep past the sphincter as i can. on a serious note, i have seen some wild ass street fights. people being thrown into/under passing vehicles and off bridges, people who were knocked out cold then getting curb stomped, bystanders attempting to police the fight getting beaten worse than the person they stepped in to protect. all kinds of crazy shit.

[@pakuma3]

That escalating thing holds very true. A fight can have the purpose of teaching a lesson, shut someone up, asserting dominance, whatever stupid reason. It's not always a life or death situation, but if you start figuring dirty, you can unintentionally make it into one, and someone who thinks it's fighting for their life can be extremely dangerous.

[@zandersalazar858]

I love how icy Mike is over there debating whether or not he wants to blind a dude at a bar 😭

[@mikeydo9567]

Great channel, came via hard2hurt you eating a Taser. Liked and subbed. Don't think I'd try and guess whether or not some dude on top is just gonna hit me in the face a few times and "be good". That's moved from simple to aggravated bodily (which could lead to serious bodily injury or death".

[@mmurphy258]

There is a common misconception that fighting dirty ends fights, which it doesn't. The theory being that doing these techniques is a way to "short circuit" your attacker before you engage further with your follow up defense. It's also a judgment call, someone will hopefully have some techniques or skills in self defense and they can pick and choose what strikes/defenses as needed. Another thing is that even though there are more and more people training in combat, it still doesn't mean that every encounter is going to be with a mma protégé. Alot of people don't know how to fight, so there is a chance that you could defend yourself with minimal fight training. The eye gouge also is not intended to destroy someone's eye socket and win the fight. If called for, you could gouge the eye-short circuit-then follow up and attack until no longer a threat. I also believe that the eye gouge is a better suited technique for women/smaller body frames. Especially in kidnapping attempts or picking them up off their feet.

[@Kadranos]

I live my life in a way that I rarely encounter people I don't know. I don't go to bars or clubs, I don't drink in public, I don't hang out at malls or skateparks or any of that nonsense. I go grocery shopping, go to church, run other errands, sometimes help friends and family. I am also courteous and helpful, pay attention to how others are feeling and try to help everyone feel at ease when I talk (unless I'm just keeping to myself, which I mostly try to do). I don't pick fights and am quick to apologize and seek to make things better. Therefore, I have no idea why anyone would attack me, and I can only assume they want to kill me for my stuff or to more easily hurt my family (worst case scenario). So I have no intention of holding back if someone attacks me and I will immediately act to protect my life and that of my wife and children without hesitation by using whatever force is at my disposal which is most likely to guarantee complete cessation of hostilities regardless of consequences to said attacker. I don't think dirty or fair. I think end the threat by any means necessary. If such an individual is permanently maimed or worse, that's on them for attacking a man who just wants to serve God by loving his wife, raising his kids, and singing at church. Thankfully, I live in a state that tends to agree.

[@arezcraft]

The best time I think to use dirty moves is a 2v1. Cause if you take take out the first guy with an eye poke, it's now a 1v1. But you still need to know how to fight the second guy.

[@corymoore8562]

I think another aspect to taking the initiative is commitment or follow through. Either recognizing they will then use it, do it with the knowledge they will do it back and prevent their attempt, or take their weapon away before they commit further and do it to you. Position before submission applies, so you can apply it "safely" and they can't . But them the discussion becomes if you have control, you shouldn't need dirty fighting...

[@TheBoneBrew]

This is an interesting thought process didn't expect the no.

[@jonathankigozi3373]

Respectfully, in a street fight with a stranger… make it home

[@killerbeat2554]

What about a streetfight between two inexperienced fighters? Assuming I hit the nut cracker strike, wouldn't an inexperienced fighter who isn't used to getting hit be incapacitated at least long enough so i could run away?

[@maxschlegel3566]

A street-fighter's perspective. I used to see dirty fight a lot in low end fighters, but once you gout past the wannabes, dirty fighting almost completely disappears. After 15 years, its just not all that surprising. We can see it coming and can easily defend against it. And as for gifting someone your foot, just because we don't like to grapple doesn't mean we can't. A lot of street-fighters wrestled in high school. You are just gonna kick that guy in the nuts. You had better hope it works. After that level, the sucker punch is going to be the only dirty fighting you still see. And even if I could do something dirty, I usually have better options. And never escalate a situation when you don't have to. And always de-escalate when you can. On an off note: We would get the new guy expecting us to teach him some badass street-fighter techniques. We hand him a joke book and a book on stand up comedy. I've had opponents rolling on the floor laughing. That usually ends the fight.

[@Keishidojo]

Just met you both yesterday, glad I made it to the event. Fun video

[@davidegaruti2582]

Ok i think the point of "dirty fighting doesn't stop fights" is the strongest one : there would be two outcomes 1) you do a painful thing and the other guy gets off you because of pain 2) you do a painful thing and now the other guy wants to rip your head out , And knowing how submissions and pins are safer , easier to train and are also more reliably going to end the fight , Yeah i think dirty fighting doesn't have much of a place ...

[@GabrielMazzei01]

It is all about context... if the situation escalates, then you dial up the use of force...

[@gingercore69]

This reminded me of the video of the 2 soldiers fighting, one of them tried to pull guard into a guillotine i think... And the other grabbed him by the balls until he started to beg crying, and the. Got the shit beaten out of him... It was scary as hell, that was clearly escalating too far

[@thatoneguy454c]

A good kick to the nuts can definitely help in a fight. Same as a solid hard knee to the pelvic bone. People can't fight with a shattered pelvis. It all depends, however I was a correctional officer so my fights were kinda serious compared to a scuffle in the 711 parking lot. I have been in other fights as well but I guess I'm just an ass or something because I don't want to be in a fight. I want it to be over as soon as possible. MMA/BJJ with dirty fighting mixed in is the best self defense in my opinion but you need to be good at it. I don't want a fight to last long enough for anyone to say who was winning before it ended. I'm not a huge fan of eye gouging, but if that's what you need to do and you feel like they are going to cause serious harm/kill you, well hopefully you are better at gratuitous violence than they are. This guy is predicting his thoughts on dirty fighting on the though that the fight is not life or death. If some random person on the street attacks I'm it's probably best to assume they want to hurt you. That's just my opinion and every fight is different, you do you booboo

[@psychopathmedia]

So you're an aggressor that wants to maim victims when they dare to fight back? Typical state terrorist coward

[@rogue0919]

U gotta love the Sensei Seth cameo

[@snatchX626]

damn, didn't expect this crossover.

[@yossikenner882]

Groin strikes work! I sparred a guy who was whipping my ass with punches, I ducked and went for a wild upper cut which hit the balls, the guy went down. And when the cops show up, say it was a mistake.

[@guardrailbiter]

Camera (to that chair in back): "Hey baby. How you doin'? Looking gooood today."

[@Izhkoort]

In HEMA they are surprised when we do wrestling (with and without swords) that if I get hit in the groin (usually a kick) I don't even stop to check, just keep fighting. In wu shu a guy was better at forms but in sparring wasn't so precise, so he hit me like 3 times, at the third I stopped and told them to give me a minute, they didn't even noticed until that. I know I still haven't been kicked "hard enough" but still hits like that never stopped me

[@volkanphoenix5441]

There is actually a lot of philosophy involved in this. I think someone needs to write a book on why and when to do something instead of just how to do it.

[@enektama]

feel like watching this clip on a raft in deep waters, will wind speed is at 12 bf and waves have average height of 35+ meters. thank you for your work sir. :P

[@brigade911]

It's a big risk. I once fought a guy who tried to eyegouge me and bite me around the eye while I was holding him down on concrete stairs. I genuinely belive that if some other guy was in my place he would have slammed his head against the concrete stairs out of pure anger. Thankfully for both of us I just pushed him down. It's an escalation that is viewed as unethical even in the context of a fight and it enrages your opponent giving him even more drive and urge to fight back harder and try to inflict more damage to you. I would only use it in a fight that is by definition life-threatening. For example multiple attackers, a guy with a weapon already trying to hit me, someone trying to abduct me etc

[@henryc7548]

My opinion is that you should never throw a jab in a self defense situation, since throwing an eye gouge is 95% the same skill as a jab and it makes the technique 10 times more effective. As far as being able to realistically train it, throwing a jab to the face is realistically training it, if your techniques are so rigid that you can change the distance by 2 inches and open up your hand, then you need to work on being more adaptable.

[@Leo.23232]

its easier to land a jab than an eye poke, and theres less risk of injuring your fingers

[@psychopathmedia]

A real psychopath will just say "oops" and get away with it, because of their Machiavellian intuition to target a person they know nobody will have sympathy for

[@ThatJamesGuy88]

Holy 6 months old video Batman! Something to consider is the “reasonableness” of an action. If I’m a 300 pound dude hanging out at the bar, and another 300 pound dude grabs me-if I punch him in the throat causing permanent damage to his larynx and vocal chords, that’s probably not reasonable. But if I’m a 120 pound female getting grabbed by the same 300 pound dude-it could be very reasonable. Context and totality if circumstances matter.

[@mattbugg4568]

Depends if you're fighting for your life or in a sports context. If you're fighting for your life go ahead poke eyes break limbs hit vital points. If you're in a sports event it's called usage of deadly techniques and it's fround opon altho vital point strikes are Grey area where they should be categorized as deadly techniques and not used.

[@dimitriskrieg3338]

Just light spar once with gron kicks and eye jabs alowded and upload the video. you will see the hole game changing completely.if you cant punch you will not be able to eye jab,that is true,but they are a huge game changer.

[@sammyli9456]

Fighting dirty is from one's instinctive survival. It is not an intention at the time. We cannot say "should/shouldn't" on applying the dirty technique. I have been in a couple of street fights by accident, of which one happened when I had to take my friend from a detrimental circumstance. I was stuck on rules as I was an athlete; but the opponents use biting technique when clinching. It goes beyond imagination when we are in a real street fight. So, planning not to do or practicing to do is not the right way to save yourself from the crisis at the time.

[@simoneriksson8329]

I must say I am on Mikes side in this discussion... no you should not relay soly on "dirty" tecniques and they may not be the right tool in every situation. However if you are being attacked by someone who tries to punch or kick you or tries to slam you on concrete you are imho in a fight for your life ( alot of people have died when their head bounced on a hard surface after they got knockedout or even just knockedown) so if you see an oppurtunity for a "dirty" attack I think you shuld take it.

[@rgonzalo511]

But now the other guy will start to fight dirty aswell. And like Mike said dirty moves aren't as fight ending as claimed. So now the danger level of the fight remains the same or even got worse. But nothing was really gained.

[@institches2750]

@@rgonzalo511 My thoughts as well. Plus, you have to consider the opportunity cost. If you go for a "dirty move," what ELSE could you have done with that chance/motion/energy? I'd rather land a takedown than a nut-shot, or a solid hook to the jaw over an eye gouge.

[@rgonzalo511]

@@institches2750 If its petty beef and about establishing honor. Just have an honest duel get it over with. If its something serious just use it when needed dont go hunting for cheap shots.

[@spookyninja4098]

Icy Mike is right = Fight Dirty when it is " Reasonable and Necessary " by Law. When someone is committed to attacking you = And you are in Fear of your life = You need to protect your life. You dont know what level of Harm this attacker is going for - You dont know if he is not satisfied with a knock out and wants to Stomp on your head 10 times until you are dead ! I know plenty of deaths that have happened from just one Sucker Punch onto concrete here is Australia. Protect your life first with " Reasonable and Necessary " Force - dont not give up your right to remain silent and work the rest out with your Lawyer present.

[@CMLew]

Jon Jones probably has the most effective use of eye pokes. Use them as a range finding tool with added benift. Make it harder for your opponent to charge in, potentially make it uncomofrtable for enough tiem to land another strike.

[@mal3293]

Honestly any street fight i get into i would try to get it to the ground but if someone try'd something dirty like a eye poke i think i would try to out strike and make them shell up so then they couldn't try that and then take them to the ground mabye slap them around alittle bit and then let them go

[@mal3293]

Tbh mostly becuase i assume that poeple who use dirty tactics like that can't fight or only know one martial art Im just looking for control and not hurt my attacker But someone that is trained like icy mike it would be a tough time as i don't practice dirty strikes so i would probably have to come up with ways on the spot on how to avoid and gain control of the situation

[@Reflectionmaterial]

@@mal3293 is fighting legal where you live? Why do you want to take a person to the ground? Why do you want to take control of the situation? Why do you want to slap someone around a bit before letting them go? Why are you not retreating???? Why are you endangering your life by trying to fight someone????

[@mal3293]

@Reflectionmaterial Why wouldn't I want control of the situation if I'm fighting one person isn't logical to minimize the threat,when I say slap someone around I'm partiality joking but I'm not running if someone trys to fight me and cause me permanent bodily injure they are going to get at best me controlling them if they present a bigger threat like a weapon then yeah I'm breaking them to limit mobility and getting away

[@buyahondasupercub]

Head butts and soccer kicks are totally fair game and should be legal like in Rizin. I really don't get why head butts are illegal in MMA, it's just another limb to strike with

[@ArmchairViolence]

I get that they do damage but if Lethwei can do it so can MMA!

[@liamwhitby4088]

Enjoyed the video, but I was wondering, in this video mainly the context of the use of dirty fighting seems to be in "fights" which suggests some form of semi consensual violence, do you think fighting dirty is more useful in a non consensual violence "attack" type scenario or do you think the same points stand? Cheers

[@ArmchairViolence]

In terms of a blatantly criminal attack/kidnapping, I think they have a 50% chance of making the person back off because stealing your wallet (as an example) isn't worth that level of violence, and a 50% chance of offending his pride enough that he no longer wants to rob you and now wants to kill you. It's something that will probably have to be judged in the moment. It could help stop the fight but, if the fight continues, it will probably be a more violent fight.

[@robertb8673]

Yes i see. E'nuff damage to "get rid of the Danger" vs Max. damage. I guess it depends on what the law books saz in your home county

[@b.aleman8401]

I've had a guy say "Nah none of that grappling shit" as he's getting taken down... It's not like I was gonna stand him back up.

[@adamzandarski8933]

Even if you land the groin kick…. I got full on field goal kicked in the balls and I can assure once that adrenaline is going, it’s not the same as when your buddy ball taps you. I didn’t feel it, in the slightest, until like two hours later.

[@adamzandarski8933]

And idk. Maybe an eye strike can take an eye out, usually it’s not going to. If you’re pressing on my eye you’re in range for me to do much more devastating moves. I will gladly lose an eye to choke you to death. Seems a fair trade.

[@adamzandarski8933]

If fighting dirty worked you would see it more often. Simple fact is the people who would fight that way don’t have the testicular fortitude to win fights to begin with. If you’re in a life threatening altercation and you’re thinking of someone’s balls, unless it’s absolutely the only option, you’ve already lost.

[@showersdpn]

I agree an eye gouge will escalate things. That's when they go to their car for a gun! Or one of his boys is going to give him a gun.

[@bob67497]

"all the best techniques are banned in sport" Ahem- 'Punching people in the chin' would like to see you in its office.

[@capitalistraven]

Feels like a bit of context is missing which really makes the difference, and that is why the hell are you in a street fight? Both of you have made the point over and over that getting in street fights is very dumb and should be avoided, even if that means "looking weak", surrendering personal property, or literally running away. If all that's been run through and you're still in a situation where you *have* to fight it seems that going to the highest level of violence immediately is the best approach. I mean, maybe the guy "just" wants to knock you out and you know how to fight so you'll probably win.. but then a wild haymaker puts you out and the dude decides he wants a couple soccer kicks after you're down... In other words, if you're fighting for smart reasons, fighting dirty makes sense. If you're fighting for dumb reasons fighting dirty doesn't make sense.

[@tipofmitt]

I have been eye gouged and throat grabbed while in top position. Pissed me off. But arm barred them easily. Didn't lose any eye, but sucks.

[@Jedi_Jed]

“It depends!”

[@dacedebeer2697]

I've never liked to fight dirty because there are levels to the thing. Fighting dirty is fine if you're in a match to the death or some crazyness, but in the real world you would like to end the fight without having to commit murder. You can usually beat your opponent into submission, beat him into not wanting to fight anymore. But if you bite off a finger or gouge an eye it will be harder to stop the fight. If you fight respectfully it's easier to end the conflict. I actually would let people stand up after knocking them down instead of soccer kicking them as was the usual in my area. Give them an option to end it there. I've seen several fights end up in mutual self respect/lack of willingness on both parties to get hurt further. Ah Brazil in the 90s, I'm lucky I survived lol.

[@JeffForsyth]

Dude I don’t know anymore. I was 17 years old in 1987. I was 100% untrained at the time. My Moms ex slapped her. We got into it. It was purely instinct but at one point we were in the clinch. I reached around his head and pulled out a lock of hair from his head, showed it to him and then kicked him in the balls. Then did a Judo throw I saw only on Star Trek. In the end I broke his ribs and cracked his sinuses. So I totally fought dirty because I was so angry it was all instinct. Ever since then I’ve only had one altercation. That was three punches to the face and we stopped. In the end I think if you’ve gotten into a fight you’re having a bad day. True story. Second degree TKD guy was in a local bar. A guy started arguing with him over quarters on a pool table. Sucker punched the TKD guy. He goes down hits the back of his head and died. I’m not sure any fighting over pride is a good idea. If there is a sudden violent encounter then everything goes. Another stupid but true story. I’m only 5’1” and shrinking btw. It’s 1991. Again had not started training yet. A juice head of about 6’4 250 decided he was going to fight my brother who was a scrapper but really drunk at the time. I told the rhoid enhanced kid there was no way I was letting him fight my brother in his condition. So he started with me. So he’s saying how he’s going to kill me. So I told him to go ahead. I told him he better kill me because if you decide to mess you better not let me close. I told him if we fight my only goal was going to be maim him. I said if if I get close I’m going to bite your nose off, or take your eye or your ear. And you can definitely kill me but every time you look in a mirror you’ll realize that you should have left me alone tonight. He’s Friends literally dragged him away as I continued to talk shit. While this doesn’t really count as a sudden violent encounter but I feel that this level aggression had to be met without backing down. So crazy bluff worked 100%.

[@BBP081]

With regards to the "reminding them that you can do that" thing, this might not be a negative. Ramsey Dewey describes this as programming your opponent: how do you catch a leg kick? You give a flimsy non-committed leg kick first, then wait for their retaliation in kind, catch the leg and counter.

[@haydenrogers2915]

Great video

[@samiibrahim5356]

Maybe it is because I am older now, maybe because of all the injuries I have not fully recovered from or maybe because I am a family man, I just don't see myself getting into fights over pride, ego or frivolous things. The only kind of fights I would be having for the remainder of my life would be ones where someone has placed me and my loved one's lives in jeopardy. That being the case, I would not bother sugar coating the violence I would inflict on an enemy that forced me into an altercation. So, I think your giving great advise for people that get into fights over stupid, egotistical things but typically if someone attacks me in a halfhearted, sporty fighting way, I am probably just going to make them stand in the corner until their mother comes to get them.

[@stevenoconnor3256]

The problem with traditional martial arts is the lack of experience of the fighters and the fact that martial arts are mainly based on context. Traditional Japanese jiu-jitsu is modified wrestling for weapon combat. Karate, Wing Chun, and others are under the assumption that you're fighting bare-knuckle, which is why you see vertical Fist and knuckle conditioning in a lot of traditional martial arts. Also, the fact that a lot of traditional striking systems used to have some grappling in them before becoming sports-based, both traditional karate and bare-knuckle boxing used to have sweeps/throws. Judo throws work a lot better on the street than on padded floors, often it's a one shot.

[@olavdigre2062]

If it is a life and death situation, you have to do watever you can. Also, groin strikes is a good starter for a woman, to then run. But she needs to land it, or all hell will brake loose.

[@einsteinorwell]

The best time to dirty fight is if you truly believe your life is in danger or you think your attacker is trying to seriously injure you. Then it doesn't matter if you eye gouge, fish hook, tear their ear off or smash their trachea because the situation has already escalated to a dangerous level.

[@psychopathmedia]

Yeah the problem with that, is that humans are psychotic egoists and so they THINK they're the victim no matter how obviously they're the instigator

[@stoneslash]

Size plays a part. I’m 6 ft and 220. If I eye gouge a guy it’s a bad look. If my 5’6 friend does it it seems pretty reasonable. Some of this is about how it looks to the casuals standing around or investigating the situation.

[@grimbles39]

Take the UFC rulebook, tell chatGPT to invert it, then you have a realworld fight tips book

[@anonymousbosch9265]

If it’s a life and death robbery or something and you’re down without a good way out I think a good bite or eye gouge may be efficacious

[@anthonymcgaugh8506]

What is your advice for the average person who doesn't have the time, budget, will, motivation, etc. to spend months or years in fight training, but wants to do SOMETHING effective to improve their ability to protect themselves and their family from the brutal realities of a violent criminal ambush/attack? I'm thinking a few seminars a year like Craig Douglas' ECQC course, but that's likely far too intimidating for most people. Any other solutions in that arena?

[@RichardPennybags-nc9ii]

Buy a gun

[@barrysmith1202]

great points, really well covered, that i had heard a couple times before, but less well covered. yet-- Bruce lee: ''its always better to eye-strike than punch.'' Tim Larkin; ''just take an eye.'' also, memorable youtube of a guy jogging past a group of punks; one punk starts toward the jogger, jogger does an eye-strike without missing a beat; punk goes down, practically in fetal position-- may have been a staged youtube.

[@averagebare4327]

What about a different kind of dirty fighting. Like the clinch scenario; 50:50 both doing the right thing, would a wet willy work? Or whispering confusing threats into their ears. " Imma badger your sprocket"

[@genghiskhan9965]

The flying headbutt is quite effective when you are just at the squaring up stage. Try kicking shins first instead of balls lol

[@Jay-ho9io]

DIAMOND MMA. Excellent product " placement. "

[@technoshaman101]

I think this is an exceptionally difficult argument to prove one way or the other. I'm a fan of empirical evidence, yet some experiments re highly immoral right? Like is eye gouging effective and when exactly and to what degree? To really truly know, we would unfortunately need to run a real life experiment! Have multiple dudes fight it out and test our different times to use eye gouging. To make it more realistic some of the people being fought can't know they are part of the experiment, so I guess now you've got to pick fights with strangers on the street! Yeah this is a tough one, we can theorize but the dude that says he knows for sure because he's done it enough times for real to have sufficient evidence is an asshole no one else should be like... So, on moral principle I lean toward no eye gouging, but there was a fight I ended up on when I was homeless... me and a friend where just looking for a spot to squat for the night in an abandoned building. No one was laying down where we decided to try to get some rest, and out of another room came this young lady, about a foot taller than me, and had some weight to her. She marches in the room yelling and saying she's gonna kick my ass. I tell her she can have that spot, she says it's to late that's her spit and somehow I should know. She throws some punches which, with my modest martial arts training I easily block and dodge. Then she closes the distance and starts grappling, and somehow I knew by the feel of her intensity that she was serious, like deathly serious, like if she could kill me she would! And she was a LOT stronger than I would have expected. Fortunately she wasn't a skilled fighter, just intense, determined, and probably quite a bit mentally disturbed. I can't remember the moves I used exactly, this was a bit over 20 years ago, and not a time in my life I was fond of, but I remember a headlock I got out of, and I remember successfully pinning her, and choking her, and while doing so repeating, "if I stop are we done?!" She resisted multiple times but I finally had her good and she couldn't move at all, she indicated, probably by tapping and or nodding she was indeed done. I let go but I also jumped up and away when I did so I was ready just incase. She looked at me angry but discouraged, and she left. Moral of the story she was pulling hair, and trying to gouge eyes, kick in the nuts etc, I managed to successfully deter all these attacks through sufficiently solid combat skills. When I took her down the whole time some part of me was ready to do whatever I needed but I never lost track of that voice that didn't really want to hurt this person anymore than necessary. But had they been more skilled than me... shit I don't know, I may have needed some more dirty moves... but would I have succeeded...? Probably I would have tried to get out of grappling distance and run, which might have been hard in this situation we were in a dark room with a lot of junk on the floor. Heck I would have run that night had I thought of it fast enough but honestly before she was grappling with me I had underestimated her.