Should You Let Your Players Control Your RPG?

[@lithrandil290]

I personally like player agency for their characters. I love it when they make their own plans and upturn the world. But the world itself... I don't think I can give up control of that. It is, essentially, my character. And while having a character determined by committee is fun for a oneshot... I couldn't do an entire campaign with that. Though yeah having backstory locations and NPCs createdbythe players (as long as they fit the world lol) ia great fun.

[@chrisbates8906]

I love to think of it as collective storytelling

[@DesksAndDorks]

I do think that's a pretty great term.

[@bharl7226]

Me too! I always describe it to newbies as a “collaborative storytelling game”

[@DesksAndDorks]

There's a reason we rebranded a lot of our games as collaborative storytelling games!

[@Naren25]

Yeah, the thing the video is describing is more often called collaborative storytelling or collaborative worldbuilding Player agency is more commonly used to mean how much choice the players have in actual play I.e. where the referee or game master sits on the scale between sandbox and railroad

[@TalesFromElsewhereGames]

Excellent video, as always! My quick contribution to the discussion: I believe ttrpgs should provide tools and guidance as to how to involve players in the narrative and/or scene creation. Whether that's creating backstory NPCs, adding to a town, or creating flashbacks in the moment, the game should take a stance on how to approach these situations. This could be something as simple as some high-level guidance to the GM all the way to codified mechanics that provide tangible systems and benefits to doing so. There's no one option that fits all 🤠

[@DesksAndDorks]

Agreed agreed agreed!!!

[@Vpkoivisto]

This gave me an idea to let the players design the NPCs in this caravan/exploration game I'm thinking about making: I assign the roles for each (smith, healer, etc), but the players get to decide their species, gender, age, personality, and so on. I just have to figure out whether I should have each player design one NPC or have a group discussion for all of them...

[@DesksAndDorks]

Ooooooh that's a really cool! Idea. I love doing things like that that give players clearly designed roles and give them ownership of those roles. It does a lot for the game.

[@gendor5199]

I really fall in-between the Grognard way of "just simulate a world properly!" and "Story is key", and I feel that so much of roleplaying is definitely "seeing to learn", everyone but two in my gaming group was encouraged to game master after I invited them to do so, and at least one often asked me for advice, but in that way, storytelling looks really HARD, setting things up and "trimming the garden" as a good steward, it's all so huge I can't really grasp it! it feels like I need a formula to follow!

[@DesksAndDorks]

It's awesome you encourage others to gm though that is the best way to learn!

[@PvtSchlock]

I'm old and this question was something I navigated this by osmosis. I grew up in a university town and could watch older, more experienced and charismatic refs run games. I think there are hats you wear. You have to be a calculating dictator, a collaborative communicator and a world building creator. I never plot out a "story" for players to follow. Does not the sparrow follow the sower? Players will browse that which you plant according to their taste.

[@3l_Raro]

My biggest advice for GMs who love to worldbuild and plot around is to have two versions of the Gameworld: Version 1 is the one your players explore and engage with. This one will start as a gritty fantasy tale and will devolve into a water company tycoon. Version 2 is the one you pass hours think about, the one with the intricate histories and characters. You may pull from this one in order to fill up the version 1 but it has the advantage of being a more narrative/literary project than the one with the lovely murder hobos we call friends.

[@DesksAndDorks]

That's really really good advice actually.

[@-DESPERADO-]

Buddies were raiding a camp, absolutely outnumbered, THESE ASS HATS WENT AND GOT THE HILL GIANT FROM 5 SESSIONS BEFORE AND LEAD IT TO THE DAMN FORT LIKE SHREK 2!!!! I love my players, honestly was so proud, wasn’t even upset

[@DesksAndDorks]

That is honestly so so so freaking good

[@maxthieleskate]

Nothing to add - just here for the algorithm - you guys deserve the pleasantries

[@DesksAndDorks]

I am grateful for thay my friend!

[@devoteeofmediocrity821]

*I* am not!😡

[@DesksAndDorks]

Well I am grateful enough for both of us!

[@MarkLewis...]

No one has "control" in any RPG... what people have are- responsibilities. You're either going to accept them, (as a DM or player) or turn them over. Ask yourselves: "Do you all want to play a story-centric game, a character-centric game, or something in between?" Until the group decides what kind of RPG they want to play, the question of "Should you let your players control your RPG?" is meaningless.

[@baswar]

Would letting players help with a small bit of world building relating to them help? Like if you have a pc whose a cleric let them decide a practice of their order/faith which they then need to do or stick to (or actively break). Or like their home region if its in the setting they play?

[@DesksAndDorks]

That would be a perfect way of doing it. It honestly sounds like the town concept we outlined in the video which is great. On the cleric note giving players the chance to add or tweak aspects of their gods pantheon is a great way of getting extra buy in to your world.

[@The_Custos]

Yes, with few limits, and I let them know about it, but they are a liiiiiiiiiittle timid of late.

[@jriggan]

Than. It’s than that you’re looking for.

[@isaacorellana1754]

Fed boi

[@DesksAndDorks]

?

[@TwinSteel]

🥳🫂👍🏿

[@DesksAndDorks]

As always I salute you sir!

[@TwinSteel]

Congratulations on funding 🎉🎈🎊🍾👯‍♂️👯👯‍♀️

[@DesksAndDorks]

Dude I know! 20 days left too!

[@TwinSteel]

Lots of different terms in the house rule space for similar concepts - often times I see player agency in reference to their freedom to make choices that their PC can act upon - how “on rails” a session or campaign is - for freedom of the actual players to influence the game from outside the narrative, I don’t see that discussed with a specific term as often - it’s a less common but still well known house rule to spend meta currency to change the scene in some way, often minor - I’ve seen it escalate in the 5e DMG all the way to a player taking over the DM seat until someone else uses the same currency to take it - I’ve used games like The Quiet Year to build the setting with the players, but I’ve never really seen it described with a good term - clearly that game is an example of collaborative storytelling - but that term is often used in ttrpgs to refer to the act of playing the game together and doesn’t require out of narrative influence, so I think the DaD Bod should search for any official name for the idea and pitch names for this sort of concept if none already exists

[@DesksAndDorks]

@TwinSteel quiet year is a good example of player agency (though in my experience it was a little too much agency when i experienced it as a player) But it's cool to see house rules sort of rise to accommodate new palyer motions

[@Philojira]

It's interesting to me how nearly every video you and your team put out bears a frequency* of resonance to some aspect of a process i am going through, either in my head or in the building of my game system. Simpatico. i just finalized the first iteration of my game's tech and magic subsystems, and found myself in their very designs building in a strong player agency-supporting mechanic (same mechanic to support these elements of magic and tech as a duality), where the players, mid-game, can flip the game's reality field on its head.. Sounds like everyone has a big red button, but there are interesting limitations placed on their power and ways to mitigate how far they can actually go.. The magic magics and the tech techs and everything can change just like that! It'll be fascinating to see this playtested..

[@DesksAndDorks]

Hey glad we can be there to mirror the process. It does seem like more people are experimenting with player agency in games and thays a good thing. That mech system seems neat too btw!

[@Philojira]

@DesksAndDorks 🙏It is, if I do say so myself. Almost ready to let eyes other than mine see what i'm building, so maybe i could show it to you sometime. Can i drop you a contact message through your website?

[@DesksAndDorks]

@Philojira sure man! If you'd like the discord link should be public and if not the business email should be available on the contact page! If they aren't or if they've changed drop another comment and I'll get you set up!

[@Philojira]

@DesksAndDorks Awesomeness!

[@Philojira]

Dropped you an email.