Sigma FP exposure EP. 5: CDNG, BRAW and ProResRAW comparison

[@mr_cramberry]

Thankyou from behalf of sigma fp fans. Pls continue

[@marc-yp9vu]

Thank you so much for putting in all the work for us!

[@loubraga5800]

I love your FP experiments

[@VasilisOfficeHours]

So, just to clarify, in order to get ProRes and BRAW you capture using HDMI to an external Recorder, as I'm not aware of any options of capturing these formats directly on the camera itself...

[@IonCosmina]

yes.

[@meatbyproducts]

On rigging, I use the Wooden Camera cage. I like it better and it isn't a Chinese company. My top handle is the Kondor Blue handle that has the sandisck problade built in, and that covers my choice of external drives. The FP will not work with more than 2 TB drives. The blades are nice and swapping is fast. I also adapt to EF mount because the adapters I run have VND built in. I love having basically an internal VND. I shoot CDNG. I imput it to DiVinci Resolve and prep the files then save them as a Braw file. So I only deal with the big file size on the front end. Yes, 1tb is onky 45 minutes of 4k30, but the problades are not crazy expensive and are fast to swap.

[@IonCosmina]

I’ll definitely try to get the problade solution. Thanks

[@dangerrayy]

Great video. Thanks

[@photomg316]

always love your research on the fp !

[@Waadee101]

I love this video

[@philipmartinlacroix3050]

amazing work, thank you!

[@teamboaz3466]

Would love your thoughts on the new Ninja with el zone and the ability to turn raw video into a log format.

[@IonCosmina]

Will give it a review once I put my hands on it.

[@UriRa]

Well done on you for filming such material, even though it is controversial! It’s strange that you are still surprised by the process and volume. I easily shoot 7-8 TB, quickly edit and deliver the material. Don't be afraid of numbers, just use cheap 4 TB disks and don't download them, but mount directly from them... There is no point in recorders - in my opinion! I liked the pictures from the pipe factory in cdng, the cowboy - the quality is not worthy of Sigma fp) - was shot in a different format...

[@colingregg]

Outstanding

[@biharits]

I don't recommend using DR's technical LUTs (esp. for the Sigma fp) as they are really not flexible to use which is really essential to have for the fp. Use CM or CSTs instead and because the little fp is kind of clonky a bit in almost every technical stuff it offers (sorry Sigma :D) use CSTs for the most flexibility. What I usually do to get a normalized image of fp footage is: Make sure if you are working in a color managed timeline/workflow bypass color management for the fp footage. Camera Raw tab: - Decode using: Clip - CS: BMD - Gamma: BMD Film - Highlight recovery: yes in CST node for the fp clip (or group pre-clip): - Davinci WG/BMD Film > Davinci WG/Davinci Intermediate (or into a working CS you need) - Tone mapping methond: none - Gamut mapping: none (working nodes) out CST on the timeline: - Davinci WG/Davinci Intermediate > Rec.709/Rec.709-A (depending on needs) - Tone mapping methond: Davinci - Custom max input: max - Custom max output: 100 (but depending on needs) - Gamut mapping: Saturation compression - OOTF: no P.S.: I found DWG as input CS giving me more accurate colors than anything else 💁‍♂

[@IonCosmina]

Thanks a lot for your detailed explanation! After I finished this clip I started using the ACES workflow and it looks pretty good! The only downside I'm seeing is that you don't have access to most of the camera raw settings if you do that. I'll definitely give your workflow a try!

[@biharits]

​@@IonCosmina I didn't use ACES for a very long time so no idea if it is still the case, but back then it did funny things like inproper mapping of bigger input CS than ACEScc(t) (Alexa WG for example), or color shifts in highly saturated highlights (neon light sources or stuff like that, but a typical one: blue into purple) and so on.. hopefully most of them have been resolved since 1.1 😅

[@IonCosmina]

Auch ACES! It looks OK now. The footage I have has a lot of highlight areas and it didn't do any weird things. In terms of using other color spaces, I've had some problems when I exported the clips sometimes (both in apple pro res and h264)- the image looked a bit less saturated and more contrasty than what the graded image looked in the color tab. Did you ever get that? I tried fiddling with the export settings and it was somewhat better but not spot on so I thought maybe it's the color space mapping that's not getting compressed right?! I haven't tried exporting this ACES one yet

[@biharits]

@@IonCosmina I put my answer here twice and disappeared twice. So instead of writing here's a video from Cullen Kelly referring to the problem you have. In short it is a gamma shift in DR's viewer on Mac systems and displays. kzbin.info/www/bejne/iHPGpYBomJl6h6s

[@IonCosmina]

Thank you!

[@KMLR2012]

Thanks. I learned some stuff.

[@taikanekkula5386]

Great video. If only I understood everything as I'm new to most of this. I'm confused...how is it bye bye for monitoring false colours if you use external monitor via HDMI? Doesn't most even cheaper monitors than BM assist or Atomos Ninja have their own false colour tools? What is the difference using false colour monitoring on Sigma FP screen vs. monitoring the output image on external monitor screen using their own false colour functions?

[@IonCosmina]

Hi! I go over it briefly around min 7:50, you can see the external monitors' false colors vs the internal Sigma FP one there. The biggest problem is that the monitors that have false colors don't "know" what IRE the clipping point is for Sigma FP. So it's going to look as if your footage is clipped at an exposure where it can actually be below clipping. If you're looking at exposures around the 0.0 EV point (+/- 1 or 2 EV) the monitors' false colors should look approximately the same as Sigma's ones. I haven't looked at this case or the shadow recovery portions of the image properly , to see how accurate these cases are on external monitors. I will say though that this is a Sigma FP problem because if you use the 12G BM monitor with a BMPCC6K the false colors are (obviously) spot on - exactly as the internal false colors. Atomos also probably has a list of cameras it knows how to interpret perfectly. We haven't used Atomos with other cameras that havean internal false colors monitoring system as well so I'm not 100% sure unfortunately. But we do have a sony a7sIII that can output ProResRAW so it's worth testing this out against the theoretical clipping points you get from Sony. I'll try to make a more detailed video asap and get back to you with a link. Hope this helps!

[@taikanekkula5386]

@@IonCosmina Hi. Thank you for the answer, it clarifies things. I forgot to reply earlier. Another question, not directly about exposure but thought to give it a shot since you seem very friendly. About monitors and Sigma FP: I see many videos where people have rigged their Sigma FP in a way that the external power solution/battery they put behind the display "blocks" the access (of fingers) to it and even the view. They have external monitor. Nobody ever bothers to tell (or for whatever reason answer if asked) how do they control the camera. I assume it's via the cable of external monitor, but there seems to be no info available about which monitor can control which camera. Sigma does not list them, nor does any particular monitor manufacturer list which cam they can control. Is it universal that if the monitor can control one cam it can control any cam that has the ability to be controlled that way? Which external monitors can control Sigma FP and how? If you know please let me know also, thanks.

[@IonCosmina]

@@taikanekkula5386 I didn’t ever try to block the screen like the others. I don’t know of any monitor that can control the sigma fp. I guess they have it set how they wanted from the beginning and just push record. We use the sigma fp lcd quite often because it’s the most reliable to check for exposure. We use the video assist BM 12g for recording externally and it has no option to control the camera.

[@taikanekkula5386]

@@IonCosmina ​ Oh wow...and I thought I was missing something or asking them a stupid question. Once nobody never answered my question my thought was exactly that maybe they set it from the beginning and then just shoot, which made me start to wonder what they use the camera for and so I felt it would be too limiting way to use the camera if that were the case. I guess them mainly being youtubers (and not necessarily filmmakers) they used it for projects that does not require changing settings in the middle of the shoot as much as I do, but I still can't think many ways to use it like that (maybe shooting talking head video for their channel in studio...or some other extremely controlled environment with no variables). I use it for making short movies and with limited budget for relevant variables (such as lightning, filters...locations) I or my DP when I'm directing have to constantly change the settings to get the right exposure etc. So far I have used few internal batteries for shooting but for longer days bigger power source would be handy. Well, if I choose to go for external battery I have to modify the rigging and leave space for lcd. Anyway, thank you so much for your quick reply. I love my Sigma FP for independent small budget short movies. I use external monitor for framing and focus and record on external ssd but by your earlier suggestion I now expose using lcd. For what they use the cam for...beats me. I guess they rig it differently when they need to actually control it, but they never mention it.

[@olegsema5486]

Молодцы.

[@abindodoliu6744]

so good~

[@axeffect2293]

Hey im not so well informed and smart like you guys to get the overall picture but if i could judge overall exposure of CDNG How many stops of over or underexposure could i go for before its unrecoverable in post. Also in Low light you did say in another video that the Sony A7Siii was noisier than the FP. So Can the FP in CDNG do better at ISO12800 where it's Sony's second base ISO?

[@IonCosmina]

Hi, many apologies for the very late reply! For the over exposure side you can follow the numbers in the table from page 3 of this paper drive.google.com/file/d/1R9_nBXTeXs1FsE41HYH0XzDrwftatdyA/view . For the underexposure, it’s more tricky because the more underexposed you are, the more noise you will get even if you can technically recover details. So I guess how low you can go depends also on how much you want to reduce the noise in post. The noise levels also depend on how you light your scene. So for example if you have deep shadows, they will have less noise. You can check out our video on sigma in low light and you will see that the images that were lit using one small light source that just lights the face of the character or a small surface of the room, look less noisy than the the images from the 1 hour CDNG test shots. Overall, I’d say I wouldn’t underexpose more than 3 f-stops if I want that bit of the image to be clean - acceptable noise, no or acceptable color shift. Sony A7Siii vs Sigma FP noise levels. That’s a also tricky... So we compared: - sony ISO 6400 vs Sigma FP iso 6400. Here the sony image looks like it has more light but sigma has less noise - sony 12800 iso vs sigma 6400. Sony has A LOT more info in the image, because the image is much brighter BUT the image is more pasty (as a result of the internal noise reduction), has a lower quality than sigma’s So definitely on Sigma don’t use an ISO higher than 6400 on low light, otherwise it will be very noisy. If you have a situation where ISO 6400 is enough, than use sigma rather than sony if you want crisp image with low noise. BUT if you absolutely need to make your image appear brighter (hence you need more help from your ISO), than use sony at iso 12800. If you want more control over your noise reduction, don’t use internal XAVCS, use a ninja external recorder in ProResRAW. This will produce a noisier image compared to the XAVCS but it’s not going to be pasty and lack crispness and you can decide how you want to do the noise reduction.

[@axeffect2293]

@@IonCosmina Thank you so much for the detailed response! As far as context for ISO12800 in Sigma FP, I would be outdoors in low light where it's completely dark and subject is low lit like street lamp or tubelights or lamps and controlling the lighting is not in my hands. Then at ISO 12800 Sigma FP is it easy for noise reduction in post? . Also if converting the DNG TO BRAW in Davinci does it change anything in terms of noise levels or noise reduction capabilities ? And finally I really want you guys to post more technical content and some of your work too! You guys have really understood your cameras very well! Love the dedication and hardwork you guys put in to these tests. It's not easy and I sincerely hope your KZbin channel makes it big!! Thank you so much!!

[@IonCosmina]

Hi! My advice is don't use sigma fp with ISO 12800! Use iso 6400 maximum. BRAW is cleaner than cdng if you shoot it directly on an external recorder, I never tried converting it from cdng in post-production so I honestly don't know. Thank you so much for your wishes 😊! We hope to continuously bring better content and nicer looking videos! But we are slow 🦥...

So, what’s most true to color, CDNG or BRAW?

[@IonCosmina]

It depends on your workflow, but I would say BRAW

[@UriRa]

Forgive me for being harsh. I looked at the information only on the disks, from which I realized that you did not test them properly, relying on rumors while creating the appearance of reliable information. Perhaps the translation into Russian is to blame, in this case my apologies, I’ll try to look further) I’ll just write that good disks do not overheat, there is no decrease in speed on volumes of 2 or 4 TB, the camera calmly writes CDNG continuously - this is real, reliable information posted on the network, verified on specific disks.

[@IonCosmina]

We only report what happens to us. We only tried a few ssd’s. But we can’t record for longer that 20 min with most ssd we tried and after that, it records only for a few seconds. It might be our camera, our many cables, or the ssd’s. I heard of many that T5 or T7 are good. Our ssd of choice is samsung t7. There might be better options that we never tried.

[@IonCosmina]

(Cosmina:)hi! no worries, thank you for your thoughts and thoroughness! I wouldn't say i'm surprised at cdng data rates, but i still don't like the fact that I need to use up so much space. It sounds reasonable to have a work flow that you're happy with in cdng, i don't think it's impossible. It sounds like you found a good deal for yourself. we tested all the ssd's of 1TB that we talked about and they did overheat. The cable can also contribute to that, we changed the cable and in some situations it made a difference. some ssd s indeed don't overheat, like you were saying, high quality ones don't. The cowboy shots - it was 4K braw 3:1 BUT the FD lens is a very old lens so i think that's why you're seeing the drop in quality.

[@UriRa]

​@@IonCosmina, Yes, the Samsung T7 Shield 4TB costs me 200 US dollars, I write on them non-stop, just like on the T5. And I don’t care about the volume of data, since editing occurs directly from the disks. It is much more important that uncropped data is written, which I like with fp much more than the results from cameras that are noticeably more expensive and popular in the professional environment. Thank you for your understanding! With the cowboy, I see the problem as an exposure metering error or compression loss. Old lenses are not capable of making a frame look flat. The last video I posted was from an old Soviet lens that I hadn’t used for 35 years. In my opinion, he did a good job...

[@ddelacruz]

🤣🤣👍🏼 wow so much info! 🤓🤓

[@prostoparen]

Is it possible to monitor SigmaFP image in NATIVE/HLG gamma on Atomos Ninja when you send only monitoring output from SigmaFP or is it working only when you record in prores raw?

[@IonCosmina]

We didn’t try it in a while and there where many updates on both the sigma and the ninja so I’ll get back to you on that shortly.

[@prostoparen]

that would be great@@IonCosmina

[@IonCosmina]

I tested it. Ninja V does not allow HLG/PQ settings while you have the Sigma fp set for monitoring output. You only get NATIVE so whatever colour mode you set your Sigma to show on its LCD.

[@prostoparen]

@@IonCosmina thank you. I guess prores is the way then)

[@IonCosmina]

@@prostoparen raw. It’s not bad. :)

[@dondantes1992]

you are not properly displaying the prores raw in the final cut. Swap the conversion and correction layers. If it's relevant, of course.

[@IonCosmina]

so first put the color correction, and then the conversion?

[@chumleyk]

1.5 hours of rizz /s

[@rafibenatar2519]

Great Job 🙌🙏🏻