Should You Use the Pedal When Playing Bach?

[@landonmcafee9425]

There was definitely a difference. Both sound good. For that piece, I prefer no pedal to keep a nice, crisp, clean tone quality.

[@Shooshie128]

Your example with pedal was more lyrical, Robert. They were both excellent, but I really like the way the lines blend with hints of pedal here and there. Naturally, there is no place in Bach for holding down a pedal through an entire bar - unless it’s a fermata, and even then the resonance can spread the focus too much. But I really liked that you played it both ways. I’ve considered doing it dry 1st time through, and pedaled on the repeats, with a little more ornamentation. I started playing Bach Cello Suites on the saxophone when I was a kid. Then I transcribed the Partitas & Sonatas for Solo Violin in my twenties. I played Bach every day, and it transformed my playing, but I was always playing on wind instruments: flute sonatas, cello and violin solo sonatas, etc., and even on a Yamaha WX7 or WX5 wind controllers which allowed me to play cello or violin or anything else. When I switched to piano at age 65, and returned to full acoustic grand piano, I came to Bach with that sustained, singing quality in mind with connected melodies and very precise and expressive voicing. It required exact fingerings to make it work, but in nearly all cases I was able to get that sound without pedal. Nevertheless, once in a while I just forget that my foot is down there doing its thing, and I hear this glorious singing sound and realize that I’m pedaling again. I like it as long as I don’t do too much. I think I’d like performing the French Suites without pedal, then with pedal on the repeats. A few of the Preludes might do well with pedal, as long as I learn them first without. What do you think about that in concert, Robert?

[@aBachwardsfellow]

As an organist, I find I frequently use just about all 30 - 32 pedals for Bach - ;-)

[@JaapMurre]

As an organist I often find that holding the sustain pedal in a Bach organ piece played on the piano gives a more organ-like feeling: longer sounding notes and a type of church echo, and indeed at the expense of the muddling of melodic lines.

[@timothyjackson4653]

I hear you. I think the challenge is finding the balance between muddled and rigidly percussive.

[@DAVE121063]

To my ears, the difference was there but very subtle. The way you used the pedal enhanced the music in my opinion and if I had to choose, I would choose the pedal version. As you said, using the sustain pedal for Bach as you would for Chopin, would completely muddle the music. But you did not use it that way and neither would I. It seems to me that to play Bach authentically, you can only do that on an appropriate period instrument, one that it was intended for. A period instrument has its own particular qualities that are very different from a modern piano. All authenticity is lost straight away by playing it on a modern piano. Just not using the pedal won't do anything to bring it back or make it any more 'accurate'. On the other hand, over using the pedal would ruin it in my opinion. A modern piano is really designed to take advantage of the sustain pedal, not just to sustain individual notes (as you would with the sostenuto pedal) but to also enrich the tone with the sympathetic resonance of the other non-damped strings when the pedal is down. That's a fundamental part of the sound of the piano in my opinion. I am sure that if Bach had composed for the modern piano, he would have included its use. I think he would approve of using the pedal for his music in the way you demonstrated. The bottom line is that however you play it and on whatever instrument you use, I am sure that if the music 'touches your soul' and you and your listeners enjoy it, if it sends shivers down your spine or makes you weep, then the music is doing its job and Bach would be very happy.

[@A_Muzik]

Interesting opinion. Now what are your plans to make harpsichords more accessible to keyboard players?

[@jacquelinerubin8274]

Thank you Robert. Yes, this is a very relevant topic. The environment which you are playing is also a factor because sometimes using the pedal can dampen the clarity in a large space such as an Atrium. I use the pedal in Bach by following my ear and only using it to enhance. And I only use the pedal barely halfway down and the same fluttering or vibrating approach as you. In truth I rarely use the pedal in Bach but tend to use the pedal often the same way as you just demonstrated in Scarlatti. I’d be interested to hear what you have to say about pedaling In Scarlatti. I look at pedaling as if my ear dictates what my foot does, it’s really as natural as breathing while walking.

[@johnturner4218]

Excellent comments on this one! I heard a huge difference between the two, and they were both played well. You chose a selection that was easy to "finger connect"; but much of Bach is not so easy to do consistently. A little pedal can be used to connect so there is no silence between notes (unless that's what was written). Glenn Gould played Bach with no pedal, but went to great effort (and skill) to avoid unwanted silences or breaks in the line. The traditional argument is that the harpsichord had no pedal, thereby it is not appropriate, but remember that it had no dampers either! With dampers, sound on the piano stops immediately upon lifting the note, whereas on the harpsichord there is some natural decay - like an open guitar string. I enjoy the harpsichord, but many people tire of hearing it after a while. It makes a buzzing sound. It has a very sour sound because dissonant tones are always blending together - because there are no dampers to stop them. The modern piano has not changed fundamentally since the 1880s and has proven itself over time. I enjoy Bach on the piano with careful use of the pedal to add some color. Angela Hewett is the master IMHO.

[@dotka95]

You know, on Sunday I was thinking exactly about this topic, thank you for an answer!

[@avrumgolub2735]

With your skillful use of the pedal, playing on a modern instrument, your musicianship is evocative. Yes, pedal.

[@mamoonrashid9945]

There was definitely a difference. Both sounded good. Honestly, the preference would probably depend on the mood at the time. As a side note, I believe people should just play as it sounds good to them and according to their own interpretation, as long as they don’t stray too far and do justice to the piece and the composer.

[@dinobucz]

Awesome video Robert. I can’t count the number of times that I had wished for expert advice on Bach with pedal/no pedal. I’ll admit that I did not hear a difference with my Iphone without using headphones. My verdict: going to forgo the pedal from now on with Back! Sayonara pedal!

[@timothyjackson4653]

My piano skills are not enough to play Bach, but I think that the pedal is fitting in Bach but judiciously. I would say try to know and appreciate Bach’s mind, heart, and artistic intentions, and let intuition guide the pedal. I also think that the intrinsic nature of instruments should be respected as much as that of compositions. I think the clavichord and harpsichord were not so percussive, and that some of Bach’s pieces without the pedal on a modern piano sound rigid and too percussive for Bach’s character, but moderate and careful application of the pedal gives the music the grace that Bach would intend it to have. I think Bach would embrace the sustain pedal if he were around to experience it. It has also been said that the pedal is the soul of the piano-forte.

[@JayMSinger]

I have come around to prefer subtle pedaling in the Bach i play to obtain a cantabile line. Since I'm also currently learning a Chopin Bsllade I understand the very different use of the pedal. Bach did not always compose for a specific instrument. That's why it still moves us even on a Moog synthesizrt or vocal jazz group!

[@robertfoster6070]

When a young 5 year old Elisey Mysin played Bach’s concerto in F minor he couldn’t reach the pedals as his legs wouldn’t stretch that far. Afterwards he was informed that Bach’s music did not need much use of the pedal.

[@ahmedquereshi8957]

So, I think that the pedal helped minimize the warble in recording. Maybe you need better sound equipment. But sound equipment aside, if one can do that, it was mostly better with pedal. Only a couple of times did you blur some chords that I would not have preferred.

[@achaley4186]

In all honesty, I could not hear a ton of difference in the Bach examples, but I loved seeing your approach to the pedal.

[@moebarragan1681]

Maybe if you heard it in person you would hear the difference.

[@scrappybobbarker5224]

I liked it without the pedal better. Since there was a lot going on at once, not having the pedal helped make the notes even more defined. Plus, I think it gave it a more Bach-like baroque feel.

[@scottweaverphotovideo]

Pedal fluttering can add nice resonance, just as with Scarlatti and Mozart. One section of Bach that really benefits is the opening Grave of the C minor Partita. If Bach could play his keyboard music on our modern pianos I suspect he would take advantage of all the capabilities and not strictly limit himself.

[@cfdemoor]

Both sounded good. I think I prefer the version without pedal, but the version with pedal was good too.

[@peter5.056]

it isn't necessary, except for a few times when you need to sustain a single bass note for multiple bars. And in that case, you need the _sostenuto pedal,_ if you can pull off such split second pedal timing, that is;)

[@goettling]

Yes to pedal, if applied skillfully as you demonstrated here Sir. Without pedal sounds quite nice as well.

[@mathieudube1183]

My teacher says "No". Even with Mozart, he's like well this is K-whatever so the pedal wasn't common then, you need to do your legato with your fingers. 🤷‍♂🤣

[@vspianist]

guys, I lost a competition because I played using a pedal. i mean sure, an urtext would never tell you to use the pedal and this is obviously because bach doesn't write for instruments with a damper pedal. I followed the adjudicators advice and won first place in a competition the next year. instead of using a pedal, just try to sound as expressive as possible with a pedal. baroque isnt always about staccatoing notes without pedal, its about interpretation.

[@unclezebulon]

With pedal sounds richer, more singing, but I think I prefer the somewhat drier no-pedal version for its greater clarity (enhancing, so to speak, the mathematical beauty of Bach’s counterpoint).

[@ScruffyTubbles]

I prefer a bit of pedal, Robert. PS. My Baldwin - I know you like Baldwin. Was made in the US about 1979-1981? Is that good or not. It's an upright compact thing. How can I tell and who in the UK are specialists in renovating them (inc changing hammers etc).?

[@LivingPianosVideos]

Baldwin made great pianos throughout the 20th century. However, their quality declined prior to their bankruptcy in the early 21st century. Today, they are stencil pianos made in China: livingpianos.com/what-are-stencil-pianos/

[@dwftube]

I prefer the greater note delineation without pedal.

[@Aerospace_Education]

Felt a very minor difference. With the Pedal sounded fuller. Not necessarily better, just broader.

[@CptShelby]

So, essentially you are using the pedal for the overtones, right? How does this compare to the clavichord? Are the untouched strings free to vibrate on the clavichord or are they dampend?

[@bradgriffith8297]

I needed to use headphones to tell the difference, but I prefer Bach with pedal.

[@thepianoplayer416]

Bach did not write music specifically for the piano with 1 main melody on top. The few early pianos he encountered at the meeting with Fred the Great probably didn't have foot pedals either. The piano does have the benefit of adding pedal to make a melodic line more flowing. When you have 2 or more melodic lines overlapping, the best is quick tap on the pedal to avoid blurring other melodic lines or none at all. The other alternative is finger pedaling by holding long notes longer to overlap with shorter notes after to create the impression of using a pedal.

[@flatfingertuning727]

I played an early Fortepiano which didn't have pedals, but did have a knee-bar that served the same purpose as the damper pedal. I don't know how common such an arrangement would have been, though.

[@meadowmusicwolf]

Video idea suggestion: living pianos video but the intro improvisation never ends and is the entire video.

[@OpticaI-ch7xg]

No pedal better for me. I am used to hear this piece on the harpsichord.

[@dianelefever4975]

Yes, I hear the difference. I prefer the version without pedal. It sounds a lot more 'Bach' to me, aspecially when you keep in mind that in Bach's time there was no sustain pedal. I don't believe Bach would have wanted to create a effect similar to pedal use. Bach's music sounds very intimate and 'rational' to me - the kind of music where you don't expect the kind of 'sweetening' effect of pedal use in.

[@eydiguttason1961]

At first glance I could'nt hear difference but when you explane the difference I can see a half tone difference especially when you tell Bach's story in his time clavacords how much know we about this matters. Same to Mozart in his period

[@jasonlenthe8902]

I think the "no pedal in Bach" is too ideologically rigid of a position. People should experiment and find what works best for their interpretation. Often no pedal is necessary, but sometimes it can provide an nice enhancement.

[@michaelmorin6235]

No difference subtle great video very fun

[@Tozniak]

I hate to admit it but I could not hear much of a difference. I would think that it would be more productive in this case not to use the pedal and to focus on somehow sustaining the notes perhaps using better technique or fingering. I am a beginning student but that is my answer.

[@John_oR.]

I’d say no. You can play legato with the hands alone. It’ll give the crispness that Bach’s music deserves!

[@GlamRockCowboy]

Quie frankly, I didn't hear any difference--at least, not in THAT piece! In other instances, however, the difference might become more obvious. The final movement of Bach's "Italian Concerto," and the "Fantasy in C Minor" (BWV 906) are two such instances that come to mind. The recordings of German harpsichordist Helma Elsner seem to me to bear this out. (You can find many of her recordings on KZbin.) All in all, I'd say it would come down to a matter of personal preference. (One other example might be the Ricercar in 3 voices which begins his "Musical Offering," based on a theme given to Bach by King Frederick the Great of Prussia. It was on this particular occasion, in fact, that Bach may have tried Gottfried Silbermann's "piano" for the very first time. What Bach improvised on that occasion, of course, is the stuff legends are made of!)

[@AtomizedSound]

In general I’d say you don’t need the pedal for Bach. I could only hear a very subtle difference but if your technique is good then you won’t need the pedal.

[@evennorthug2585]

Interesting subject. In the case of Bach, the pieces are often so 'packed' that there is little room for pedaling. Or its contribution becomes so marginal that one just as well might leave it out. PS. Looks like the case holding the pedals is starting to come loose on the right side :)

[@chrislee518]

No pedal for me - but that's not to say that applies to all Bach - but this example, yes.

[@BensMusicDojo]

I believe playing with pedal significantly improved the music, but I’m coming from the guitar world. We have to have delay and reverb on everything.

[@gspianoguitar4369]

I have to say as a teacher and player most of my life the pedal, on our wonderful instrument, is a pain in the a***! You are dealing with an aspect of the instrument that is longer anywhere near the instrument that Chopin played on. After that it gets closer to the modern instrument but even in Chopin the modern instrument and pedal is often too much - 'overtone drowning' is what I describe it as! The pedal marking in Mozart Beethoven onwards are often simply unplayable on todays instruments. In Bach I cannot entertain the pedal in any way, the counterpoint is counterproductive if you add pedal. I teach my students that clarity in Bach is everything to actually hear all the voicings. As soon as pedal is in it blurs everything. I teach no pedal at all in Bach and very little in the Classical composers too. Although yes, Chopin requires it I find I am quarter / half pedalling endlessly in it. For me the pedal really comes into its own at the end of that century especially when Debussy and Ravel Satie etc used it as a sound colour, an enhancement if you like. However, saying that I seem to recall Debussy was often dissapointed / enraged when hearing others play his music because of indiscretions with the pedalling. (I have always thought we should have a pedal that 'half pedals' what we have now but obviously that cannot be done or surely somebody already would have invented it!) 😄

[@carolynk2]

Yes, there's definitely a difference. I prefer it without pedal.

[@gregjacksmusic]

No pedal is crisper. Also you have enviable pedal technique so it was hardly noticeable. For use regular players-it’s not worth the risk

[@LivingPianosVideos]

If you practice a great deal, you can achieve the smooth legato in Bach without the pedal. But this takes great care to discover fingering that enables this.

[@b.i.j.9105]

i didn't hear a difference for a majority of the piece with my eyes closed, with my eyes open i did hear a difference.

[@DandGBears]

I was taught that using the pedal with Baroque music is a big no no. You can finger pedal( play a note loud to carry through whole measure and play over or under it) but NO sustain pedal. Reason being it never existed when Bach was alive so your not being true to the composer. Also legato is slightly detached in Baroque as well. I’m trying to remember but aren’t trills played backwards from romantic era music.

[@John-boy]

I can say that the pedal does seem to wear out the heel of your sick😂 sorry I couldn’t resist

[@aBachwardsfellow]

-- if you play it correctly, there should be no need for bach-pedalling ...

[@brendaboykin3281]

Thank you, Maestro 🌹🌹🌹🌹 I guess I'm pretty un/undersophisticated. I noticed the diff only because I watched your feet.🤔😐🤔

[@theclaverman]

No, no, no and absolutely no! No pedal when playing Bach. The pedal does absolutely terrible things to the articulation.

[@beethovensg]

It would seem to this poor soul, that if Bach had ten fingers and no pedal and requests holding tied notes, this should be accomplished with technique and knowledge of the anatomy. If the interval is physically impossible for anyone, then Bach riddle perpetuates eternally