SkyEcho2 - Electronic Conspicuity - uAvionix -Interview

SKYECHO 2 - How does it work, and the world of Electronic Conspicuity (EC). It has certainly been a steep learning curve over the past few weeks, discovering the world EC and how they interact.
Mike Tetlow from uAvionix, the company behind the SkyEcho2 ADS-B system provided some really detailed understanding of the company, how their products come to fruition and the future of what they can provide the the 'lighter end' of the aviation market.
The CAA document for EC
publicapps.caa...
I hope this interview is of help to those that are investigating both EC and the SkyEcho2 device.

[@hwamblan]

Really interesting interview Giles , especially lowdown on ATC and military use of ADS-B. So Brize will be able to see me now - I mean on 29/3!

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

Hi Dave, give BZN ATC a shout next time you head out....after the 29th of course ;)

[@hwamblan]

@@GolfFoxtrot22 Wilco - in fact I’ll be close enough to wave!

[@gazzercoleman4304]

@@hwamblan I think they are still certifying the use of the ADS-B in Brize tower, but I believe it will be complete by the summer 👍

[@hwamblan]

@@gazzercoleman4304 Cheers, thanks for that Gazzer. Good to have some local knowledge!

[@clearprop]

You really do find the right people for these, Giles. Just awesome. 👍

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

Hi Dan. I hope you are keeping well, you'll have 2 videos in one day, and one is paramotoring related. :)

[@alwatt9367]

Great interview....Well done

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

Hi AL, I hope all is well and you can get back out flying soon. Which model of yours will be the first to be flown?

[@alwatt9367]

@@GolfFoxtrot22 Hi Giles..Thank you for asking I am fine, you look well too. If we ever get back to RC flying I guess it will be my 600 nitro and 550 TREX helicopters, also my Grand Tundra fixed wing... I am flying just now with MFS 2020 from Dyce to Iceland in a Citation C4 exec jet testing my navigation skill.. I also watch "Rory on air "another great You tube pilot and was able to land a Cessna in Eriskay outside his parents house....Wonder if your farm strip is in in the sim? Thanks for doing the videos as they are very much appreciated.

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

I haven't flown the new sim yet, but from the videos I've seen are awesome. The future is looking good we just need to not rush to the finish line too soon. Keep safe and I'm glad you are enjoying the videos.i just want to get back to flying videos, or even just flying with no cameras.

[@DavidReckitt]

Another step forward for my Spartan knowledge on these things. Thanks!

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

Its definitely an area that has given me a steep learning curve.

[@David_Wolfe]

You could say Mike had some experience under his belt!

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

Just a bit, I was a pleasure chatting to him. I could have made a while interview about his career.

[@planecrazyish]

Great interview, amazing product.

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

Hi, welcome back. I'm glad you enjoyed it. I wished I could have delved more into his military antics but ti wasn't the focus of the interview.

[@CrayonboxAviationAdventures]

Thanks Giles. I've been told to look at these.

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

Hello Stewart, I think Mike even mentions the Australian CAA have adopted the UK standard. It would be interesting to see what your EC policy or guidance is over there.

[@CrayonboxAviationAdventures]

@@GolfFoxtrot22 These units are available here and are a working solution. I heard about them about 3 weeks ago and considering one.

[@BrianTurboT]

Excellent stuff guys ... :-)

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

Glad you enjoyed it Brian.

[@ForFunFlyer]

Nice guy, right? I interviewed Mike at Aero 2019, about SkyEcho2. That video is on my channel. Great interview, Giles! 👍🏻

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

Ouhhh, I'll have to find it. He's a really nice guy, so many stories I couldn't put in.

[@clippedwing-bensmith1614]

Flying phantoms at 21! Great interview I learnt a lot!

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

Hi Ben, it's a different generation. Cold war era.

[@Chris-Fennimore]

Very interesting discussion. Thanks Giles and Mike. Very useful product. I was a little dismayed when Mike said the "fast Military" planes probably don't see ADS-B. My LZ is under a Military Training Route where flights of F-15s could fly over our house at treetop level. I have to call Flight Brief to see their schedule, if I want to fly near it.

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

Hi Chris, I hope all is well over there. I think there is a limit in the US of no ADS-B below 400ft. The fast movers have other 'special devices to se you ;). I hope to see you giving me abuse on the Paramotor nation on the 11th April ;)

[@Chris-Fennimore]

@@GolfFoxtrot22 I can't wait til Apr11th. A great group of people join in to listen to OurParamotorNation. Should be fun. See u there.

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

I'll be the quiet one in the corner 😉.

[@helenfox8579]

Great interview Giles, what an amazing chap, love Phantoms used to watch them at Coningsby in the 70's. FLARM was not mentioned, SE2 receives flarm and will display on SkyDemon with a £30 additional subscription, very useful for seeing gliders now the soaring season is getting going. Jus look on 'Spot the gliders' to see how many are flying on a good day, well over a hundred. SE2 might be GDL90 compliant but I do not believe SE2 will display traffic on a Garmin Aera 660 or 760 unlike SkyDemon where it works very well. We have an AERA 760 for Nav but also have SkyDemon for traffic and Nav. Appreciate this does not apply to microlights but does for light aviation. Garmin need to stop being so parochial!

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

Hello Helen, Phantoms, proper interceptors. I have a FLARM device already which is an all in one (NAVITER OUDIE 5) which is why I went down this route because of my paragliding gliding background. I actually bought it before I went down the powered route again. It's all a bit of a mess really and the CAA need to give some real direction to help us all be safe. I'm still on the fence atm with regards to Skydemon as I'd probably only use it for the alerts. I hope the video was helpful?

[@flyingkub]

Thanks Giles. So from what I understand ADSB is limited at the moment in the UK.

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

Limited?

[@gazzercoleman4304]

Only if you believe the ‘hype’ from the other manufacturers with vested interests in their own proprietary protocols. ADS-B is an international standard that is agreed and promulgated by ICAO 👍

[@flyingkub]

@@gazzercoleman4304 I have ADSB on my aircraft the problem as I see it is it helps for aircraft to aircraft in the UK but still a low number of aircraft use it or see it and the fact that the ATC's don't use it put the systems abilty back.

[@gazzercoleman4304]

@@flyingkub as far as I know, then Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Newcastle and Southampton airport use ADS-B. Barton airfield uses it and so do the FISOs at Wellesbourne and North Weald. The AGRO at Turweston uses it too. As Mike explains in the video, then the MOD’s Project MARSHALL also uses ADS-B and RAF Coningsby, Shawbury, Brize Norton and until recently Linton-on-Ouse had it. Project MARSHALL will also roll out eventually over the next 2-3 across all MOD airfields. So, yes, ADS-B is used and now SkyEcho 2 is able to transmit on SDA=1 then it will also be seen by these Air Traffic Units using ADS-B 👍

[@Exsluka]

@@gazzercoleman4304 no the controllers at Wellesbourne obey the rules an do NOT use ADSB for traffic management or control

[@AZC1949]

Thanks, Giles. Of course, he is talking about a very useful piece of kit that is not legal in the US. Our FAA makes life expensive for pilots!

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

Hi Zach, I've seen videos of US pilots fitting them. UAvionix is a US company. Just checking, are you sure that they are not legal seeing as they are made in the USA.

[@AZC1949]

@@GolfFoxtrot22 Definitely not legal in the US. All transponders have to be permanent installations by a certified and licensed aviation electronics technician. Furthermore, the aircraft has to be a registered experimental or certified aircraft. This eliminates all PPG and Part 103 aircraft. Stinks!

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

@@AZC1949 OK. I'll have to find the video of a pilot in the US with it stuck to his window. That's the only reason I asked.

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

Zach, wow I genuinely thought it was approved for the US Market as UAvionix is a US company. Apparently you are right, its not.

[@AZC1949]

@@GolfFoxtrot22 As you would say in the UK: Mental!

[@jonfb1683]

Good interview. I would be interested to hear what the future is for ADS-B as I keep hearing rumours that the 1090 frequency is close to saturation, and with the increase in drone traffic that could be reached. But maybe this is just a rumour. I've gone down the PAW route but there are features of Sky Echo I like. I just wished the CAA had been clearer. Instead they've offered rebates to any EC system. If in a few years they mandate one system, that's a lot of people going to be 'annoyed'! Until we have one system or full interoperability then there are going to be big EC gaps.

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

Hello Jon, that's the feeling I'm getting through doing these interviews and the underlying research. It feels a like a bit of a mess with no clear direction and as you said, there might be a few annoyed owners of systems then will be come redundant if policy dictates a specified path. Until then anything that allows us to be safe and have some overlapping EC is better than nothing. I'm just trying to get the information out there to help the flying community.

[@foxbatgpw1]

@@GolfFoxtrot22 I dont think there is much danger of ADS-B being mandated. It is an old technology. 1090MHz is an aviation frequency that uses an inefficient modulation technique called Pulse Position Modulation which cannot be changed. It will become saturated if all aircraft use it. That is why the FAA , ICAO and CAA have prohibited its use for drones. It seems the only argument for it is that it is an approved system, but that offers no real advantage over PAW or FLARM.

[@gazzercoleman4304]

The old technology is the old Mode A/C, but Mode S is more selective and so that helps significantly with the small potential of 1090 MHz congestion. The issue was worse in the USA as they were slow adopters of Mode S for their GA fleets and there are high numbers of Secondary RADARs and TCASI/TCASII constantly interrogating on 1030 Mhz that gets lots of unsolicited replies on Mode A/C from the legacy transponders. That is why the USA has a solution that uses 1090 Mhz and 978 MHz. The UK CAA are also trialling 978 but they propose to use it for drones/RPAS that are way more numerous than the ‘manned’ aircraft fleets. The beauty again of using 1090 and 978 is that these are internationally agreed aviation frequencies and in a format that has been standardised and agreed by ICAO for use across the world. This means that visitors to the UK will be able to integrate seamlessly rather than using FLARM or PAW that are proprietary standards (FLARM even uses different frequencies in different countries!) 👍

[@foxbatgpw1]

@@gazzercoleman4304 I thought 978 is a DME frequency. How is it going to be made available? If 1090 is such a good solution why hasn’t it been mandated by EASA and the CAA already?

[@gazzercoleman4304]

@@foxbatgpw1 it’s reserved for JTIDS Link 16 and OFCOM have granted licences to use it in the UK now. JTIDS has plenty of other frequencies for us in peacetime - for example Link 16 JTIDS is used in the USA and they also use 978 MHz for UAT ADS-B too.

[@AdamSweeneyUK]

Great interview Giles thank you! I didnt know the SE2 was a collab with the CAA. Mine is set up ready to fly.Reckon I'll be see on flightradar24? 😄

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

Hi Adam, I'm glad it was a useful interview. As far as I know, yes. EASYVFR works as well.

[@DanielJonesParamotor]

Mike talks about not being able to transmit ADS-B when in some other countries and you have to turn off your unit. Does this restriction apply to receiving ADS-B? And does the Sky Echo allow for just receiving ADS-B?

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

It has to be turned on to receive it. It's a device to device system.

[@chrsfrwll]

There’s a setting that turns off the transmitter so that if using outside the UK you can set the SkyEcho to receive only

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

@@chrsfrwll is that in the setup screen Chris?

[@chrsfrwll]

@@GolfFoxtrot22 Yes, on the configuration page. There’s a check box which when ticked enables the transmitter

[@DanielJonesParamotor]

@@chrsfrwll bloody brilliant, seems like a solid device 👍

[@12vibaba]

Are there any updates on this subject? i would really like to know how far europe is in this proces.

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

I have no updates. Have you tried to contact Skyecho / Uavioncs?

[@foxbatgpw1]

I believe the majority of EC equipped aircraft are transponder only. PAW can detect Mode S 3D, FLARM and other PAWs. Can SE2 see all other EC quipped aircraft or is it limited to ADS-B?

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

Form my research, SE2 can see other ADS-B equipped devices. It's a bit like FLARM can only see FLARM unless connected to the Open Glider Network. PAW can see everyone, but unless you are a PAW user, they cannot see it either. It's the complexity of EC at the moment.

[@foxbatgpw1]

@@GolfFoxtrot22 So SE2 has limited detect and avoid and avoid capability as it can not see the majority of EC quipped aircraft. PAW has the ability to use ATOMGRID and OGN so can detect all other EC aircraft and doesnt have to be switched off if you cross the channel as it in use in a number of EU countries.

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

I think it's a little bit more complicated than that. PAW can see other PAW and the majority. It's a bit like saying the same thing about FLARM. There are 3 different FLARM frequencies for Europe, Australia and America. SE2 can see all ADS-B devices. EC is a bit of a mess as there is no direction. FLARM works, PAW works and ADS-B works. It just seems PAW can see everyone, but not everyone can see PAW. I suppose it all depends on what the CAA/NATS go for in the future.

[@foxbatgpw1]

@@GolfFoxtrot22 I was always trained to keep a good lookout. EC is just a way of enhancing that so being able to detect all other EC is by far the most important requirement. I agree there are lots of different systems using different frequencies. Like FLARM they are designed for specific requirements. ADS-B will never provide the algorithms FLARM has to suggest avoiding action. The best solution is an interoperability standard. PAW is the closest to an interoperability standard there is currently. ADS-B is an old technology. 1090MHz is an aviation frequency that uses an inefficient modulation technique called Pulse Position Modulation which cannot be changed. It will become saturated if all aircraft use it as the bandwidth is limited. That is why the FAA , ICAO and CAA have prohibited its use for drones. Its unlikely to be adopted by EASA or the CAA unless it can be proved to be capable of coping with future traffic volumes.

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

@@foxbatgpw1 I currently have FLARM and will see where it goes. I just wanted to make an informative video. Your questions are probably best posted to the CAA EC committee. I'm jsut a Joe average flier.

[@DanielJonesParamotor]

I’m here and first 😉😂

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

Haha, but you have a few others to catch up on. :)

[@DanielJonesParamotor]

@@GolfFoxtrot22 I’ll make sure to comment “1346th” 😂

[@francisrich1731]

Giles, fyi the triggTT21 mode S transponder operates on a small rechargeable battery pack.

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

Hello Francis, long time, I think it was January last year. Yes, I'd love one, but they cost as much as my engine., that's a 5th of the cost of the aircraft. The other EC systems are significantly cheaper.

[@francisrich1731]

The TT21 is £1600 and the TN71 (ADSB module) is £500. Plus a battery and a case and you are looking at £2200 for an ADSB capable mode s portable system. Mike did not say how much the tiny drone device is but IIRC it's around $5000 ?

[@francisrich1731]

The £250 rebate scheme makes the skyechoe affordable but at its full retail I think many PPG would baulk at £500. How can we find out the timescale for ATCs to become ADSB ready. And similarly military craft and controllers? I think this knowledge is what will determine a pilot's decision whether to buy and what system to take a punt on perhaps?

[@thefooterer]

my take on this is we can all buy one and nobody will see us anyway.

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

People see you, you just need another spp to see it. It's jot a perfect solution but it's going to be the way of the future whether we like it or not, autonomous aircraft will see to that.

[@brianclarke4159]

Age 21 flying Phantoms !Wow

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

Old school RAF pilots. They all flew during the cold war.

[@matthewpesce765]

Authorized for use in the U.S.A?

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

Apparently not. I just did a quick Google.

[@Jeffopar]

It can receive in the US but it can not transmit ADSB. You must turn off the transmit function outside of the UK and Australia.

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

@@Jeffopar Hi Jeff, thank you for the information. If only there was a perfect system.

[@satwantdhanjal9204]

Dear Golf Foxtrot 22 I have just purchased and registered my SkyEcho2 device I am all set to transmit my location when ever we are allowed to fly again. But view other traffic there are few other apps some free ones have only US maps only and some not easy to set up and some are expensive subscription based but may be easy to use or over complicated for some people who only want to see and be seen Why don't uAvionix make their own app or get associated with other app maker for these paraglider/paramotor pilots who have taken the offer of CAA rebate and would like to have simple and easy and cost effective app without having to keep paying for some apps so much pevery year when we don't even get that much chance to be in the air I am getting old and hope any good dedicated app comes out soon

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

Hello Sat want, I think having the EFB side (skydemon etc) is going to be a necessary evil. Have you tried Easyvfr, that's free or ADS-B viewer (0.99p a month)

[@flexmaniac]

And we all thought the wall was real..... ;-)

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

Haha, hi Andy, the secret was revealed a few videos ago.

[@RichardCoombs1]

Et

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

ET?

[@RichardCoombs1]

Sorry, I pressed the keys by accident!

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

Haha, I do that all the time.

[@RichardCoombs1]

Really good interview Giles!

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

Hello Richard, I'm glad you enjoyed it.