Shower Pan Failure and Rebuild

This pan was leaking, a "tile guy" came in to repair & redo it, but he screwed it up.

[@danieb4273]

After watching your videos (and a lot of them) I pulled my wall board off at the bottom to lay the pan correctly!

[@freshfloorstulsa]

Excellent work!!!! The mud pack was mixed too wet with the previous contractors. The mud pan is designed to have some water to pass through, that's why there are weep holes in the drain. Although red guard states that you can use their product alone for a shower pan liner but I have a hard time depending on red guard to stand alone.

[@lovemytechy]

The best shower tile video.. anyone would be lucky to have you do their tile

[@doctorvincent6995]

Hi, Starr Tile. You presented a lot of useful information. Thank you.

[@andysparks7381]

Thank you for presenting good tiling practices. You allude to the fact that Kerdi is expensive, and I agree. However, for a custom shower, I don’t think the cost is a major factor. But, then again, I don’t do tiling for a living, so I guess I am speaking with a voice of inexperience. Beautiful job!

[@daakrolb]

Beautiful! Great work man, and thank you for the apprenticeship!

[@josemejia-nj6lc]

you should to show how did you fixed and how you did it.

[@stewscuda]

Some very good info, But I go the true good route..... I never use backer board in a shower area, true float only... green sheetrock over studs, heavy mil plastic, chicken wire, & a level mortar float is applied. I use a pre-sloped hot mop tar pan that is always water tested before mortar float & tile. Never had a problem in 30+ years,& I always apply (3) coats of sealer.

[@bsw9633]

ive heard you say on a few videos that mosaic tile is not the proper shower floor covering. thats not true. i agree the more grout the more water penetrates. mosaic has been put on for for a long time and the purpose is so the tile can properly follow the pitch of the mudded floor. if you are in a smaller shower a 4"x4" tile wouldn't be the best choice. i think you are going to scare people into thinking that all mosaic showers floors are wrong and dangerous. the success of a shower floor starts with the pan and if it done right there will be no problems. i have never seen a pan fail cuz water penetrated the grout. they fail because it was not installed properly or its been popped.

[@StarrTile]

You are correct, though I always ASSUME the homeowner is the achilles heel, not doing the sealing properly, using chemicals to clean, not caulking or re-caulking, etc....so as a rule I advise against mosaics on shower floors.

[@bsw9633]

lol. a little childish.. Dudes got a point. the integrity is in the pan and how its installed not the sealer or mosaics. a shower floor is a pool. weather you have mosaics or 4x4s even with slabs water is getting to the pan.

[@bsw9633]

lol. i can understand that. whats the smallest tile you are willing to put on a shower floor?

[@StarrTile]

I will put any tile my customer wants to on a shower floor, even if it's against my personal advice, and in this video it would be... having said that a two by two is pretty common and I have no issues with it, up to a 4 by 4

[@lynchmob1968]

Hey Bob I am a tile contractor in Arizona and have been one for 20 years, dig your videos. One question about the red guard on your mud pack. Why don't you cover the entire floor? Wouldn't the water that seeps through the grout lines soak into the mud pack and eventually find it's way underneath the red guard that you put down by the walls and curb? If you don't want any water to get into your mud pack wouldn't you roll the entire floor and silicone the drain? Thanks

[@StarrTile]

+lynchmob1968 I try to mitigate water from weeping to the walls or curb by painting it almost to the drain...only an 1'' or more mortar there, so it's close to weep holes. But not comfortable doing the entire pan with Redgard thinking it may create a mold sandwich. The tile & grout/caulk AND sealing properly is the key to preventing water into the pan, Redgard or not.

[@ddrd37]

Good job! What kind of grout would be the best for ceramic 2x2 tiles on shower floor ? Unsanded + seal ? Or should I invest in epoxy grout ?

[@ddrd37]

or maybe use 2x2 porcelain instead of ceramic

[@StarrTile]

+darekss20 My opinion is porcelain, 2x2 or 4x4, sanded grout with admix instead of water, and seal it well...or yes, epoxy is best.

[@KennyInVegas]

I LOVE epoxy grout!!!!!!!! Gotta work faster but the end product on my in-ground jacuzzi tub is awesome!!

[@josephmclafferty4987]

You know, I cut those mosaic 1" hex tiles still on the sheet, rather than one by one like you mentioned taking way too long. I can imagine if you cut them like that, you would never want to install them! There is a much easier way. If you pinch the sheet mosaic between two pieces of scrap wood, you can run the whole thing through the wet saw, and cut all the little guys at once. No need to pull them off and cut each tiny piece! Just make sure the scrap supports the row of tiles you are trying to cut. This works for just about any kind of sheet mosaic, no matter what the shape of the individual pieces, you can cut the sheet as if it were one big tile, making L shaped cuts, or scribes even. If something seems like its way too hard, try approaching the problem from a different direction, there is always a better way.

[@StarrTile]

Perfect..love your suggestion !

[@josephmclafferty4987]

Thanks! Glad to help. I remember I used to cut them like that, by cutting the sheet to the next full row, then cutting all the little guys to size, hearing you reminded me of how much that sucked! Also, sometimes, with the more sturdy glue backed type, where the mosaics are hot glued together rather than stuck on the mesh sheet, you can even get away with cutting them without the wood support, if you get your fingers right next to the cut and hold them tight. Of course you want to get a little more comfortable for this version, as it has your fingers right next to the wet saw blade. Sometimes, they are stiff enough to cut right through them like this, the only thing to watch is if you go too fast, the saw blade will want to twist the piece its cutting, and make a crooked cut, if you aren't supporting it well enough. The wood allows you to keep your fingers out of harms way though, so it is a bit safer, just takes longer to set up each cut. A diamond rimmed blade is nothing like a carbide toothed chop saw blade though, and I'm sure if you've used one a lot, you get comfortable doing all kinds of "freestyle" cutting to get different shapes, and round edges. People get nervous watching me on the wet saw sometimes, so I will touch the blade quickly when its running, to show them its not going to rip your finger off in an instant. Its like a grinder wheel, it cuts through abrasion, not by having sharp teeth! Anywayyy, keep up making the awesome videos! So much bad tile work out there, its nice to have people spreading proper information about waterproofing, and proper shower construction. I make a pretty good living re-doing incorrectly installed showers. 5 out of 6 showers I encounter are designed and installed just plain wrong, its can be a little tough to explain to customers. There's a lot of good systems out there to build a leak proof shower, but to succeed, you actually have to pick a system and follow the design documents! I build my enclosures old school style out of stucco/mud for both floor and walls. Then I Hydroban or RedGuard on top of the mud for waterproofing, just my way but definitely not the only way to succeed.

[@alizcool1]

I bet they pay this guy to re-do their bathroom and instead he spends his whole day investigating like a detective instead lol

[@RaulTorresMorfin]

yes for our benefit

[@lmcintosh13]

I am trying to trouble shoot whats going on in my bathroom. I don't have the money now for a plumber however if the problem seems drastic enough I could get help.......to the problem: I have had water leaking and causing drywall damage on either side of the bottom of the door to the shower ( there are no doors just a curtain ) Now I have water leaking along the wall on one side of the shower enough to soak my bathmat. All the way at the door of the bathroom the carpet of the hall has an almost always soaked portion where the carpet meets the tile of the bath floor, however the actual tile floor in the bath is not wet there. I am guessing its somehow traveling under the tile to the door? I also have had some interesting mushroom type thing grow from the drywall by the shower entrance where the drywall has been damaged. If you could give me an idea of the damage I am looking at I could request major assistance and discuss with the home owner the severity of the problem. For now the homeowner is telling me to just regrout the floor of the shower and apply plumbers tape to the shower head and nobs for leaks if that what the problem is. I am very concerned and worried! Any advice is greatly appreciated.

[@StarrTile]

+laura leigh If this isn't a spec home, and sounds like it isn't, the builder ( years ago ) did a crappy job with the prep. Most likely the curb wasn't wrapped with liner, nor was it water proofed before tiling...and more than likely it's 4'' ceramic tile with non-sanded grout, with no slope towards the inside of shower. So I suspect the pan is saturated with water and so too is the curb, causing "leaking" from under. The sheetrock mold could have to do with all I mentioned, but the bad news is it won't get better no matter what bandaid(s) you use. Only solution is a new pan re-build. Tear out pan & tile on walls to about 12'', take out curb, repair rotted wood on sub floor and start over again. The process takes about 5 days because there is a lot of drying time, and you can count on spending about $800-$1200 in labor. The process is on a few of my videos, I'll post a link here, but the video you watched HERE pretty much shows the steps.... kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z2XQlXpvfp2caqc

[@TheOpelkoenjas]

+laura leigh When you see mushrooms growing, than your leak is one that has been going on for a long time, trust me. My thought is that you'll have to rip everything apart and start rebuilding it from scratch, since most likely all boards are rotten to the bone. I suspect that waterproofing the shower properly wasn't a top priority for the one who installed it. Applying "plumber tape" won't repair the already rotten boards either. Mold has already set in, majorly, and mold doesn't stop growing unless you rip everything out and replace everything with proper boards and good waterproof sealants.

[@StarrTile]

Agreed

[@lmcintosh13]

Thank you both, I called a plumber and since have had mold remediation a leak fixed and home insurance is evidently not willing to do a whole lot to fix problems but at least have gotten that done. The shower pan will hopefully be tested and I plan to run water in the shower tonight to make sure we are 100% on issues caught. I guess they original installers also did all my water piping with PVC pipe which the plumber tried to suggest being replaced however insurance will not cover that either. We will see what else this adventure brings!

[@TheOpelkoenjas]

laura leigh PVC piping is actually okay to use (Alpex >> specially designed, not sure if you know the brand). I prefer the double layer one (and the one with extra isolation between the two layers so it doesn't take minutes to have hot water when it has to pass cold spaces), for the simple reason that accidentally switching hot with cold water tubes is non existent (comes in blue and red, for obvious reasons), unless you have a major brain fart or drunk as a skunk and see things double. ^^ It's easier to work with than copper (use a metal spiral to bend the ends, which only costs a few bucks) when you have to install everything new (starting from the boiler). Leaks are almost non existent too, due to specially designed material. I'm not saying it will last 100 years (it doesn't exist that long yet to know if it does), but you won't have a problem with clogging the pipes because of pipes being affected with their own debris (deterioration of the metal) or with calcium deposits.

[@dwolff4127]

Love the videos. Very educational. I do have a question about the necessity of the pan liner to wrap the curb. So if water penetrates the curb, yes the to top of your curb framing is probably level and water could run either way, towards the drain or out onto the floor. What difference does it make if theres pan liner on the outside of the curb if the water is just going to the wooden subfloor anyway?

[@TheOpelkoenjas]

Question: why not use bricks as a base for the curb? One row should be enough, right? Just wondering.

[@StarrTile]

+TheOpelkoenjas If I were to use bricks, I would still need at least 2 stacked, maybe 3..for typical curb height of 4 1/2'' . I would find it easier on a long length, plus they are still prone to water saturation. Just like with wallboard, it's not what you use but how you prep it, waterproofing it all insures no moisture regardless of the building material.

[@TheOpelkoenjas]

StarrTile Okay, got it. Thanks, mate. ;)

[@StarrTile]

No problem ;)

[@Tomek5513]

Good video, keep them coming. Thanks.

[@StarrTile]

+Tomek5513 Thank you ;-)

[@Lofty05746]

So did you do a pre slope with a mortar mix and then the pan liner and then another slope mortar mix then the red guard or I think what you said you just installed the liner then sloped the pan with a mortar mix then red guarded it. If so would you do the same on a concrete floor? Pan liner mortar slope then dura rock board then tape and mortar seams then res guard? I think the last series of steps might be the way to go . I am about to tear down and rebuild my shower and find it less time consuming to go liner mortar slope dura rock then red guard

[@Elitiest_Hitman]

I have torn out a few pans before that were sandy like this one. My best guess is that they did the dry pack but did not allow 24 hours for it to cure. Instead, they likely threw the pan liner over the moist dry pack and the water stayed in place. This would cause the cure to be inconsistent and weak. I arrive at that conclusion primarily from the color of the sand. If it were fully cured, it would be a light grey. What you have is a dark grey. They likely did the dry pack, took a long lunch, and returned to install the liner.

[@renealbarran6298]

question: I am remodeling my own shower stall and I laid final concrete slab to the drain but noticed that once I place my tile it will sit slightly higher than my drain is there a way to raise the drain without breaking concrete

[@chevysilver-ray-dough6328]

I've been in the construction trade for over 20 years and every single tile shower I've ever built is in place of an old leaky one. Nobody ever puts the proper material underneath the tile

[@Mysongordon]

Why have backer board if you put that red guard. Will water pull the red stuff from backer board then tiles will fall off???

[@StarrTile]

Nope, that would never happen

[@billtimmick112]

StarrTile so, in this video you are using sanded grout . why not non sanded or unless, of course, you had enough space to push the non sanded deep enough into the joints, then you would use non sanded?

[@JosEmanuel0n24]

You getting mad=Me getting smarter. Thanks!

[@brentdeckard5183]

Starr tile you should use square drains the cuts are easier and look better that's just my opinion though that I have experienced over the years

[@marionuscaa]

First of all I love all of your videos but I do have a question I thought you couldn't use sanded grout on a tile that has a glossy finish?

[@mollydenton8122]

if I had to fix shit like that I would start drinking

[@FrankGBoston]

Mr. Doyle, IMHO you are correct that capillary absorption doesn't care about slope. Porous mortar will soak up free water. Only some excess will weep along a bottom membrane. So, if the mortar pan is to remain dry, it must dry through evaporation into air or never get wet. The mortar is sandwiched between two water-tight membranes, the bottom pan liner and the Red Guard brushed on top. It seems to me that everything depends on the Red Guard. If the tile grout cracks, then any leakage should stay in the tile/grout layer and evaporate. If any water penetrates through the Red Guard layer, it will wick into the mortar pan and stay there essentially forever. A continuing small leak through the tile should eventually soak the mortar pan, and further leakage will drip out through the small area exposed to the drain. Is a soaked mortar pan OK? If not OK, then it seems that the pan liner is only there to prevent leaks into the floor until the mortar disintegrates and the shower pan must be replaced. Questions Does the proper application of Red Guard prevent all water penetration for say 30 years, keeping the mortar pan dry? If not, would it pay to install something like (I'm making this up) perforated tubing with a small airflow to dry the mortar as small leaks appear? I have no tile or shower experience.

[@douglaskirby2359]

Where did you get the larger pan liner? I see that Lowes and Home Depot typically only carry 5 x 6. I'm not needing the huge 60 foot option.

[@StarrTile]

+Douglas Kirby Generally Tile Stores carry larger widths, or you can glue in extra material with manufacturers glue.

[@hawksiamable]

I am doing this same repair. my question is my wall had drywall and wall board. can I just go back to only wall board? if so how do you make sure the existing tile and wallboard and the new wall board gets sealed correctly when joining together.

[@hawksiamable]

it's not wall board sorry it has chicken wire style..

[@StarrTile]

It won't be easy, but seam together as close as possible and put thinset in the crack.

[@ChrisXCXCX]

Is green board still acceptable

[@StarrTile]

Nope..because it's a gypsum product which mold can feed off of...if there is a way for water to penetrate. But coating it with a topical membrane insures there won't.

[@ChrisXCXCX]

I ripped out a 1980s shower, Thing was dry as a bone and all they used was greenboard.

[@StarrTile]

Exactly, more often than not have to do with homeowners maintenance and care than it does installation, or combination of the both, that's why a lot of rules and regulations are out there to prevent stupidity on both parts...on a diy project you can do anything you like

[@gregoryh8553]

hello, really enjoy your videos. I have never did tile work or construction work professionally but love to watch and learn. I have 2 questions. after you did the prep work and installed your pan do you just hang the durock to the studs followed by joint compound then red guard? second do you not use/need a liner when using red guard? thanks !

[@StarrTile]

If using durock then thinset joints..and yes a liner is needed for pan

[@johnchafin3817]

In these videos I have heard you talk about sanded grout vs non-sanded grout. When it comes to showers what is the rule of thumb for the types of grout to use?

[@Skarfp]

Do you recommend a porcelain cast iron shower pan with a mud base? I've been told that most builders use fiberglass pans with no mud base, then others say that fiberglass is garbage. How can I be sure my shower is being waterproofed properly? I'm being given conflicting information so any help/advice would be appreciated.

[@StarrTile]

+Skarfp 1956 Not sure I understand " Porcelain cast iron " ?? As to the fiberglass being better than a liner & mud base, my opinion is that fiberglass is crap and would only be useful in a motel. How can you insure good waterproofing starts from the beginning, watching each step along the way & watching KZbin videos to confirm the process is correct. If nothing else, be sure there's a topical membrane in place BEFORE tile is set...at the end SEAL the grout !

[@TheNiuhuskies09]

Do the walls in a shower or floor go in first?

[@TheOpelkoenjas]

I just had a little disagreement with someone who apparently builds walk in showers as a profession. Tho the tile work was excellent at first glance, I suddenly noticed a flaw in his way of working. At least I think. Isn't it so that you should always place the horizontal tiles first and then the vertical tiles, so that the vertical tiles sit on top of the horizontal ones (with the needed spacing too, just like all the rest)? That way any water that should stay behind in corners etc won't seep in underneath the tiles true the grout? Or something in that order, I think it had something to do with the grout cracking after a while or something, can't exactly remember what you said about that one, on why it's better that way, but your logical method is stuck in my brain for future references when I start building my own walk in shower in a few months. He said that it wasn't needed at all, since underneath there's was a waterproof membrane and that it would stop any water. He also said that "my" method only counts for roofs of shed etc, not for showers where more water is applied (I guess he doesn't know our Western European weather then LOL). I thought that was a kinda funny way of reasoning, and he refused to even consider using "my" method as HIS was better. He almost seems irritated too for me pointing out a possible flaw. So, am I correct or not? Cheers.

[@StarrTile]

+TheOpelkoenjas Yes you are correct, floor tile 1st, grout it, then wall tile.

[@freshfloorstulsa]

This is a logical and standard rule that is critical in shower floors, but not as critical in other areas. I have seen it in the other order in niches and Europe.

[@TheOpelkoenjas]

StarrTile That's what I tried to explain to him, but he completely ignored my reasoning. Karl T Actually, if you think logical, niches should be done the same way (bottom tiles first, the top accordingly to keep everything pretty for the eye) since it's also an area that tends to get very wet (depending on where the niche is build of course). And if not sloped correctly, you can imagine water finding it's way behind the tiles fast on that spot. Waterproofing everything won't prevent water to "infect" your tinset.

[@johnanderson6253]

My wife is insistent on using stone for a shower floor. You mention that penny tile is a bad idea due to many more grout lines. Is a stone floor a bad idea for the same reason? Is there a safe way to install a stone shower floor?

[@wallacegrommet9343]

The pennytile has a glossy surface! Slippery! That is better as a backsplash

[@IMABEAST191]

when I dry pack my pans they never get sandy like that he must have walked on it to soon or did it way to dry.

[@vicentetaylor2679]

Imabeast191 I made my own custom shower pan but was given some wrong advice and ended up putting my deck mud in to dry. I've scraped off the top layer so that I'm on a hard surface now. Can I now run a layer of thin set, let that dry for 24 hours and then set tile on that

[@martinligeza5153]

I always drypack my morter bed slopes.

[@jimsouder426]

plumbing supply houses carry wider pan liner also.

[@smittyss4978]

What type and size tile do you recommend for shower floors?

[@StarrTile]

2x2 or 3x3 on a mat..or 4x4 porcelain or tumbled marble

[@stabilisedchaos]

Why the hell didn't these guys do the floor first and then sit the wall tile on top and it would have avoided all those tiny cuts?,wow.

[@Barrsa1]

Why don't build your corner seat out of concrete blocks and forget about the leakage

[@StarrTile]

I've torn out WET blocks before, so the prep is more important than the materials, and the tiling must be done right.

[@StarrTile]

I've installed wood benches since I started doing showers 19 years ago, never had a failure. As I already stated, prep & tiling is more important...here is a concrete block bench I took out, saturated ! kzbin.info/www/bejne/jWa4d4WOfbx8hdU

[@paull2815]

Not red guarding the entire pan is a logic fail. Proper waterproofing prevents water. Simple as that. Any moisture that migrates to the water barrier through the grout will simply evaporate through the same grout lines. You have given it another area to migrate to by having a bare pan and letting the moisture leach the portland cement out of the top layer out of the mortar mix. That's where the sandy pan mix came from in the tear-out. You have pointed out that the shower failed because of lack of waterproofing by the previous hacker and yet you do exactly the same thing. Everything else is fairly reasonable except the mosaic, given that it's a proper floor tile and not a decorative splash tile that sucks water, is logical but the bare pan makes absolutely no sense at all.

[@StarrTile]

Shower pans were not waterproofed until recent years, that means millions and millions of pans out there are not waterproofed yet they survive... what happens on the surface is extremely important with regard to the type of tile, how it's grouted, how it's sealed, and going forward how it's cared for. The penny tile is not a good choice for a shower floor, outside of the shower maybe. Since this particular shower was never used then it is a horrible model for your theory, I have taken out hundreds of shower pans and some are more deteriorated than others... way too many variables to have a blanket statement as you did.

[@martinligeza5153]

I never fully wrap my curb all the way back down to the floor because it serves no perpose. I wrap it the same way as the guys did on your video.

[@suckmydick1875]

does anyone else float their showers these days?

[@lucysantiagocovers5329]

I got the same problem I hire a contractor to do my shower to model my bathroom and put a shower stand that and he did amazing job and so he got done everything but because the showers floor tile started coming out and I started seeing cracks in showers...and now I got a hire a contractor to model my shower stand again to fix the floor and a half of the towels

[@billysnoww]

ok.. so my shower goes against every thing you said for possible leaks. like the non sanded grout on walls .. small tiles on floor , exactly like that, so possible more leaks. and after 7 years.. I see at the bottom edge of shower floor to walls.. the walls, which is lime stone.. looks like there is a water stain on the bottom inside the tiles which can not be wiped.. you kinda explained that in a brief and moved on .. it that something you see ??

[@StarrTile]

+Billy Snow Yes I see staining on tiles sometimes, every reason is different so can't speak to your situation.

[@92bluegen]

Also, that repair will never last. You can not repair by replacing a foot up the wall

[@spellyspell8758]

just rip up a floor like that the whole bathroom floor I hated it omg pain n the butt

[@92bluegen]

Thing is, if you concrete slope under your pan, this will never happen. Period.

[@Gazza-is2tk]

Does this guy actually do any work? Other than filming and moaning about everything he was hired to fix?

[@gideonjames1353]

Spends way top much time explaining why it failed instead of SHOWING how to repair

[@freshfloorstulsa]

I agree with that

[@q2069]

i dont understand why u use a pan. seems like an extra step and extra over head cost. why not just use red guard as the pan? would be so much faster and has lifetime warranty.

[@boashna]

nice as of July 2017 you can put advertisement on your channel go to your logo and click on creator studio and monetize and resave all your videos . . please delete this post afterward. .c u

[@reedrobb]

You make me cringe when scraping your nail on the grout.

[@StarrTile]

*IF THIS WAS HELPFUL PLEASE CONTRIBUTE TO ME PATREON OR PAYPAL..THANK YOU !* www.patreon.com/starrtile for Patreon or [e-mail] for PayPal

[@phrozen17]

Your nuts, nobody redguards the whole wall like you...overkill much?? All you do is criticize others. So easy to do.