Shrines vs. Ur-Dragon vs. Treasures vs. Sea Monsters | Commander Clash S12 E19

[@MTGGoldfishCommander]

Viewer Submissions are now open! Reply to this community post with your deck link: kzbin.infoUgkxN5bWSwz4q45zgEyHJU5U3RcFjkcREBQ- Deadline is June 29th.

[@happybrain2674]

btw what sides do you perfer for sending links of our decks?

[@RyuPlaneswalker]

Seeing Seth board wipe into a Revel Of Riches makes me feel better after punting very badly 3 times this weekend.

[@benjiboy1337]

Sphinx of the Second Sun is working as intended. Its trigger occurs at the beginning of your post-combat main phase, and that trigger creates a beginning phase AFTER "this phase" (being your post-combat main phase). The way it works, and is intended to work, is that you get an untap, upkeep, and draw directly before your end phase. It would need to be an "end of combat" trigger in order to make that beginning phase happen before your second main phase.

[@jamescooley5241]

Aka the card sucks. Literally so bad its unbelievable

[@tyler200100]

@@jamescooley5241 I think it does some cool things. Can trigger things that care of about upkeep. Its also a shitty seedborn muse. Just because they didnt have reasons to be playing doesnt mean reason to play it dont exist.

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

@@jamescooley5241 how many cards have triggers on upkeep? seems easy to build around.

[@jamescooley5241]

@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 True, any card can do something when built around. But when you compare it to other 8 mana cards it is extremely lackluster. Craterhoof, aminatou's augery and insurrection for example Edit: it also dies to removal

[@tianruixiao9239]

Phil: "Don't hate the player, hate the game" Seth: Remember my Arena deck from Esports Week?

[@ruudvanlaarhoven5776]

Nezahal, Primal Tide is not a Rhystic Study, it's a grown-up Mystic Remora

[@jstrobel3620]

Marine snow is the stuff that falls to the bottom of the ocean. Whale falls are also an important deep sea food source.

[@BrewersKitchen]

Yep, I was going to mention whale falls after as well but the conversation already went on at that point

[@JoshRudis]

On this week of "Punt or Bluff?" Revenge is a dish best served cold! Will Phil's angry squids blind everyone with ink or will Seth just become the best mayor in SimCity: Kamigawa Edition? Tune in to find out!

[@frizbehobit9919]

I agree with Seth. You want a untied front till something is removed you have to honor the alliance. If you destroy my stuff, I would throw all of the alliance out the window.

[@winssports4830]

Yeah I actively seek to destroy you if not this game but the next game if you betray a deal and I'll never deal with you again.

[@Floesinator]

I would love to see a little less 5 colour running around. Especially with how many times Tomer has played the Ur-Dragon in one form or another.

[@Graatand]

Mono-color week? (Green is banned)

[@Floesinator]

@@Graatand Not perse mono coloured. I'm just kinda tired of seeing 5 colour piles. You can make pretty much every strategy tick because you have the best support cards. There is no deckbuilding cost related to your commander anymore at that point. I like Commander clash best when it leans into the more niche stuff :).

[@shinobu-39]

I agree with this but if it's Tribal-Tribal, it's okay for me.

[@CyberNewType]

Agreed! Tomer sticks Ur-Dragon at the head of too many decks and labels it something niche. But its not…its Ur-Dragon…its Eminence. I don’t think 5 color is the issue, its those. And calling it a ‘dragon token’ deck, then doing nothing but dropping big dragons, is a stretch. Just find something else to do…Ur-Dragon and Eminence are just a crutch.

[@joshholmes1372]

@@Floesinator well there is. 5 color budget is painful for fixing at times.

[@alexgonzalez6778]

Please make a Scoops Goldfish plushie. Richard’s is awesome and I’m jealous of his.

[@lysander3262]

I know exactly what videos Phil is talking about and I have definitely fallen asleep listening to them myself.

[@anix712]

On the discussion of old vs new border; I've been playing for over 20 years, but I actually hate the old border. And not just "the old border on new cards" like Richard. I actively think that the old borders LOOK BAD and date the cards/game. The new border is infinitely better. I frequently feel like I'm the only person who holds this view, though. Every show, podcast, and forum related to MTG that I've ever seen is full of people waxing nostalgic about the old border, where I couldn't be happier that it's gone.

[@Magicannon_]

I kind of agree. I can still lean toward Richard's view, but new borders are just cleaner. I can actually read the words from a distance instead of the horrible font on older stuff against a more chaotic background. I guess these people just like more of the frame art? I mean...why don't they like Either Edition then? And if you hate the white borders, how about Ninth Edition to M14?

[@mordamen]

I fully agree with you. I just think the new frames look far prettier and let us enjoy the cards awesome art instead of a very blocky and (in my view) ugly frame. But at the end of the day, beauty really is in the eye of the beholder

[@winssports4830]

Yeah I agree I loathe old border and think they look ugly however there are a FEW cards that look better with old border but they are rare.

[@patrickschmidt6140]

I totally agree. Old borders date the game so hard. I'd rather play a black and white card (no color) than an ugly old border

[@joshuasnyder4101]

I like both. I like seeing the retro frame on newer cards. Old cards should get a new special border when they get the first printing

[@loganvain3]

I love how Seth and the others ask Phil about deep sea creatures whenever he plays Gyruda

[@remembertobreathe66]

57:44 "I like you played and a little roughed up," said Phil, rolling back against his pillow lighting a cigarette. Onslaught Island #337 giggles while leaning her whitening border against his shoulder. "I'm glad you kept me in your pocket all week."

[@tylercrowley8441]

I'm with Richard, i like the new borders much better

[@blackmountain1983]

39:33 if you use Rite of Replication to make five copies of Scourge of Valkus you will end up dealing 180 damage! 😁 All five of the copies plus the original will all see five dragons entering the battlefield, so they will each trigger five times, that's 30 triggers dealing six damage each!

[@WhammeWhamme]

"I don't want this to drag on" -> dies to dragons. Hmmm.

[@andreusemanuel4868]

I think at this point Richard is so focused in that weird and inefficient Ognis combo that he legit forgot that you can just build this deck as a grand warlord radha deck that has black. Ognis works best at an aggro deck than whichever jank he was trying to pull, tbh.

[@mark1A100]

but ognis is a bad attacker(worse then rada at least) you cant use the mana the same turn, and only works with haste creatures compared to working with everything.

[@andreusemanuel4868]

@@mark1A100 read again what I said, I never commented that Ognis was better than Radha, and for real, if being worse than something is an excuse to not play something, maybe we all should go play cedh. Anyways, yes, ognis is just a 3/3, but she's supposed to sit on the battlefield as you attack with something else, much like Radha will do on the late game.

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

@@andreusemanuel4868 I think your second comment answers your first. thats not what he wanted to do.

[@SirCorn]

I don't think I've ever heard Richard get so tickled during a game of commander before. That was a lot of fun to watch

[@ronald_grinder]

Fun games. Although lately Tomer's wins have been kind of unsatisfying. They've just been "play an overly strong commander and do what the commander wants you to do" kind of wins.

[@atk9989]

To be fair he pretty commonly is the first one killed, alil less now that Phil is in instead of Crim but if I went into every game expecting to be out first I'd give my deck a better chance to win and an actual reason for being out first.

[@winssports4830]

Yeah he actively said this season he wasn't playing budget and was playing good cards and to win. That's why he took a year off because he was always targeted and killed first even if he is killed for good reason lol.

[@c0barsm]

I'm with Richard, new borders are better over all.

[@pixelbomb97]

In response to the old border conversation. I'm a newer player and I like most of the old border card frames, bit I think mono red and gold cards look butt ugly in old border.

[@kaszael]

Sphinx of the Second Sun used to be bugged when combined with Paradox Haze. When it cam out I played them in shrines and Sphinx triggered properly, after my 2nd main, it gave me a beginning phase but because the upkeep occurred twice, for some reason the game thought it was the actual beginning of the turn and went to my first main phase, allowing me to cast spells normally. Then the turn ended when I moved to combat. I tried it later when Go-Shintai came out and it seems to be fixed. Richard: have you thought about Urborg + Filth to make your creatures unblockable so Ognis can attack?

[@jameshayes-barber9340]

1:15:00 Is "Kamaes" a European word for nerf?

[@dgja16]

how do you get a sol ring in a Gyrruda deck? isn't there a companion even mana cost rule? what am I missing?

[@subrosian2323]

Gyruda is the commander, not being used as a companion.

[@dgja16]

@@subrosian2323 thanks! not sure how to set it up on mtg online

[@argonnas2]

Seth punt was epic

[@kingfuzzy2]

Hope to see all of the 8+ cmc vanilla dragons today 🐲

[@ericgodat3516]

Phil not playing extinction event is a flavor travesty.

[@Evyon25121]

Phil's hot take on the OG shock lands blew me away. Rob Alexander's art on those cards is iconic and some of the most beautiful art in Magic.

[@ericmilligan6603]

As a Canadian, I appreciated Tomer's joke.

[@kingfuzzy2]

Oh Phil I love you walking sponge and the obscure tribes from scourge block are some of my favorite creatures of all time.

[@mightyone3737]

Yeah, they'll do ANOTHER drop based on the Wedges, each with 3 Shockland that has old border, and FUCK IT, also have the T tap because yes. I like having some beaten up cards depending on what the card is, heavy play is a sign that the card has been used, not just sit in a binder, those played cards are veterans! My Sisay Shrines deck is a mixed bag when it comes to speed, it can win turn 4 sometimes, but also can get stuck and take forever to win, and since the deck had no space for interaction due to 11 (mostly bad) Shrines, the deck did manage to find space for a few ways to actually win. I was amused when I realized Zur can find both Sanctum Weaver and an untapping Enchantment, at which point you have infinite mana in a Sisay deck, and if you can't win that turn you're doing something wrong. AFAIK the issue is rushing Zur out, and everyone else figuring out 'just kill Zur?', at which point you're just digging out Shrines and the deck feels bad. Also, dealing damage via Shrines can be a hassle, the Sanctum of Shattered Heights can't target players, just creatures and planeswalkers. I feel like Sisay speeds the deck up a lot, but also makes you more of an archenemy. In Sisay you can (and probably should) run those clunky Group Hug ramp spells, so in my case I've got lots of basics, I guess Go-Shintai would just ramp and fix a bt and be satisfied, there isn't much point in helping everyone else to generate extra resources to get to WWUUBBRRGG or WWWUUUBBBRRRGGG, which Sisay is eager to hit (and wins super-quickly then). Cool non-Dragon Token deck Tomer! I'm pretty sure Homarids are lobster people that wiped out the Merfolk empire in Fallen Empires, they were probably the jankiest tribe ever printed, where you'd have to play out overcosted Homarids, wait until the ideal time and make Camarids with the enchantment to avoid suffering from low power, 3 Camarids wasn't bad. I think there is actually a Blue Anthem from back then, possibly more than one, that could buff your Camarids more than a single Homarid. You could also use Unstable Mutation with a well timed Homarid to get in some serious swings before sacrificing it right before it'd die anyways. It also would have worked as a combat trick back then, damage used the stack actually. As far as low-budget old school goes, mono-Blue Homarids aren't as bad as they sound.

[@Tiamatdlord]

Very fun match ups, but here is the issue besides the odd combos or lack of taking place. a shrine deck w/o attack taxing/worship shroud effect is odd basically, its saves along with their abilities to help you live unless someone mass removes the enchantments. One tick with me is all the weird stuff people do with Ur-dragon, look I get but best design are usually always dragon related you can change combos. I prefer scion of ur-dragon though tbh, alot of other stuff you can do. My shrine deck I play mana dorks then have ways excel it as well go off with jeskai ascendancy if I have to.It can go off combined with semi-protection you never lose easily and always have the out.

[@Bleuchz]

"When I was big on Kaldra" WHEN?!

[@TheSpunYarn]

While I am *begging* for Phil to stop saying R&D don't playtest new cards, I do love his interest in the Deep Sea. It's so, so cool! Not sure if he brings it up in this episode, but there's this phenomenon called "whalefall" when a Whale corpse drifts into the Abyssal Zone and it creates an entire ecosystem for over a DECADE of creatures feeding on the carcass. Fun ocean fact for ya.

[@emilypearl3510]

I mean, do you work in R&D? The insult is more at wotc for not funding R&D and some degree of players being upset at design philosophy nowadays. However in some cases, it does seem R&D is designed to just make sure limited is good and to ignore any powerful cards that move product.

[@TheSpunYarn]

@@emilypearl3510 if the insult is more at WotC, then say something about WotC, I think. Nobody's saying "WotC isn't paying testers enough" they're just complaining that there's no testing at all, which I think is kinda rude to R&D - who are doing their best and all really love Magic. I agree, put the blame on Wizards, but that isn't what Phil says.

[@ronald_grinder]

@@TheSpunYarn Semantics. I don't think anyone in R&D cares what Phil is saying.

[@TheSpunYarn]

@@ronald_grinder I mean, true. I can still be bothered by it and find it disrespectful though. I don't think any less of Phil or anything. I just think it's an annoying thing to say

[@BrewersKitchen]

Yeah saying "they don't test at all" is a bit of hyperbole obviously. I was about to mention whalefalls when I got asked what deep sea creatures eat. They are so incredibly interesting. I assume you've already seen it, but Natural World Facts has an amazing video about them

[@jacobbono]

I want to know where Phil is getting Grand Crescendo for $0.10, it's like a $9-$10 card

[@jjthesecond2801]

A lot of cards are significantly cheaper on MTGO. That's probably what they're talking about

[@Mr_Myst13]

He probably got it on MTGO lmao

[@BrewersKitchen]

Oh yeah, I was talking about MTGO xD

[@zombiemage1451]

the best border is the color-shifted border from Planar Chaos

[@scarecr0w630]

tomer: I actually built something similar recently but mine is 4 colors and focuses more on yarok+miirym things. a BIG BIG price of getting all the Tokens into play is genesis chamber. u should def check it out for ur deck.

[@scarecr0w630]

also there's 4 versions of arcane adaptation....

[@peterhardiman7333]

I can't believe Seth played the enchantment before the selessan champion....

[@Kryptnyt]

Someone might try to tell you that Karmic Justice has gotten worse since the printing of Farewell, but actually no one plays Farewell, so -

[@joshuabillie5083]

YESSSS OGNIS IS BACK I LOVE HERR

[@peytonmillner6417]

At the beginning of your second mainphase, after it, gain a beginning phase, then go to your normal end phase. Its like an awkward wilderness reclamation.

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

that draws you a card. and triggers any upkeep triggers you have.

[@ebonezra8073]

I feel like Phil shouldn't have brought a deck back for revenge week that destroyed on its first play-through. Maybe it's not the jank cards... it's the commander.

[@BrewersKitchen]

lol yeah, Gyruda is the silver lining for the powerlevel of this deck. Game two was the game where the jank finally came through

[@jico6564]

We've seen Tomer week Now i gotta see Seth week where everyone plays a panharmonicon commander

[@MTGGoldfishCommander]

We actually had a Seth week back when Seth rotated out for a season: kzbin.info/www/bejne/p4Pdn6J-g6ejo6s

[@jico6564]

@@MTGGoldfishCommander Ah, so now i have the next one to look forward to in a few years time 😁

[@mikemoyer8162]

So I'm totally sold on walking sponge in pillow fort decks. It's ability can actually be super relevant for stopping a voltron deck.

[@devynstewart6307]

try phyrexian splicer also. works as a political tool also as it transfers keywords instead of just removing them.

[@maxentius681]

is it just me, or is the Ur-Dragon just a very uninteresting commander that is pretty much a solved equation?

[@Wyrm7774]

Which tribal commanders aren't solved?

[@maxentius681]

@@Wyrm7774 I just find UR-Dragon especially boring. Easily the most powerful commander in the game, to then end it with a tutor effect is definitely a feels bad and was basically a shoulder shrug moment.

[@scaredycat3146]

@@maxentius681 it's not even close to be the most powerful commander in the format tbh.

[@maxentius681]

@@scaredycat3146 I’m not talking the entire format, I meant this specific game.

[@hanschristopherson8056]

Congrats guys the game didn’t go over 3 hrs!!

[@Crazymachin3gun]

I think it's finally time for the return of step tribal

[@zaclock-4228]

Tomer, please! I'm not from Ontario and I know Rob Ford never was a premier.

[@MTGGoldfishCommander]

Meant Doug premier sorry. Rob was mayor of Toronto.

[@joshholmes1372]

Board whipe into revel of riches had to be one of the worst plays in edh history...and I'm all for it 😂

[@Ricardo-zo1ti]

Cool games, but pretty disappointing endings

[@NightKnigth1]

I play similar deck to Tomers. Mass dragon reanimator with Ur as the Commander. And I can 100% say this, this deck is missing Terror of The Peaks.

[@okgut2033]

But then its just like another dragonstorm deck. Its sometimes better to see if you can win without doing things out of nowhere

[@zackestin1368]

made it 48 minutes in before giving up because why in the world was phil allowed to bring a deck that won back on "revenge week" and pubstomp the table?

[@Niuttuc]

Because he didn't win last time he brought the deck and he didn't pubstomp the table in this episode either?

[@zackestin1368]

@@Niuttuc he literally said himself as did everybody else how he won last time he brought it but had "a really good draw" then proceeds to have another insane draw.

[@bumbles_ttv9823]

Awwww Phil! No jumping fish liver oil dandans?

[@matthewgreutman9810]

I was hoping for a paradox haze return but maybe another time

[@13bender37]

At the like 2 hour mark why didn't Seth just play the black or red honden and dome someone to death

[@gibbysg8143]

Why was Seth not casting the setessan champion before casting all his enchantments?!?!

[@russellcammarata9819]

I felt like it was the right play tbh. If you cast Setessan champion first, then you're a big threat but you can't actually follow up into card draw until your next turn. That's a lot of time for someone to kill one of your best draw engines before it gets any work done. He had plenty in hand to play, so it's better to get your mana right with the shrine first, and plan out a more stormy turn with champion + go-shintai and another shrine to get burst card draw before anyone can interact.

[@gibbysg8143]

@@russellcammarata9819 I must play in a really non spikey meta cause we don’t typically shoot every random thing with a swords or something it’s usually to try to save yourself from dying or stop a combo or something idk lol

[@willpatterson3674]

Came for Commander, stayed for the Canadian jokes! Love hearing about Loonies and the premiers, makes me feel more at home

[@logankohl]

I feel represented lol

[@shadowpsyke]

Modern rules text on the new old border cards is what I needed as a new border zoomer player to fall in love. If only they could figure out a legend crown version that looked good in old border

[@lordofgarbageprogenitoroft4147]

CLASH ON!

[@RyanEglitis]

This card says "Richard wins the game." That can't stop me because I can't read.

[@billiumdollars]

Yay shrines are back!!!!

[@scoobg21]

“Dragon Tokens” lol

[@awfullyfunmtg]

Is Richard Canadian? I thought he lived in California? Or do y'all call the American $1 coins (which is a thing that exists but is NOT common in the states as far as I know) loonies as well?

[@MTGGoldfishCommander]

He grew up in Canada

[@davidnguyen2661]

@@MTGGoldfishCommander Cool, didn't realize the fish crew had that much Canadian blood 🍁🏒

[@greg6538]

I'm with Phil on this. I loooove my cards a little rough around the edges.

[@MstrKipper]

Not sure on Seth's turn three here. I dont think he really needed the mana, and having Setessan Champion draw 2 cards on turn 4+ I feel like is way more massive in a Shrines deck.

[@davidarmstrong3964]

Deathbringer regent I think

[@gxantor]

I'm with richard on the old border issue.

[@sharlockshacolmes9381]

I started with Ixalan and I'm 100% old bordered they have way more flavor and despite what you might think the art pop out more on old bordered.

[@faceoctopus4571]

"Third times the charm" fourth attempt 😁

[@CyberNewType]

omg, if never fails. I hate watching Seth play decks I like. “Maybe Shrines are just too fair” is a statement uttered by NO ONE who is a good Shrine player or played against a good Shrine player. Even if Seth doesn’t play the deck well, fine. But don’t sit there and dog a really good deck because your not good with it. At this point, I would like them to play a week where every deck Seth complained about while play it, is played by the others and let him see how good they do with them.

[@elijahramos3898]

newer player, vastly prefer old bordered lands. there's just something about it that is so nice. my favorite set basics are invasion.

[@ehfik]

rilakkuma

[@joecooper8527]

Insta clicked for shrines and ur dragon.

[@OGTahoe3]

My favorite version of Gyruda is Clones and now Astral Dragon that makes the 3/3 copies

[@erikbraun473]

What a punt lolol

[@Triforcer]

Game 1 perfectly shows how Seth plays magic, with out thinking

[@radioguy20]

One of my friends absolutely HATES Shrines. That’s why I made one :)

[@Dementia55372]

Another lame Tomer win with the dumb Ur Dragon deck, who could have predicted.

[@xZipkan]

Phil's opener game one was obscene, so I just skipped to game 2

[@poiri]

Big agree, turn 3 walking sponge is way too strong

[@richmondlau5945]

sell the plushies!

[@onlyRicky_x]

Give me white border!

[@yonigle8553]

ottawa soaring city

[@DimbyHero]

Please house ban sol ring

[@TheGorick]

I really don't understand the appeal of old border... it's just... ugly...

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

border discussions are wierd, it shouldn't matter one way or the other. I don't like white borders.....

[@ironjoebob7]

Seth: has heroic intervention to survive the final turn. Decides to die instead. ???

[@MTGGoldfishCommander]

Heroic Intervention is good at saving permanents, but it doesn't protect your face :(

[@jekanyika]

Saying clash on is a privilege not a punishment.

[@nCedric1]

I really dislike Tomer's deck. It's just 5 color good stuff, and 5c good stuff is one of the things I believe to be wrong with the format in my opinion. This is why Golos got banned: No reason not to play him.

[@Wyrm7774]

Are 5 color dragons really 5 color good stuff tho?

[@MTGGoldfishCommander]

My intent wasn't to bring a Goodstuff deck. My deck was a tokens deck that turned the tokens into Dragons and then specifically use Go Wide Dragon strategy.

[@maxwellgarr4264]

Nintendo please DMCA that cringe brawl intro please. No hate on commander clash I just hate that intro so much.

[@ebonezra8073]

And I love it. Every pot has a lid.

[@brick4939]

Not only do i love it, but i think that brawl intro is public domain now.