Sonic 3 Prototype - Drop Dash Analysis

[@LeivenFrestea]

Love how the stream immediately went chaotic when the drop dash happens like there's four people caps locked "DROP DASH"

[@some_body_else3636]

it took a moment just like any stream. but it was kinda funny

[@globalistgamer6418]

WAKE UP BABE NEW DASH JUST DROPPED

[@aerodynamo4874]

At the time of Sonic Mania's original annoucements, there was actually a lot of praise for the Drop Dash being a reinterpretation of that one bug where if you spindash while on a falling surface or something, Sonic would instantly launch off when hitting the ground. I honestly believe that most, considering the dev team's whole history of revamping old concepts (e.g. CD 2011's unused zones, Sonic 1/2 2013, Mania itself lmao). But Iizuka pitching it to them is also a pretty interesting way to look at it too, as once again, he was the reason Sonic Mania wasn't only 4 original zones.

[@soniccd9983]

I was always fascinated by this as a kid it was just really cool seeing sonic move when he's not supposed to

[@sikthehedgehog]

My theory is that Iizuka remembered about the drop dash and gave it an easy greenlight without realizing it was a coincidence :P (honestly until he says something about it we'll never know for sure) Also yeah it never looked like a bug to me (though the spindash part sounds like one). Buggy yes, but accidentally setting a spindash from pressing _up_ mid-air would require either some really broken spindash code or memory corruption.

[@SilverSonic1992]

Yeah, the Drop Dash is basically a glorified Spin Dash. It puts Sonic into a 1 frame Spin Dash when he touches the ground, but it won't release if you happen to be holding down. They might've fixed that later on had it not been scrapped.

[@legolloyd2009]

@@SilverSonic1992 That's also how it works in the Origins versions of 1, 2, and CD. minus the holding down part.

[@BlueBerryPieCherry]

​@@legolloyd2009 they literally built the drop dash into Origins and thats no coincidence 😭

[@legolloyd2009]

@@BlueBerryPieCherry I didn't say it was a coincidence. I was just pointing out something I noticed.

[@BlueBerryPieCherry]

@@legolloyd2009 All I was saying here was Origins used stuff from Mania, so it takes no genius to realize that its IN Origins 😭

[@frostgamer9820]

In the final game Mecha Sonic has an attack that behaves very similar to this move. He also has attacks that behave a lot like the flame shield and bubble shield.

[@DarkAura19]

I'm willing to chalk it up to it being a coincidence honestly. As fantastic as the Drop Dash is, I feel like the idea of "A spindash you charge in the air" is not THAT farfetched of an idea for a Sonic ability for it to have come up more than once. I can also see Izuka, intentionally or otherwise, pitching it or workshopping it with the team. Either way I just can't see the existance of it being some ellaborate pyramid scheme lol

[@JamesR624]

Considering the tools the Mania dev team had at their disposal and CONFIRMATION they had prototype assets avalible. It's pretty plain to see that it's NOT a coincidence at all and SEGA couldn't just admit there was a scrapped move from Sonic 3 int he same way they never publicly acknowledged Hidden Palace in Sonic 2 until MANY years later. Hell, between this and hte legal battles Sonic 3 had been facing for years, it's plain to see that they couldn't talk about Sonic 3 much AT ALL.

[@Javesike]

I'm glad to see this prototype move in Sonic 3 made its way into Sonic Mania, despite being shocked to see it was in Sonic 3. Not gonna lie, I actually made a drop dash based of the Spindash when I was going to make a Super Peel Out for my Sonic rom hack, I ended up with a drop dash like move and that was before Sonic Mania came out like in 2016.

[@evdestroy5304]

I 100% think they had access to early Sonic 3 stuff during Mania's development, especially considering Taxmam confirmed he had access to early CD stuff when the 2011 remaster was in development. Judging from the fact that it puts Sonic into a spindash when you hold down on the D-pad, im assuming it's actually just a one-frame spindash? This is actually how Origins handles it (except for Sonic 3).

[@SilverSonic1992]

Yes, it's a one-frame spindash. There is reason to believe that Sonic 3 development materials are (or were) kept under lock and key for obvious reasons. Consider how little development material was released prior to Sonic Origins in comparison to the plethora for Sonic 1 and 2. Sonic Origins is of course special for being forced to acknowledge the legal situation. I don't think the Mania team was given access to Sonic 3 stuff for Mania, possibly not even for Origins. SEGA of Japan was entirely responsible for the parts of Origins outside of the RSDK.

[@evdestroy5304]

@@SilverSonic1992 I knew Sonic Team themselves worked on the non-3K portions of Origins, I just thought it was a neat coincidence how the dropdash works similarly in the two games.

[@FrijolesyQueso]

Considering that Sonic Origins most likely took S3's replacement tracks from a actual prototype, its not out of the question the same prototype given to Jun, was also the one given to the Mania team.

[@train4292]

It’s nice that this once cut move from Sonic 3 now became a staple move in Classic Sonic’s moveset. Hell, it’s even starting to com into the 3D games of Frontiers is anything to go by.

[@starlite_music-g1s]

Here's a small observation/theory of mine, take it with a grain of salt I'm no level design expert, but it seems like a lot of Sonic 3's "weird" level design elements, like having more breakable walls and elements requiring a spindash than the previous games, seem to be a result from them being designed with the dropdash in mind Playing stuff like Sonic 3 AIR with the dropdash makes the zones feel a lot more snappy and natural to play Of course, I can't confirm this was the case, but it's fun to speculate

[@rigsthecat]

makes sense

[@not4nikiii]

"Great minds think alike" so it would make sense for "great games to control alike"

[@Magoflipante85]

i fucking love your videos so fuckign much dude i just can't get enough of them

[@SilverSonic1992]

Thanks!

[@awsomedude2.053]

This is awesome they have been thinking about this since 1993 but I guess they never knew how to make it look cool until mainia

[@Brainulator9]

I took the alien emoji to be a reference to the far-out, spooky nature of this coincidence. And to me, given the differences in implementation, as well as other comments by Whitehead et al. about the creation of the Drop Dash in Mania and the fact that we had no idea this move existed in Sonic 3 at any point back in 2016, makes me think this is a coincidence.

[@shadowopsairman1583]

I know one thing is for sure the drop dash sound effect after it is released makes a screeching noise which is very annoying in Sonic mania

[@Vrabsher_-Supreme_Perhinther-]

The drop dash lore really goes deeper than we thought .

[@EuGostodeAçaí]

Sonic Mania : the NEW drop dash!! Sonic 3 prototype : 🤨🤨

[@somerandomperson7]

Ignore I misunderstood the script Original Comment Since SCD 2011 Christan has been trying to add the drop dash if you look in the PlayerObject script Player Value 14 is Player Drop Dash Charge as a Variable with a comment stating that its been unused since 2011 so its probably a coincidence. (Unless I'm misunderstanding what it meant)

[@SilverSonic1992]

That's interesting. Is it an official comment from Christian Whitehead, or by the people who recompiled the game? That comment might also be referring to the variable itself; perhaps it was unused until the Drop Dash later used it? I don't know much about the RSDK games though.

[@somerandomperson7]

​@@SilverSonic1992 The decomp. I might be misunderstanding the comment on the script.

[@somerandomperson7]

​@@SilverSonic1992Alright yeah I was completely misunderstanding the comment it was named Unused2 before origins still weird on why 2 values are skipped

[@SilverSonic1992]

@@somerandomperson7 Ah, well, it's okay.

[@segahatty]

1:32 Finally, someone has address this oddity. I can safely sleep tonight.

[@babyjeff]

i wouldn’t put too much stake in the iizuka theory, as considering they’ve been known to have access to official unused content archives while working on the 2011 CD port, it’s more than likely they found out about this move themselves through prototypes, planning documents, or something like that which sega had backed up. the confidence with which stealth incorrectly called it a bug and whitehead’s response are suspicion enough in my book lol, i think sega must have them under NDA

[@Royameadow]

There is also the debate about whether or not Chaotix also delivered its own precursor to the Drop Dash, given how delicate the input precision may be interpreted: As Vector, you have the ability to do an Eight Way Double Jump, so obviously it is possible for him to forcibly dive all the way down; if you time your Down Jump in a way where you can then convert it into a Single to Six Tap Spindash, in many ways it feels like an alternate take on being able to retain the concept of the Drop Dash while being more precise and aggressive in how you land and boost; whether or not this was influenced by experimentation from the internal builds of Sonic 03 (before it became Part 0I) is beyond presently public information, we would need to discover a lot more about both it and Chaotix to know if there were any creative overlaps outside of the obvious from CD '93 and also the fact that Chaotix takes place directly after the events of Knuckles' campaign (given the gravity of Floating Island helps bring Isolated Island out of the water), I'm certain that there had to have been some ideas shared across both teams in a similar manner to MD '92 and CD '93 and it would be nice to know the specifics as to what was being shared back and forth for the development of many mechanics that ultimately would become a mainstay in the decades to follow.

[@some_body_else3636]

didn't understand shit. but okay 👍

[@Cr102y]

Christian Whitehead had access to and released some unused stuff from Sonic CD’s R2,right? Perhaps they did had access to a Sonic 3 prototype.

[@AlulaJustAlula]

This proves a lot. Apparently, Drop Dash was supposed to be introduced in Sonic 3, But it was discarded for unknown reasons and replaced by Insta Shield. This also proves that Christian Whitehead And the Sonic Mania Team had this Prototype in hand, played this Prototype and used the basis of what Drop Dash was to do in Sonic 3 to what we saw in Sonic Mania. So Probably, The Fact Of Drop Dash Being In Sonic 3 Is Not A Coincidence Or A Bug If It Was Really Programmed.

[@Mr_Ultimate]

i was actually the person who had tweeted christian whitehead, i thought he was being sarcastic imo

[@SONIC3ANIMATION100]

Mostly if you do the drop dash on anything breakable it will try to run the code but instead it reads the wrong part triggering a game crash maybe

[@some_body_else3636]

probably just a coincidence if you ask me. sonic is a simple game played with just a d-pad and four buttons, so probably it was a coincidence. in sonic mania you activate the dropdash by jumping and holding jump (if I'm not mistaken) but in the S3 prototype you use up instead, so probably a coincidence. plus many famous social media faces use emojis. like I'm pretty sure one day your favourite KZbinr replied to you but they used an emoji, but that's for a reason. you see bc of my experience in Reddit (that was a long time ago) i figured that if your comment/post had an image it would cause more people to read it because the image gets a bit of attention instead of plain text, but in cases where the platform is so shitty they copy a worse and very hated platform (*cough* *cough* youtube *cough* *cough*) or you don't have an image/don't feel an image is necessary, like in the case with the twitter post. you can use emojis Thier bright colours would attract a person's attention too. so yeah that's my in-depth explanation 👽👽👽 (alien emoji so ppl would read this)

[@MrEvilbyte]

That Alien emoji. Hiding in plain sight. Maybe xD

[@Chillipeffer]

DEEP CUT

[@sanicsanic6890]

Also if you slow the video down you can see that for a single frame Sonic has his spin dash sprite

[@DarkbluesEXE25]

What-If Sonic the hedgehog 3 & Knuckles Complete with Drop-Dash

[@midwestfest426]

I think the people who developed Sonic Mania had to sign a NDA and one day long from now the truth will come out.

[@Reanmashups]

Hi i am a fan of your content and was wondering what programs you used to look in to the code for sonic 3s prototype

[@SilverSonic1992]

Any decent text editor will work as long as you have a disassembly.

[@Reanmashups]

@@SilverSonic1992 which disassembly do you recommend

[@SilverSonic1992]

@@Reanmashups The GitHub version.

[@Reanmashups]

@@SilverSonic1992 I found one called Ghirda would that work for the disassembly part?

[@SilverSonic1992]

@@Reanmashups There's already a public disassembly of Sonic 3, so you shouldn't need to do that.

[@patatiarco-iris4266]

Not wanting to ask these things but are you the creator of the Sonic 3C delta?

[@c-4gamingcentral28]

Can you do the unused Zones in Sonic 3 1103 prototype, without them being restored???

[@SilverSonic1992]

I plan on making a video on Mushroom Valley Zone at some point. The other unused zones are more or less in the same state that they were in the final version of Sonic 3 (with the exception of Lava Reef Zone).

[@c-4gamingcentral28]

​@@SilverSonic1992Oh, I also see you have a Discord??? Can I join???

[@gonzalomendoza8178]

​@@SilverSonic1992si es que puedes podrías hacer que el Big arms del Sonic 3 aparezca en Sonic 3 & Knuckles? (Osea cuando estemos jugando con Sonic o Tails)

[@dafneorlow]

I think the Drop Dash is one of the most POINTLESS things to exist in a sonic game that already had a spin dash/peel out

[@Auricalios]

Except that you have to stop and stand still to perform a spindash whereas the drop dash keeps your flow going.

[@dafneorlow]

@@Auricalios still not as fast as a spin dash tho. A drop dash won't get you around a loop, without coming off a steep hill first or hitting a speed booster.

[@starleaf-luna]

they could've removed it due to it being buggy with the removable objects.

[@SonicPlayer2004]

And fixing them would’ve likely required more development time.

[@SONIC3ANIMATION100]

Figured the real answer so there’s an used code on 1103 causes this it’s because it’s still the sonic 2 engine let’s zoom back to 1991 shall we ok so Sonic 1 contains the drop dash Sonic 2 overwrites the code causing a glitch with the d-pad when you press up then jump maybe Sega accidentally enabled the code That causes a shit bug anlize: the code for it still exists it’s just buggy… it’s used because it was planned but I guess they decide to scrap it like sonic 2

[@NeoExperiences]

Didn't expect this to ever resurface, Whitehead was pretty open about this and had a post explaining that the "drop dash" from the prototype was just buggy spin dash code and in no shape or form inspired Mania.

[@flyforce16]

Please keep up the great prototype/beta content! I never believed Christian Whitehead when he was asked about this. Kind of scummy of him and Stealth to lie about it.

[@Roebloz]

Yeah, the alien emoji from Whitehead really tells me it was probably an NDA or something preventing him from saying it.

[@aerodynamo4874]

I think you guys are looking at this like coincidences literally can't happen in this world. Think about it, not even they knew about everything this prototype had when Mania was developed. All we knew of this S3 build was that it was the point of time in which they still used Sonic 2 sprites. There's no serious way you can tell me that Whitehead and Stealth "stole" a bugged S3 feature when it's so obsecured that they wouldn't even know about it in the first place lmao. Honestly, the only theory that has some valid sense is Iizuka pitching it to them, since he's the whole reason Sonic Mania was more than 4 zones anyway, but even that is a huge stretch. And plus, development is development, we technically aren't entitled to know shit about what actually happened behind the planning process

[@flyforce16]

@@Roebloz You're right, that's most likely

[@SomeRobIoxDude]

The tone of this comment makes me think that you think that just because they didnt admit that they took the drop dash from the S3 proto (probably bcus of a contract, yk how NDAs are) means Christian Whitehead and Stealth are immediately bad people Sorry if this sounds rude btw

[@Pikminenjoyerbunchofnumbers]

I mean a spin dash charged in the air feels like something that would be thought of pretty easily for a unique move for sonic Edit: especially because one of the complaints in the classic games is that landing from a jump can kill your momentum

[@gengar-1997]

I'm agreeing with Christian Whitehead.

[@dannybarbosabr]

Hello silver, do you have Discord?

[@gabbe_horn]

Im also wondering

[@tehdrago]

:SourPls