Should You Submerge the Sub Paragon?

[@jamesjason3788]

i bet the guy at ninja kiwi who gave a paragon you usually get realistically when your hero is already almost level 20 a xp boost for heroes felt like a genius

[@ThatOneGuyRAR]

Although it doesn’t really provide an actual benefit, it probably would have been slightly more underwhelming if it didn’t do anything and didn’t capitalize on the energizers abilities more

[@jamesjason3788]

@@ThatOneGuyRAR i agree with that and have actually learned since that the hero xp bonus can be OP with 4 heros next to the paragon in coop

[@ChimeraAxolotl]

Paragons are good in boss events, but outside of boss events, they are sadly very flawed and not worth the price at all unless going super late game to break ur highest round record

[@kadupiv]

The hero exp buff is good for coop

[@ronfhs58]

​@@ChimeraAxolotlI'm on my way to 500 with all lvl 100 Paragons and vtsg and 9 sun temples.

[@islapcrabs]

Questions, if there’s 40-50 feral hogs charging into my backyard while my children are playing, should I submerge my sub paragon or keep it above water?

[@dope4759]

Keep it above your kiddie pool because of the pre-emptive strike. Yummy bacon.

[@matrixphijr]

The only way to deal with that scenario is to prevent it from happening, which you can do by upgrading your Inferno Towers as early as possible.

[@juxoq]

@@matrixphijrbecome the skeleton king and go to your wife (witch) and quickly create a skeleton army to protect your kids

[@matrixphijr]

@@juxoq I always wondered how there were so many…

[@Golden_Pig64]

​@@juxoqalright, next question: there are 40-50 undead skeletons charging into my backyard while my piglets are playing, should i pull the lever to redirect the trolley or not?

[@tlsgrz6194]

I think the intention was, that you can get a low level Sub Paragon relatively cheap and early and use it to save up for a better paragon. You can submerge, so it doesn't steal pops, and then unsubmerge when you need the dps, and if the game goes really late, you still get a lot of use out of the submerged level 1 Sub Paragon. 10% faster Navarch Hooks, or Doomship Bombings is a lot of dps. Another interesting test, would be the comparison between a max level unsubmerged Siegecore , and a level 1 submerged Siegecore + the equivalent cost in Subs and buffs.

[@tyler403]

I think that's pretty much what he did right? I'm assuming because he didn't give the unsubmerged one any sub supports

[@hifty7779]

submerged still pops stuff, with pre-strike and bloontonium reactor of range (though it is small)

[@BowlOSoup6661]

This is a good explanation

[@BeDatAPickle]

I think Isab used this strat in a boss battle a little while ago.

[@dahelmang]

Submerging it allows other towers to build up pops for future paragons. So that's kind of cool. Buffing them in the process is a good bonus.

[@vilhoeriksson]

Missed one scenario... you tested surface version without other towers help but tested submerged with other towers.. in late game you would have the water filled to the brim in both scenarios. I would like to know the difference when it is submerged or not with all the towers next to it in both cases.

[@brotkannschimmeln2875]

Yeah agree that's kinda unfair

[@Rip_Eric5]

I had the same problem with this video if you want it to be an accurate test The surfaced sub needs to have the same towers as the submerged

[@thecoolguy1820]

I think a good use for the submerge mod is to make the subs stronger in order to get more pops for a higher degree sub paragon,just saying

[@byclarkellis]

This is exactly what NK should be doing with all the paragons/new towers/heroes; they'll continue to refine the sub paragon, but it makes gameplay sooo much better when it's about strategy and synergy rather than pure dps.

[@dragonclaw4159]

Hi hbomb, I am that one guy talking on your twitch streams about a btd6 concept document. The document is finished. The document is 17 pages long, although for whatever reason, the letters are tiny so it would probably be several times longer if they were normal sized. Thanks!

[@Hbomb]

I'm looking forward to hear more about it next stream!

[@dragonclaw4159]

@Hbomb when is the next stream, btw? I will be busy by 12, which is why I am asking. Twitch isn't helping much in that regard.

[@Hbomb]

@@dragonclaw4159 I'll be streaming tomorrow afternoon (Monday)

[@alt2137pl]

You got the freeplay scenario wrong - 10% paragon cooldown isn't really that much because it only really buffs ace and wizard paragons. You'd never use sub army for freeplay damage, because sun avatars are still way stronger than subs with nautic siege core buff. Also the paragon is very good for high single target damage so for freeplay you should keep it attacking and place an energizer

[@ThePuppyOfProdigy]

10% on boat paragon cd is massive enough to outweigh, and a few maxed jitsus will do better dps

[@alt2137pl]

@@ThePuppyOfProdigy boat paragon ability is already short enough to be used twice per round during freeplay, then it gets locked so this buff doesn't change anyting

[@mr.fuffeyguy]

If they removed the 33% attack speed debuff and fixed the bug of it only 5x the base damage on hero’s then I think it would be worth it. Max buffed Adora has such good dps that she better than even some paragons. But a lot of her damage comes from her TSG transformation, and that is not buffed only her base damage. And her attack speed is very high as well so her dps is actually lower on single target when it’s submerged.

[@alt2137pl]

@@mr.fuffeyguy you're right, if sub paragon properly buffed adora, it would be always submerging. Imagine her getting as much pops as the vtsg with this

[@nikolapetric7089]

Honestly, the only problem I have with sub paragon is Final Strike. It should be stronger given the build-up

[@sillycatsillybilly]

the buff is honestly not worth it, no one uses heroes for main damage, no one uses submarines and you can use an energizer for ability cooldown reduce

[@ninjapenguin3804]

Vengeful temple adora?

[@TIMY212]

Paragon cooldown

[@rz6162]

​@@ninjapenguin3804how can you use adora as main damager when you literally have a vtsg

[@Grilled_cheese_master]

agreed

[@MeanWhy]

@@ninjapenguin3804 pretty sure mackans rules did a test and it turns out adora deals less damage because of the decreased attack speed the sub paragon gives

[@TryHardGamerYT]

Thanks for the video, I thought I'd be conflicted on this but you explained it really thoroughly

[@Nexit1337]

if you lack space you go Pirate Ship paragon, of you have space you still go pirate ship paragon, cause the sub paragon is very much not good 🗿

[@MadMewMew-mu3eq]

And then go level 1 sub paragon to buff the pirate ship paragon

[@Tracks2008]

@@MadMewMew-mu3eq Why waste that money. Decreasing the ability cooldown doesn't help any. It can only hook two B.A.Ds max.

[@James-ym9sv]

@@Tracks2008 What about the Doomship, magus and master builder?

[@Tracks2008]

@@James-ym9sv The Magus sucks ass and you are better off not building it in the first place. Well at least not without three other paragons to back it up. Plus the abilities are only really good when the graveyard is around 2/3 full or greater. However the Sub Paragon buffing the cooldown of the Doomship is excellent as it means you can drop the nukes more often. As for the Master Builder the only upside of the ability cooldown is using the sentries as bombs. Which the only time that will really be useful is in the super lategame. Ex. post round 200.

[@StarBlade1432]

I was very curious about this, so this was super helpful Great vid as always!

[@SUPABROS]

3:56 thing is nautic seige core buffs work with degree 1

[@johnschmidt4310]

My idea is it's own cooldown (both before and after activating), gets reduced. That way he dosnt do nothing while waiting on the missiles (and gets more), but also dosnt do a whole lot of damage

[@superburnur]

Well many forget one thing, the 5× hero damage was compensated with an attack speed debuff, but I found out that the exception is Adora, more specifically her ball of light with gain the damage increase and no penalties, wich litterally pops fbads in the late 100s , so if you though the buff wasn't worth it, try again

[@tlsgrz6194]

Just did a quick test: On Resort, Adora + Submerged lvl 1 Sub Paragon did outdamage Adora + Unsubmerged lvl 1 Sub Paragon against the test bloon. The increased damage and reduced cooldown of the ball of light really showed.

[@sahasmajety8857]

try different test against different types of moabs and super ceramics, also groups of balloons.@@tlsgrz6194

[@bezimiennyniezgothica9585]

if you have sub paragon and adora that means you also have vtsg for vengful adora and debuffs which actualy reduces dps because the 5x doesn't stack with that

[@MainEvie]

you didn't test reactor spam so the video isn't valid

[@Hbomb]

Lmao, my bad

[@aspect69547]

why is there only 1 reply???

[@aspect69547]

oh 3 now

[@cv5870]

thank u evie Paladins

[@NenixN]

Thanks

[@butterman59]

"as you can see the paragon's attack sucks because it only got to 181 by itself, no buffs" "As you can see the submerge option is better because i super god buffed all these t4/5s on top of slapping them with a lvl1 paragon buff" 😐

[@ATSM_33]

So it turns out spamming one type of tower and ultra buffing them along with the Paragon's buff outperforms just using the Paragon alone with just 9 more degrees. Shocker.

[@CarltonBank]

The test would be better if the submerged and unsubmerged both had support from other submarines and monkeys instead of just the submerged. Since both paragons cost the same, it doesnt make sense that only one tower gets massive support while the other is on its own. As a player you're going to support the submarine and not leave it on its own regardless of whether it's submerged or not. The experiment was extremely skewed in favor of the submerged.

[@magician531]

It's not an even test to have an unsubmerged solo paragon vs a submerged paragon + a sub army. Give the unsubmerged paragon a sub army as well.

[@whitegx-k5i]

unsubmerged one was degree 100 but the submerged one was degree 1 so they cost around the same

[@tyler403]

Price difference

[@magician531]

Cost isn't relevant

[@kord.bomber4884]

​@@magician531 It is cuz degree 1 paragon Can't do much

[@TheHammerGuy94]

NSC is the cheapest water option: attack mode. other paragons and lots of space for subs: submerge mode

[@HiByeIDKwhatToSay]

For nautic siege core unsubmerged u shld add ice monkes and cripple moabs like in the other 2 set ups so the test isnt rigged

[@Zeldrake]

Very comprehensive, but there's one thing that was missing in the damage test: Boss damage. Over 80% of the time someone gets a paragon, it's for a boss challenge, and paragons have lots of extra boss damage which I don't think they pass on, so it isn't a completely fair test to just compare the damage in freeplay.

[@asemahmed4796]

Basically if you are using the sub paragon as your main source of damge DONT submerge but if your going in late game submerging it will be better since its damage doesn't really do much in late game and submerging it makes ability couldowns INCREDIBLY nice but overall pretty good paragon and does require strategy. And also nice vid👍

[@foxwhistle]

Also a big note is that while Submerged, you can still activate the Final Strike ability and it retains the buffs on your Submarines. This means you could have pushed a tiny bit further on those rounds, making Submerged overall the better choice for freeplay (assuming you have the space for at least 12+ subs)

[@SUSTree55]

You missed the situation where you are using Brickell with limited water space (I'm talking about me, I do this. Hell I use her on maps without water)

[@dinosore_rs]

But does the submerged sub paragon grant its bonus boss damage to the monkeys in its radius? Or does that even matter?

[@TheMonkeydela]

If they really want to incentiveize submerging they would add the property "extra cash generated by water towers in range" something you can't get from just having it unsubmerged.

[@tooth2887]

"but they attack 30% slower" any and everyone who uses Benjamin: I see this as an absolute win.

[@nekomaige6272]

What you forgot to test, was how well the unsubmerged sub paragon plus a bunch of subs does considering you left the sub to go solo. Considering if in that scenario it would be better to have it submerged or not, you would need to test to see which does better when surrounded by subs and support.

[@VoidGamingZero]

Is that music from "Cult of the Lamb"?

[@sunbleachedangel]

yes

[@Infinity_The_First]

yes, indeed

[@VRGoofyGoober]

if you put sub paragon next to navarch, navarch gets the energizer buff

[@shmelzy82]

seeing how we are already getting 7x boosts means the village paragon is going to be insane

[@conkcreet1344]

I think they are definitely gonna have to buff this paragon. Or atleast change it

[@jonathanflanagan1504]

A degree 1 sub paragon buffing a bunch of subs around it is probably more cost-effective than a higher degree for things like boss events.

[@ChimeraAxolotl]

REALLY REALLY good video. Thank you so much!

[@dynoboi7562]

cult of lamb ost goes so hard

[@bimchik]

You should also cosider boss events, where paragons deals bonus damage to the boss

[@Bruzzzio]

Question: where did you get this idea? Cause I did a video on this weeks ago (the sub is better submerged, especially with Brickell)

[@Breakingthebane]

the cult of the lamb music is confusing my brain, great guide tho

[@shebach5221]

You forgot to take into effect having the paragon outside + having 5xx sub. In this case (assuming limited space) it'd be better to go for a non-submerged Paragon

[@crackersphdinwumbology2831]

Five months late, but I used the new mermonkey and an unsubmerged degree 40 paragon sub to absolutely wreck the lich boss fight on the cogwheel map this week. It definitely has its moments, but its active ability is THE WORST THING EVER

[@aidansedelnick4443]

Best to use the ability when submerged as the buffs are still active even while it is on countdown

[@stickey3476]

Here's a 5th (totally serious) scenario. You're doing a test to see how far a single 2-0-4 sub can go

[@mrdoggymcdog6380]

I like the background music it reminds me of cult of the lamb good video by the way

[@TheyCallMeMistaBoombastic]

it is that music

[@moonboytheawesome]

So now you have to have a sub paragon to godboost…

[@TheJelleH]

I always wondered this thanks for the testing results

[@BowlOSoup6661]

Tbh I think they should make the Submerge buff effect buccaneers too. Ap dart spam isn't worth it when you can just unsubmerge it

[@flame9486]

Nice Cult of the Lamb music

[@danieltwardowski1100]

The submerged bonus are the same regardless of the degree right? If so,if you have low watwr to work with,submerging a low degree paragon is a good offer for other dps tower ability relliant and for heros with a lot of projectiles

[@Mastblood]

I feel like this test didnt actually answer the question. You tested the paragon lvl100, but it was by itself, obviously if you are going deep into free play you would maximize all your water space and fill out the rest with subs. Also, you should have tested a degree 100 submerged as the sub paragon does passive damage with its AEO attack similar to the energizer, which scales based on paragon level. I would love to see super late game on a map like lets say Spice Island, what is the stratagy here. Do you leave it submerged and let the buff apply to all your subs? or do you Leave it up so it also can attack? Is the sub strategy actually better than spamming boats?

[@flyekitescharlie]

Can you do a video for the best farming method in 2024

[@Weirdsticka]

Can you do a test showing how much it actually helps?

[@bowserknight]

Does this paragon buff the VTSG in any way? I guess not (other than the cooldown reduction, I mean)?

[@beaugibson2951]

So pretty much only submerge it if you are in an elite boss event that has tons of water and bans all other paragons other than the sub

[@xJoeWebster]

cult of the lamb ost!

[@tacotown4598]

did you try testing d100 paragon unsubmerged AND max buffed subs?

[@giornogiovanna3811]

0:25 like anyone is gonna be able to get a sub paragon before the hero maxes out 2:47 So we just not gonna give the sub paragon a Super brittle, Absolute zero, or Brickell when he's unsubmerged?

[@Kitten479]

Adora is really the only hero that benefits from the paragon in my opinion she already does so much damage but the fact that she also gets more damage from vtsg makes her crazy

[@AshGreninjagoat]

nice so we got a new addition to the god boosting towers

[@theape6778]

does the paragon and energizer cooldown stack?

[@QuandaleDingle-zs9tp]

No they dont

[@jmanplays0]

Sub is so complicated

[@pancwake8444]

Does the buff get better with a higher degree or is it the same in lvl 1 as 100

[@ThatNerdGuy0]

I want to know for what reason would I use the ability if I can just not use it

[@chickirriko6764]

Why dont get unsumerge and get the apc or the balistic spam

[@annaairahala9462]

Does it lose the damage in a circle around it that a 5-0-0 has?

[@Shinra07]

The unsubmeged test is not fair becuase it dosn't have the sub army and support towers. The test should be with the exact same setup as the submerged, just unsubmerged. This was comparing apples to oranges

[@flightyavian]

I don't agree tbh. Sub armies become way weaker without the paragon buff and at that point any other tower would pair better spammed alongside the sub paragon. Plus you have to consider the fact that it is pretty fair actually. The submerged test doesn't care for the degree of the paragon, so it's effectively a degree 1 vs degree 100. Plus a sub army would probably want a subcom alongside them which would really hurt the performance of the paragon and would skew the test even more. No, I think this test perfectly shows what it's trying to show.

[@leeroyplaz9516]

Hay I can't join discord but can you add to your paragon Calculator were you can put the tear you want and it tells you the cheapest way to get it

[@star14604]

You forgot the scenario when you have no water

[@Superp2gamer]

No water is actually infinite water because you can fit massive amounts of military equipment inside a kiddie pool.

[@columbusross2955]

why didnt you use any debuffs for the sub paragon testing

[@ak4pro689]

What is the background music called?

[@nmotschidontwannagivemyrea8932]

Does the submerged sub paragon do radiation damage?

[@mr.mutant6432]

Can you go a test where the sub paragon is up and has brickell buffs?

[@johnmanuel332]

paragons can’t get buffs

[@publicsafetyhazard]

perhaps

[@TheMagicDragon-mm5dr]

Top path mermonkey making sub spam viable of practically any map:

[@marshallwilkinson3657]

It has the reactor thing on it bro

[@ronaldliendo6798]

Hey in my game there are only 7 monkeys who can go paragon, how do I unlock the rest of them?

[@Bagel_Chip]

You probably need to get enough xp to unlock them

[@Eathamporkes]

I haven’t got the sub paragon but I thought you didn’t need to submerge it

[@stevenschuitemaker8438]

i like to submerge it in boss event so my towers can get more pops and when the boss spawn i while un submerge it

[@Exld2241]

i feel like this could've been a short

[@MichaelSchlaicher]

Cult of the lamb music one love

[@legthieff]

finally someone noticesss

[@MichaelSchlaicher]

@@legthieff its my fav game

[@MILKYWAYTOFREEDOM]

The paragon:when I'm submerged I give heroes 3x pierce 5x damage 5x faster leveling But I reduce they're attack speed by 30% Benjamin:🗿

[@Phantasmic_Player]

Submerged also keeps the ability avaible

[@Tracks2008]

In other words never submerge it because most maps just don't have the water space.

[@Kitten479]

I wonder if you are able to stack the hero xp buff on a hero from 3 more paragons 😂

[@jamesknapp64]

Submarie submerge with Ezili HEX late game is a lot more BAD removal

[@Dhahdbjdnd]

How about no vtsg

[@holaxd199]

How i can make that paragon

[@blueclover12345]

You need to have enough exp to unlock the nautic seige cord and have 3 tier five tower on the map

[@holaxd199]

@@blueclover12345 thank you

[@SHHDADDYSWORKN]

This paragon should've stayed in development it's underwhelming imo. And I don't think it needs to be as good as navarch or doomship. Also whose running subs over ninjas let alone sun temples on water.

[@haronka]

So a unsubmerged one is weaker than a submerged one with a defense that is already Godlike without it... Interesting 🤔

[@tojitojitojitojitojitojitoji]

Sorry I haven’t been paying attention there’s a sub paragon

[@normalchannel2185]

..this was an unfair comparision. You are comparing a paragon with a paragon+shit ton of towers. A better comparision would be the buffing setup(so all BMs or APdarts) but you just change if the paragon is submerged or not. This will show what is better, the buffs applied or the damage dealt

[@Bloody375_]

you tested submerged paragon with other subs, thats obvious cause it doesnt deal dmg by itself, but shouldnt you test it with other subs when it was not submerged too? because if you submerge it and buy a lot more subs then you are spending a lot more money on your defenses so its kinda obvious that it will beat more rounds.

[@lalka413]

I think getting degree 100 paragon is more expensive than getting degree 1 with other subs

[@kilianohare1571]

I hope they buff this paragon.

[@boblybob]

What if there's no water

[@blueclover12345]

Then you don't have the sub paragon and boat paragon

[@different_stuff]

This comparison is unjustful and doesn't answer the initial question. Why did you compare paragon above water alone to a submerged paragon with other towers? Comparison should be in equal situations, so you could really know if it's better to submerge your sub or not when you play your normal game.

[@MarkDSnutts]

It gives you everything you need to know.

[@rizz-xz9zs]

True answer: MICRO

[@solitare4602]

I'd just recommend not using it. It's not worth the money or the effort, and its range is far too small for the paltry buffs it provides inside that range. I can't tell if it needs serious buffs or a total rework. It's just bad.

[@mr.nylund7941]

This is an very uneven test. You should have all the support and subs besides the lv 100 up paragon sub. This is very uneven