Sight & Sound Poll 2022 || Roundtable Discussion w/ Elliot Coen, Chris Mohan and Nathan Jones

[@Shah-of-the-Shinebox]

I watched Jeanne Dielmann because I found myself awake at 4am and it was on Hulu and figured I'd kill 3 1/2 hours. I knew it wouldn't be an easy watch but it held my attention for the whole duration. It's great because it challenges the rules of conventional cinema. Do I personally consider it the greatest film of all time? No but it definitely deserves a spot on any greatest films list. Here's my top 10 Greatest films: The Godfather (Coppola, 1972) The Godfather Part II (Coppola, 1974) Lawrence of Arabia (Lean, 1962) There Will Be Blood (Anderson, 2007) High and Low (Kurosawa, 1963) City Lights (Chaplin, 1931) La Dolce Vita (Fellini, 1960) Sunrise (Murnau, 1927) GoodFellas (Scorsese, 1990) The Wild Bunch (Peckinpah, 1969)

[@beermarshal2070]

Good video guys. I found this through a link on a forum I'm on. I'm a bit older than any of you, and have been pretty serious about film since the end of the 80s - and at that time I lived in a very large city with lots of access to arthouses - so it's maybe no surprise that I've seen all of the films on the critic's list and all but one on the director's, many of them in the cinema and many multiple times in the cinema. I suppose my tastes are fairly canon-friendly, as I really don't have any films on either list that I strongly dislike and only a few that I'm ambivalent or slightly negative about. Of course there are plenty that I like but don't love as much as most, and there always have been - The Godfather is a good famous example (I much prefer Once Upon a Time in America as far as mob films go). As far as Jeanne Dielman, it's a fairly strong favorite for me. I found it more amusing than anything else to see it ascend to the top; I'd say it's one of the hardest watches of the whole top 100 and certainly much more of a challenge to the typical person's viewing than any of the other films that have topped the list or probably any that have been in the top 10. I don't know that I'd ever put it in my top 10 - I do like structuralist and experimental films and slow films but rarely do they hit me in such a way as to make me think of them as an absolute top top favorite. Stalker is probably the closest, and Rivette's Out 1 (which is not on the list). But I've been a huge fan of Rivette and Tarkovsky for over 30 years; perhaps more viewings of JD and more films by Akerman in general will put her up in the same category eventually for me. One thing this new list does is highlight the ever-growing chasm between mainstream tastes and the "cinephile" taste. You'd think it wouldn't be so in this day of extreme democratization, when far more people than ever before can access any kind of film imaginable, but it strikes me that Jeanne Dielman and Meshes of the Afternoon and Daisies and Satantango are much further removed from the average film viewers taste in 2022 than Vertigo, Citizen Kane, The Godfather or The Searchers were from a typical movie buff in 1992. I don't know that this is a good or bad thing but it's worth noting. Culture continues to fracture.

[@FilmBloggerSam]

Well said! Thanks for watching and taking the time to comment. I don't have an arthouse cinema within 60miles of where I live, so when I got into film seriously l had to take the physical media route to even watch things for the first time. Tarkovsky is an absolute favourite of mine, Mirror is just on another level for me. Cheers

[@beermarshal2070]

@@FilmBloggerSam Well I don't live anymore in that big city - and 60 miles is in fact about the distance I have to travel to see anything interesting most of the time - a University Cinematheque, but it's limited to just a few shows a week. Still, it's totally worth the trip for some things - I saw Satantango for the first time since it was new there, just a week before the pandemic closed everything down. Still the way to see films (ESPECIALLY long slow films) to me if it's manageable. But these days 95% of what I see is at home, alas.

[@GA-1st]

The conceit of the S&S Critics' poll is that they're picking "the greatest films of all time." Given that specific premise, as absurd as it may be, the notion that "Get Out" is a "greater" film than "Lawrence of Arabia" is beyond ludicrous! But given the total subjectivity of the criteria applied to the selection process, it's not surprising such incongruous results would occur, i.e., "we leave that open to YOUR interpretation. You might choose the ten you FEEL are most important to film history, OR the ten that represent the aesthetic pinnacles of achievement, OR indeed the ten that have had the biggest impact on your OWN view of cinema.” That's about as subjective as one can get!

[@ignatiusjackson235]

Exactly. They're only called 'Sight and Sound' because they've apparently got no taste.

[@neilsmoviechannel3199]

Good chat. Meshes of the Afternoon is on Criterion Channel if you can access that, or You Tube…..Agree I would boot out Blade Runner for the sole reason there are too many cuts of the film, but then that rationale doesn’t work for me because I’d want to keep Apocalypse Now in (I think the Final Cut is excellent). Personally I am fine with the poll just approaching it from a curiosity standpoint and have made a few new discoveries since it came out. The fun part is thinking about your own favorites and maybe challenging your own thoughts about disliked movies. As Elliot said, there’s no set criteria for greatest so it’s a very open field.

[@xpindy]

Meshes is interesting- even important- but doesn't belong on this list. (And I have it in my collection.)

[@goosesmovies]

Great conversation chaps, really enjoyed it! Easily the best thing to come out of the list is all the great discussion that it fuels, both in our particular space, but also with those who aren't as familiar with film. It's enourmous fun to really dig into. Very interesting points about the fact that each person's list gets published. I absolutely agree that the list would be that much more interesting, if it was anonymous, though I loved to see some directors in particular not seem to care, and throw caution to the wind naming some left field choices, and also when they name their own films! Only two in particular stood out to me with this 2022 list, Get Out and Daisies, neither of which I think deserves a spot on the top 100, despite their quality.

[@FilmBloggerSam]

The conversation is certainly the best thing about the list being published. I honestly think the list would look different if ballots were confidential, and as such is a reason I think a film like Chinatown is no longer in the top 100. Thanks for watching 👍

[@ignatiusjackson235]

@@FilmBloggerSam The fact that Chinatown still ranked highly in the Directors poll works to credit your observation.

[@richardking3206]

Apart from specific films that I like but are missing, I’d say the lack of any Kieslowski is my shock point. But it’s only a list for discussion and seeking new inspiration for films to seek out. I was grateful for the lack of talk about ‘quotas’, ‘wokeness’ and general paranoia about this list in your chat. It’s a poll of 1600+ critics, double the last one, I’d have been amazed if there weren’t some unexpected changes and some more modern films. All the polls I’ve seen in recent years (whether it’s music, video games, books, tv shows, etc etc) all have a propensity to big up more recent stuff over older things, so on that basis this is a fairly modest alteration.

[@84paratize]

Great chat, guys! Hope you do a follow-up at some point because there is plenty more to discuss

[@FilmBloggerSam]

I'm sure there will be more discussions in the future. Thanks for watching 👍

[@slc2466]

Awesome to see the Variety Top 100 list today, with "Psycho" at #1 and "The Wizard of Oz" as runner-up!

[@itsbeyondme5560]

The list is better than I thought. My favorite films in the Iist was higher like the Godfather

[@omeshsingh8091]

At most one can only possibly be upset about ten films not being on the list. Any more than that is unfair to the voters because they had to prioritize ten films only: ten films is literally the limit of their influence.

[@ignatiusjackson235]

That's kind of true, but not exactly, because if you could think of 20 films better than half the top ten that aren't on YOUR list, then it's a legitimate gripe.

[@kleins-v7v]

The problem is they included a ton of foreign and old slop that no ones seen. Not a serious list.

[@jamespotter3660]

Hi, I'm new to the channel. Interesting chat (I've only seen the first half so far (time constraints) but on the Polanski point, it's interesting to see how long he will remain persona non grata. If you consider his canon, it's hard to imagine that he will never be accepted in polite conversation again. There are plenty of film directors who have committed heinous acts - how do we proceed with such dilemmas? Do we simply disown them, ignore them? Polanski has made at least four perfect near perfect films and many more very close.

[@Starkardur]

Objectively - I think both Citizen Kane and Tokyo Story can be considered the two greatest (you can see their influence on movies such as Jeanne Dielmann and Vertigo).

[@danboy77]

Do The Right Thing above Barry Lyndon….’ok then

[@blu-rayswithnathanjones]

Can't wait to rewatch this 🤘 Such a fun conversation!

[@FilmBloggerSam]

Cheers pal! Always a pleasure 👍

[@chrismohan]

Its only when watching this back do I see how many terrible Jones' puns we missed due to your mic cutting out ! :D

[@FilmBloggerSam]

@@chrismohan I don't think Nathan's mic was connected to the stream, so it was just his computer mic. It was 'enjoyable' on the playback to actually hear those puns, that we all know and love him for aha 😎

[@blu-rayswithnathanjones]

@@FilmBloggerSam I need to get a better setup 🤦‍♂️I hope that future conversations don't have that quality on my end

[@blu-rayswithnathanjones]

@@chrismohan The internet knew to cut it out 😂

[@RobertBellissimoAtTheMovies]

Great discussion guys! Really enjoyed it.

[@FilmBloggerSam]

Cheers Rob, it was a blast to record.

[@Kraisedion]

Great conversation! I will strongly disagree that it is problematic to have an "arthouse crowd" film at the top, but then I'm in the arthouse crowd, so definitely a little biased there. What I would say is that a list like this is meant to be for people with a passion for cinema as art (as you said, main job or hobby). It is not an entry-level list and that would do it a disservice and just be a different goal and purpose. It is a little comparable to saying we shouldn't put Ulysses as the greatest novel of all time because it might scare readers away. If you are a really casual film viewer/reader, academic/specialist lists are likely not the best place to start regardless, and as mentioned, even Citizen Kane and Vertigo may be a struggle for many modern audiences. I think most viewers will also have a general awareness of whether or not this film (or any of the other films on the list) sounds like something they are remotely interested in. How many readers start with Ulysses? And how many film buffs have "started" with Citizen Kane and Vertigo over the last 60 years? (Unless shown at the very first day in film class). Today viewers will most likely use any of the far more mainstream and accessible sources, say RottenTomatoes, IMDb, Letterboxd and younger sources I'm not familiar with, and then slowly, if they pick up a stronger passion for cinema, dive deeper - and I don't think anyone in that position will say, hmmm, this 3 and a half hour Belgian experimental/arthouse film must represent all/most classic/arthouse/critically acclaimed cinema. I think that's as likely as someone coming to the conclusion that Ulysses is a "standard" novel. Anyhow, very excited to see JD on top (though as mentioned, I'm biased) and loving all the conversations on what cinema is and should be it has released so far. We would not have gotten these conversations with Citizen Kane, Vertigo or even Tokyo Story or 2001, so for this alone I'm really grateful JD nudged out Vertigo.

[@ericeiserloh8170]

The one film for one director argument makes sense except that some of the films that have entered did so in pairs or paired up with other films by the same director, so the poll results speaks more about new preferences, and the real question is what they are and why? As for having more genre films, why? Isn't it more interesting to have a list that speaks to more of the most brilliant ways that cinema can be used as an art form? I do agree that this list has now become way to politicized, and will probably continue to be so, with various cadres of critics able to create a critical mass of support for whatever films become trendy favorites at a particular point in time.

[@MagnitudeReviews]

With the non-published invidual top 10 comments. What about if their vote included a check mark box on if they wanted their list to be public or private… or maybe even an anonymous option.

[@FilmBloggerSam]

That's a good suggestion 👍

[@sisterraysbrother]

the poll is "more accurate," Nathan? it is accurate in the sense that it reflects the cultural zeitgeist of 2022 more so than the 2012 poll does. why wouldn't it? but is it accurate in the sense that these are truly the 100 best films that cinema has ever produced? a 3 year old film that is now the 30th greatest film of all time (directed by a woman.) a "greatest" film that no one on your panel could muster any enthusiasm for. another female directed film, Meshes of the Afternoon, that 4 cinephiles (you can count me, so 5) have never heard of. and Cleo From 5 to 7, which came a few years after Breathless or The 400 Blows is now (apparently) the greatest film of the French New Wave. ?!? I think what you guys said about scaring people away may be best take from the 79 minute conversation here. these films don't represent the best films of all time. they represent the loudest voices in the room.

[@ignatiusjackson235]

Yas, queen! Jeez... that almost hurt to say...

[@shodate6324]

the fatc there is no Ai no korida i snot in the list shock me

[@urmintrude]

I know this is an old video and you hadn't seen it but calling News From Home a VLOG made my eye twitch.

[@FilmBloggerSam]

I still haven't seen the film, but intend to correct that soon with the arrival of the Akerman boxset from Criterion. By the description of letters being read over the top of footage of New York City, sounds like an avante garde video log to me lol but I'm probably extremely wrong about that, it's just the vibe I got from it's description. Thanks for commenting on a video this old 👍

[@urmintrude]

@@FilmBloggerSam hope you get something out of it. I saw it for the first time last year and was really moved by it

[@postmodernrecycler]

Somebody recently made a very emotional argument to me that 'Frenzy' was better than 'Vertigo'. I'd like to believe there's objectivity in collective subjectivity. No Buñuel or Malick on the list is troubling.

[@MuckMan_Movies]

I personally think there are better Japanese films than Sansho The Bailiff. Such as Hara-kiri or Onibaba which are masterpieces in my opinion. I'd like to see Whiplash in there. I also prefer Princess Mononoke over My Neighbour Totoro.

[@itsbeyondme5560]

Um....totoro is better film. It made me cry

[@FilmBloggerSam]

How Hara-kiri is not in the list is mind boggling. Thanks for watching 👍

[@omeshsingh8091]

There's more than a 100 countries in the world. Which countries matter and which countries don't matter? Should a country have dozens of films on the list? Should any director have more than 2 films on the list?

[@FilmBloggerSam]

Every country matters! And I think a director can have as many films on the list as the voters deem necessary. If diversity was the main point of the list, then they might have given restrictions for the voters, such as only 1 vote from a certain director etc. Thanks for watching!

[@omeshsingh8091]

​@@FilmBloggerSam I think S&S misses the boat completely when top tier filmmakers are not on the list at all. e.g. Theo Angelopoulos, (Eternity and a Day; Landscape in the Mist; The Travelling Players), Satoshi Kon (Millennium Actress; Perfect Blue; Paranoia Agent) Ernst Lubitsch (To Be or Not To Be; The Shop Around the Corner)

[@FilmBloggerSam]

This isn't what S&S thinks, this is what critics or directors think are the best films and S&S are just presenting the data. But I do agree, so many films and directors are absent, unfortunately many won't make the cut. That's where looking at individual top 10 lists comes in, so the film enthusiasts can search out deeper cuts and amazing films that havnt made the list. Cheers

[@beermarshal2070]

But each individual voter only gets 10 picks (except for a few long-time voters like Martin Scorsese who get 15). With 10 or 15 picks, you can't spotlight all or even a miniscule fraction of the filmmaking countries or the great directors. You can't even pick one film for each decade. So unless voters are deliberately colluding with each other to make the list more diverse and varied than it already is, you're simply not going to be able to encompass as great a breadth of cinema history, people, countries, languages, etc, as might be most desirable. And if you did do that then what? Would we have some quota system whereby every country gets at least one film? We have to face the fact that not all countries have had equal cinema histories - should, say, Lesotho and Nepal and Albania and Paraguay each get representation because that's "fair", at the expense of extra films from Japan, France, the USA and Germany, when the latter four countries have each produced hundreds of times as many films over their histories as the first four I named? And we could apply similar points to directors.

[@1165mac]

Diversity should weigh 0% in whether a film is considered a Top 100 masterpiece. The moment we let even ill-defined quotas dictate the quality of a film is when creativity begins to die. Let the cards fall where they may…

[@xpindy]

I'm relatively sure that, at 67, I've seen at least as many films as a lot of people who got to vote on this. If someone asked me for my "Top Ten Greatest Films of all Time', I would laugh at them and consider them intellectual lightweights. BTW, a majority a people who "love" Vertigo (count me in) don't really understand the film.

[@sayakchoudhury9711]

Isn't In the mood for love also should be considered a new millennium film? It was released in 2000 and Mulholland drive in 2001.

[@ignatiusjackson235]

Could be. There was no year zero, so technically: No. But... By that metric, 1990 would be part of the Eighties, 1980 would be part of the Seventies, 1970 would be part of the Sixties, and so on... So, colloquially... Yes?

[@ignatiusjackson235]

Either way, Mulholland Dr. doesn't belong anywhere near this list, let alone in the top ten.

[@deplaneetegmont]

Where's 'Ernest goes to jail'? What about 'Weekend at Bernie's II'? What's wrong with these people!

[@xpindy]

Weren't directed by women.

[@tomc8888]

@@xpindy The 1980 Village People musical "Can't Stop the Music" was directed by Nancy Walker. Penelope Spheeris directed "The Little Rascals" and "The Beverly Hillbillies". What about these movies, was it that they didn't have a gripping veal cutlet or potato peeling scene? Yeah, what's wrong with these people?

[@darkomilicevic9900]

Great chat guys. I think Quentin Tarantino deserves to have at least one film on the list.

[@FilmBloggerSam]

I would agree. Pulp Fiction would make the cut for me.

[@ignatiusjackson235]

Indeed. I do not trust any list that doesn't include Pulp Fiction in the top 100. That's not a reliable list.

[@marknewbold2583]

Ha ha ha...no

[@ignatiusjackson235]

It says a lot that only two of the top 10 here could be reccomended for everybody. I'd personally say that Citizen Kane is far more appealing than Singin' in the Rain. If this poll proves anything, it's that professional criticism has gone very far downhill since the days of Ebert and Siskel.

[@Kraisedion]

1. Why should the films appeal to everybody / why should the voters care about the films they personally consider the greatest of all-time appeal to everybody? 2. The meaning of "critic" is for the purpose of the poll expanded to include anyone in a roll where they could be considered experts on cinema, generally shortened to "critics, academics, archivists and programmers". 3. S&S is not a magazine for "everybody", but people specifically interested in cinema, ie film buffs/cinephiles, and every cinephile should certainly be recommended and see the full top 100.

[@ignatiusjackson235]

@@Kraisedion 1. I don't think all films should appeal to everybody, but it's pretty revealing that so few of the picks here appeal to anybody who has never been to film school. 2. So what? If I want to know how the risotto is made, I'm asking the chef, not the restaurant owner. That's why the directors poll is glaringly superior this year, as is usually the case I suppose. 3. I'll watch what I bloody well like, thank you. Starting with Pulp Fiction for the 400th time. Sure beats a woman peeling potatoes!

[@beermarshal2070]

None of the films on the entire list - in fact, no film ever made - could be recommended to "everybody". There are people I know who are fairly serious about cinema who dislike or outright hate virtually 100% of the canon. And beyond those admittedly extreme examples, there are LOTS of people with deep prejudices against, say, musicals, or gangster films, or science fiction. No such thing as making everybody happy or even making everybody say "OK" with such a list.

[@ignatiusjackson235]

@@beermarshal2070 Jesus, man. You know what I mean. Quit being pedantic about it. A lot of this stuff is pure niche. We both know that. If you had either (1) scoped the part of this video where they discuss this very topic or (2) read the first section my previous comment, then you'd be able to catch my drift without even trying.

[@beermarshal2070]

@@ignatiusjackson235 Sorry, wasn't trying to be pedantic. I just violently disagree with your premise. A large percentage - maybe the majority - of people I know who are serious about film don't like The Godfather, or Star Wars, or The Wizard of Oz. People have much more varied tastes from what I can see than what you seem to believe. Sure Jeanne Dielman is more niche than 2001, and 2001 is more niche than, I dunno, Titanic. But the list has always been niche compared to popular taste, it's just a bit more niche than before, that's all. The change is not IMO really dramatic.

[@ChubbyChecker182]

No Carry On Movies is a disgrace. I suppose if Goddard or Fellini directed one it would be in the list.

[@MagnitudeReviews]

In case if we all wanted to go on the record of famous films on the list that I flat out did not like and in many times found incredibly boring. - The Godfather - Daisies - Battle of Algiers - Casablanca

[@brutusalwaysminded]

What’s this fake currency of accessibility? I want to discover another world not watch what I already know. Movie lovers are born not made. Thanks for the chat in any case! ❤️☀️

[@FilmBloggerSam]

What we meant by accessibility is that of the actual film. Alot of films have not been available in all regions to watch until recently. There are many Japanese films that have not been distributed outside of Japan for example instance, that the rest of the world have not seen.

[@michaelz9892]

Tree of Life was the last great film.

[@FilmBloggerSam]

I think that's a fair comment. I think it's the best film released in the 2010s. We shall see what the legacy of the more modern films on the 2022 poll are...in 10 years aha

[@markbujdos584]

How can you take anybody seriously who had never heard of Meshes of the Afternoon?

[@ihatefanserviceanime364]

Woke list i don't think Portrait of a Lady on Fire,Get Out,Moonlight,Parasite should be on the list top 100

[@xpindy]

Come on, Get Out isn't even a good film- amateur night.

[@paulelroy6650]

why shouldnt Portrait of a Lady on Fire or Parasite be on the list?

[@Shah-of-the-Shinebox]

Get Out has no business being on this list, it''s predictable and ridiculously overrated. I love Portrait of a Lady on Fire but it being #30 is ludacris.

[@ignatiusjackson235]

Parasite could deserve a spot. I agree with the rest of your assessment.

[@kleins-v7v]

Moonlight absolutely belongs. I say get the french & japanese crap out and add moonlight, there will be blood, oppenheimer, tree of life, spring breakers, the thin red line

[@itsbeyondme5560]

In my personal opinion, you didn't get the film because you are not a woman. The film is a feminist point of view. A woman point of view about gender roles and society.

[@ihatefanserviceanime364]

Nah this lis is woke

[@itsbeyondme5560]

@@ihatefanserviceanime364 Oh please. I can say the same thing about top gun: conservative garbage. P.s. Don't bring politics or your views.

[@ignatiusjackson235]

@@itsbeyondme5560 You're both correct. Top Gun is conservative garbage and this list is definitely political. Neither of those facts are deniable.

[@marknewbold2583]

@@ihatefanserviceanime364 you are a parrot