Simple metrics for identifying if you're training in Zone 2 | Peter Attia and Iñigo San-Millán

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This clip is from episode 201 - Deep dive back into Zone 2 Training with Iñigo San-Millán, Ph.D. Iñigo San-Millán is an internationally renowned applied physiologist and a previous guest on The Drive.
In this clip, Iñigo and Peter discuss:
- Metrics for characterizing Zone 2 training
- How would Iñigo and Peter recommend you train in Zone 2?
- How to use heart rate as a guide for determining if you're in Zone 2.
- And more
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About:
The Peter Attia Drive is a deep-dive podcast focusing on maximizing longevity, and all that goes into that from physical to cognitive to emotional health. With over 70 million episodes downloaded, it features topics including exercise, nutritional biochemistry, cardiovascular disease, Alzheimer’s disease, cancer, mental health, and much more.
Peter Attia is the founder of Early Medical, a medical practice that applies the principles of Medicine 3.0 to patients with the goal of lengthening their lifespan and simultaneously improving their healthspan.
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[@timfuchs6483]

You have to biggest expert of this field and you don't let him just talk 😵. OMG, he is so good in explaining... Let him talk, it's gold

[@troyHD]

You stopped him from the most important answer. How do you get someone from 1.5 to 2.5 w/kg. He was about to tell you the answer snd you stopped him and never got back to how to train to get there. So how do I get there? What’s the training regimen?

[@ewu2030]

lose weight to begin with, do zone 2 twice a week for about 1.5 hours, then do session of tempo, SS, threshold and vo2max, each 4 weeks progressive load increase and 1 week break with mostly z2 in between. it's not only about w/kg in a ramp test if you can't recover after a harder effort to ride for 3-4 hours. If you only want to get your FTP higher, go and search on training peaks some ftp increase sessions that you can do indoor. simply put if you want more ftp you need to train that adaptation, but make sure you do those Z2 sessions. Even Inigo tells in some other discussions he is doing 1h of Z2 then do some harder intervals and then go and finish it with some Z2 to clear the lactate (the last z2 will be at lower power than the first to help clear all the lactate) and the easy way to do this, hire a coach as that will give you the best possible outcome for you since it will be personalized for your time and current fitness and so on

[@scottheitmanmarinesurvey3557]

Start racing

[@xGshikamaru]

Yeah, and all that to talk about that propanolol thing which noone relates to

[@superstrada6847]

Peter Attia! Stop interrupting your guests! They are experts in their field! They are not jack-of -all-trades! Please, please, it's not about you!

[@Dirtydreamer2023]

I know. I want to hear them without him influencing their answers.

[@fhowland]

This x10000. He loves the sound of his own voice

[@Halcyonhal]

You can provide the feedback (interrupt less) without assailing his character. If you don’t like the guy, don’t watch.

[@ZoeCuiM]

Exactly my thoughts. This isn't about

[@aleauvero]

Agreeeee!!! He was talking more than his invite

[@phantomopera5525]

We are blessed to have Iñigo in Bilbao. He'll bring our Lions to the highest levels of performance. The sky is the limit!

[@Running4Fitness]

The interviewer is most interested to show he knows something about the topic and interrupt the guess during important part of the answers. Arrogant

[@nicholas5396]

Finish your drink every time Peter interrupts his guest trying to answer the question Peter asked

[@pericofantasias]

‘It looks like old-school, but it works beautifully’. Exactly! And it’s even more true for non-competitive athletes.

[@55Reever]

Dr. Attia and Dr. San-Millan you just answered my question, thank you so much.

[@EL-ee4cz]

Thanks for your video.

[@fhowland]

Jesus Peter stop interrupting!! I wanted to hear his answer!

[@MyPaulclark]

Retire at 60 that is my goal and to ride a lot more. Love Z2 ridding Great discussion.

[@VictorElGreco]

An absolutely brilliant and most salient discussion. Thank you both. Having retired soon after my 60th birthday, I have at least gotten *one* thing right in my life. 😄

[@thekylierodriguez]

I have been listening to Attia for a year now. I’ve been making small and manageable shifts in my routine. I’ve been plus size with pcos for 10 years and now at 34. But now, changing my body has never been easier. I’m shook. I would even challenge what experts say a person’s muscle gain per week should be. I’m focusing on putting on muscle instead of losing weight. I watch the timing of my meals. And I try to keep my workout in the sweet spot which I’m guessing is zone 2.

[@andreaonyoutube9560]

Very interesting discussion around the end in terms of life/work loading on top of exercise load. Have definitely felt that. Would love to know more (for men and women, to the extent the science is different!).

[@nikitaw1982]

So what's the simple metric? Barely able to have a conversation?

[@jdtransformation]

Peter's talk about medication @ 11:00 brings up an important topic for millions of people: What if you're taking stimulant medication for ADHD which increases heart rate? Does this mean you actually have to work at a higher heart rate to achieve Zone 2 than without? I notice Z2 days with adderall or vyvance def feel like "less work" (almost effortless) vs days without. I've never heard anyone talk about this. If someone on Dr. Attia's team reads this - please add this question to be addressed!

[@isdeirinnme]

I’m also curious. Straterra raised my heart rate 15-20bpm normally, so zone 2 doesn’t feel like a lot even though I’m certainly out of shape

[@cobramcjingleballs959]

Attia, in his book and all his videos/pods, notes that rate of perceived exertion is a better gauge of Z2 than HR. So, if you can talk for a bit in full sentences but it’s uncomfortable, and (if on the phone) the other person can definitely tell you’re doing cardio, you’re likely in Z2 regardless of HR (Z2 won’t always correlate with HR based on other factors as well, e.g. lack of sleep, stress, etc)

[@eoinferguson1365]

At the beginning of the talk you mentioned putting aside people on high fat low carb diets, can you briefly explain what this diet changes in relation to Zone 2 training. I'm coming up on 4 years on a high fat low carb diet.

[@Ruudwardt]

Interesting points on hr rise factor. On my weight training sessions I sometimes can't get past 140 bpm, while the norm is 155-165 or so. And on these days I always feel lethargic. While running I can talk complete short sentences to about the threshold of 80..83 % max HR in sustained effort (20 min+) when my level is good. Also noted that this threshold appears to track with fitness level. Winter times I don't run much and the ZONE2 fitness suffers. I pick it up each spring and see the HR level go up where I am able to hold conversation.

[@lukewalker1051]

I will be 70 y.o. in April. I can carry on a conversation with HR at 160. I sometimes hit 180 HR out on the bike. I guestimate my maximum HR is around 190 but never go there. If riding with a top amateur in my town...say in a paceline at 27-28mph in a paceline, I start to go anaerobic with HR. at 185 or so and can't sustain it. My maximum sprint in my own air is about 30mph....a bit higher with lead out. I swim and bike almost every day. My resting heart rate is about 52 bpm when waking up in the morning coming of out sleep. I am probably top 5-10% for my age for speed within the 'average biking community'. There are certainly faster elite cyclists with higher VO2 around my age, but not a lot in my town.

[@SonnyDarvishzadeh]

Impressive numbers! I've been observing cyclists and generally find smaller, shorter, slimmer riders have higher HRMax

[@lukewalker1051]

@@SonnyDarvishzadeh Thanks for your reply. I am not a small rider. I am 6'1" and 185 lbs with long legs and arms. I have a youthful looking body, largely due to all the swimming I do, i.e. upper body development and light weight lifting. I grew up a competitive swimmer. I will say, I know two 'elite' riders around my age with much lower HR however with more endurance on the bike. One is 74 years old. He can ride 22mph in his own air mile after mile with me in his draft. I have more top end power than he does in a sprint but he has better endurance. We have ridden together in fast group rides for many years and he speculates he has outlier genetics which I believe to be the case. His father lived to be 106. He has a freakish heart and/or lungs and V02 max. He does train harder than me and rides more miles. Another is 65 years old and a very small man as you mentioned that is freakishly fast on the bike. To give you an idea, I also own a high power electric roadbike I built and use for zone 2 recovery riding that I sometimes ride with elite younger riders because they are my friends and I enjoy speed. This 65 year old racer can hold my wheel at 30 mph in my draft for as long as I care to go with motor assist. He is the fastest 65 y.o. in my town and there are a handful that were competitive racers and still very fast. Honestly, I am astounded by his speed on the bike. Small, aero, no fat, great muscle tone. The body of a 30 y.o. He rides constantly at 25 mph in his own air. I can't hold his wheel at full gas.

[@benholden5998]

I can hold a conversation at 160 hr but im not relaxed when i was doing that - i have to focus on my effort. Thats not zone 2. Its way over zone two

[@joe1071]

For real. It’s not a contest who can talk at the highest sustained heart rate lmao

[@BlackMan614]

Ugh... another geezer bragging about his fitness under the auspices of "heart rate training". Give a rest. No one cares.

[@VinnieDreher]

Love your t shirt ❤

[@Tripp111]

Thank you.

[@GeoffreyHiggs]

As a very glycolytic athlete, if you had asked me to find my zone 2 by relative perceived effort, i would have been way off. It wasn't until I did lactate testing that I found the right level. Now, after testing lactate, I can go on RPE but not initially.

[@karlpk3907]

At what point do you do the lactate meter? During the exercise? Or at the end/

[@KuntalJoisher]

This is an important point. There's a whole bunch of people who have been training very differently for many years, and may have aerobic deficiency syndrome. For them a lactate test, or if you don't have access to a lactate meter then other option would be to do a drift test and figure out what your zone 2 (or aerobic threshold is) and then you can start training to improve that.

[@christiankennedy9417]

I did train by feel for years, startet doing the drift test this year. Found out I was actually to slow a lot of the time. Retestet myself just a week ago, and my Zone 2 moved up like 10 beats. @@KuntalJoisher

[@celder012]

Thoughts on etCO2 for identifying when you exit zone 2?

[@dpulte]

This was instructive and helpful. From watching one of Dr. Attia's videos the other day I realized my Zone 2 was not vigorous enough. Can you do one on Zone 5? Thanks.

[@krishnayallapanthula]

did anyone use the app called Morpheus? Peter mentioned that app in one of his podcasts. Please let me know your view on the app Morpheus.

[@kennethrichard5836]

Why have a guest on the show?

[@WesT44553]

A question I find myself asking often when talking about zone 2 training is how that fits in with weight lifting. I know zone 2 training is optimal for building up base level endurance (such as running distance) and training hard often increases stress. How does this fit in with someone who is training a mix of weights and running. Often times lifting coaches talk about training to near failure (high RPE). Should some of the lifting be done at lower intensities? Does the high intensity lifting require more lower intensity running to stay balanced?

[@PlayGamesRideBikes]

I find a good mix of lifting heavy for majority of my workouts (rep ranges of 3-5 reps at RPE 8) for compound movements followed by majority of my riding at Z2 is the sweet spot. I don’t really get sore lifting at that level to the point of not being able to spend time at Z2 efforts. I’ll also have a group ride or harder trainer ride during the week that puts me at a decent amount of time near or above threshold.

[@uituituituituituit]

@@PlayGamesRideBikescycling is adding generally much less stress compared to running

[@AnyPerson-my8pe]

(off-topic, and I apologize, but Doc had you seen Lisa Moscone's new menopause brain book?)

[@Iceman-xe7jo]

I’m interested in seeing how people are keeping up this training in their late 60’s into their 70’s. I’m sure there are some that can but I’m sure their are many that will have a difficult time

[@jedi77palmer]

This is from an old video. Why repost the same info?

[@nonothing9685]

For the clicks and algorithm I assume.

[@softwaresignals]

At the 10:50 point (beta blocker Propranolol), to get more power per heartbeat, which is what he is saying, your heart has to pump more blood per heartbeat, which also increases the forces inside your heart. His analogy was like when you are "lugging" a car engine at a low RPM but high load, which is a good analogy, as your car is doing more work per revolution, increasing forces on your pistons. The uncomfortable feeling is from the high forces in your heart. Sounds a little damaging, dangerous even, to increase those forces during high intensity exercise with a drug. He shouldn't do that for longevity.

[@AG_only_comments]

My heart rate only reaches 60% even with maximum effort in cold weathers. On the other hand, in hot and dry weather, zone 2 effort raises my heart rate to 90% sometimes. So it seems like for me, heart rate is more dependent on temperature than effort. So I just pay attention to RPE only these days.

[@benholden5998]

At 90% of max hr you are not in zone 2. Even if rpe feels fine and the power is what you would be comfortable with in different conditions

[@Behine.DeChilis]

Definitely. I live in a hot humid climate, but when I exercise in cooler weather, a similar RPE will frequently result in an average heart rate 20 to 30 points lower than what I generally experience in 90°F humid weather. Such a drastic difference.

[@mangiari]

How long should one be able to sustain zone 2 training, as it is called steady state? Morpheus app is also spitting out something around 75% of my max heart rate, but I don't feel I can sustain that for hours. I actually have to fight to keep the heart rate that high. I even struggle getting it that high on a bike, if there is no hill to climb.

[@jeremyleake6868]

After around 2 years of a lot (around 10 hours per week) of aerobic training I think my top Z2 is just under 75% Max HR (which is something I’ve observed once in training and once in a race). I can maintain that for around 3 hours on a bike (indoor turbo) before muscle fatigue becomes noticeable and I start getting heart rate drift upwards. That is at 3.6w/kg. When I started I couldn’t go so long at that power without getting cumulative fatigue. I worked instead at 65-70% Max HR and gradually built volume on the bike to 2 hour sessions. Then I started increasing my power to ride at higher % Max HR and have got to 74% Max HR at 2-2.5 hours usually and feeling I can do the talk test plus repeat a number of days. My guess is that you are developing both localised fatigue resistance (legs) and aerobic pathways (including heart size/strength) and there may be a limiter in one of those areas. Gradually building volume I think may gradually eliminate your limiter (which could be local muscle fatigue resistance or heart or something else). I always fuel well when doing top Z2 - I’m burning a lot of energy doing 280W for 2 hours. That also helps faster recovery so you can repeat the next day and so on.

[@mangiari]

@@jeremyleake6868 thank's for the insides, very informative. Actually I never did cardio training just for that purpose, nor ever owned a road bike. I just do a lot of transport on bike and in addition did a lot of mountaineering with high cardio profile. Years ago I also travelled long distances by touring bike, with tons of baggage, visiting relatives all over the nation. Sometimes up to 200kms per day, with 30+ kg of stuff several days back to back. Currently just doing transport by bike and try to stay at upper z2 most of the time. Just for the reported health benefits and trying to optimize time utilization.

[@jeremyleake6868]

@@mangiari The only extra thing I’d add is that in my experience Inigo’s prescription for intensity (towards top Z2), length (ideally 1.5 hours or more) and frequency (ideally 4 times a week) of Z2 really works for improving the LT1 threshold. 1 hour per session is good, but 1.5 hours really improves it. I include in that the warm up (I ramp for 15 mins from very low power, my legs need that to ‘acclimatise’ and it feels so much better and so more motivating) and cool down (5-10 mins). Some of the ramp up will be Z2 if your steady state part is top Z2. I found it effective not to try and cheat and increase power too quickly as my LT1 increased. Ie don’t be tempted to ride at a power that makes your HR go up if you think you can take it, because it will either adversely affect your third or fourth session that week or you will get too much cumulative fatigue the following week (especially if you’ve done one or two high intensity workouts plus resistance training). The trick is to hold back the ego and desire to improve too fast, especially for highly motivated athletes.

[@mangiari]

@@cordeiropedro that does not make any sense to me. Elite athlets still do a lot of zone2 training and I doubt that they would have any adaptions, if they could maintain it for half a day. My understanding is that 140bpm is equal demanding for elite and intermediate, just the wattage/speed is way lower in the latter.

[@terrileeg03]

Loved seeing you on Fox News last night!! 😊❤

[@what-gq9qu]

So Peter said zone 2 is probably between 70 -80% of max heart rate. For me, as a 43 yr old male that is between 130 - 150. Does that sound about right?

[@mfiocca]

im 43… my “RPE” for zone 2 is right around 135/140

[@what-gq9qu]

@@mfiocca hey thanks. So i think im gonna get a heart rate monitor and just do my cardio sessions within 130-150, but ill probably aim to keep within 135-145. Can anyone suggest a good wearable hr monitor? Ive heard a Whoop is good?

[@mattfiocca2738]

@@what-gq9qu i'm not fully knowledgable on a lot of monitors, but i have the sensor bundle that came with my Garmin Edge 530... works well. I just started getting into low-intensity high volume training this year, with 1 or 2 intense workouts per week. I don't strictly go by heart rate, i mostly try for perceived exertion across the durations that I ride. So most days my target is to ride for 1 hour, and then I just ride where it "feels" like zone 2.. when looking at my heart monitor it just happens to fall in the 135 zone and climbs up to around 150/160 by the end of my workouts.

[@what-gq9qu]

@@mattfiocca2738 thanks. Good luck with the training

[@gustavomarin4810]

It seems like everybody has a different heart rate percentage, the fact that you have a conversation with a little bit of effort is an individual task to find the real number to work in your zone 2, still not a clear percentage from heart rate percentage, 80% seems to be too high.

[@christiankennedy9417]

It is not just that, the heart rate will (up to a point) be moving up with training.

[@skypickle29]

inderal has some other interesting effects-erectile dysfunction and memory loss

[@bonggarnica754]

HCLF is the 🔑 for me… Peter Attia’s Diets are KETO and IF….Does not work on Endurance Training

[@jangaroo2011]

Peter, let him talk!!! What a terrible interviewer OH MY GAWD...

[@jimking6484]

Peters Attia’s zone 2 is on the envelope of 3 watts/kg?!?!? Sweet fancy Moses! My FTP is 3 watts/kg, and I’m at lactate of 8 mmole. Dr Attia is in amazing shape or I’m in terrible shape. #KickAss100YrOld.

[@danielmccarthyy]

Thank God for subtitles or I would not catch a word.

[@benholden5998]

I was planning on trying to take beta blockers and doing zone 2 training but Noemi dont have to thank god😂

[@PierceRandall-hf7vf]

Sometimes I'm on my exercise bike and I accidentally dip into Zone 3 and I lose all the cardiovascular benefits of the session and un-burn all the calories I had burned previously. Who cares about being exact about this?

[@CandiceWhite-bo4nr]

? How does that work?

[@ohanaarias6301]

Please stop calling zone 2 metabolic energy stage as zone 2. Experts that use the zone 2 reference confuse it with heart rate zone which is not the same thing. Use the phrase Stage 2 because in affect that is more accurate. Just saying zone without qualifying your reference confuses people that hear zone 2. When talking about power zone 2 it is understood. So let's start using "Stages" for referencing energy system training since there is only 3. Stage 1 is mainly fat burning, stage 2 is fat/carb transitional mix, and stage 3 is mainly carbs. Now we are all using the same nomenclature and have a common understanding. Yay!

[@psmtz]

The way Peter talks in seems like he does not understand that talking affects the way you breathe, which affects your heart beat.

[@junu0507]

Zone 2 training seems controversial, at least according to Rhonda Patrick.

[@RyanKohler]

Peter can be so out of touch with people. His training volume is 10 hours per week and he calls that “low.” C’mon, man.

[@johannbraun5480]

We agree that he is bragging, right? Drops numbers. Something like 2h 5 days a week is low, compared to his heyday of course. Numbers are still true I think, dude is a real workhorse I’d guess. But he’s bragging.

[@lifebydesiign]

Bro what? That’s a little over an hour a day 😂💀 bro is blown away by the bare minimum

[@Guarkolo]

How many hours of video games do you play a week?

[@matthiasscheffler548]

No, the ability to talk is a very important point. San Millan can be a bit vague

[@charlestondarwin]

The guy spends an enormous amount of time asking a question that is not really a question but a bunch of his own opinions and when the expert starts to answer he interrupts him. That's the worst interview I've ever seen. Why not just make a KZbin video of him alone if he is so full of himself?

[@matlindell5022]

1,5 w/kg is under zone 1 🤔

[@mickgtir]

Here to say, fck Zone 2

[@paulfiedler9128]

Do everyone a favor and have Stanford's, Professor Christopher Gardner on your podcast to talk about daily protein requirements. Enough with "eat a cow and call me in the morning", Don Layman.

[@AG_only_comments]

Christopher Gardner's goals (and his followers' goals) are not solid athletism at 70, running after grandkids at age 80, hiking at age 90, etc. This channel is for people who are interested in those kind of things. So this channel is not the right place for Christopher Gardner. In fact, he mentions in one of his lectures that he knows a football player that eats obscene amounts of per day but that's not his topic to cover.

[@ClayOptimus]

then why dont u call him to your podcast? o wait, u don't have one even if u started one, who the fuk's gonna watch🥴 so let the professionals do their thing

[@joe1071]

Chill man. Gardners requirements don’t fit my personal goals, however I think it would be interesting to see someone that is on the higher end of protein intake and advice discuss protein requirement for people with different goals as I do think there is a bit of confusion with the idea of muscle mass, strength, and aging. Having strong, lean muscle mass vs bulking hypertrophy mass are two different things for aging. Building muscle vs building strength and how those relate to eachother in aging are also nuances that should be further discussed. If your muscle mass stays the same, but you double your strength, that’s probably better than building a lot of muscle with not as much strength, etc.