Should Yu-Gi-Oh have diverse Formats?

[@mro7432]

I love this format tbh, I don't want everyone to play the same shit over and over again

[@angel-memeroftheisles]

Totally agree

[@MrMintyfreshsmell]

I don't understand what's wrong with having variety. Variety is the spice of life and seeing the same 3 decks over and over is painful.

[@Short_Bloom]

Different formats reward different skills. In my view, a lot of people are upset because the skills that they are good at aren't being rewarded by the conditions of the format (This isnt to say they are wrong to be upset). Wide formats like this often disproportionately reward skills such as adaptation and versatility. This also applies to the decks being played. Rescue Ace did really well at Indy in part because of how adaptable the strategy is. Personally, I love wide formats like this one. Because it opens up an avenue for the thing that I love most about the game. Which is the ability to express oneself through the decks that they love.

[@PhyYuGiOh]

I do believe that Rescue-ACE will evetually narrow down this format because it's so adaptable, but at the current moment for YCS Indy, there were actually 20 playable decks that all could have topped. "Versatility and Adaptation" isn't a skill when there is nothing to adapt to, like I mentioned in the video, there is no defining part about this format, just twenty different decks. Maybe the only defining thing about the format was Rescue-ACE, which PAK prepared for. But you're totally right, I love the fact that anyone can play anything right now. Playing Fur Hire Runick today!

[@renaldyhaen]

@@PhyYuGiOh cannot agree, maybe this is the example of "cannot adapt". In Diverse META is not about auto-lose or win against a certain deck or cards. But we should use percentage as approach. We should analyse the chance of our deck against those different decks there. Sometimes your deck is good in certain duel, sometimes 50:50, or sometimes it is bad. You can choose some non-engine to fix your weakness. Or if you find the non-engine cannot fix your problem because there are too many bad match up, maybe it is okay to use another deck with higher possibility to win. . You're all too focus to the cards only. But in paper, there are other skill like 'intimidation' with face gimmick or gesture. Because you know, player with more experience usually more confidence but played with less experience usually less confidence, easy to intimidated, and make some misplay.

[@angel-memeroftheisles]

I am fine with this format. Lot of decks, lot of cards you can play, lot of possibilities. And now that there aren't busted decks anymore even below rogue stuff can result to be playable if piloted well

[@cNogz3]

I think we can admit at least that this is gonna be a really good time wizard format it gives me edison vibes with the fact that there’s just like 50 playable staple cards and multiple types of deck some combo heavy some mid range and some straight up grind u out

[@cNogz3]

I also just really think that since this is like the first ycs of this format people are trying a ton of things we saw clearly rescue ace was really good either people will be able to prepare and it will slow down just like unchained did or it will start to dominate the format I think the diversity puts yugioh in a great place

[@shawnjavery]

​@@cNogz3the thing is you can't really counter race like you could with unchained. You can adapt to it a bit but the deck has a ton of room to adapt in return. Its probably going to go to 50% representation with time or so, not go down.

[@BusnelliR]

This is a great format. It has many of the elements that players list when explaining why they play 2010 Time Wizard format. Excellent video, sir.

[@ASoldierify]

I'm surprised no one is mentioning that side decking has become lazy with mostly blow outs/floodgates and less cards that actually cover decks weaknesses of the past formats. This format requires significantly more indept thought for what cards to Side as well as quantities.

[@loon1994]

I came up in the HAT format, and having played such a diverse format at a store that had 50 or so rotating faces. The largest locals tournament was a 4th of july box tournament with 30 players. in my opinion, you have to look at the mechanics in a macro, not the exact decks. This is because you either have good match ups with certain mechanics and bad match ups to others (do not focus too deck specific here) and you build your main deck as a reactive deck that protects your strategy without trying to overly disrupt (I follow a 3-2-1 rule for hand traps 3x cards 2y cards and 1z card) and those tend to be the cards I mess with in siding because those also tend to be the tech cards you tailor for the format anyways, and if you guess bad, they might as well be tossed for games 2 and 3

[@valrik16]

I actually think this is how it should be for YuGiOh

[@betterincomebetterlife7863]

I 100% agree.

[@bladerdj3503]

Yeah man it is like in the anime where anyone could have anything xD

[@KhristianBolano]

Formats like this either end up being dominated by a combo deck that can play around everything (unlikely) or tend to narrow down to the most adaptable AND strong deck core of the format. AKA the deck that has the most positive matchup overall. You HAVE to take gambles as well in those types of formats. Yeah pro players don't like this because they usually get consistent results because of preparing for the format with non-engine, but most of the time a lot of people do that anyway in the end so the best player usually wins despite all the techs and so on and so forth. I just believe too many people try to make a science out of yugioh, where luck is always involved in nature. This is the type of format where you win against the opponent's deck rather than the opponent's non-engine and this is good.

[@ThePheonixOfThe6]

Now im no expert, but im trying recently to become a competitive player. However i am somewhat still into competitive fighting games as well, tekken specifically. There was a point in time, and the argument is still made today, that there were/is too many viable characters, making matchup knowledge paramount and cumbersome to learn. The difference in FGs is their limiting resource is you the player and your characters of choice. In yugioh, well... the choices and techs and interactions are nigh infinite and attempting to account for these things from the standard competitive view of preparing for the best decks just doesnt work for this particular format. Personally i just think the format still needs to marinate and develop, the pros being hasty in their judgements. Btw i was the random "fan" at LA regionals. Your stuff is great. Keep it up. Especially the tear vid

[@PhyYuGiOh]

Hahaha thanks, I do remember! Thanks for sticking with it!

[@blazeseraz8330]

Hi! I really liked your analysis and deep dive into the format, I agree with multiple of your points and also would like to sum up something that has been on my mind lately. As for YCS indi, after listening to Pak's thoughts, while I sympathize with him and understand his frustrations, It seems that he made an error in judgment not only in his deck choice but in the way he tested. Paraphrasing, he said he played for hours upon hours against the decks that he believed were the best choices, being Rescue Ace (RA), Tearlament, Purrely, and Floondereeze (this last one I can't remember for sure but if not put any other deck here). However, he also said that there were too many choices and there was no best deck, so, after seeing the event and what transpired what could he have done differently? Well, the choice was not what it was better against a set of 3 to 5 good decks, but, what could be a more round choice that no matter the match, it has some kind of advantage, this by being able to play mostly generic stuff, play better around that generic stuff, and by being more flexible in their game plan. Therefore the correct choice was in fact: RA, simply because it checked all of those marks better than any other deck, yes, it was a "safe choice" but sometimes the safe choice is the correct one. RA while it had a hard match-up against Purrely, is clearly strong against anything else, it played better around most things, heck, now with the sinful spoils package it would only lose to a combination of Imper+Ash. Also, it could keep things like both TTTs dead in hand, also it would mostly nullify Nibiru and Droll. Ah and now with the synchro combo, things like main Feather Duster or Evenly would not have mattered. So, what's next for the format? For a YCS level, probably things will be getting around RA, the deck has many advantages and it feels stronger than anything else. But, honestly, there are still things like Mannadium and Tearlament that could in fact be better options for the Next YCS since the target is in RA back and not them but, the situation of many people going as wide and broad in their approach of deckbuildng as possible could still not fizzled out by then, so maybe we will see another RA dominance in top cut.

[@eondrache7786]

What I'm hearing is pros want cards that are 100% going to be good. But pros also say we cant have things like Maxx C... but want a hand trap that is 100% useful.... pros seem like little babies to me.

[@halodragonmaster]

Maxx C isn't 100% good. Against certain decks (Floo for example, Plant for another) it's entirely worthless or could have you decked out because you don't have the right non-engine. But on top of that, the card itself just isn't healthy for the game in that you either play into it and give your opponent ridiculous advantage or just skip your turn.

[@renaldyhaen]

​@@halodragonmaster But TCG Pros really like a deck that can full combo and relying too much to it, and it always bad against Maxx "C". Why always combo? Because this kind of deck can give more consistent gameplan. Yes they can play control deck to avoid the Maxx "C" downside, but control deck in YGO is inconsistent. Inconsistent here because they cannot setup the same interaction, you always need an adaptation depending what you draw.

[@1stCallipostle]

​@@halodragonmasterIt's at 3 in 2/3 formats my guy. It smells more and more like it might be the necessary evil we need in the third sometimes if we want to preserve both diversity and going second

[@brago900]

Knowing how to adapt to the unexpected is also a valuable skill that any professional needs. If someone doesn't have it, maybe they are not as good as they thought.

[@PhyYuGiOh]

Absolutely! However the point is that when entering a tournament, the only thing that is truly out of your control is the decks you play against. You can have a good matchup and build your deck so that it's solid against 90% of the field. However say you play against the 10% of decks you get unlucky, lose and are out quickly, with that portion being out of your control. When in a wide format those numbers get skewed to 70-30. In a locals setting, I love wide formats because I can play any deck that I want and it's playable. For a 12 round tournament where I can only lose twice it is BRUTAL.

[@brago900]

@@PhyYuGiOh As I said, if you are not able to adapt to the situation, you do not deserve to win. It is a card game which by default entails a high percentage of randomness and winning despite that factor is what makes you a better player. If you are not able to win a disadvantageous matchup you cannot say that you are genuinely better than your opponent and therefore no more deserving of winning than your opponent. Furthermore, the side deck was created precisely to prepare all the situational patches that your deck needs.

[@vla1ne]

personally, the "non engine" cards that i run are built around my worst matchups. if my deck can beat a deck with in-engine cards, then my "non engine" focus is usually on the decks that i have the worst matchups against. for example, while running mikanko, i mostly side for purrley and labrynth because those decks often give me the most trouble. personally, i don't mind at all when there are so many decks. sure it's more "competitive" to play just a 2-3 deck format, but it is absolutely amazing as a person who enjoys the absolute variance in this game, to see so many different kinds of decks have a clear shot at winning. yeah, some rogue player might find a variant that breaks through the top tier in smaller formats, but compare the two or three rogue tops, to the insanity of 15 different decks making it into the top cut. it is arguably even better for the game optics wise, because players see so many decks, and think "i can run something i enjoy, in the way that i enjoy playing it, and still have a shot at topping (true or not, that's the image it presents)"

[@Nether2342]

“If your cards are only useful half the time you’re only winning half the games“ is a very yugioh specific mentality. I play all of the big 3 tcg competitively and in ptcg and mtg you don’t expect to have an exact answer immediately available for anything your opponent might do, but you rely on sideboarded games and general play skill to pick up enough wins to counteract having dead cards in bad match-ups.

[@PhyYuGiOh]

Completely agree, a bit in the weeds with that one ngl

[@michaelmorales1602]

But those games are also significantly slower than Yu-Gi-Oh!. You don't get to wait a few turns to draw better cards because the game will be over by the time that happens.

[@choco699]

Pro players love things like tear 0, but also hate it, but also hate it when there isn’t a tier 0. People want things to be diverse and free, pro’s want the meta to be predictable but not dominant. Pro’s want one card to win every matchup, casuals want strategy to beat a matchup. This means it is impossible to make everyone happy, and I think there is merit to keeping this format as a template for the future. We have so many generic cards that old decks can win a few matches, modular decks can be persistent, restrictive decks would probably be the most powerful. It’s a good template.

[@nedofthedead3604]

I like diverse formats. I wanna see people building different decks and using different playstyles, instead of just 1 or 2 super good decks that nothing else can keep up with like what we saw with Tear and Kash.

[@JorgeGarcia-rc4zi]

I think the problem is cards like thrust that allow for random normally unsearchable one of utility one ofs being able to be mained at no cost to consistency. I dont like cards that punish you for trying to interact with your opponent.

[@Jerry.Luna63]

Pak is just bitchin he didn’t do well at the YCS. Variety is the spice of life, and ultimately Yugioh involves luck and chance

[@1stCallipostle]

God forbid we play the game with the dynamics it was designed to have

[@txkyoaes5743]

Dynamics and variables are two different things though, the way the modern game works means you probably don’t even end up losing because you misplayed. But you happen to lose to random things like blowout cards that you have no space or time to prepare for.

[@1stCallipostle]

@@txkyoaes5743 The game was largely designed with the idea that you indeed don't know exactly what you're up against. Like if we want to know exactly what the opponent is playing, we might as well just look through each other's decks at this point We aren't far from it

[@txkyoaes5743]

@@1stCallipostle i agree that the game was definitely designed to allow for different Strats, but I don’t think modern yugioh is well accustomed for diverse formats since the game often ends within 3-4 turns and is full of blowout cards like D-barrier and decks like rikka which functionally ftk you if you’re unprepared for them/ open slightly suboptimally.

[@Lilium-Irene]

Ocg is always 20 decks format tho

[@PhyYuGiOh]

Currently R-ACE Sinful Spoils is definitively the best deck with 40% top cut representation. Probably the same here and the format will correct itself, but an incorrect statement imo, considering the last few months were RACE purrely and tear

[@Lilium-Irene]

@@PhyYuGiOh Race, purrely, labrynth, pendulum, runick, branded, fire king, centurion...every deck have a chance to win, so actually diversity.

[@ScootaGray]

The fact there has only ever been 3 to 5 viable decks each format doesn’t mean that’s how the game was SUPPOSED to be. “Pros” we’re basically getting easy mode formats before this point and now the game has reached its full potential and is diverse as a game with 11000+ cards should be.

[@renaldyhaen]

Easy mode because a lot of players cannot optimize their deck or they cannot play the best decks, because they're too expensive to get.

[@PhyYuGiOh]

I don’t believe that’s Easy Mode for Pros, people attending these big events don’t have pricing problems to build their decks. Once you get to Round 3 you are expected to play against certain decks. I agree that I love diverse formats at the local level, freedom of choice is super liberating, but in big events, impossible to build for.

[@ScootaGray]

@@PhyYuGiOh i get it's impossible to build against every deck you could potentially come up against but again just because the game has been that way in the past doesn't mean that's how it's supposed to be(pros want only a couple of known decks in the final rounds so they can side against them with ease, this is wanting easy mode competitions) Rogue is a thing in Yu-Gi-Oh for a reason, it's supposed to catch people that choose to play meta off guard. Rogue is now just finally allowed to flourish ALONG SIDE the meta and be an actual threat.

[@jzwart4588]

me personaly likes a format that is diversed like this specialy if you can play a deck you like and be able to top with it even tho i do get where pro players come from of wanting a format thats only like small amount of decks so they only have to focus on those matchs ups and building there decks and side decks for those match ups specific. this like diversity does make me want to come back to competive yugioh. me never liked tier 0 formats me like quited competive yugioh / yugioh itself during tier 0 tearlament format i do get why that deck was good i just hated how it made you feel you have to play that deck to even be able to compete back than

[@renaldyhaen]

Just because your non-engine card cannot stop your opponent completely. Doesn't mean this is bad. I think "a little chance" in enough to give more opportunity to win, especially they more skilled than their opponent......aaaaaanyaway....I hate the arrogancy even after they lose. Calling other "not skilled" after they lose in this format is really disgusting. That's why I hope this format never changes forever. . If we talking about skill, I think this format is better than randomly draw the biggest counter card because we already know what opponent will play. Or when our opponent play nonoptimal deck because they're too poor to buy the good decks. . In the end, the names in top cut now can considered as "Pro-player" too in this new format. This title isn't limited to a certain group only. So, it is okay if we got new "pro-player" to replace the old one. Because in games, I think it is common to see the new faces and the old one gone after 5 years or more. This is more than okay to sacrifice a someone ego to save an entire game.

[@bladerdj3503]

Its about time we leave the time of playing a Combo Script and move from ONLY predicting what stuff will come due to the meta expected. I felt Yugiih has become a game of All in Combolists rather than having backup strategies. Its all or nothing and thats the biggest problem between this and schoolyard Yugioh.

[@DirtCheapFU]

Buzz topic discussion. Outside of the social media and top tier events. The mass majority dont care as long they dont have to be forced to play overly expensive decks just to win at locals. lol Some people just want to have fun, win a mat and maybe a booster box. Most top tier players dont even pay for their decks. Thankfully its not as publicly open as MTG where they have deck rental sites.

[@geoffschannel]

Of course the super serious competition players are the one having the least fun, like bro if you want to be serious go to work.

[@frankwest5388]

I think wether you like or dislike the format depends on either if you prefer to play tournaments over singular matches or if you prefer to stick to a deck to master during a format over switching it up constantly. I personally am a non tournament player, for whom the fun comes of trying many different strategies and switching things up after a few games and doing something else. So, I dislike it if formats center around one to three decks or strategies. It makes things more interesting. However if I were someone that cares about being seen as the best, this format would be horrible, since there isn’t a clear answer to work around/towards. If the format is too diverse, reliability becomes an issue and every choice, both in deck building and playing becomes much more of a gamble. A year ago I wouldn’t have understood the tournament player perspective on this. But ever since I got involved in the Kuchen fan format and played in their small tournaments, I started to realize that having some centralizing forces isn’t that bad. I still prefer it if some cards are just silver bullets rather than universal answers, but I get it now

[@jakeehwilliams8820]

Best format ever right now

[@Avermra]

I think AGOV's power creep more or less demonstrated the elephant in the room that in most cases, if you don't open 1-2 going second cards you're not going to win a game going second. Even "rogue" or below decks can make a youtube video of a 1-2 card combo into 50 negates nowadays if they are allowed to do everything, so now instead of 3-4 decks doing their pseudo FTK going first consistently that requires 2 non engine to crack all different from one another, you have 10 decks doing their pseudo FTK that require different non engines to crack. A lot of times i feel the "casual" players like this just to "stick it to the pros/tryhards/whatever", but I'd like the game to be a bit more controlled (i play both meta and pet decks, so I hear both of you) Maybe we need to revise the rules a bit. The variance will go down significantly if both players skip their first draw phases instead of player going first only, but player going second draw their 6th card as their opening hand.

[@PhyYuGiOh]

I wish the going second player had a mulligan, just me though!

[@MrJuan_Vzla]

Complaining about deck diversity in a game with no set rotation? They are playing the wrong game.

[@opinionpaladin6007]

I run Harpie/Tri-brigades in a post Simorgh link world. I think having fun is most important. This format limiting your deck choices seems lame

[@xrobot77]

Pak just seeme annoyed he wasnt able to play well and deck build correctly for playing against the field

[@johnathonrouse7581]

A good format has 3-4 big time meta decks and 4-6 main rogue decks. T.o.s.s was peak yugioh

[@PhyYuGiOh]

Mega agree

[@madnessends2477]

Basically a bunch of pros crying that they can’t dominate as easily where there is actual variety in the game. Incredibly embarrassing. If you want to predict what your opponent will play, may I suggest playing chess?

[@PhyYuGiOh]

I don’t think they’re mad about being to dominate EASILY. Rather that random chance hits more often. Pro players won’t be quitting for Chess anytime soon, these guys are invested for the same reasons you guys are, friends, social-life, they just do it in a different way. In a similar way how we complain about a small format they look at us like the crybabies, lol.

[@madnessends2477]

⁠​⁠​⁠@@PhyYuGiOh​​⁠they are complaining about predictability, bc as corny as it sounds, they only care about winning, not about how healthy and well-designed the game is overall. They want only three decks to be viable so they can have the boil the meta down to its core components so they can have it down to a science. But thats not what yugioh is, its not about pure strategy, otherwise konami could easily stop printing new cards and just perfect the existing meta. Look at chess, that game is truly about strategy, there is a reason they don’t drop new chess pieces each month. Yugioh is about about having tons of different games, and playstyles. My favorite part of going to an event is seeing all the different decks ppl play, and how they work. To see ppl maximize the potential of their decks, not just rely on unbalanced, overpowered decks like kashtira and tearlaments in their prime. Look at how self-centered and disrespectful the complaint that its about “random chance” is. Did that player that beat them with a “random deck” not put in effort into their deckbuilding? Do they think they also didn’t spend a lot of time thinking over which cards to play or not? Why is their win only attributed to “random chance”? They beat a top meta deck, but apparently it doesn’t count bc its a relatively obscure deck? Its only really competitive if its one of the three decks they’ve studied to exhaustion? There is a reason why the ONLY ppl I’ve seen complaining about this are top players, the overwhelming majority of the community loves variety. So I think its clear which perspective should be given priority, in my opinion.

[@DJStriker106]

I agree with Pak and pro players (I’m not a pro I’ve only ever been to 1 YCS). Preparing for events is maddening. I’ve been preparing for a box tournament for the past 2 weeks. I have come to the realization that I’m just going to straight up lose to certain matchups because I don’t have the room in my deck for all the cards needed to deal with every deck. So no I just have to cross my fingers and hope I don’t run into Infernbole.

[@ThePheonixOfThe6]

Infernoble not that bad bro. You just need 3 hand traps minimum to prevent full combo or lava golem. -infernoble player

[@DigiEvoluido]

Most infernoble players are brain dead, they will combo non stop and lose to a lava golem or sphere mode. -infernoble player

[@stuckmeister7750]

I mean yeah, a competent infernoble player is almost impossible to beat if they win the die roll.

[@Sovereign-kh4ng]

You are forgetting that ALL those decks listed there either; - Have no real identity because Konami have run out of ideas (I mean, how Kashtira is not offensive to Hindus, I will never know) - Have to break the game is some fashion through mechanics. - Kashtira lock out your opponent (Just hyper-boosted Ojamas) - Runick let you play tons of Quick-Play spell cards that can't be responded to easily. One of my best MD victories was cursed seal on Runick Fountain and they quit. - Drytron don't follow the usual ritual mechanic at all - Flooeandereeze special summon spam - Spright have a lack of cost to their cards - Puurely XYZ off one card and a spell, making it considerably easier to XYZ with them - Branded all fusion summon from the deck It's these little cheats in decks that has sadly ruined the game for me. Rules are rules and they shouldn't be bent so Konami can make a quick buck. There needs to be a lack of cards that break established mechanics in the game to make the game feel fair, otherwise what's the point of having rules? Most of these decks rely on 1 and 2 utterly busted cards to win the game.

[@1stCallipostle]

Since the concept of archetypes became a thing, most good archetypes have been about choosing which rules you don't want to follow. If you didn't see this coming 15 years ago, I don't know what to tell you. P.S: I don't think there's been a single good ritual deck in history that actually plays rituals "as intended" (drawing into both parts of the equation)

[@AkiRa22084]

This format sounds awesome. Why do "good" players feel entitled to know what cards the enemy will have in game one?

[@170skeith]

Casual players can play whatever they want they're going to complain about any format because their 60 card dark magician anime deck will never win a competitive event

[@NotControlledByMillipedes]

You get to fight people who arent playing the exact same decks 100% of the time? TERRIBLE

[@kaueleao9957]

formats with fewer decks are objectively better, ppl who like diverse formats arent competitive anyways, why do they care of YCSes pie chart have more than 3 decks or not?

[@1stCallipostle]

It is boring as shit to watch formats that have like 2 matchups X vs Y, and the X vs X mirror match. Maybe you want to play a sterile, stale game with no creativity or off meta presence, but nobody wants to watch you do it

[@kaleido9631]

Competitive is overrated. Yugioh is more fun when you play casual with house rules. MY 2 CENTS.

[@PhyYuGiOh]

Pack Bulk Draft is peak yugioh I’m sorry

[@kaleido9631]

@@PhyYuGiOh that is valid

[@kaleido9631]

@@PhyYuGiOh but that still is not meta.

[@3Vladimir]

Zone locking is easy, discarding cards out of hands is becoming accepted again and each new card that comes out now has like 50 different respones. Stop the power creep!

[@shwedoo-6035]

A format with 30 decks is fun until you run out of luck. Losing the game immediately to a random floodgate or blowout that you couldn't realistically prepare for is what casual players want. Such formats make your preparation meaningless. Draw the out or lose, how fun.

[@ChuuniKaede]

Wide formats suck and are anti competitive