Shout Chorus - Big Band Arranging SECRETS REVEALED

[@stevenlaurent4817]

I confess, in all my years playing lead trumpet, I never noticed if the 4th (or 5th) trumpet was on the octave below me as I got into the upper range. For me, what seemed most important, the most helpful thing for high register playing was having a 2nd trumpet that played up to me. Otherwise, there seemed to be a hole in the trumpet section, and I would instinctively work harder trying to play with a bigger sound to fill that hole. And that made for a long night. Thank you for these video lessons, Elliot. Really helpful, and looking forward to watching more of them!

[@PandemoniumBigBand]

You are right, having a strong section supporting you is very important. Also, not all big band composers write 4th trumpet an octave below lead. But in my experience it is usually the best voicing to use (when the trumpets are high enough).

[@richardwilliamsmusic]

That's a great idea about the octave trumpets, and comparing the altos to trumpet range, and tenors to trombone. I also like some of the other situations you mentioned like if the trumpets are way high, then you can fill in some notes with the altos to help. Great work! Can't wait to watch another!

[@natheniel]

i love your videos. you explained everything in the topic in a very concise and easy to understand manner. love your music too!

[@thomasherrera6587]

Excellent points! As a bass trombonist who sometimes doubles on tenor, yeah I'm not out to emulate a lead trumpet!

[@PandemoniumBigBand]

Yes, yes. You get it!

[@thomasherrera6587]

@@PandemoniumBigBand 🤣

[@kaillimb1949]

JUST FOUND YOUR CHANNEL YESTERDAY!!!! These tutorials are seriously very helpful, every single one of them, for a while I've wanted to make multitracks for myself and as a Trumpet player myself, I see this channel as such an inspiration, hope to rise to the big leagues like you some day. Thanks for pumping out these videos I love them all! While I'm here typing this comment I'm reminded of a video a little bit ago where you mentioned something of writing jazz lines. It would be very helpful if you could continue that discussion in another video!

[@PandemoniumBigBand]

I am so glad you are enjoying the lessons! You should definitely make multitrack recordings of yourself. It’s a really rewarding project, and not necessarily as tough as it looks.

[@krthr]

Is no one going to address that tasty version of Pure Imagination or was everyone just listening super carefully to the words? 😏

[@jayramsey690]

I’d like to hear more about how you use saxes to fill in between tpts and tbns, when the trumpet triad goes too high to keep a third between 1st tbn and 4th tpt. Thanks!

[@davidhuntsinger128]

What a great lesson on voicing the shout chorus. You answered every basic question I had. Particularly valuable was dealing with the spread between trumpets and trombones when trumpets are too high for the bones to be voiced exactly an octave below. Also, doubling a very high trumpet passage with the 4th trumpet an octave below to help intonation perception. THANK YOU!

[@PandemoniumBigBand]

I am glad this helped! It’s exactly what I do when I’m arranging music.

[@tsmiguel]

So much fun to follow your videos. There are wonderfull and motivsting. I love when you smile haha 😊

[@nbevan3]

I am interested in your view to whether a shout chorus NEEDS a melody. Take your letter K in the piece that you use as an example here; there is interest but I don’t ‘feel’ myself whistling the tune there in the same way as your letter J

[@wpbs]

Again a great video! Could you explain in a next video something about writing for the rhythm section? When are just chords sufficient / what to write for drums (drum hits vs accents from the horns etc) ...

[@PandemoniumBigBand]

That is a great topic. I’ll definitely cover it soon.

[@jm22AS]

Great Video as always! I really love your honesty ("illusion of being in tune" ^^). I'm playing the Tenor saxophone in an Amateur Bigband over here in Germany and the biggest problem writing is the limited range of the Brass players; especially voicing Trombones with Lead lower than F above bass clef on the highest note of the Melody line, because you want to avoid colour tones in bass register. If you could tell us some rules of thumbs about low register voicings, or even give some advice when writing for non-professional or lesser skilled players it would be awesome.

[@PandemoniumBigBand]

That is a great topic for a future video. Thanks for the idea!

[@bartekbarwicki9276]

Awesome! I'm really thankful for this lessons, I learned a lot, but could you do a video about arranging for the rhythm section? I'm a guitar player and I don't know how to write e.g. the drum part and I would love to hear your tips about it. Thanks!

[@PandemoniumBigBand]

That is a really good idea for a future lesson. Definitely keep an eye out for it! In the mean time, new lesson in about 2 hours!

[@alanhowell3646]

I’d also love to see this. I have no idea how you write a drum part or piano part

[@bartekbarwicki9276]

Those videos are already out there, check it out

[@alanhowell3646]

@@bartekbarwicki9276 thanks, yes I’ve seen it now

[@juhakivekas2175]

I do some music to the drawer and this level is way beyond my skills but it sure was interesting and I did understand pretty much all of it. Thank you.

[@daantemminkpiano]

Sounds wicked. 👌

[@ColinDean1]

yes on all that. more please

[@PandemoniumBigBand]

Definitely. I’m working on another video this week. Hopefully out by Friday…. Or Monday. These take a surprisingly long time to put together.

[@MikeJamesMedia]

As always, excellent, Elliot! (I learned a ton from the Nestico book, when I was in the Air Force.) Common sense, combined with "refreshed" versions of the melody, rather than repeating. Thank you!

[@PandemoniumBigBand]

Thanks Mike! I got so much from that book. I also highly recommend the Don Sebesky book.

[@santaclaritariverlake5714]

Excellent

[@papuhawaii]

Fabulous! Easy to follow! Brilliant! Thank you, Elliot.

[@PandemoniumBigBand]

Thank you! New lesson comes out Monday morning.

[@papuhawaii]

@@PandemoniumBigBand Thank you.

[@stephenhiss246]

This is a wonderful series. I have talked to a lot of people about music theory and and arranging and within seconds they go into explanations that are so "academic" I get lost after the first sentence. Elliot's explanations and series seems to cover all of that with straight forward explanations that make perfect sense the first time around. My question is how to distribute the voicing when the melody line has notes that are in the lower portion of the staff. I don't know how to write harmony without everyone sounding like they are playing in the "toilet".

[@ziggy___moon]

DUDE! Amazing video thank you!!!

[@sheddyguitar]

Great video, how about the soprano sax helping the trumpet at the very high range?

[@PandemoniumBigBand]

That’s a cute idea, but I’m not sure the timbre would work how you’re imagining… try it!

[@ibdense]

The record, I found having the low background track distracting. On the other, who did that great arrangement of Pure Imagination ?

[@KarolisBiveinis]

Really good videos, thanks!

[@zecastello]

GREAT GREAT STUFF!!!!

[@PandemoniumBigBand]

Thanks!

[@koenroels4549]

Hello, I still like your video's! You once told about a book you have about big band arragements but I can not remmember the name of that book. Can you help me with that? Thanks!

[@gilevansinsideout]

Thanks, cool vid. Hey question for you. I've studied quite a lot of Gil Evans (I have a blog/vids about it: Gil Evans - Inside Out). And he usually puts the Tuba or Bass trombone (often doubled with Bass Clarinet) at the bottom of big passages so the bass part has sufficient weight and strength. I have seen a lot of arrangers do as you do here with the Bari Sax on the bass line. Can you tell me your thinking behind that? Thanks!

[@PandemoniumBigBand]

From experience, bari sax (in the right range) has way more presence under a tutti passage than bass trombone, though bass trombone offers a truly unique sound when needed. I avoid writing unison bari/bass trombone because that introduces intonation problems (even in the hands of world-class players). Bass clarinet offers a really unique voice, but lacks the edge that bari sax has. Tuba isn't a standard big band double, so I tend to avoid it unless it is absolutely essential to my arrangement. Remember that Gil Evans has an incredibly unique sound to his orchestration, and uses a non-standard instrumentation in his ensemble writing.

[@gilevansinsideout]

@@PandemoniumBigBand Thanks for the reply! Yes the Baritone Sax would need to be low enough in its range to be nice and grunty. It would be interesting to know what you think of some of the examples in this post. There are several interesting doubles (non-standard big band ones) Great work on the channel. gilevansinsideout.wordpress.com/2017/12/28/counterpoint-4-bass-lines/

[@Vansud]

One note - Shout choruses need a great lead line melody!

[@PandemoniumBigBand]

That’s true

[@DanielWOstler]

Nicely done!!

[@PandemoniumBigBand]

Thank you!

[@amirkahwagy7585]

Greetings from Egypt..Awesome!! Very very very useful! I Hope you'll let us know the panning for big band instruments ❤️

[@PandemoniumBigBand]

Greetings from Los Angeles, California! So glad the videos are helpful. What do you mean by panning for big band? If I know about it, I’ll make a video.

[@amirkahwagy7585]

@@PandemoniumBigBand I mean the mixing for big bad , ❤️

[@leonli7394]

Awesome!!!!!!!!!!!

[@PandemoniumBigBand]

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@leonli7394]

@@PandemoniumBigBand I would like to know if there is any big band jazz teaching books?

[@Mahdi-gz3fk]

Amazing stuff coming from a professional. Thank you for your time and knowledge. I'm really happy to have discovered your channel. Just a quick question, What are some books you would recommend for Arranging Big Band music and jazz in general?

[@PandemoniumBigBand]

My 2 favorites are The Complete Arranger by Sammy Nestico and The Contemporary Arranger by Don Sebesky. Inside the Score by Rayburn Wright is definitely worth studying too.

[@Mahdi-gz3fk]

@@PandemoniumBigBand Thank you sir.

[@michaelmull1119]

Yeah Elliot!!!

[@PandemoniumBigBand]

Mike Mull! So glad to see you on here.

[@johannakoopmans5803]

Hi, I'm just starting to learn about big band arranging and you video was very helpful! Nice arrangement, very clear explanation, just what I needed. One question though: around 6:45 you say that the trumpets and the trombones have the same notes (yes, except fo bari and bass trb), but looking at your score m.120, the lead trumpet plays A-A-A, while the 1st trombone plays -A-G-A. 2nd tp plays F#-F#-G, 2nd trb plays F-F-G. Or is there something I missed?

[@PandemoniumBigBand]

I’ll have to check my score more closely. But the likely reason is that I sometimes use adjust the trombone 1 part to get a 7th, or 9th into the chord when trumpet 1 is playing the root. Trumpet 1 and 2 need to be at least a minor 3rd apart… but trombone 1 and 2 can be closer when they are playing below the trumpets.

[@martijnholleboom5823]

In m. 120 2nd trb plays also F#-F#-G. The key signature is must be D Major (F#-C#) from earlier on. I think 2nd tpt plays a F before the measure and then F# again. Same thing in m. 125.

[@NelsonRiverosMusic]

Thanks for directing me to this video Elliot! Is this a transposed score ?

[@PandemoniumBigBand]

Nope. Concert score. Always concert score in my videos.

[@johnbirkby2913]

Another great, concise explanation. Wasn't sure about your tbne comment at about 5'33". If tpt1 is concert A above the treble clef and tbns are 8ve below, then surely tbn1 cannot be on an A ON the bass clef? Or have I misunderstood (highly highly possible!)

[@PandemoniumBigBand]

I think you misunderstood what I meant to say... to clarify: when trumpet 1 is playing A above the treble staff, you CAN use regular closed voicing (where the trumpets are voices in less than an octave and the trombones play the save voicing an octave lower). When trumpet goes higher than that, say an E or and F, then using closed voicing would put the trombones too high.

[@johnbirkby2913]

@@PandemoniumBigBand thank you!

[@jazzbumpa9917]

@@PandemoniumBigBand The confusion is when you said the 1st trombone would be be playing A on top of the bass clef. You mean the A an octave higher, above the 3rd ledger line. Lots of great info here. Thanks.

[@PandemoniumBigBand]

@@jazzbumpa9917 yes! I meant the 3 ledger line A. I should have been more clear... since the whole idea is to make this easy.

[@adrianravel]

Amazing content. Fallen in love with that series, please continue. I have one question though: trumpets and trombones voicings are explained wonderfully, but I haven't been able to find your rule of thumb for the saxophones, perhaps though I have missed it. What would you consider to be optimal voicing for the saxophones? Beginning with alto (chords tones) below trumpets or something similar? Thanks so much, highly appreciated!

[@PandemoniumBigBand]

I did touch on it, but I didn’t go into too much detail. There are several options. I think here I put first alto on the melody in the same octave at trumpet 4. Then I voiced vertically. But sometimes I will just double the trombones with the saxophones. It depends on the range of the parts and how it will lay on the various instruments.

[@adrianravel]

@@PandemoniumBigBand thanks!

[@sonicgems]

goat

[@jeffnovotny4498]

What he seems to be referring to at 8:40 is the 2nd harmonic of the lower octave reinforcing the fundamental of the higher octave, since the resultant frequencies are the same. kzbin.info

[@PandemoniumBigBand]

Or… what I said in the video. Do you make similar instructional videos for your channel?

[@jeffnovotny4498]

@@PandemoniumBigBand No I don't, but your videos are informative.

[@FinnbarrGoesFast]

what do you mean by "2D"?

[@PandemoniumBigBand]

Tutti - playing together in harmony

[@247hdjazz]

HIGH C, FOR YOUR INFORMATION, IS NOT 4 LEDGER LINES....4 LEDGER LINES IS A B OR Bb........THE C THAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO IS THE NEXT SPACE UP! JUST WANTED TO SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT!!

[@PandemoniumBigBand]

Are you inferring that I can’t read bass clef? I don’t understand the comment. Is there a question in there? Also, thank you for watching!

[@jimgresham5529]

While you teach....please loose the distracting background music.

[@PandemoniumBigBand]

Be nice.

[@monsterjazzlicks]

Have subbed!