Sima Zhao's Final Days | The Founding of Jin Let's Talk Lore E01

[@ahkilleuskosmos6836]

There’s a joking rhyme about the Jin dynasty, and its gist is basically the “Three Kingdoms used up heroism; Two Jins left with only cowards” (the original is 三国耗尽英雄气，两晋尽是鼠辈出）. My translation is a bit weird to read, I apologize, but I assure you the original Chinese is very eloquent.

[@eliu868]

Sima You: Was meant to be heir Sima Jiong: 😢

[@historian252]

Thus in the end Wei fell due to the Sima clan. But hey justice was done as the Jin Dynasty didn't last as long as the Cao clan Duke title.

[@SeriousTrivia]

It’s not Duke but actually Prince

[@historian252]

@SeriousTrivia Oh even better.

[@yukimurasanada5209]

Liu Shans son and many died in the failed rebellion, surprised Liu Shan did not die since Wei and Jin had a habit of killing people out of nowhere

[@SeriousTrivia]

Liu Xuan only died because they were with Jiang Wei working to first help Zhong Hui rebel and then backstab Zhong Hui.

[@colmoe]

6:25 Sima Yi pulled a Wuzhang Plains wheelcart and came back to life! Another commenter said this, Ill post it to support the question: In your opinion, when did the Sima clan decide usurpation instead of, say, continual regency?

[@SeriousTrivia]

that should have been Sima Zhao! It is my belief that once you make the move against Cao Shuang at Gaopingling, there is no going back. In the struggle for power, you don't have the freedom to move up and then move back. The coup was the Sima clan all in. Conditions afterwards did not allow for immediate usurpation and Sima Yi was also too old. Then you get the back to back to back rebellions in Huainan that basically allowed the Sima clan to slowly clean out all the opposition (because they beat every rebellion). After that was settled, if Cao Mao did not pull his stunt that costed his life, Sima Zhao probably could have usurped a long time ago. But after killing Cao Mao in public, Sima Zhao probably lost his chance to do it in his lifetime. And that is why right after Sima Zhao dies, his son Sima Yan basically immediately usurps.

[@mkxd9951]

​@@SeriousTrivia As a follow up question, In your opinion, what were the chances Cao Mao's Last Stand could have succeeded? Was the Sima Clan too entrenched by then or could Cao Mao truly make a comeback?

[@SeriousTrivia]

I mean he needed to just kill Sima Zhao. If he does that then it doesn’t matter how entrenched he was (and he was as he got away with killing an Emperor). People are just not going to be loyal to a dead person who can no longer give you the benefits of supporting him. And at that point Cao Mao would flexed his ability to kill the regent. But this was extremely unlikely to happen as Sima Zhao was not going to just stick his neck out and let Cao Mao swing at it.

[@muhammadalbab2678]

been waiting for jin's series, finally!

[@hailongnguyenha5421]

The Cao hold the Chenliu title for a long time but Chenliu itself it probably still absolutely devastated by all the war that followed in that period right?

[@SeriousTrivia]

They didn’t actually live in Chenliu. Cao Huan lived in Ye. These titles often do not require you to live there as he was still largely a hostage prince. So they had him live under surveillance in Ye and he just got a corresponding amount of household tax income from Chenliu as his stipend. Much is the same in later dynasties as the Cao clan had moved south but still held the same title with similar benefits. So basically they were nobles and was accepted as such by different dynasties even after Jin’s fall.

[@novandita9071]

@@SeriousTrivia so even after jin fell cao clan still important? or they just become minor nobles that dont have power?

[@SeriousTrivia]

@novandita9071 they were not minor nobles given that they had the prince title. Literally the highest you can have and still had some influence but they mostly stayed out of court matters are nobles are not officials

[@univeropa3363]

So the Cao clan lost the kingdom, but actually made out like a bandit and survived the fall of the Jin? Oh, that's hilarious. I guess sometimes it just doesn't pay to be top dog.

[@yanbaihuzxzxzx]

reason why Cao Cao never assumed the emperor title. He knew it led to the fall.

[@SeriousTrivia]

@yanbaihuzxzxzx that’s a weird logic to have though since every dynasty is going to fall eventually. That is no reason to not try to start a dynasty. It’s like saying well better not be born cause we will one day die…

[@univeropa3363]

@@SeriousTrivia By the way, did the Sima clan survive the fall of the Jin long term similarly to the Cao clan or did they fade into history at the end of their rule?

[@SeriousTrivia]

things get much more brutal and the transition of dynasties becomes very bloody. It is not to the degree of clan extermination but lots and lots of death for the Sima clan.

[@yanbaihuzxzxzx]

@SeriousTrivia I think he knew it led that way. Reason why he never took the title. Yuan shu and Dong didn't have any sense. One tried to be an emperor and the other was just waiting for his chance. Both was disasters. Even Sima Yi knew better not to take the title. Better to hold the emperor as a powerless puppet than to be the puppet.

[@Abdulraheem_Abubakir]

Sima you should be marked as the most unlucky guy in history of china

[@Killerbee4712]

Also, the link to the conquest of shuhan at 5:56 is actually a link to the First rebellion of Huainan XD

[@SeriousTrivia]

Let me fix that

[@nobblkpraetorian5623]

#JusticeforDengAi.

[@shinsenshogun900]

At least his surviving remnant of a clan survived... I guess

[@SeriousTrivia]

no Sima Zhao had all of Deng Ai's remaining sons in Luoyang executed as well

[@Sion879]

@@SeriousTrivia how did he justify that when Deng Ai was assassinated on the way? Did Wei Guan(the killer) advise Sima Zhao to kill the rest so they wouldn’t investigate what had happened?

[@SeriousTrivia]

First off, no one knew Deng Ai was assassinated except Wei Guan and Tian Xu. So they can easily report anything they want back to the imperial court (killed by rebellious Shu Han troops, killed by bandits, killed in the chaos in Chengdu). They definitely will not be reporting that Deng Ai was assassinated by them. Secondly, Deng Ai's name was not cleared, there was no evidence that it was just Zhong Hui's actions as there were plenty of other reports by other generals who cited that he was overstepping after the surrender. So with Deng Ai not showing up to defend himself, he and his family are still traitors in the eyes of the court and thus his sons all got executed. I mean at that point, if you were Sima Zhao, you probably want a clean slate or else you get his sons grudging against others and what not.

[@Sion879]

@@SeriousTrivia fair enough. Thank you for explaining.

[@orirotem2298]

Cao huan will return as emperor by my campaign 😎

[@DarthBaylen]

Cool video thanks m8,

[@herbangm.naibaho5405]

Karma at their best

[@crazyhotchicken]

Great job

[@Killerbee4712]

By your estimates, at what time did the Sima Clan actually turn from "considering usurption" to being 100% dead set on it?

[@SeriousTrivia]

after Gaopingling there was no going back

[@SuperStarTidus18]

Let’s goooooo

[@mkxd9951]

Wasn't it also the Prince of Chenliu who headed the petition to make the final Jin emperor abdicate?

[@SeriousTrivia]

the final three Jin Emperors were all murdered so I don't know where you get the abdication idea from.

[@mkxd9951]

​@@SeriousTrivia I got it from an article about Cao Qiansi, the Prince of Chenliu during Liu Yu's abdication, it had an intentionally dramatic title. He died a month after Liu Yu became emperor I think.

[@SeriousTrivia]

Oh I see where you are getting at. So here is the short version of the story of the end of Jin. For the most part, Eastern Jin was controlled by the gentry clans. The Sima imperial clan were quite weak for most of Eastern Jin, but there was a turning point around the ninth Emperor Sima Yao. But Sima Yao would become a victim of a jealous concubine who smothered him to death when he was just 35. This left his eldest son Sima Dezhong to become Emperor at just 16 years old. During the reign of Sima Dezhong, Liu Yu rose to prominence mainly through military achievements and once Liu Yu felt like he had control of the court, he had Sima Dezhong strangled to death in 419. In Sima Dezhong's place, Liu Yu installed Sima Dezhong's younger brother Sima Dewen who knew he was just going to be a puppet as he had no power or influence at court. When Liu Yu wanted to become Emperor, he went through the normal forced abdication process and had the entire court write a letter asking the Emperor to step down. Sima Dewan was very happy to step down as he was afraid that Liu Yu would have just killed him. This letter by the imperial court including over hundreds of signatures included the signature of Prince of Chenliu Cao Qiansi...so it is not that he tried to convince Sima Dewen to abdicate, he just sign a letter that everyone had to sign. The sad part of the story is that politics have degraded quite a bit by this period and past Emperors are not as safe as before so one year after the abdication, Liu Yu had Sima Dewen poisoned just to be sure (also he killed his newborn son and a bunch of other messed up stuff before that).

[@azsolus7845]

Yass

[@Ordoscc]

Title is Finding?

[@SeriousTrivia]

Fixed!

[@MrMage-ds1fk]

So, there was no battle at the palace between Wei loyalist and Jin/Sima Yan Forces during the usurpation/abdication? It was a bloodless transition of power?

[@artofthepossible7329]

That would suggest there was Wei loyalists by this point in time.

[@SeriousTrivia]

If there was a need to battle then there would be no abdication. The sima clan had control at every level and fought many rebellions against their rule by this point. They even killed an emperor who tried to march out with the few guards and eunuchs who were still loyal to him.

[@VegetaWien89]

Black myth wukong on your channel pls!

[@SeriousTrivia]

Check the recent community posts! It’s coming

[@VegetaWien89]

@@SeriousTrivia i can imagine noone better than you to play and walk us through this game! Pls include a lot of historical lore in your playthrough or consider to make a lore series for black myth since your 3k lore has been very successful and is the main reason why I have been following you since 200 subs!