This Sonic 3 Prototype Reveals a 20-Year-Old Secret

[@scpnoobers]

Egg Robo is clearly not Dr.Eggman “wearing a metal hat to keep knuckles from knowing it’s him”, Egg Robo is clearly a rogue robot that thinks it’s Dr.Eggman seen in Sky Sanctuary being released by the death egg.

thank god you wrote this comment

[@hamzamohamed6774]

Why what's wrong

[@newtonshiggers]

I thought that was exactly what he was as a child, 'cos on a playthrough as Knuckles as I dropped a landing glide onto the weather machine - Dr. Robotnik and not Egg Robo came up. But of course, when you factor in that Knuckles' story takes place after Sonic's, it doesn't make sense 'cos Knuckles knows Robotnik is evil by that point.

[@SonicPlayer2004]

@@newtonshiggers That was a sprite loading glitch.

[@giacomo_9815]

you should watch the sonic 3 bonus video by cybershell. he does an infinitely better job at explaining this

[@whact]

4:51 it's not a disguise, it's an eggrobo that survived the fall from Sky Sanctuary

[@cheesiestsandwich]

Ik like, has this person ever seen sonic 3 & knuckles?

[@HedgeRobo]

tbh the idea is funny though lol

[@HKG4]

Honestly I like the disguise idea better, definitely feels like a Robotnik sorta thing to do

[@whact]

@@HKG4 what would be the point of it though

[@Qwertyexists]

I thought the egg robo was sent by Robotnik, it doesn't look beat or damaged in any way so how would it be damaged, ik Undyne has this issue but like idk

[@malharezyoutube]

Eggman doesn’t wear a metal head, it’s a rogue Egg Robo, we know this because it literally gets destroyed in sky sanctuary by Mecha Sonic MKII.

[@jdh9419]

wdym rogue? It's still going to Robotnik's wishes, which was to obtain the Master Emerald. So technically, it didn't go rogue

[@litavbarer-kahana5509]

@@jdh9419it did. It did everything under the command of Mecha Sonic MK. II.

[@jdh9419]

@@litavbarer-kahana5509 Wasn't Mecha Sonic MK.II under the command of Robotnik?

[@malharezyoutube]

@@jdh9419 accidentally.

[@carnage0685]

@@malharezyoutube it wasn't an accident. mecha mk2 was programmed to continue robotnik's work after he was gone.

[@LogicLeftTheGame]

This video was researched very badly: 1) We knew long ago about the oddity of Flying Battery that doesn't have any Knux specific paths; 2) When you said that Eggman wears a metal cap when he fights Knux so he doesn't reconize him, it's totally wrong. It a survived Eggrobo from Sky Sanctuary Fall; 3) Sonic 3 was splitted because of the deadline of their McDonalds advertisement; 4) The prototype shows us that it was compiled before MJ got into development: just go to the Wiki page of Sonic 3 and read the section of MJ into development;

[@glowdonk]

It's really funny how McDonalds of all things caused a game to split in two due to the deadline

[@johnregan7290]

I don't think Knuckles is fighting Robotnik in a hat, that's a different character, a rogue Eggrobo. Knuckles storyline takes place after the Sonic and Tails storyline. When you start a Knuckles game in Sonic and Knuckles you get a cutscene, this scene never plays when you lock-on Sonic 3. When you play as Knuckles there's a few differences to hint that it takes place later. In Launch Base there's no death egg in the background since it launched during Sonic's game. In Sandopolis Act 2 the ghosts are already free since Sonic released them. People suspect the original plan was for Knuckles to skip Flying Battery, and that was a last-minute change to make the game a bit longer for Knuckles. Which is why there's no Knuckles-only routes and you fight Robotnik instead of Eggrobo.

[@Bloxed]

When you beat Sonic3K with only chaos emeralds, no supers, and beat Doomsday with Super Sonic, you see a cutscene post-credits where an eggrobo wakes up from rubble, definitely the robo who Knuckles fights.

[@pawcanada]

I've also heard it said because Eggman/Robotnik uses a different sprite in this fight, that may have been why that one wasn't updated. I imagine there was a "If Knuckles is in this level, replace Eggman Boss Sprite 1 with Eggrobo Boss Sprite 1" in the code, or something like that, and because it's different (say "Eggman Boss Sprite 2") it gets overlooked. If this was a rushed addition to Knuckles' route, it makes sense it might have been overlooked or found too late to update it.

[@thomased22legoyodagaming]

This is true.

[@ghostfire3315]

@@pawcanada Yup. That's pretty much the case.

[@MalzraAirwynn]

I like to think Robotnik went back to flying battery after losing to Sonic in Doomsday Zone and Knuckles just happens to come by to beat him up a bit before going after egg robo again.

[@Peepimus]

3:38 - And there’s “Sonic 2” sprites…! * zooms in to clearly “Sonic 3” sprites *

[@jdh9419]

Yes

[@janitoalevic]

Lol

[@ShadowScrub]

That's not the Doctor in disguise, that's an Eggrobo, an "elite" Badnik made in Eggman's image that are fought in Sky Sanctuary Zone. Worth noting is that in Sonic Mania, a group of them become the Hardboiled Heavies.

[@antiseize11]

Several things to point out: 1. All of this have been discussed already since 2019, way too late talking about all this now 2. Sonic 3 is going on 30 years now actually 3. They had to split the game in two to make McDonald's promotion with the hedgehog 4. Sonic & Knuckles actually ended up with 7 zones, 8 if you count the Hidden Place portion of Lava Reef as a separate zone 5. It was already a well known fact that Flying Battery were supposed to come after Carnival Night 6. You can say that Knuckles share Tails' paths in Flying Battery, but does that technically makes these Knuckles' own paths since Tails is not natively playable on Sonic & Knuckles standalone??? Just a thought 7. Robotnik wears a metal helmet for disguise??? No, this is another enemy called Egg Robo, who have survived Sonic's run and then went on to replace the actual Robotnik as boss, since Knuckles' run takes place after Sonic's 8. Those tracks and a few others were composed by Brad Buxer actually, who collaborated with Michael Jackson on some of them, the latter left the development reporting unsatisfaction with the sounds on the game and was subsequently not credited. Its not widely known why these "prototype" tracks were specifically replaced with the final ones, but we know now why the latter could not be used in further rereleases, the very reason why this game was constantly skipped over for many years up until recently

[@vincentadamsvga]

I can't recall any Tails only areas in Flying Battery other than those two monitors near the very start, so even then there wouldn't be Knuckles only areas since Tails doesn't either.

[@antiseize11]

@@vincentadamsvga Oh okay, I didn't know for sure

[@ironclock]

Damn this mf got so many things wrong. Good comment

[@rolero1596]

All ok except Michael staff. Sega and Michael started working together but Sega stopped it because was the time when Michael scandals started to make some sounds and Saga did not like to have him involved in their products

[@antiseize11]

@@rolero1596 That's not the reason, Sega didn't drop him, Michael left on his own accord citing unsatisfactory with the system's audio production. Because of the subsequent scandals involving Michael did Sega chose not to credit him or market the game with his name attached to it, and it was this that caused complications for the game to receive future rereleases.

[@tkain61]

By "recently", you mean between 4 and 5 years ago. And that "20 year-old" secret is nearing 30 years old now.

[@aldristatsu]

I was going to say... I swear Cutting Room Floor website's content about Sonic games was definitely a thing I read about, and there definitely were prototypes out about Sonic 3 and such, thus why we have what we have in knowledge today about the topic, right?

[@Kokomadeta]

I had a Sonic 3 prototype rom from The Hidden Palace over a decade ago. I think I got it around 2008.

[@Danyplaysboblox]

I know this the fact that it was originally going to first introduce the drop sash, but was scrapped till Sonic Mania. I’m not sure why did it change

[@VXA1PSTART]

When I played the Prototype for the first time, it(the dropdash) was kinda bugged. Idk if that's just me using it at the wrong place, but if this is the case, then it was understandable to cut it from the game.

[@Danyplaysboblox]

@@VXA1PSTART I remember when trying it out, sometimes, you can be stuck in the drop dash state if you done the wrong & glitching timing

[@VXA1PSTART]

​@Danyplaysboblox then that's maybe the most plausible theory of why it was cut.

[@Danyplaysboblox]

@@VXA1PSTART I remember I fricking drowned cuz if this

[@_memoryleak_]

i’m pretty sure that was unintentional, or at least an overlooked bug caused by something else. it was confirmed that mania did not take inspiration from the s3 “drop dash”, and even then it wouldn’t be plausible since the prototype surfaced around 2020

[@conradojavier7547]

Knuckle's Story is set AFTER Sonic's Adventure in Angel Island.

[@harrybest2041]

4:51 Apparently EggRobo sprites did exist in the files specifically for this battle, just it wasn't coded correctly to appear instead of Eggman's. EggRobo does appear in the zone just before the vertical section leading to the battle. The video where I got this from: Sonic 3 & Knuckles - The Eggrobo Sprite Conundrum by Silver Sonic 1992 I didn't directly link the video because the comment could get deleted, and I don't want to risk being temporarily banned from commenting again. Yes, this is what commenting on KZbin is like now.

[@pojr]

I don't mind you linking it. I don't recall banning you, unless it's some automatic KZbin thing. Yeah it's interesting that robo was correctly put in at the beginning boss area, but not the last.

[@harrybest2041]

@@pojr It wasn't you at all! The comment deletions and ban I'm referring to were all probably automated, and certainly didn't occur due to comments on this channel. My comments still get hidden occasionally for unknown reasons. That 24-hour ban was for 'spam, deceptive practices and scams' and happened in November, if you're wondering. I think a Rickroll (KZbin link) triggered the first warning, but I have no idea what triggered the ban because I never got shown the offending comments with either of them.

[@ChikizisDeiracer]

This video got me to say “No Shit” a lot because of how bad the research is 😂

[@MasterEmerald94]

Fr

[@TheRealFruity]

and the only reason u said this is because of how bad ur own life is already.

[@MasterEmerald94]

@TheRealFreaa bro he isn't the only one who said that this video's research was bad

[@MasterEmerald94]

@@TheRealFruity did you not see the other comments that people posted on this video?

[@ChikizisDeiracer]

@@TheRealFruity Wow a sonic fan telling me I’m depressed, how original 😂👌

[@Carsonj13]

Wait, Robotnik used a metal hat to prevent Knuckles from seeing him? That's... ONE way to interpret the rogue Egg Robo I guess...

[@FrameRater]

4:57 I don't think this is accurate? I believe it's just an Eggrobo that Robotnik deployed to take care of Knuckles. In Sky Sanctuary zone at the end of Knuckles campaign, Mecha Sonic completely destroys that Eggrobo. Also doesn't it take place after Sonic's campaign? So Knuckles already knows.

[@GMdieselman]

It’s absolutely not true. When you beat the doomsday zone with only the regular Chaos Emeralds, there’s a cutscene showing the Egg Robo powering up from some rubble. Eggman wears a metal hat…💀💀

[@Dom_Maretti]

Ice Cap Zone's final music wasn't actually MJ. Instead, it was Brad Buxer, who collaborated with MJ for YEARS. He was originally part of a new wave band called "The Jetzons", and they had a song called "Hard Times"...which you can listen to if you search for it here on YT. You might notice that it is essentially the same song but without a club beat and of course, with lyrics.

[@MisterVercetti]

I remember during the reveal stream when drx suddenly did the Drop Dash. Chat freaking flipped its collective lid. To think a mechanic everyone thought to be a fairly new addition existed _twenty five years_ before Sonic Mania was absolutely mind-blowing.

[@gnoLeDwerdnA]

A glitchy move existed in a prototype that was lost for over 25 years that doesn’t make the drop dash in Mania not a new mechanic especially when there is absolutely zero evidence to even remotely suggest it’s inspired by it.

[@Linker2A03]

⁠@@gnoLeDwerdnA Both of your views can be supported. To support your side, Christian Whitehead responded when asked about the similarities to the Drop Dash with “uncanny coincidence 👽“. In support of @MisterVercetti , the base idea, or concept of the same manoeuvre still existed enough to be intentionally implemented in the game’s code (though not retained in Sonic 3’s final release) as a natural progression of/addition to Sonic’s abilities. While not at all inspired by the Sonic 3 prototype, the Drop Dash is from someone coincidentally thinking the same way about Sonic’s move set, that this manoeuvre is a natural progression and addition to Sonic gameplay. If the Drop Dash hadn’t appeared first in Sonic Mania, then I believe some developer would’ve eventually implemented the same idea anyway in a later Sonic game.

[@pizza-pi]

@@Linker2A03 A version of it did exist, it was Hyper Sonic's air dash.

[@andychamplin]

To correct you about one detail, the game wasn't split because of time constraint. It was McDonalds because they wanted to merchandise their toys on a specific time and SEGA's hands were forced just so they could fulfill their deal with McDonalds and released Sonic and Knuckles afterwards.

[@melvinpretlow7921]

That’s literally a time constraint lol

[@andychamplin]

@@melvinpretlow7921 That's entirely different from what we think of a time restraint. This wasn't SEGA trying to make a deadline. McDonalds got greedy so they demanded SEGA to release the game. There has been other theorize that the cartridge size was too small which was debunked pretty quickly.

[@melvinpretlow7921]

@@andychamplin hard disagree there. It was literally Sega trying to make a deadline. They signed a deal with McDonald’s months, maybe a year in advance to promote the game through happy meals. Sega fell behind in development and rather than pay the cancellation penalty, Sega cut the game in two to meet contractual obligations

[@andychamplin]

@@melvinpretlow7921 The fact that Sonic 3 started out as a 3D game first is where this all began and had they completed the SVP Chip by February of 1994 they would not have been forced to scrap the idea and start Sonic 3 as a 2D side scroller. They should have dropped the their promotion with McDonalds when they scrapped the game. SEGA was literally in way over their head with this development.

[@pojr]

You're definitely correct about the McDonald's things. I simplified it and just said time constraints.

[@isaacsteen4828]

Pro tip: Put the subscriber mention at the END of the video. It helps smooth out presentation and keep viewer retention

[@ecernosoft3096]

Nice video, and happy 20.7k! However, a few things. 1. The red spheres seen at 3:30 are a test of the 3D tech that this game was capable of (and the genesis in general.) 2. Time constraints as in a deal they had made with Mc donalds. That and the fact at the time 4mb would've left a more expensive sonic 3 (plus having 2 games is more profitable than one, say one $70 game vs 2 $60 ones.) was the real deciding factor. 3. Sonic 3 has 7 zones. And the level select oddities are because that was the ORIGONAL order. Sonic 3 complete also includes an option for playing with this order. The board in Ice cap zone was originally supposed to be the door you would kick off at the end of flying battery. 4. Michael jackson didn't leave, he was kicked out due to controversy. I think...? 5. I know this is a personal thing, but the PC rendition of Ice cap's music was just a crime to music compared to Ice cap on the genesis. 6. Physics, especially with slopes and tubes seen in sonic 3, is one of the biggest nightmares about coding. I still remember coding ICT4's physics, probably my least favorite part about coding ICT4.

[@emptyspotlight]

4. I heard that Michael Jackson left the project because he wasn't satisfied with the Genesis' sound.

[@RoonReplay]

I actually thought it was of his skin disease.

[@Glitch_X-pl1np]

i need to correct you on one point: Knuckles never fights Robotnik at all in his story. thats not Robotnik wearing a metal mask. thats one of his Egg-robo's trained to pilot his vehicles

[@pawcanada]

I've heard it suggested the music for the PC version may have been changed due to hardware rather than music copyright. Credit to the D-Pad for suggesting this, but PC music of the time would have been in the midi format, and the more "vocal" tracks MJ and his team composed wouldn't translate well to that format. Needing music, Sega brushed off the prototype music and used that instead. Additionally, the MJ tracks were used in later rereleases without issue, at least before MJ's passing.

[@pojr]

This is interesting. I never thought about this. And I always found it strange that the original S3&K music remained in compilations for so long. Why did Sega suddenly worry about using the original music?

[@pawcanada]

@@pojr As I said, full credit to The D-Pad who mentioned this in their retrospective of the Sonic 3 music scenario. It did come out in 2017, so it predates the prototype but it's still a good watch. As for why, my guess is after Jackson's death his estate maybe kicked up a fuss about music he had made and perhaps came after royalties from Sega. Jackson would collaborate with Sega after Sonic 3, so part of me thinks they were on good terms and maybe had a spoken agreement about the music but nothing in writing, so they continued to release the game until around 2011 without issue. With him gone, the estate became a possible problem for Sega. I've also heard Brad Buxer is actually the one who's caused a lot of legal headaches as he claims a lot of the music was his work and not MJ's. Famously, an unreleased 80s song from Brad's old band The Jetzons called "Hard Times" was reused for Ice Cap Zone. The instrementals of that song is near identical, if not fully reused. There was even a vinyl release of that song a few years ago that had Ice Cap artwork on the record sleeve, leading me to wonder if they sorted something out, but with the release of Origins I guess not. Blaze Hedgehog did two videos about "The Definitive Way to Play Sonic 3" around when the protype released, with the second one discussing the music which I also recommend.

[@The_Metal_Mechanic]

MJ's estate is also why his episode of The Simpsons isn't on Disney+

[@mistermike4023]

4:23 Given that concept art shows that Flying Battery was indeed supposed to be in-between Carnival Night and Ice Cap, It's not so much of a theory as it is a fact. Furthermore, the Special Stages for Sonic 3 actually reference the original zone order. Each Special Stage corresponds to the colors of each zone in sequence: The brown/orange of Angel Island, the teal/turquoise stone of Hydro City, the orange/cream blocks of Marble Garden, the red/white of Carnival Night, the orange/purple of Flying Battery, the blue/light blue of Ice Cap, and the yellow/purple of Launch Base. The fifth Special Stage is the only outlier in the sequence, since Flying Battery was moved to Sonic & Knuckles. In case you were wondering, the Sonic & Knuckles Special Stages don't really match up with the zones aside from the first one, which matches the green/light green of Mushroom Hill 4:50 That's not a disguise, that's Egg Robo, an enemy character who appears in Sky Sanctuary Zone. Knuckles' story is supposed to take place after the main Sonic 3 & Knuckles story, where Eggman has been defeated for now and all that's left to cause trouble is this one henchbot and Mecha Sonic Mk.II. Eggman's graphics for Flying Batter Zone's boss not being change was likely an oversight. The fight uses unique graphics for Eggman not seen in other fights, unique graphics that they simply never made for Egg Robo. The Sonic Origins version of Sonic 3 & Knuckles fixed this, among other graphical oddities or mistakes 5:19 This is technically true. Brad Buxer is actually the one who composed these tracks, alongside others such as the Knuckles encounter music and the Competition menu music. This can best be seen with the music for Ice Cap, which is very similar to the track Hard Times, an unreleased track made by The Jezons, Brad Buxer's band. While he did work with Michael Jackson a lot, Michael Jackson never composed any music for the game himself, and likely wasn't even involved

[@antiseize11]

And because of that association with MJ caused Sonic 3 & Knuckles to be skipped over of rereleases for many years until now

[@Epic_C]

20 years later? I think you mean 30. 😂 Boy I'm getting old.

[@TinWhisker]

Ah, just replied similar, 'more than 20' is technically correct! Release is 29 currently - I wonder what Sega will do for the 30th anniversary this year.

[@IgnatiusBlaze4]

4:55 actually that's not Robotnik, that's one of his Robo Robotniks, Knuckles' story is post game, technically a sequel to Sonic and Tails' story of 3&K. Unless Mecha Sonic just straight up kills Eggman by the end of the story lmao, because he spin dashes into it, and it explodes in a blaze of glory. Sonic 4, Adventure 1, 2, Heroes, Shadow, 06 so on and so forth etc... ssss sorry folks that isn't Eggman, he died back in 3&K Knuckles story mode lol. This whole time we've dealt with an imposter. Joking aside that makes his boss fight in Flying Battery even stranger, Robotnik shouldn't be around at all, he's off on his next scheme.

[@jdh9419]

Drop Dashing was originally going to be in Sonic 3, but it got scrapped and the concept wouldn't be realized until Sonic Mania

[@oflameo8927]

I am pretty sure Eggrobo wasn't Dr. Robotnik in disguise because Eggrobo was the second pilot in the Great Eggman Robo, and you can see it in its right eye.

[@SpicyPunkRockerOfficial]

I really don’t think knuckles story in S&K has robotnik wearing a mask.. as Mecha Sonic destroys him at the last boss scene and he gets destroyed into pieces. Knuckles ending stage bosses is actually a robot, not robotnick himself.

[@eljaminlatour6633]

Nice video, but here are some corrections about the Sonic 3 prototype. EggRobo, the robotic Eggman look-alike, is not Eggman himself. He's an EggRobo who survived and took Eggman's place to rule the world using the Master Emerald. If he did disguise himself so that no one could tell it was Eggman, why would be provoke Knuckles by throwing a bomb at him? Also, at the end of the game, Mecha Sonic Mk. II accidentally destroyed the EggRobo, there's no way it could survive. Also, the Windows game Sonic and Knuckles Collection was the only version (outside of Origins) to feature the original Sonic 3 soundtrack, but there were multiple re-releases of Sonic 3 that included the Michael Jackson soundtrack, like Sonic Jam for the Sega Saturn. By 2009, which is Michael Jackson's death, Sega stopped making copies of Sonic 3, probably to avoid legal issues because after the owner of a copyrighted work dies, then they'll be highly secured, so that no one can use it illegally, until it reaches the public domain which is 50 years after the owner's death. This was the case with Sonic CD. The original Japanese track "you can do anything" contains the lyrics, except Christian Whitehead's 2011 remaster because at the time, one of the singers for that track passed away, and because Sega didn't pay royalties for it at the time, then they don't get use the lyrics, so they had to rewrite the song, where those lyrics aren't included. Also, even if Flying Battery Zone was originally a Sonic 3 level, not replacing the Eggman sprite with an EggRobo sprite is still inexcusable because now that Flying Battery Zone became a Sonic and Knuckles level. In Sonic and Knuckles, there are patches that affect the game, like changing Knuckles's sprite to his correct color palette, changing the level slightly like replacing spikes with 1-UP's, etc. In Sonic and Knuckles, there are conditions that affect those patches, like if you play as Knuckles, Eggman will be replaced by EggRobo. However, due to an oversight, they forgot to redesign the boss of Flying Battery Zone so that EggRobo could replace Eggman. Even if Flying Battery Zone was originally a Sonic 3 level, Angel Island Zone is a Sonic 3 level and has a path designed for Knuckles, and so do the rest of the Sonic 3 levels. The reason Flying Battery Zone was playable in the Sonic 3 prototype was because it was going to connect Carnival Night Zone and Ice Cap Zone. Sonic would take Carnival Night's cannon which would launch them to Flying Battery Zone, then after Sonic defeats Eggman inside of the collapsing airship, then Sonic would tear a piece of the airship and use it as a snowboard for the Ice Cap Zone, similar to Sonic Adventure 2's City Escape. Also, although you explained and analyzed some key aspects of development. You could have added/explained/elaborated further, like the reason why Sonic 3 and Knuckles was split into two games was because of a few reasons which include time constraints, memory space, cartridge price, and they have to meet a deadline for the promotion of the game by McDonald's, which gave Sega Technical Institute(or STI for short) enough time to work on Sonic and Knuckles. The reason why Sonic 3 had different music was because Michael Jackson was a Sonic fan, and he wanted to help Sega develop the game by adding his music. There was a composer for Sonic 3, but he left development for not being paid enough. So, Michael Jackson and other composers had to step in. However, some time after development, Michael Jackson left and ended up uncredited for unknown reasons. According to STI, Michael Jackson left after the child abuse allegations he had, but the Michael Jackson team like Brad Buxer and Cirocco Jones were against it. Instead they claimed that Mikey didn't like how his tracks turned out when they were composed by the Sega Genesis, like it had a rough translation in terms of sound. Carnival Night Zone was based on Michael's "Jam". Ice Cap Zone was based on an unreleased song called "Hard Times" by the Jetzons where Brad Buxer came from before meeting Michael Jackson. And the Sonic 3 ending theme is based on Michael's "Stranger in Moscow". Another evidence that supported the theory was because of the 1990 Sega Genesis game Moonwalker where you play as Michael Jackson in his song Smooth Criminal.

[@Diwasho]

This is more like a beta than a prototype, it was dated as late as November 1993, only three months before the game was already on store shelves. The fact that it transformed so drastically from this unfinished mess into the completed product we know in only a couple months shows how arduous and extensive its crunch development was in the final stretch.

[@lucaf3255]

Michael Jackson himself worked only on the Music for the Competition Menu. The rest was done by his Songwriter Brad Buxer from back then. Btw., there were a total of 10 Titles from Michael Jackson and Brad Buxer, that had to be removed in the collection.

[@coffincolors_]

Let it be known, I was able to discover those beta elements where Sonic is on a surfboard, those blue artifacts, and the red spheres in the first act in the release game. I did this by using combining the 2 carts as a kid, and then using the debug mode in a weird way by skipping the intro section of Angel Island and moving my character all the way to the right, then quickly moving back before the cutscene ends while cycling through objects. By placing those objects continously (which I just did as a kid for whatever reason) eventually it can reveal that 3 of the objects are the 3 screenshots that we see around the 3 minute mark of your video. They are also animated, and Sonic on the surfboard is animated as well. i was only ever able to do this on the original console with the cartridge, but I do think it's possible with any rom. Just felt like sharing, if anyone wants to go digging for beta elements in the final product, which i never saw those sprites again until the 1993 prototype was released , basically just a secret for me and my brother for 15-20 years. Never understood what was happening as a kid, so cool to see those animations were actually unused cutscene data in a way

[@KairuHakubi]

It's so weird how these games started out just random as kids, then we grew up and noticed the environmental storytelling, the way it actually makes sense that you're moving through these areas in this order, and then.. we start wondering what the real 'canon' order is since we can see the clear revisions... anyway just to point this out as I always do, MJ didn't write the music. He didn't write music, he performed it. _The people who wrote his music_ wrote songs for this game, including Brad Buxer. And they never got paid, which is the reason those songs can't ever be used. Sega will not shell out the cash.

[@SamArt6607]

4:59 no, that’s egg robo

[@IronMan3582]

It could be entirely possible that the PC Music aka Prototype original music were placeholders being used thematically until Jackon's compositions were finished. One of the most persistent suggestions as to why Jackson left the project was that he did not like the way the music sounded on Genesis hardware and asked to be left uncredited, so all future releases went back to the placeholder music?

[@KomiChristopher]

This man is the CHAMPION of standing still. Even when he moves his head and arms his body doesn't dare rock or lean. I think he's propped up by a stick

[@BlueSatoshi]

Knuckles kinda exists as a playable character in this prototype, but appears more as a glitchy Tails. Sorta like an opposite version of Chaotix's Wechidna .

[@anonymone453]

hey i don't know if anyone's told you yet but eggman is actually an egg robo disguised as eggman throughout the entire sonic portion of the game, we see his true form during the knuckles playthrough

[@loadcartoons]

never cared for the original carnival night zone music, the beta version was surprisingly better when I heard it years later.

[@thedrunkmonkshow]

Whether those alternative songs were meant for the game all along during development or replacements after the game's retail release, Sega definitely made the right decision by adding those funky, upbeat Michael Jackson songs to the game because it gave it so much more of a contemporary feel, attitude and energy that fit perfectly with the craziness in each one of those zones they were in. Carnival Night sounds generic and goofy, Ice Cap Zones sounds like bonus stage music, and Launch Base Act 1 sounds so uninspired like it doesn't even fit the game at all or was meant for an RPG. My feelings on this go way, way back to the 90's when I first bought Sonic & Knuckles for Windows 95 and once I sensed that contrivance with the music I lost all interest to play the game and wanted a refund from Electronics Boutique but I lost the dang receipt so they wouldn't honor it and was stuck with it. Regardless I'm glad the prototype has been discovered for history and preservation's sake.

[@joe_kloos8512]

Hard to believe STI almost made this game bad from the start by making it an isometric platformer. They only chose to make it 2D because the hardware chip required for something like that wouldn't be ready till 1994 and they couldn't wait that long.

[@camdensmith2009]

5:27 Michael Jackson didn't actually work on the music for Icecap Zone. The Jetzons worked on it but when Michael left the project Sega decided to discontinue the collab. Further proof is in the unreleased Hard Times song by the Jetzons.

[@teaoftraffic]

i think you’re about 5 years late buddy

[@Larry]

Congrats on the 20k subs dude! As soon as you hit the 10k mark, the ball really starts rolling. You could be seeing 50k by Christmas even!

[@Pharozos]

Hello you. The content is good. I am glad for Pojr.

[@scottydu81]

Bless you, Larry

[@ThatKidBobo]

This video could have been made 4 years ago.

[@antiseize11]

Essentially, sooo late

[@EnygmaRecords]

I don't think the PC version using the alternate tracks had anything to do with copyrights, as Sega released Sonic Jam on the Saturn with the same music from the Genesis/Mega Drive retail release (and this was a complete re-coding of those games, so it's not like they were simply running the ROM). I believe different people handled the Windows version, and perhaps they had the prototype material as reference rather than the retail. Some pages indicate the developer was Media Kite, so it's very possible that Sega gave them a prototype (or prototype assets) at the time they began developing the Windows port, . Also, since the Windows version used MIDI, it's very possible they opted to use the prototype music because they couldn't do the voice samples in them. Regardless of who developed this game and whether or not they were aware of the retail release's soundtrack, they did decide to make this version's music ENTIRELY MIDI, so whether by accident or design, they would've had trouble using the samples (although it's debatable whether or not they could've just opted to make it some other instrument hit the same note/key).

[@anon_y_mousse]

Surely there's got to be a decompilation project for Sonic 3 and Knuckles. Seems to be one for all of these more complex N64 games, so why not a Genesis game.

[@garaschneider4808]

4:57 Dude, that's all wrong. Robotnik's gone from the story in Knuckles' campaign. Knuckles is fighting a remainder of Egg Robos, which he's attacked by at the start of the campaign, and who are piloting all the boss machines in each zone. The reason why Flying Battery's boss uses a Robotnik sprite is simply because Sonic Team were too lazy (or pressed for time) to draw a new Egg Robo sprite that would face upwards and pivot its glance like Robotnik proper did. So they just reused Robotnik.

[@Valientlink]

The music for Flying Battery also comes first in the Sonic 3 level select screen. I believe this is also true in Sonic 3C builds and Sonic 3 & Knuckles final, I'm not positive on the lock-on though. It was more than just time constraints though. Japan didn't get Sonic 3 until after 3C was abandoned. They needed a 4MB cartridge, Sega of Japan didn't produce these for the Megadrive, only the US did

[@FeralInferno]

Congrats on 20K. You reached it with super sonic speed!

[@pojr]

Thank you! Lol indeed, maybe not in this prototype since there are no chaos emeralds though lol.

[@ExcelHedge]

3:47 😂 Sonic running down the hill in Icecap is easily done in Debug.

[@offbrandmario9840]

I thought the eggrobo was just a eggrobo, not eggman in a metal hat

[@steelcrocodile5495]

11:10 Pac-Man Arrangement first level music!

[@quintillionlmao]

I wish that surfboard cutscene was still used, could be used for sonic alone.

[@VEGANVANIA]

It was basically a team of musicians who regularly worked with Michael Jackson (and this wasn't a secret). M.J.'s own involvement (largely or entirely over the telephone?) was more than zero, but Sega minimized it then, and they exaggerate it now.

[@Crow_Rising]

Something I remember hearing at some point was that apparently SEGA was impressed by the visuals in Donkey Kong Country, and wanted to somewhat replicate the 3D aesthetic in Sonic 3 leading to the character sprites we get in the final game. If true, it's possible that the prototype designs pre-date this creative decision which in turn means that Knuckles' sprites in particular might be closer to what he would have looked like in the Sonic 1 and 2 artstyles had he been originally designed for one of those games instead. The primary difference would probably be the shading like with Sonic's sprites, and in Sonic 1 he might have also been a pixel shorter like with Sonic as well. Also, it's not Eggman wearing a metal cap in Knuckles' playthrough. It's an Eggrobo, one of the badniks Eggman made which are normally only seen in Sky Sanctuary Zone. My guess as to why the boss sprite in Flying Battery wasn't replaced is because it uses a different Eggman sprite than all the other bosses, resulting in it being an oversight. There's probably a check to see which player character the player is using before a boss fight starts, and if Knuckles is detected the Eggrobo sprite is loaded instead as a replacement in addition to loading the more difficult boss behaviors, but since that specific boss uses a different sprite the trigger to replace the normal Eggman sprite doesn't work. The devs probably forgot that they used a separate Eggman sprite in Flying Battery, and so never coded in a proper replacement flag to use the Eggrobo boss sprite instead.

[@mjallen1308]

4:58 I don’t think that’s robotnik in disguise. When I was little I thought he wore a helmet to protect himself from knuckles’ pointy knuckles but it’s actually an egg robo. 5:40 also it turns out that the music on the PC collection was the ORIGINAL music made for those stages.

[@BCJ1985]

You're wrong about "Robotnik in disguise" in the Knuckles playthrough. That's Egg Robo, who rises from the wreckage after Sonic's playthrough. Knuckles by this point already knows Robotnik's intentions, so the disguise logic is totally wrong.

[@ExcelHedge]

3:25 😂 All of that is in the Final game but is only found in Debug mode. The game magazine was taking screenshots of Debug mode.

[@MegaManNeo]

I think the prototype music sounds better than we usually give it credit.

[@Sonictheoofhog4]

People are usually taking about the Origins remixes of the prototype songs, not the songs from the actual prototype.

[@pojr]

100% true. I prefer Carnival Night's prototype music over the final.

[@dittoplayz3183]

@@pojr you said that robotnik wears a metal hat to disguise himself from knuckles knowing it's him, but knuckles' story takes place after eggman has been defeated and has left angel island, beginning with a bomb dropping on his head, and seeing a rogue eggrobo, using eggman's machines. Knuckles' campaign's main threat is the eggrobo, but switches to mecha sonic for the final boss. it is NOT eggman in disguise.

[@gnoLeDwerdnA]

The vast majority of people who have heard it have said the same in comparison to the PC and Origins versions of these tracks so they did indeed get a tome of credit

[@Linker2A03]

⁠@@Sonictheoofhog4 After people doing a ton of research, it’s accepted that the replacement music themes in Sonic Origins’ Sonic 3 & Knuckles (with the obvious exception of the new Super theme by Jun Senoue) are more than likely from an earlier prototype than the 1103 prototype obtained by drx. The fact that the themes for Ice Cap Act 2, Competition Mode, the [formerly] unused song, and the Staff Roll theme that was repurposed all sound nearly indistinguishable from the 1103 prototype is evidence of this. But if you need more evidence, a person discovered some peculiar instructions in the code for Carnival Night Act 1’s theme in the 1103 prototype, that the header was set to intentionally play 3 semitones higher from the key of C Major that the PC and Origins versions normally played, likely a revision of the theme. There’s much more to support the music being from an earlier time throughout development, but my comment is a lot already😅.

[@Qwertyexists]

I thought the "disguise" was an egg robo in the first place

[@scpnoobers]

Egg Robo isn’t a disguise he’s a rogue robot that thinks he’s Dr.Eggman. Just clearing things up

[@Qwertyexists]

@@scpnoobers I know, the disguise thing just messed my brain up a bit.

[@Djbrayster]

interesting the magazine articles are from Sonic the Comic and the official Sega magazine from the uk! Regarding the MJ connection, it was also Brad Buxer who had worked on the "new" final tracks. He worked with MJ and the songs that were changed had MJ sounds in them. Also ice cap zone sounds like his band's (The Jetzons) song Hard Times.

[@suroguner]

you have the music replacement backwards

[@szszabolcs9582]

4:51 what? The "Disguise" is an Egg Robo from Sky Sancuary that Eggman sent to take the Master Emerald...Knuckles's story takes place AFTER SONIC'S STORY so Eggman and Knuckles are no longer allies

[@Charlie-Cat.]

Kind sir, In the near future, would you be interested on dedicating a video towards the Neo-Geo? It's my favorite units for both the Arcades and Home consoles and would be really interested on what you have to say about it. I did a channel search, but I didn't see anything regarding it.

[@davecool42]

If the internet had been widespread at the time, I bet they would have released the prototype as a beta, then pushed out updates just like they do today.

[@Mango05307]

The super emeralds would have been paid dlc

[@PH96Official]

Proud to say I was one of the first 20,000 honestly your video style has given me hope, that my channel can be relevant even now so thank you for being a reinspiration for me.

[@MaximusOverdrivusSupremusVT]

Hydro City? Don't you mean HYDROSITY?

[@MasterEmerald94]

There are too many people who say Hydro City. Like CAN PEOPLE READ???

[@mober7430]

Some of the Prototype Music is better than the Final Versions.

[@MalayanArif]

I wish we're in the timeline where Sonic 3 doesn't use any MJ's instruments. It'll look more different and sound more different.

[@seanewing204]

Congrats for 47K! Almost to 50!

[@Some_Cat_]

The prototype Hydrocity background is superior imho. More to look at and it looks a lot like the Lost World in Sonic Adventure.

[@Somerandomdude592]

8:46 "tf you lookin' at"

[@yusukeelric]

Knuckles in S3 never fights Eggman. Thats one of his robots, its not a robot mask. The eggman fight in FB is because its believed FB was already finished but stripped out at the last moment when the game had only sonic and tails in mind. and never was updated like the other maps

[@shadowopsairman1583]

The Sonic and Knuckles Collection was produced due to Sega severing ties because of Michael Jackson's suspected child molestation. Also the music used by that collection is actually the Beta Music, before Sega scrapped it for MJs tunes

[@Mabus_Incarnate]

Happy for you on 20k POJR! Congrats man.

[@pojr]

Thank you so much!

[@hughjanus6975]

1:06 will live in my nightmares. Why the creepy smile? Almost turns me away from watching the rest of the video. Proceeding with caution...

[@bes03c]

I am glad to see this channel growing.

[@ricky_pigeon]

Sonic 3 part of the video starts 3:00.

[@sonikku1011]

One of the best Sonic games? Nah bro it is the best Sonic game! I’ve always loved Sonic 3K the most, and I was so happy when we finally got a Sonic 3 prototype almost five years ago. There’s other prototypes for Sonic 3 and Knuckles that pre date Sonic and Knuckles but they’re not as interesting as this prototype. However, they’re still worth checking out if you haven’t checked them out yet.

[@V.is.for.Vae.Victus]

Uh, Robotnik doesn't wear a metal helmet for Knuckles. Knuckles' levels take place after Sonic's game is over. Robotnik isn't even there, it's an Egg Robo.

[@mikecraftbro]

That’s a egg robo not eggman

[@thomasboehnlein5205]

Without YOU, I wouldn't be here today. You 100% deserve your success. You make solid videos one after another.

[@pojr]

I really appreciate that, thank you so much!

[@kennethfishel5260]

What song was playing at 11.06 mark? Wasn't anything from the Genesis carnival nights zone. Was it PC? Was catch as hell!

[@simplericksfreedomwafersel7342]

I came for the intro. Stayed for the topic 😂

[@francyszz3]

I always felt kind of annoying the carnival zone music, the original one from the prototype sounds a lot better, sad it was scrapped

[@Gecko1993HogheadIncOfficial]

Wow-Pojr’s really on a Sonic spree lately! And congratulations on 20,000 subscribers!

[@pojr]

Thank you! And yeah I do like the older Sonic games

[@LazyPersian]

I didn't even know Sonic 3 had a PC version!

[@MegaManNeo]

Well, now you do. For a brief time they even sold the unaltered Sonic 3&K ROM for their MegaDrive emulator on Steam.

[@sometf2player752]

8:54 *eggmobile

[@littlepiggames]

you didn't talk about the werid sonic abilities like throwing rings

[@Friendlyaminals]

This video is actually terribly informed. Although I like the editing, this is just a shorter, factually incorrect, and overall worse version of Cybershell’s Sonic 3 Bonus Video.

[@germanelkapo1]

Can this prototype be combined with the full version of & Knuckles? Or was all of that implemented after completing the games?

[@panafa3617]

A lot of incorrect info in the start of the video, but it was great

[@ricmagus]

robotnik was not in "disguise" in knuckles route. it is cannon that knuckles story take place AFTER sonic story, and the boss in his route is one of eggrobots (the ame kind of that ones we see on sky sanctuary) that said, flying battery with knuckles do have an error that shows robotnick instead of the correct sprite (eggrobot) even in the final version, both in s&k alone, and sonic 3 & knuckles.

[@Kookie_13_]

4:54 this isn’t Eggman wearing a hat it’s an egg robo reusing the last of eggmans machines from sonic 3 Also why did you make the title misleading and make it sound like the present day

[@jonny-nava-367]

All his titles are very vague and clickbaity, it disgusts me with this shameless practice. I'm an ethics/principles over views guy btw.

[@Kookie_13_]

@@jonny-nava-367 ok

[@Sparkette]

8:35 Eggman's diabolical traps!

[@just247]

The Sonic 3 prototype did have some great music. Too bad Sonic Origins didn’t do it justice. Also, congratulations for hitting 20K subscribers! 🎉

[@KevinAguirre-b5v]

pojr, I’m a huge fan of your channel! Could you do a video on the Dreamcast?

[@Someone-o7v]

It's not robotnik. It's egg robo.

[@reshawshid]

So... Has anyone tried putting the ROM on a cartrige and plugging it into Somic & Knuckles? There might be more to find.

[@antiseize11]

There's nothing more to find then what's already have been discovered on the roms