Single Beat Test (Ep.12): Cyprien Katsaris - Beethoven/Liszt 8th Symphony

In this episode we compare Cyprien Katsaris's version of Beethoven (Liszt) 8th symphony with Beethoven's Metronome Marks for this work.
Check out the entire series: bit.ly/SingleBe...
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Series Disclaimer:
It is easy to say or write that historical metronome marks point to super fast, oftentimes impossible tempi. It is much hard - impossible often - to really show it. In this series we take performances of well and lesser known musicians and simply compare their tempi with the authentic, original metronome marks. Not to criticize the tempo decisions those musicians made, simply to see if those claims hold any water.
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[@paulrudiger2552]

You should invite Mr. Katsaris to have a conversation about tempi in general.. He is a very lovely person.. I guess he will not deny... I like him very much as a pianist and a person

[@accordiontv1]

Those repeated thirds in the right hand in the allegro vivace of the 8th are some of Katsaris' own additions. As you can see, in the original Liszt transcription he alternates between the upper and lower notes

[@nicholasalexander3234]

The arguments are "SB is too fast for human physiology and piano mechanical actions of the classical period". This is difficult to refute. It's just that the whole classical music industry would require a complete about-turn. I can't see it happening quickly, but I am convinced WBM is the correct solution to the problems of tempi.

[@nicholasalexander3234]

No, the classical piano repetiore is still very challenging. At this tempo, it still requires over 10000 hours of practice, and later Beethoven sonatas probably requiring many times this (even at WBM tempi). And pure speed is not the same as musical quality, touch, or expressions of pathos. If you want to refute his thesis present rebuttals to his arguments. "I don't like slow" is not a convincing argument. The main problem of tempi on scores, given by the composers, is that they are generally far to fast for any human. The fact that most concert pianists perform at 30% to 80% of these composer tempi still remains. We do not consider changing a C into a D in the musically score. We do not permit changing the semi-quaver into a breve in the score. We do not permit removing bars we do not like from the score. In fact, we bend over backwards to be as faithful as is humanly possible to the score in everything save the tempi. Is this not a great act of hypocrisy? Are we to believe that the composers we revere as geniuses suffered willful myopia when setting the tempi for their music? Or is the conventional modern understanding of tempi flawed?

[@surgeeo1406]

A deluge of how-dare-you's on the way...

[@thomashughes4859]

HAHA! I know. It's like watching the GRETA-UN retort. 😂🤣

[@surgeeo1406]

@@thomashughes4859 🎶😁🎶

[@thomashughes4859]

@@surgeeo1406 HAHA!!!

[@rogerjamesmusic]

Chopin in DB- Butterfly etude, in SB becomes- Africanized killer bee etude. DB- Revolutionary etude, in SB becomes- Star Wars Light Saber etude, etc.

[@roberacevedo8232]

The Chopin etudes in DB really do sound wonderful. The one that really killed me what the thirds etude. Man, that last part is on a whole different universe. The butterfly etude also has a really lovely paste to it. Like skipping in a park.

[@rogerjamesmusic]

​@@roberacevedo8232 Also the'Harp' etude. So nice / relaxing to play in DB.

[@gabithemagyar]

The sample of Mr. Winters and Alberto playing at the 17:30 mark illustrates exactly how this could be played in single beat ! One need only down 15-20 double espressos prior to playing to get the requisite superspeed shaking of the hands ... easy !!!! :-))))

[@PbPomper]

I like this Wim. Can you also include an excerpt at the indicated tempi at WBMP at the end? Just to drive home the point.

[@ajcarr4264]

Hey Wim, I love what you are doing with applying the original tempi to pieces. And I was wondering if you could do a tempo reconstruction of Liszt's concert etude no 3 (Un Sospiro). Mainly because I'm not sure how to count it with a metronome, with some measures not fitting the time signature exactly

[@HGWaze]

Basically every video is: It should be slower. But I keep coming back.

[@TheSummoner]

Before discovering this channel and Wim’s strenuous defense of Gadient’s theory I’ve always been fond of faster interpretations of the music from the authors that the double beat theory is mainly concerned with. I’ve always though that all the fast tempi that the authors seemingly indicated were a sign of their modernity and that slowing them down was something that modern musicians did out of the presumption of knowing better than the authors themselves or, even worse, hiding their technical limitations (I’m looking at you Katsaris/Lisitsa/etc. LOL). I’m really thankful to this channel for providing me with an alternative point of view that not only makes a lot of sense but also awakened in me a taste for slower interpretations that I would have never thought to have in me had I not been exposed to the double beat theory. I went from almost hating “slower” interpreters like Arrau to actually finding most of their interpretations too fast. I went from appreciating how frenetic the finale from Beethoven’s eighth symphony in single beat theory used to sound to me to listening to the double beat interpretation and thinking to myself: “This actually makes A LOT more sense as a piece composed by Beethoven in Vienna during the years 1812-1813.” It’s been a really eye-opening experience and I really can’t wait for the upcoming rewriting of Gadient’s book in English to be able to buy a copy in a language I can actually read!

[@dickersonforever]

OMG it doesn't understand anything at that speeds, it's just a bunch of notes which are only to not to hear the silence

[@AbdulazizShabakouh]

Hello Mr. Winters I can't tell how much I'm addicted to your channel and this topic about "The historical tempo". Can you please make a video explaining for all of us how to convert the metronome marking from bpm to wbm?

[@arastoomii4305]

You must first get a calculator Then find the metronome number for the piece, like 60 bpm. Then take your number and find it's second root (X). Then calculate this equation with it: (X*X)+ 2 (3/2) - 3= your wbm number.

[@thomashughes4859]

@@arastoomii4305 that's funny. Thank you. Follow Jérémy's method, please.

[@arastoomii4305]

@@antartic5264 genius

[@kaybrown4010]

Demonstration is the key. Well done!

[@thomashughes4859]

:D

[@Renshen1957]

@@thomashughes4859 With all the demonstrations of the impossible, the single beat mafia (commenters) drone onward.

[@thomashughes4859]

@@Renshen1957 What else have they got? We have a classical education, friends, and we share and keep an open mind. If we like it, we say so, and if we don't, we're silent because it doens't matter. They are tortured souls, and they know it, which is why they'll copy and paste our comments all over the internet trying to demonstrate what kooks we are; however, people like us will have the prerequisite smarts to evaluate that they are the ones whose lifts don't reach the top floor. Sad really. I pity them, say a little prayer for them, and move on. We've had just about every argument levelled on this topic that there is. They are drowning, and they have pretty much gone down for the third time. I appreciate reading your material and your insights. _THAT_ is what makes this channel transcendent, and that GOLDEN! Always great to read your commentary. :D

[@Renshen1957]

@@thomashughes4859 Just so long as I do not have to perform mouth to mouth resuscitation after they go below the surface for the 3rd time and where rescued from the water. From my comments, I show times when a performance was in single beat and listed the variance from great piano masters of the past playing slower, some in between, and only the current generation of speed demons or rave followers on methamphetamine pianist. However, it's the exceptions to being impossible to perform which will eventually cause this musical house of cards pseudo-tradition to fall. My late father found the most obscure, and longest ways to drive from point A to point B (some of them on one lane roads in preference to freeways). The scenery wasn't a blur, I saw many areas of California in the same manner as when the first tribal indigenous people settled the areas, also groves of fruit trees orchards (many sadly gone). Then I understood his "Long Cuts" as I used to call them, the joy isn't in being across the finish line first, or arriving at the destination quickly, the beauty is in the traveling and observing and emotionally feeling the beauty around us. Whether this brought remembrances of being driven from his childhood, or would be called the "Zen of Automobile travels," it changed my perspective as to the importance of dashing through the landscape, or playing too quickly in my younger years. Many a war house keyboard piece reveals many facets and hidden secrets when we play at tempos as they were meant to be played for our benefit and not the impatience or exhilaration of an audience thrill seeding. J S Bach in his works differentiated between the stately and the Courante, and the lively Correnti, in the Partitias, and with different time signatures (3/2 versus 3/8) but some editors and too many performers think of the Courante as a very fast piece and bang away at blistering speeds. The same is true with the Allemande a slow piece or the Sarabande an even slower piece. Baroque composers of the 18th century for the most part imitated the broken style of the Lute (which isn't known to be played quickly in the Fr 17the c. term style luthé which later became better known as style brisé). Keep the faith, the open mind will prevail. As to the single beat mafia, I will paraphrase Wanda Landowska, "You play Bach in your tempi, and I will play him in his tempi (or at least as close as I can determine through musicological investigations to date)""

[@thomashughes4859]

@@Renshen1957 No resuscitation needed, or recommended, in fact. Yuck! Toss 'em a ring! I too learnt about the "off-Interstate" system, especially driving through TX. They have lots of really fun roads, two-lane, hills, curves, spectacular fields and forests ... WOW! I enjoyed especially the trip from Austin to Nacogdoches. Four hours of "too much to see to get drowsy and fall asleep". These dances haven't increased or decreased except where stated in the centuries-past literature; however, that isn't important to speed-crazed bunch of narcissists who want nothing more that "Rock Star" status, and they could never have played better than Eddie Ludwig Van Halen! I have access to truly unit-swing-(one Pi)-pendulum-inch tempi that clearly state that Allegro never exceeded 7 nps and were more 5 and even as mellow as 4 nps . Comparing les oranges aux oranges, we are certain Czerny and Beethoven both are WBMP. Let them play their way; we will play the composers' way! :D

[@achaley4186]

Wim, thank you. 😃❤️🙏🏼

[@paeffill9428]

I don't know about Liszt's piano transcription, but it should be noted that Beethoven's original tempi are perfectly achievable for an orchestra (which I think matters more), as Ricardo Chailly has demonstrated on his Decca cycle with the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra. There's also a letter by Liszt where he says that the 8th symphony takes 25 minutes (only some 2-3 minutes short of the strict single beat timing), so it seems to me unlikely that Liszt interpreted Beethoven's metronome marks in whole beat.

[@AuthenticSound]

perfectly achievable...😇

[@Renshen1957]

paefill, No orchestra plays single beat of Beethoven's Metronome marks. Most publishers since the mid 19th century omit these. You do not know if Liszt took the repeats or not you weren't there to listen. It is a shorter work but "One of the greatest symphonic masterpieces of Beethoven." I am going to give you a few quotes from 2017 on the subject. "Personally I found it always made sense to, and find recordings that skip a repeat ruins the structure, and drives me nuts especially when everything else would have made the recording my definitive. Eg. Walter's version of Beethoven's Symphony No. 4 first movement. I got obsessed and went on a buying binge for that Symphony, and I finally found one that had the repeats, his buddy Klemperer's, which is just a tad less eloquent. Another example, Mozart's Jupiter Symphony. " "When performing the second movement Funeral March of Beethoven's Eroica Symphony, the exposition is some three minutes long and it would be tedious to repeat this section (sic, my comment the first movement has the 3 minute introduction and repeat, not the second), although I've heard this repeat taken and it always causes me to squirm and groan!" which translated means this individual has attended performances that generatlly do not take the repeat (in the first movement). But let's not just pick on Beethoven. "I just got finished listening to a HIP performance of the Haydn Paris Symphonies and the conductor spoiled things for me because in several of the symphonies he took some secondary repeats that didn't need to be heard again. It became a tedious listening experience for me. " This confirms that many none Historical Informed Performance practices aren't generally followed as a rule. Another added "Yes. In No. 85, 10 minute first movement, 10 minute second movement. Unnecessary. " Another wrote..."Exposition repeats in sonata movements should always be observed. The rest are case by case." This is probably the most mainstream position. Yet another, back to Beethoven, "This does not bother me so much. If not repeated by conductors, my solution is to simply restart the CD at the beginning of the movement at the moment when the exposition ends It's not quite so easy in the case where a taken repeat is undesirable. I have heard some odd choices for omissions, though, like Celibidache skipping the repeat in Beethoven's 5th 1st movement; it is such a short exposition that omitting the repeat makes no sense to me." Another added about length, "Can you imagine that guy conducting Beethoven's Eroica Symphony. You can come to the hall at 37 years old and by the time he finishes the Funeral March with all repeats, it's for your funeral!!" Is that sufficient ammunition that a performance you heard or observed the time numbers on KZbin corresponds to a letter. How about going through the times of almost every recording from the 78 era throught the 33 1/3 record mono and then stereo era. There's isn't consensus among conductors, some take repeats some don't, and this practice, along with playing excerpts in the 19th Century of works complicates the matter more so. Or this comment, from Short attention span listener, "When I shop for an Eroica, I look at the timing of the whole performance, if I can't reference the individual movements. Anything over 50 minutes, I'm not interested, since it probably involves a three minute repeat of the beginning of the Funeral March." (He meant the first movement, there's no repeats in the 2nd movment). Finally, "In this modern age, no need to have repeats on a recording. That's true." The quotes come from a survey, www.talkclassical.com/48104-should-composers-marked-repeats.html and www.talkclassical.com/48104-should-composers-marked-repeats-2.html?s=66b668c1393fd372e497b2e8dc948e95 And my comment, if the composer put the repeats in the work in the first place you should damn well play them. Why cut and trim away a work. I understand that Glenn Gould didn't take repeats for his mono recording on 33 1/3 record, put that was a software (the record) recording length limitation. So, did Liszt take the repeats, or did he sight read straight through. And since the modern listening public is genetically different from their ancestors in the 19th century, and the conductors equally as likely to take liberties (omit repeats, etc) who can say as to the times mentioned in a letter, unless a second letter, critical review in a newspaper, diary entry can corroborate the first. Or as many apologists of metronome markings of Beethoven and Schumann, "Maybe they over wound their watch or it was broken."

[@paeffill9428]

​@@AuthenticSound kzbin.info/www/bejne/l2mriJ1mpMebns0

[@paeffill9428]

@@Renshen1957 "No orchestra plays single beat of Beethoven's Metronome marks." And what does this prove? The relevant question here is whether it's possible, and the answer is that yes it is, as Chailly's recording shows. I also made some calculations, and even assuming that Liszt didn't have repeats in mind, it would not help whole beat, because the repeats take around 5.5 minutes in whole beat, and going by Wim's and Alberto's recording (which takes 39 minutes) it still gives 33.5 minutes for the symphony in whole beat which is quite longer than Liszt's timing of 25 (and why would Liszt omit repeats from such a short symphony anyway?)

[@paeffill9428]

@@the_wrong_note The duration comes from Liszt's letter to Richard Pohl (November 7, 1868). Here's the quote: "Between Lohengrin and the Nibelungen, the Meistersinger seems to me to hold a place quite similar to that held by the 8th Symphony of Beethoven, between the Eroica and the Ninth; except for the difference, all to Wagner's advantage, that the 8th Symphony lasts twenty-five minutes and the Meistersinger more than four hours--according to your demandingly exact observations." (quoted from Franz Liszt to Richard Pohl by Edward N. Waters)

[@PbPomper]

Are there no historical records of performances and their duration? Some sort of programme perhaps. From this we would also be able to extrapolate an estimate for the historical tempo of said perfomrance.

[@johnb6723]

Not only is the nervous system unable to cope with the SBT, but the pianofortes themselves place a limit on speed, especially re repeated notes - no pianoforte can allow more than 7 repetitions of a given note per second, and most pianofortes cannot manage to accept even that.

[@engelbertschoormans]

I'm really wondering, could Czerny had adjusted the tempi a little bit for the pianoforte? You say that repeated notes are not very easy on the Viennese pianoforte - but they are easier to play on a string or wind instrument. If you comprising many keyboard transcriptions of works of the baroque to the romanticism, the music is played on the keyboards often far slower than, let's say, strings or wind instruments play. Look for example at the Cantatas of Bach and the organ adaptions he had made himself.

[@Renshen1957]

J S Bach transcribed the E major Partita's prelude for the Opening Sinfonia for the obbligato organ part, oboes, trumpets and strings, of the 1731 cantata Wir danken dir, Gott, wir danken dir, BWV 29, in D major. I can assure that an organist playing on the Ruckpositiv division of a tracker action organ can play as fast if not faster than a violinist. Check out the All of Bach recording of the above work on KZbin...

[@antoniavignera2339]

Complimenti per questa interessante spiegazione nella diversità fra Katsaries’s versione Liszt simphony.Bravissimi nella divertente ed emozionante esecuzione.

[@Maestro-FR]

1st movement : Tempo for the 1/4 is (69/2)*3 ==104 ! ! is that simple. Then the "con brio" is for the 1/8 (208) provided that they executed each well détaché or heavy spiccato with very little Iambus character. Guess what. Even Klemperer and Furtwängler are too fast so that articulations are not perceived. And also the hemioles are not powerful (this moment should sound very militaristic ! )

[@saracubarsi]

Do you have a video talking about some sort of transitioning moment from whole to single beat interpretation? Is there anyone clarifying at some point pre XXc that the mm indicates single beat? From when is SBMP standard??? Thank you, very interesting as usual!

[@ExAnimoPortugal]

To me, even the original Katsaris version sounds comically fast. Almost if it's being played by a pianola. This authentic sound research could really be going somewhere (and I'm not even a period instrument enthusiast)

[@josephmagil1149]

The original tempo of the finale of the 8th Symphony sped up to Beethoven's metronome marking plus 30% sounds like something written by Conlon Nancarrow, only playable by a player piano.

[@Renshen1957]

An excellent point.

[@awfulgoodmovies]

I play my guitar in Single Beat, Upstroke or downstroke makes a sound. Piano is Whole Beat instrument?? Only makes a sound on the downstroke?, (kinda like a metronome...).Maybe we could have 2 pianos, one just above the other and strike the upper keyboard with your finger knuckles?

[@Renshen1957]

Do you 1 2 3 4 or do you count one and two and three and four? How do you count the backbeat?

[@awfulgoodmovies]

@@Renshen1957I also wonder how drummers deal with a single beat tempo? What's the worlds fastest drummer?

[@awfulgoodmovies]

@@Renshen1957 1 and a 2 and a 3 and a 4 Lawrence Welk style.

[@Renshen1957]

@@awfulgoodmovies The Single Beat vs. Whole Beat concerns only classical music. World's fastest timpanist (kettle drum player)? That I couldn't say, the orchestra player must follow a conductor. The point of the metronome was to establish the composer's intended tempo's pace at the beginning for a work to be recorded of posterity. Tom Grosset. Big deal, never heard of him, who calls himself the Official World's Fastest Drummer broke Guinness World Record.Jul 15, 2013. I will presume he plays a drum kit. However, speed isn't everything. Ron Wilson (Ventures Drummer on Wipe Out), Mitch Mitchell, Jon Bonham, Ginger Baker are remembered for other reasons than speed. Gene Krupa, Buddy Rich, Lionel Hampton, Max Roach, et. al, were fast, but are remembered for their combinations than how many drum beats per second. Ringo Starr remembered for his (read the opinion, among his many talents being a drummer, Quincy Jones, thinks about his level of technique) association with the Beatles, however either session drummer Andy White (P. S. I Love You, Love Me Do except on one brief UK 45 first issue) or Jimmie Nicol both were more talented and capable drummers and could play rings around Ringo, Ringo's main claim is a left handed drummer playing a right hand drum kit and his ESP with his band mates (yes I like Ringo's opus, he was my favorite Beatle in the 1960's, but Pete Best was more influential in Liverpool, the Atomic Beat, and played more live appearances with the Beatle than Ringo. Best was a Rock and Roll Drummer, Ringo a ballroom drummer whose technique grew over time).

[@Renshen1957]

@@awfulgoodmovies So you are a Whole and a half beat counter.

[@joaoterceira9671]

So what about Chopin Op 21 which you have released on authentic sound a few months back. It wasn't played at tempo. Is there any wrong with whole beat approach? Should we consider another theory even slower ? How do you explain that it is impossible to play even in double beat , if we follow the strict indications from the score ?

[@surgeeo1406]

Remember, everyone is free to play how they want. Even free from that meaning anything. And before you waste your time with a rushed, frantic reply, thinking that we're gonna have a big hot debate together... don't waste your time, I have nothing to defend or accuse. Good weekend.

[@thomashughes4859]

To which score are you referring? See my reference below, please. Maestro Weller was playing the first movement (as an example) crotchet to the time period indicated by the Metronome when the bob is placed on the mark at 138. This can be converted to 17 and 1/4 measures per minute. In "C" time, I can't see "Majestic" being anywhere near an Allegro. Confer with IMSLP: Editor Series editors Publisher Info. Friedrich Chopin's Werke. Band XII (pp.203-70) Leipzig: Breitkopf und Härtel, n.d.[1879]. Plate C. XII. 5. Copyright Public Domain [tag/del/mrg]

[@joaoterceira9671]

@@thomashughes4859 The problem which was also exposed by Wim in the community tab , happens nearly at the end of the allegro vivace movement , with according to Wim , metered double trills. As a matter of fact, these trills in single beat should be played at 27.6 notes/sec which is impossible and Wim didn't accept the fact that these trills should be played slower than tempo of the movement, if only for musical reasons. The problem here is that 13.8 n/s is not even achieved by Weller in his rendition. So this is where the paradox lies, you cannot , on one hand not tolerate any deviation from indicated MM in single beat but accept it in double beat. The score considered is the F. Chopin's Werke edition on IMSLP, same as yours.

[@joaoterceira9671]

@thealamo56 I know and I am eager to find out what explication we are going to get.

[@surgeeo1406]

@@joaoterceira9671 Me too! I'm at the edge of my seat here 😀

[@pianistsdream]

65 years I have been playing the piano, 40+ as a professional. I have always wondered why people are always so impressed with speed and power, but find slower and calmer performances 'dull' and uninteresting. When I hear such great artists like Katsaris play in these tempi I wonder what they hear. One can barely discern, one note from another, one harmony from another, it simply makes no sense and it's certainly not musical. The vanity of virtuosity has turned music into a circus performance having little relationship to what is actually written on the paper. Incidentally my latest CD has received critical acclaim, particularly for it's transparency and stillness and you cannot achieve that at these speeds. Music needs, space and time, otherwise it's no longer music, just a showpiece. PS violinists are even worse, musical diarrhea in it's worse form.

[@Renshen1957]

The real test of a virtuoso lies in his playing slow. Horowitz playing the easiest of Scarlatti's Sonatas and the audience in dead silence, almost as though holding their breath to take in every note. I am more impressed by what emotionally moves me than the velocity of a player.

[@pianistsdream]

@@Renshen1957 try this one kzbin.info/www/bejne/kIGUhYZ-ppKpY9E

[@accordiontv1]

Just because people can't play at metronome markings today doesn't mean that they couldn't then

[@picksalot1]

I like these Single Beat Tests - They are instructive and hilarious, and clearly prove that it can't be what was meant by the Metronome indications for that time period. I hadn't heard of Fink before, but I think he "almost" got it right. Instead, I think he should have said "Use the "Double Beat method for average musicians. For professional musicians, an increase in speed by about 30% is customary." Wim - There are concert reviews complaining about musicians playing too fast. I'm curious if there are also concert reviews complaining about musicians playing too slow, assuming that there were performances using the "Double Beat" method for the Metronome indication?

[@roberacevedo8232]

But the DB speed is the closest to Beethoven. How could playing faster make it more profesional? Take a piece that is supposed to be played slower, then speed it up. Would that mean that you are a profesional? Remember that there are many pieces that really do go fast, in the 20th century or late 19th century. What not play those fast? And leave the ones that are slower in their original speed, or closest speed the composer.

[@picksalot1]

@@roberacevedo8232 My initial comment was only in regard to music from the "time period" under discussion. Professionals often do things faster than amateurs - It is one of the things that often sets them apart. But, that can be a bad thing, as Lizst pointed out.

[@Renshen1957]

@@gensoustudio6270 Are you old enough to remember what a "broken record" sounds like? Liszt arranged the piece for piano, it's not a note for note reduction into two staves for someone to follow the score during a concert, it's a piano work, and not even a show piece. Liszt produced a variety of works for piano from paraphrases, arrangements, etc, for arrangements imslp.org/wiki/Category:Liszt,_Franz/Arranger for a total of 78 (and not all of the works, there paraphrases, etc.,). And frankly, most pianists can play much faster than String Bass players, Contrabassoon players etc., in the lower octaves of scores.

[@louiscouperin3731]

Someone disliked it before the première?????

[@kaybrown4010]

As per usual!

[@johnb6723]

A bloody fool, no doubt.

[@ackamack101]

Such a wonderful demonstration on why whole beat of this music makes the only musical sense. Thank you for all you do. You have opened up a vast world to me of music at the piano that I thought I would never have been able to enjoy. Thank you!

[@JBorda]

I think Beethoven was joking. That was the whole concept of this Symphony right?

[@michaelnancyamsden7410]

Whoa,Nellie! At 84 bpm the music is a blur of notes. Ugh. The music is not. (Not musical.... at all. ) Do not give up or in. This is enough of a very clear demonstration. Those fast tempi are inpossible for mere mortals. If the virtuosity of Katsaris, unquestionably high, is not enough for these mm marks then WBPM is important. Thanks. The pieces become open to us.

[@awfulgoodmovies]

Chess is in the same boat. FASTER games! 3 minute..2 minute..30 seconds to play a game. Classical speed? Boring...faster = gooder.

[@robertklein8187]

At least in chess it is acknowledged that each generation of players is stronger than previous generations. It is the same for olympic sports. However some people seem to believe the opposite is the case for piano technique despite pianists playing the same repertoire for a century or more.

[@awfulgoodmovies]

And this also discourages beginners(piano alike)?

[@MrFluteharmonique]

🤣

[@derekgeorgeandrews]

If speeding up by 30% is customary then when you are posting WBMP performances; wouldn't you add 30% there to get an accurate historical performance? In other words, I was under the impression the Pathetique WBMP was performed at exactly the tempo written in WBMP. But if actual performances were 30% faster then a true historical reconstruction sounds like it would really be WBMP + 30%? Asking cause I've felt for a while watcing your videos it's got to be in between somewhere...

[@derekgeorgeandrews]

@@JérémyPresle I guess what I mean is maybe the composer metronome marks were not necessarily for actual public performances. WBMP strictly applied sounds too slow often. Yet, I am persuaded that SBMP is far too fast.

[@roberacevedo8232]

What Wim is doing is following what the composer wanted to play, not the authentic second hand interpretation of a piece.

[@thomashughes4859]

@@JérémyPresle when I compose, I expect to be followed in tempi, etc. Great post.

[@mtolympus-worstplayerever7924]

Is it just being ignored that Beethoven didn't write this for piano? The reason Czerny and Liszt put the marking was simply because it was Beethoven's. No one is arguing that it's reasonable to play this at whole note = 84. That's because it was never intended to be. It's a piano transcription of an orchestral piece.

[@MaurizioMGavioli]

You are correct. Does this imply that the precise Single Beat speed (so not the already amazing speed reached by the top performers, but the EXACT indicated speed read in SB) would be more reasonable and less "cartoonesque" if played by an orchestra?

[@clavessin12]

Good point and indeed the Leipzig Gewandhaus/Chailly recording that another poster mentioned is enlightening but your argument that Liszt simply used Beethoven's MM implies that he purposely published something that he knew was not playable and that opens another can of worms.

[@MaurizioMGavioli]

@@minirausch Oh I did, I did...

[@Renshen1957]

@@MaurizioMGavioli No as orchestras do not play in Single Beat...

[@Renshen1957]

@@gensoustudio6270 The Ninth Symphony by Beethoven "cartonesque"? The Moonlight Sonata, et al are trite because of animation. Obviously, your taste is only in your mouth with that provocative statement. What an asinine argument. The 9th Symphony is one of the great musical achievements of civilization, still popular 196 years after it's performance. Nothing is cartoon like in the work. Just because Hanna and Barbara when working for Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer used classical music (it's public domain) doesn't reduce this monument to the human spirit and the brotherhood of humanity to the level of a cartoon. Duels have been fought over less. The first movement of the 5th is the most recognized musical composition throughout the world for a damn good reason.

[@klausjens2427]

It is very disturbing to realize that many good and intelligent (single-beat) musicians are able to such a degree of self-betrayal. They are meticulous about phrasing marks, emphasis and pedal, but ignore the Metronome numbers. I cannot understand how their minds are working. I see only one chance for the whole-beat-cause: The music industry realizes that you need to produce all classical pieces available on CD once again, this time in authentic tempo. But many people I talk to don't seem to mind hearing classical music in much to fast tempi! Disturbing...

[@Renshen1957]

I wonder if the concept and the shift to the importance of "artistic interpretation" by a musician comes down to the incongruity of single beat metronome interpretation of early to mid-19th century Whole Beat indications.

[@Renshen1957]

Wim let me add the lists of requests Carl Czerny Op.400 School of Prelude And Fugue in Whole Beat Tempo. Not impossible in single beat, but most likely more lovely.

[@Renshen1957]

... in whole beat.

[@Stemma3]

Change your channel's name "The tempo channel"

[@ericmirza9497]

Deutsche Sprache Schwere Sprache

[@jacquestaulard3088]

I like single meth beat! Tweak!

[@Renshen1957]

LOL, Beatles on Preludin's