Skyrim - Why the Stormcloaks are wrong

In this video I explain why I think Empire is the best choice in the Civil War.
Feel free to share your opinion!
Song: The Age of Aggression - Malukah
Theme: www.guidosegers...
I would like to end this description with a source from an ingame writer, Justianus Quintus, from "The Great War" (the book), not only because it is relevant for Skyrim as well:
"There can be no doubt that the current peace cannot last forever. The Thalmor take the long view, as is proved by the sequence of events leading up to the Great War. All those who value freedom over tyranny can only hope that before it is too late, Hammerfell and the Empire will be reconciled and stand united against the Thalmor threat. Otherwise, any hope to stem the tide of Thalmor rule over all of Tamriel is dimmed."

[@Mortebianca]

I agree! :D

[@Itspietertime]

Thanks.

[@emanuelstornello8009]

Hey morte!

[@kaidas732]

In elder scrolls 5 oblivion your fighting mehrunes Dagon. In elder scrolls V skyrim your dealing with alduin and his flying lizards. In elder scrolls VI you might be taking the final fight to the elves I hope

[@Itspietertime]

Yes that would be cool. I hope it will be set in either Hammerfell or Valenwood as they are both interesting provinces and would fit within a second Great War.

[@kaidas732]

Every elder scrolls game you start off a prisoner where do you think you will be at the start of the game. captured for talos worship ? Or framed again

[@Itspietertime]

+Mitchell Dixon Yes I do think you will be set again as prisoner, but I wouldn't know for what.

[@themandals7273]

Not the elves though, just the thalmor.

[@emanuelstornello8009]

For the empire, for the emperor and for the justice now and forever!!!

[@Itspietertime]

emanuel stornello AYE!

[@Twilight24682]

You imperials are thalmor arse licking dogs

[@theteutonicnord770]

There was no situation for the Dominion to "overwhelm" the Empire. THE EMPIRE had a chance to overwhelm the Dominion. THE EMPIRE won the great war against the Dominion. In the moment they are both very weak, but the Empire still had more men than the Dominion. If you dont belive me, read the book "The Great war". In this book is everything i have explained now. If Titus Mede hadnt signed the Whitegold concordat everything would be "ok". The Dominion was in no condition to beat the Empire. Even now, the Dominion cant start a war. The Empire on the onther hand cant start another war either, because Mede was dumb and signed the Whitegold. Without Hammerfell the Empire could lose against the Dominion, all because of Mede. (Oh, and about the loading screen, in what do you belive more ? A loading screen or a historical book ? I wont deny that the Empire is sronger than the Stormcloaks. That is a FACT. But it is VERY weak right now and i dont belive the Empire could save Tamriel if they needed too. I love the Empire, i protected it in Morrowind and Oblivion, but i think the Empire will fall sooner or later. Youre argument that the Empire ruled for over hundreds of years is no argument. The Septim Empire is totally different from the Empire we know. I agree with you, that the Stormcloaks wont forge an alliance with the Empire. Not now. But if the Dominion beats the Empire, I am sure that Ulfric will help. He knows that, when the Empire is destroyed tamriel is screwed. I dont like Ulfric very much, but he is definitely a better leader than Titus mede. Ulfric will attack Alinor that is right, but not right after the civil war. He probably couldnt even go to summerset because the Empire is in his way. Ulfric knows that, and he wont attack it until he is sure that he will win. For example : if you choosed the Stormcloaks you know Ulfric hesitated to attack Whiterun, because he didnt want to take any risk. That is how ulfric things. (sorry if my english is bad, i am german :) )

[@Itspietertime]

+Marc Bendels " If you dont belive me, read the book "The Great war". In this book is everything i have explained now. " I have read this book many times. It's funny though, because this book is clearly pro Empire. Read my description, I use a quote from this book. However, you are basing of this quote: "In the end, the main Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil was completely destroyed." Notice "Cyrodiil". It is mentioned that the Thalmor had control over most of Hammerfell. They could also have more armies left in Valenwood and Elsweyr, which is actually a dead giveaway since it would be stupid to send ALL your forces to an enemy land. And I do want to quote a few lines from the book, that justify the decision of Titus Mede II to sign the White Gold Concordat: "Although victorious, the Imperial armies were in no shape to continue the war.[]Not a single legion had more than half its soldiers fit for duty. Two legions had been effectively annihilated, not counting the loss of the Eighth during the retreat from the Imperial City the previous year." and "Titus II knew that there would be no better time to negotiate peace" "However, there is a great difference between agreeing to such terms under the mere threat of war, and agreeing to them at the end of a long and destructive war. No part of the Empire would have accepted these terms in 4E 171, dictated by the Thalmor at swords-point. Titus II would have faced civil war. By 4E 175, most of the Empire welcomed peace at almost any price." So even though the Thalmor were destroyed almost as well, Empire had a huge hit to overcome, and was war-weary. There is nothing dumb with war-weary. "The Empire on the onther hand cant start another war either, because Mede was dumb and signed the Whitegold. Without Hammerfell the Empire could lose against the Dominion, all because of Mede." Again, there was nothing dumb with signing the White Gold Concordat. It is actually much better than continue fighting. The Thalmor had most of Hammerfell, so they had forces there, and is a dead giveaway that they had more forces left in Alinor, Elsweyr and Valenwood. And let me say this: Tamriel divided will never win from the Thalmor. Do you think the Thalmor really give a shit about Talos? Why do you think they wanted only a part of Hammerfell? Why did they trick the Khajiits? And what about Black Marsh? It is all about dividing. Weakening Empire and so arguably the biggest opponent of theirs. To let rebel is highly beneficial for them, and the Stormcloaks are falling into their trap, and now Empire got to save what can be saved. And again, read the quote from the description. We need to unite. It is not going to work if you start a civil war and want an independed country. Empire is the only choice, if you like it or not. "Youre argument that the Empire ruled for over hundreds of years is no argument. The Septim Empire is totally different from the Empire we know. " Umm, the Mede have controlled the Empire for over 200 years now. You or that other guy said that Empire is an oppresor, and I refuted that. It is actually a valid argument, because this means that Empire can provide care for its citizens. Jarl Bagruuf mentions that trade flavoured. And what about the Stormcloaks? Skyrim will suffer a huge hit on the economy if the Stormcloaks win. Trade will be diminished. Imperial jobs (East Imperial Trade Company etc.) will close, and Whiterun, that existed because of its center between Skyrim and Cyrodiil as trade hub, will suffer immensely. "But if the Dominion beats the Empire, I am sure that Ulfric will help." Only then? I just lost all my hope if the Stormcloaks win. Do you think that Ulfric can stop the Thalmor alone? Seriously? The Stormcloaks will be slaughtered. And that other guy thought the Thalmor were a joke. Hahaha, the Thalmor will show why they got half of Tamriel and the strongest faction of Tamriel, Empire, beaten. If I were a Stormcloak, I would just kill myself. That would atleast quicken the process, and I would do it by myself. "Ulfric will attack Alinor that is right, but not right after the civil war." Ofcourse not, he will first recover from the war. But I think that he is underestimating the time needed to recover. Like said, huge economy hit. Second, half of population is pro Empire, they are not going to like it that Ulfric takes control. Third, many losses. That is going to take some time. And the second Great War could already been begun. Who knows? Attacking Alinor is absolutely laughable and pathetic. There is a reason why Alinor is shrouded in mystery. No one knows shit from Alinor. And how do they want to get food over such a vast distance? Rob food in Alinor? Risky, especially with so many men. Look, I can laugh all day at the Stormcloaks for really planning to do this (And Titus Mede II is "dumb" hahaha), but I am not going to allow this. Empire is already in a weak state, let alone start a civil war, but don't do this. Don't underestimate the Thalmor. This idea alone gives enough reasons to join the Empire. I will say this with pride: Glory to the Empire! FOR THE EMPIRE!

[@theteutonicnord770]

+Itspietertime 1. i know, the book is pro Empire. I dont hate the Empire, to be honest, i love it. I protectet it in Morrowind and Oblivion i dont want to destroy it. I only hate titus mede not the Empire. My first goal is to free skyrim from the Empire. Even though i like the Empire, i wont let it "opress" the nord. If the land is free i will definitely help the Empire, but i cant kill poeple that fight for there freedom, like ulfric. (Even though he is a dig) 2. The Empire could have also more armys in Skyrim and northern Hammerfell, the dominion didnt know if the Empire had more armys too. THEY took the risk, Mede didnt. 3. IF the stormcloaks would win, there were still a chance for the Empire. Ulfric,and i think even Hammerfell, wouldnt let the dominion win against the Empire. That would be the end for them too. So, to make it short, i hope Ulfric wins, after a few years the Dominion attacks the Empire, Hammerfell would help them and in the final battles Ulfric helps too. That is what i think will happen if the stormcloaks win. Dont forget, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. 4. I know that the thalmor want the civil war, but even if i choose the Empire, nothing would change in the war with the dominion now. If i fight and kill ulfric, there will be high losses too. The legion in Skyrim wont regenerate from the civil war. So I would have some more losses for the Empire, but Skyrim would be free. That skyrim itself will collapse because they cant trade anymore with the Empire, is a fact i know that. But to be honest, after the land is free, i dont care about Skyrim anymore. That are the consequences they would need to take. And as i said before, i think in the final battles, the remainings of the stormclaoks would help the Empire. That compensates the lost troops from the Empire in the civil war. 5. That Mede controlled the Empire over the last 201 years is still no argument. Before the great war, this Empire never had such a big war. And to rule an Empire that is (more or less) stable, is definitely something different than rule an Empire in the war. 6 I dont underestimate the Dominion or the Thalmor. Also i didnt underestimate the Oblivion crysis or Dagoth Ur. I dont underestimate any enemy of the Empire, because i dont want it to be destroyed. 7. I think before Ulfric would attack Alinor, the second great war is there. In the second great war (even though skyrim wouldnt even be part of it) Ulfric would overthink the attack on Alinor twice. And before he would attack it (IF he would) i belive the great war is almost over. That means the stormcloaks got weaker because Skyrim would collapse, as i said earlier. But, the Dominion got weaker too, because of the war. And then (i think) the Stormcloaks would help the Empire, but wont join it. I cant say if everything happens like i said, neither can you, but that is my opinion how the Empire will win. What happens after the second great war is now not relevant. I really want to say "FOR THE EMPIRE" too, but that is not that Empire that i loved and risked my life for. I will give the Empire a second chance, but to free an "oppressed land" and have the chance to win the second great war at the same time is something i cant ignore. I take the risk, that the Empire loses to free a land. (If i would be the leader of the Empire MANY things would be different right now. :( )

[@Itspietertime]

+Marc Bendels Okay so basically you're against the Empire because of Titus Mede II. However, you have to know that Titus Mede II became emperor in the year 4E 168. Two years before the Great War. So there wasn't much to show. The reason there was a Great War was not Empire's fault, it was because the Thalmor initiated it. Any person would not be responsible as emperor for the war. So why the blame on Titus Mede II? And again, I gave a few reasons why it was justified for Titus Mede II to accept the White Gold Concordat. So what's your hate exactly? Again, the Empire are just as much oppressors as the Stormcloaks are. Empire does NOT enforce Talos banning, they merely give free land acces to Thalmor Justiciars that DO (a demand from the White Gold Concordat). A lot of people misinterpretate the White Gold Concordat. After all, Talos was an emperor. Talos is just as loved by Imperials as by Nords. So, at logic, the Empire is no oppressor. Definitely not if you see that Empire, under Mede regime, has controlled Skyrim for more than hundreds of years. What a lot of people don't know, is that it were the Mede that stopped the destructive succesion crisis in the Emperor line. The Mede were the first emperors to stabilize the Empire again. Yet almost every Stormcloak fan I see says that the Mede are terrible rulers. They're not. It has just been a lot of bad luck for Titus Mede II. He got the Great War shortly after he ascended the throne, and had to make the unpopular decision, but wise one, to accept the demands. "The Empire could have also more armys in Skyrim and northern Hammerfell" Read this quote again from the book: "Although victorious, the Imperial armies were in no shape to continue the war.[]Not a single legion had more than half its soldiers fit for duty. Two legions had been effectively annihilated, not counting the loss of the Eighth during the retreat from the Imperial City the previous year."" It is implied that the Thalmor were better off at the end of the war. Imperial strategists are not dumb. They do military training, because the Imperial army is a proffesional army. I am sure that Titus Mede II has enough military advisers. These advisers get information from those Imperial strategists and officers. Saying "he was afraid and that's why he accepted" is a very subjective and stupid thing to say. Any person would choose the best options. The advisers, who looked at the information, told Titus Mede II that it was best to accept the demands. Again, the people of the Empire wanted peace, for any price. And again, it is much wiser to unite in the fight against the Thalmor. It was very stupid for the Stormcloaks to initiate a civil war. This does not contribute to the upcoming fight against the Thalmor at all. You can't deny the fact that it is a lot riskier for the upcoming second Great War if Skyrim is under control of the Stormcloaks than the Empire. Because you have to know what the Stormcloaks want. They want to die while battling. You shouldn't exclude the suicide option that is the Alinor invasion. They would be worthless then. The Stormcloaks are also quite worthless if they stay in Skyrim. No, an Imperial Skyrim will swore full allegiance to the Empire, and you will be assured that they will help in the fight. Another reason to join the Empire.

[@theteutonicnord770]

+Itspietertime Im not against the Empire because of Mede. First : I am "against" the Empire IN SKYRIM. second : Even though the Empire is not oppressing the poeple there, they feel oppressed and betrayed from the Empire. They think, that Talos isnt important to them anymore. And as i said before, i cant and wont kill poeple that are fighting for there freedom. That is also the reason why i helped the Forsworn to get out of the Cidhna mine. I know that the Empire didnt had enough troops at that time. But the Thalmor didnt. The Empire could have lied to them. I also know that they wantet peace. But half of Skyrim didnt. As an Emperor, Mede could have explained that to Ulfric and the Stormcloaks. I think Ulfric would understand this, if Mede had explained that to him. But now, half of Skyrim feels betrayed and oppressed of the Empire. It is a lot riskier, i know. But sometimes you need to take risks. That is not the best situation for this, i know that too, but i cant let poeple die, that are thinking they are doing the right thing. I understand that this is VERY risky, but my heart doesnt allow me to kill anyone of them. Ulfric would help the Empire against the Dominion too. Mede needs to see that. If he would take his troops away from Skyrim, nobody would lose troops + Skyrim is free. Sure, Ulfric wouldnt help the Empire all the time, but he wouldnt attack it either. The Stormcloaks know that the battle against the Dominion is important. They wouldnt want to die in that fight, because if they lose, there home and family will be destroyed.

[@Itspietertime]

Marc Bendels "And as i said before, i cant and wont kill poeple that are fighting for there freedom. " Who says that the Imperials aren't fighting for what they believe in? "Mede needs to see that. If he would take his troops away from Skyrim, nobody would lose troops + Skyrim is free. " So why can't it be the other way around? That Ulfric gives up? I told you that an Imperial Skyrim is better quaranteed to fight against the Thalmor.

[@briansanders8122]

You're completely ignoring the Dragonborn. At the very first impression, the Empire decided that even though the Dragonborn wasn't on the list, they decided to chop off his head anyway, just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time! The Stormcloaks, however, risk their butts to help the Dragonborn, a total stranger, get to safety during the dragon attack.

[@Itspietertime]

Well, Just like the Imperials (you can choose you know at the beginning). And the captain ordered it, Hadvar for example did not agree with that. One person does not represent the Empire, except the Emperor himself perhaps.

[@briansanders8122]

Itspietertime It doesn't matter. There's no reason anyone would immediately trust someone who, a few seconds ago, was about to kill them. Whatever race, the Dragonborn has every reason to join the Stormcloaks.

[@Itspietertime]

+Brian Sanders You are trusting Hadvar, not the Captain, not the Empire, Hadvar, at the beginning. Again, the Captain has superior orders. It was the Captain's will, it says nothing about the Empire.

[@briansanders8122]

Itspietertime Still, it was orders from a CAPTAIN, someone pretty highly ranked in the Legion, that ordered the Dragonborn be executed for no reason. And Tullius didn't exactly protest against it either.

[@Itspietertime]

Brian Sanders It wasn't like she had no reason. You could very well be a Stormcloak soldier, near Ulfric. If you were, then it would be logical to imprison you from an Imperial perspective.

[@ColonelBragg]

The Mede empire deserves to fall, It should never have accepted that treaty and called the Thalmors bluff.

[@grifidj1063]

"I do swear my blood and honor to the service of Ulfric Stormcloak Jarl of Windhelm and true High King of Skyrim. As Talos is my witness, may this oath bind me to death and beyond... ...even to my lord as to my fellow brothers and sisters in arms. All hail the Stormcloaks, the true sons and daughters of Skyrim!"

[@Itspietertime]

"Upon my honor I do swear undying loyalty to the Emperor, Titus Mede II, and unwavering obedience to the officers of his great Empire. May those above judge me, and those below take me, if I fail in my duty. Long live the Emperor! Long live the Empire!"

[@Itspietertime]

+General Decianus For Talos!

[@grifidj1063]

I also fight for Talos and Ulfric Stormcloak. But I fight against you imperial bastards

[@Itspietertime]

+Grifidj yo You just keep going don't you

[@grifidj1063]

Itspietertime Ur right, I don't quit

[@briansanders8122]

The Empire DITCHED Morrowind as soon as Red Mountain erupted.

[@Thedain14]

True but it's considered a De Jure Imperial Province by many lore buffs. Notice it is never stated outright the Morrowind seceded from the Empire

[@TheCoffeeCatDad]

Tbf, I did join the Empire. Though when escaping, I took the Stormcloak escape so I could kill that captain. 😅 Not going to blame the ENTIRE Imperial army over one captain who happens to be a total- ... you get what I mean. :p. I also like how they are ok with all races. I mean look at Winterhold on how they treat all elves. That alone got me second guessing the Stormcloaks real motive. In short, nice video on well documented facts about the civil war. There is also the fact that to many of the Nords, Ulfric was split labeled between Hero and Traitor for killing the king. So we got to question how the 'Duel of Honor' actually happened. Was it an honorable kill? Does he deserve to be king? If it happens, he would still be seen as a racist, power hungry usurper to outside continents despite the moot vote.

[@Renguar]

"United we stand" Maybe, but you know, if the Empire rejoins ALL Tamriel (or the best part of it)defeting the Thalmor.They will fall as the romans by tresons and divisions. We need to have the power divided. I think that having Skyrim independent will be the best. Also, maybe the Empire can transform into the Thalmor, because they will have all the power of Tamriel and with that they can do EVERYTHING. After that we will get rebellions everywere and possibly the destruccion of the Empire. I prefer to have many provinces, all allied and together destroy the Thalmor. ¡For the Stormcloks! (Sorry for my bad english, I am from argentina. I await your answer :)

[@Itspietertime]

No, I respect your voice, but united we stand stronger against the Thalmor. The Stormcloaks are stubborn. They say they will attack the Dominion after a Stormcloak victory, but that would be suicide. No one in Tamriel would benefit from that. The Stormcloaks won't be able to defeat the Thalmor, especially without their ambush tactics. And the Stormcloaks, plan on doing that on their own, they imply that. No, it is much smarter to stick with the Empire, and especially not draining resources from the Empire. Not only did Empire rule Skyrim for hundreds of years prosperesly, but also an Imperial Skyrim can offer better military support against the Thalmor. The Stormcloaks will act as a suicidal lone wolf if they win the Civil War. They are doing nothing more than draining resources from the Empire, and so benefitting the Thalmor.

[@Itspietertime]

No, I respect your voice, but united we stand stronger against the Thalmor. The Stormcloaks are stubborn. They say they will attack the Dominion after a Stormcloak victory, but that would be suicide. No one in Tamriel would benefit from that. The Stormcloaks won't be able to defeat the Thalmor, especially without their ambush tactics. And the Stormcloaks, plan on doing that on their own, they imply that. No, it is much smarter to stick with the Empire, and especially not draining resources from the Empire. Not only did Empire rule Skyrim for hundreds of years prosperesly, but also an Imperial Skyrim can offer better military support against the Thalmor. The Stormcloaks will act as a suicidal lone wolf if they win the Civil War. They are doing nothing more than draining resources from the Empire, and so benefitting the Thalmor.

[@kaidas732]

If you ask me the stormcloaks could rip a hole in the ad as long as they have the dragonborn with them

[@Itspietertime]

+Mitchell Dixon Yes you're partly true about that, but I highly doubt the Dragonborn will be a huge asset to the winning faction in the canon lore. Because that would kinda ruin the lore. Even Talos needed an army. And Empire simply offers better things. Why choose the Stormcloaks if they have less chance to win against the Dominion than the Empire. You want to save the most lives right?

[@kaidas732]

+Itspietertime +Itspietertime actually both sides give you the same currency. and the stormcloaks and the empire have the same strength it's the dragonborn that tilts the scale for one of the sides

[@thomassugg3422]

I believe the empire can win a border war now that they are more militarist remember the only reason the Thalmor were able to take the land in the 1st Great War was because the empire was not expecting a war and had no troops on the border. It's been 30 years much of the Imperial army had recovered. The legions on the border to the Thalmor are the best the empire can train they are war veterans and better trained soldiers whilst the legions in Skyrim are local Nords who are poorly trained but if you win the civil war for the empire they'd troops are battle hardened. Plus the empire has the numbers and different races fighting in its army Imperials,Bretons,Nords,Red gourds,Dark Elves Orcs and even some high and Wood Elves who hate the Thalmor. Also last points the Dragonborn with an army of Dragons fighting with the empire and what if the Imperials teach the Khajiit that the Thalmor lied to them about saving their holy moons plus the Thalmor killed off the Khajiits leader so if all of this Is told to the Khajiit then they could brake away from the Dominion and possibly fight with the empire or stay out the the war then its easy for the Empire because it's only got the Border with the Wood Elves. Also if Hammerfell fights along side the Imperials with is a high chance of happening the imperial and Redgouard fleet can blockade Summerset Isles this would stop Dominion Troops and Supplies making it easy for the Empire to take out ValenWood.

[@TruOnyxfire]

All of your reasonings seem to revolve around the fact that the Empire is simply stronger and, therefore, should be in charge. Skyrim chose their own High King and it wasn't the Emperor. While the Empire is certainly more advanced in civilization, I disagree that the Empire's better quality of weapons and armor make them so much stronger. The Stormcloaks fight for their lands and their people and their honor. These are the examples of freedom fighters having vastly inferior resources waging battles on massively superior foes and winning by pure attrition. Making the battle simply too costly to keep fighting because of the hit and run tactics, the evasiveness of the smaller enemies and the ever increasing resources needed by the Empire to try and deal with elusive forces they simply cannot keep track of or find. If we are looking at your average Joe in the game, someone who isn't privy to the entire political structure of the world and history you have displayed, most of the characters being played are playing their choices based on what they know in-game. I, for one, choose the Stormcloaks. The one time I decided to try and join a side, out of curiosity. Skyrim nords do not want to be ruled by the Empire and have proven they can, and will, rule themselves. When I first played Skyrim, I had no doubts that if I were to play the war story, I would choose Stormcloaks, simply because the Empire proves themselves to be murdering, immoral, hypocrites from the first moment the game starts. You start the vanilla game as an innocent traveler captured by the Empire and kidnapped for no reason. You are taken to Helgen, where even though you have done nothing wrong, the Empire has decided to murder you anyway for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Even when it is pointed out that you are not on their list? Their answer is "screw the list, behead him/her anyway. Such a fair and righteous Empire they are. When Alduin attacks, the Imperial soldier, Hadvar, urges you to "come with him if you want to live." Why do they care if I live or die now? They were just about to murder me in cold blood for absolutely no reason at all... now they want to save me so I can survive long enough to be murdered by their executioner instead? No, I see no evidence why anyone playing the vanilla game would possibly agree to join the Empire when the Empire did nothing but try and murder you from the very start. Just my take. P.S. For the final frame of your video.. the Empire is law only for those that are part of the Empire, and the Stormcloaks have made it clear they are not part of the Empire, no matter what the Empire says.

[@Itspietertime]

Watch my newer video, it is better. "Skyrim chose their own High King and it wasn't the Emperor." If Skyrim chose its own High King then why does half of Skyrim support the Empire and not Ulfric Stormcloak? Toryyg was rightfully by Nord laws High King, he was chosen by the Council, Ulfric wasn't. Ulfric killed Toryyg by using shouts, which is like using a gun in a fist fight. So much for having the moral high ground. "The Stormcloaks fight for their lands and their people and their honor." And apparently they are awfully bad at that. Any sane minded would see that a Second Great War is coming. Fighting the Empire is the OPPOSITE of defending Skyrim (and Tamriel). I can endlessly list the arguments to why a Second Great War is coming but you Stormcloaks dont seem to care about the Second Great War. It is the Empire that is the evil one according to you, not the Thalmor. If the Stormcloaks had seen that a Second Great War is coming, then they might have known that BACKSTABBING the Empire might not be the best idea. Empire is not the enemy of the Stormcloaks. The Thalmor is. The Empire isnt a threat to Skyrim and its traditions and culture, the Thalmor is. Ulfric needs to get that through his thick skull. If Talos is supposedly outlawed, then why do I see Heimskr screaming about Talos? Why do I see amulets and other preach material near every Talos statue, which in every city? You know why? Because the Empire loves Talos perhaps even more than the Nords: the Empire fought the bloodiest war ever recorded in Elder Scrolls history, just for Talos. Simply becuase the Imperials arent suicidial maniacs blinded by "honour" and taking the superior strategical choice does not mean that the Imperials are traitors to Talos. "Making the battle simply too costly to keep fighting because of the hit and run tactics, the evasiveness of the smaller enemies and the ever increasing resources needed by the Empire to try and deal with elusive forces they simply cannot keep track of or find. " May I point out that if it wasnt for Alduin the Stormcloak rebellion would already be quelled? Also, please elaborate about how the Empire needs "ever increasing resources". Last time I checked is that the Empire had MOST of its troops at the AD border (thus the Stormcloaks fighting only a small part of the Empire), and Ulfric admitting he cant risk an all out war with the Empire. Empire is not focused on the Stormcloaks, the Empire is focused on the AD, and rightfully so. "Skyrim nords do not want to be ruled by the Empire and have proven they can, and will, rule themselves. " Again, false. Half of Skyrim agrees with the Empire. Jarl Balgruuf, a neutral Jarl, said himself that Empire brought Skyrim prosperity. So basically you take the actions of 1 captain as representative of the Empire? I am not defending the actions by the Captain but you might have been a Stormcloak sympathisant, who knows. Also the Stormcloaks arent nice guys. Imperials or any other race are often attacked and else by Stormcloaks. Ulfric has proven to care absolutely nothing about Argonians and Dunmer. If Jalr Balgruuf can take care of all its citizens in war time, why cant Ulfric? Hadvar didnt want you get killed. It is quite obvious. Then he also introduces you to his uncle and offering his items to you. Not exactly unfriendly. You act like the Stormcloaks are the sole representatives of Skyrim. They aren't. They got quite some opponets, not just the Empire.

[@reyning3087]

Yo Geert, im hades from tropical paradise. And the end of the great war, before the signing of the white gold concordat, We know that despite the reconquest of the imperial city and cyrodill as a whole, the Nordic legions were still going strong, as the nords were always the better soldiers of the empire keyword:soldiers. Now, despite the hammerfell legion having been hit very hard, if the "invalids haden't been dismissed, you could just have sent one of the nordics legion with the remaining hammerfell regions to defend hammerfell and with the rest of the cyrodilic legion and the rest of the nordic legions had marched south(we do not have any information with the high rock legions, so im not gonna delve with them, but proly still going strong as well) they could easily have held the cyrodill and potentiality invade the north of elsweyr, as the dominion military was uterly broken with the death of lord narffin. Even at the start of the war, we know that the armies of the dominion won because they stroke fast , ambushing the southern legions as fast as possible, (There are some theories that the dominion already had soldiers inside the borders of the empire before the war even started) and that what broke the armies of cyrodill. Also, the white-gold concordat was really the shame it was because it was signed exactly when the empire finnaly got in a position of power , and they didn't use it, not demanding any terms just agreeing to whatever Alinor said. The fact that the Empire betrayed Hammerfell is even more grave when the redguards abandoned their tradition of independence especially the Crowns, plus giving them their naval strenght wich many time was sacrificed for the empire (Invasion of Alinor by example) and especialy when Hammerfell having always been loyal(like Skyrim) Even being the main driving province behind the fall of the wolf queen. Point 2: Everibody knows that the second great war is coming, the nords know this, that why they want an indepent skyrim wich focuses on itself and doesn't divert it's resources and it's men to protect cyrodill, while High Rock and Skyrim are abandoned, and with the naval force the aldmeri have(best navy in tamriel) it is here that the Thalmor are gonna hit next, it's obvious as fuck. Also a nordic stile military, who was able to conquer the ayled of high rock, the bretons of high rock, and the dunmer, and by itself destroy the dragons and the Falmer(probably the greastest elven civilization that Tamriel ever saw, or the dwemer), as such this military could potentially hold skyrim, and if the nordic navy proves sucesfull enought, even get dominance on the seas. Also the Stormcloacks aren't the skyrim military im talking about, im talking about a real army not rebels, wich are weaker than the empire, wich controls the greatest port and mines of skyrim. Also, letting the thalmor persecute their empire's own people on it's own territory is not shameful or a necessary evil, it's literraly being showing that the thalmor rule over ya, since Talos(The GOD-EMPEROR OF THE EMPIRE) and what he means to the nords, is basicaly shiting on the nords. Point 3: The empire is not corrupt, (stupid argument) it is simply to weak to act on it's own laws, and yes it's a shadow of it's former self. (Im talking about the Medes, not the Septims). The Crowns and the forebears united again't the dominion and probaly do not hate but also do not trust the Empire. Morrowing rebeled and is not a free province led by the 5 great houses, mainly House Redoran. Point 5: Depends if your united under a strong fist or a weak hand. Better gear and army structure , and indepent skyrim can potentially privide better gear for it's soldiers when they develop after independence, that the empire at it's current state can give to all it's legions and better infantry is assured. Better army structure can depend, but i have to agree with that one. Mages, Well True, but skyrim doesn't shun magic at all, it grealy respect Forst destruction magic and the restoration scholl, they just don't like the rest because most civilizations they fought off used magic. Yes, nords are a fundamental part of legions. Skyrim has flourished inside the SEPTIM EMPIRE, inside the MEDE EMPIRE it flourished at the start, stagnated for most, and suffered since the great war. You also forget that Skyrim's noble families also have trading companies wich activelly compete with the East Empire company,(quest in game about this) that could easily take over after E.E.T.C leave, and will bring money to skyrim and not take it to cyrodill. Not let's talk about oaths and honor. The Nords joined the SEPTIM EMPIRE, because the believed in serving the dragon emperors and only these, not a nibese family that took the ruby throne. The Nords swore to serve the Septims, not every imperial family who has nothing to do with skyrim, like the septims had. Second, the Empire in it's current state is sacrifing two provinces for the well being and safety of one, almost destroying skyrim in the process. If skyrim loses it's indepence, the rebelious states of high rock will leave the empire as quick as an orc chases death in combat.The forebears and the crowns united so they probably more pro-skyrim than pro-empire, as the crowns are now the dominant culture in hammerfell since they proved that the forebears fucked up.

[@Itspietertime]

Hey, thanks for coming. Arguing on Tropical Paradise is not ideal lol. BTW, I noticed these discussions could go on for weeks, but I actually have something for university which will not make me able to go through any of your replies for the upcoming 4 weeks (I will leave tomorrow, hence you will not see me on Tropical Paradise the coming 4 weeks for example). Ok so tbh this video kinda sucks, my newer video (/watch?v=v7M7QyTjRtY) is better and has better points. Please watch it. Anyway I will go over your points. Also tip, please use enter to space out the arguments, its kinda a mess now. Do notice that it has been a while since I have been into this discussion so I might not have everything ready, but anyway: Ok so basically your first point is arguing about how the Empire (which include Nordic and Hammerfell legions) could defeat the Thalmor without signing the WGC. Your points are merely speculation about various lore all across the games. Let us stay with the only real source about the Great War: by reading the "Great War" book: " The entire remaining Imperial force was fathered in Cyrodiil, exhausted and decimated by the Battle of the Red Ring. Not a single legion had more than half its soldiers fit for duty. Two legions had been effectively annihilated, not counting the loss of the Eighth during the retreat from the Imperial City the previous year. " May I also point out that "Nordic" legions aren't necessary pure Nords, neither for Hammerfell legions, Imperial legions are mixed in race (as you can see in the game Skyrim) and often consist of Imperial leadership with Nords, Hammerfells and Bretons as main line up. I also like to point out that the Thalmor are out there to get the whole of Tamriel. The WGC is NOTHING compared to what the Thalmor want in Tamriel (if you research it a little bit). Titus Mede II had the momentum after defeating the Thalmor at the Battle of the Red Ring, and with clever tricks (including letting Lady's Arranelya, or something, 's army doling in Hammerfell with the disbanding veterans) he could sweep the Thalmor in favour of signing a treaty. The treaty is necessary to prepare again. As you can see in my second and much better video, the Empire is preparing for war. General Tullius himself says that the MAJORITY of the Imperial force is at the border with Elsweyr and Valenwood, both Aldmeri controlled. Ondolemar, a Thalmor justiciar, says himself that "THis peace is the calm between storms, and the next one I think, will be far deadlier". General Tullius as well says that the Civil War in Skyrim is just a minor issue for the Emperor, the Emperor is most of his time busy with "issues" and preparetion withthe Aldmeri Dominion. Also before let me say that the Hammerfell argument is worthless. The Redguards only fought a tiny sliver of the Thalmor army that was in Hammerfell, which in itself was a smaller part of the larger Thalmor force that was in itself nearly entirely in Cyrodiil. The Empire defeated, by far, the largest part of the Thalmor army in the Great War, whatever you say about "Nord" and "Redguard" legions. This can be read in the "Great War" book: "In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil, gambling on a decisive victory to end the war once and for all. " "In the end, the main Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil was completely destroyed." These two lines EASILY prove that the Empire had done the most work in fighting off the Thalmor, and saying that Hammerfell defeated the Thalmor while the Empire did not is simply shortsighted dumbness. Also before you say "hey this proves if the Empire continued they could won so they are coward": Empire is not coward: Titus Mede II, even though his advisors said to go for peace at beforehand as the Thalmor army was clearly stronger, went to War with that Thalmor. Secondly, the Empire fought the largest war EVER, the Great War, just for Talos and Tamriel. The Stormcloaks saying the Empire is coward is hypocritical because most of the Stormcloaks are young men who never participated in the Great War. Also, only the "main" part of the Thalmor army was destroyed. There were an unknown number of armies left in the Isles of the Thalmor. The Empire had to use their momentum to strike a peace and leave the Thalmor in the mind that it was stalemate. It was the only way to get the treaty and prevent a Thalmor controlled Tamriel. You said: "Everibody knows that the second great war is coming, the nords know this, that why they want an indepent skyrim wich focuses on itself and doesn't divert it's resources and it's men to protect cyrodill," This is typical of Stormcloak fans. They think Skyrim actually matters in this big picture. The Thalmor don't give a damn about this province. They want to weaken the Empire. THe Empire is the only faction left able defeating the Thalmor, although slim. Thats why most troops of the Empire are at the border with the AD: thats where the war will start. Once Cyrodiil is defeated, the Thalmor only fight off divided nations who only think about themselves and thus are easily defeated. United we stand, divided we fall. If the Thalmor are figting multiple Big (Thalmor) vs Small (Enemy) battles, its easier for them than one large Big (Thalmor) vs Big (Enemy) battle. Also Cyrodiil is by far the most fertile, resourceful and most populated province of Tamriel. Once it is controlled, there is no way other factions can stand a chance against the Thalmor. Dude, the Thalmor proved themselfes they are not a joke in the Great War. We need to fight them together. Yet the Stormcloaks thought they were smart by STABBING THE EMPIRE AND TAMRIEL IN THE BACK. This alone proves why the Empire is the better choice. The EMpire is thinking long term, the Stormcloaks short. The Thalmor are laughing about the civil war, they say themselfes that they will interfer as least as possible in it. They want to see the Empire bleed. If the Stormcloaks nearly lost (Ulfric was captured in an ambush in the beginning of the game of Skyrim when the Dragonborn enters Skyrim) to a small part of the ENTIRE Imperial force (as said most of the Imperial troops are down south at the border with the AD), then why do you think the Stormcloaks have a chance A LONE against the Thalmor??? And we can't afford 30 years or so before Ulric has built up a "decent" army, the Second Great War will start at any moment. And even if he has such a decent army, it will nowhere rival that of the Empire or the Thalmor. There are only two factions who care for Tamriel: The Thalmor, and the Empire. Which one you rather have? There is not a single reason why the Thalmor would first invade Skyrim, the Sea of Ghosts is treacherous. It is a much better option to first invade Cyrodiil from the South, hence why Imperial officers have put most of their forces there. You missed point 4? Also point 5 is a weak point from me, about the gear and stuff. In the second video I dont have this point. Its merely speculation (everybody in this discussion likes to speculate about the lore and regard it as "arguments", I rather want to stay on the facts). Please watch my second video, its better. As said, from tomorrow on I will not be able to reply to your replies for about 4 weeks cuz university, but feel free to read through all the comments on my videos, there are loads of information from me when I truly was into this discussion (and believe me, nearly every argument can be find here).

[@reyning3087]

Good response mate, but kinda felling u trying to avoid some of my topics tho. But im gonna watch your other video and make a comment there then.

[@aysseralwan]

I know I am late but the forebears aren't pro Empire since the White Gold Concordat because they see it as much as a betrayal as the Crowns do

[@Itspietertime]

aysseralwan It isnt right yes. My newer video on this subject is much better!

[@jaydenfleischhauer2771]

thanks man u changed my mind long live the empire!

[@Itspietertime]

Nice for the Glory of the Empire!

[@hankhill8146]

For the emperor!

[@Itspietertime]

For the glory of the Empire!

[@hankhill8146]

+Itspietertime I ha e a steam group.. "The Imperial Debate Council" You seem like you know your lore. We mostly just share lore tips and information and convince Stormcloak supporters the error of their ways. (If they're not to stubborn to listen. If you want to join, add me on steam "TheImperialSyndicate" and I'll let you into the group. Usually there would be a small quiz on the lore, but you seem like you're a lore master, so you don't have to take it if you decide to join..

[@thealdmeribloodnative7531]

+TheImperialSyndicate we know your plans to overthrow your elven masters

[@Itspietertime]

+TheImperialSyndicate Cool I'll look into it!

[@Itspietertime]

+TheImperialSyndicate I just added you on Steam. My Steam name is fepi.

[@CommanderM117]

and you forgot skyrims close allies/enemy morrowind they had a pack with the nord and pack when the dwemer were around nearly helped them also we dunmer hate the altmer more then nord or wimprials and banning 1 god would lead to others being banned just saying to the thalmor pigs i can worship what ever gods i like get them trying to kill you if that gets them fighting you then maybe the stormcloaks are a better option freedom of religion whether deadra like me or aedra

[@grifidj1063]

Us Stormcloaks can take out the Aldmeri Dominion because back when us Nords were Atmorans, we came to Skyrim and made a life for us and we lived alongside the Elves in the area for generations. But after the massacre of an entire town carried out by the elves, we banded together and defeated the elves, and banish them underground. The Falmer of Skyrim today is an example that the Nords can indeed stand up to Elves.

[@Itspietertime]

I highly doubt if the Stormcloaks are able to attack, and defeat the Thalmor. Empire has currently 18 legions. Only one legion is in Skyrim. If the Stormcloaks have to use "hit-and-run" tactics (ambush tactics) on the larger Imperial forces (only one legion), how do they plan on attacking (on the attacking side you can't use ambush tactics) the Thalmor, who have a much bigger army than one legion. It is simply suicide.

[@grifidj1063]

+General Decianus What ever it takes to please Talos and Skyrim herself

[@grifidj1063]

+Itspietertime Okay okay, maybe we can't beat the Thalmor, but sure as hell can beat the Imperials.

[@Itspietertime]

+Grifidj yo If you could barily defeat ONE legion, with only hit-and-run tactics because the Imperial Legion is larger, IN the hypothetical scenario that you win the civil war, you won't be able to defeat the Empire. Empire has MANY more legions in the other provinces, namely Cyrodiil. The most used estimation for the total legions in the Empire is 18. And if they attack, they won't be able to defeat the Empire with ambush tactics. This is obvious. You can only ambush if your on the defensive side and know the terrain.

[@grifidj1063]

+General Decianus Okay, we can take them out because if we do win the civil war (Which we will) the victory will unify Skyrim, which will boost our economy, and get us more soldiers. And not only will we have extra troops, but being a strong warrior is part of the Nords' culture. After all of that, we will assist Hammerfell in their struggle with the Aldmeri Dominion, that alliance between Skyrim and Hammerfell will indeed be a match for the Aldmeri Dominion. When that is done, Cyrodiil and High Rock can either watch the war happen, or join the new Tamriel Alliance which can and will crush the Aldmeri Dominion from Tamriel ounce and for all. One more thing: The Stormcloaks can beat the Imperials because after the great war, the empire has been "Gathering its strength" but we all know that the empire is a cracked shell that hasn't improved since the Great War. Whaddya think now?

[@NederlandTotalWar]

Pro gloria imperi!

[@TheAscendedSaiyanEliteV1TM]

What will happen if The Empire losses against The Thalmor again in The Second Great War? do they have to do this over and over again until they finally win? I mean is like sending a lot of good men and women to their deaths...

[@Itspietertime]

Well the Second Great War will be far deadlier than the first one. This war will decide who will rule Tamriel. There will be no mercy.

[@TheAscendedSaiyanEliteV1TM]

Itspietertime I believe in The Empire to win and restore the peace of skyrim, but if they loss then we have to do something, if we fall we have the choice to stay down or to get up and continue to fight

[@Itspietertime]

+Mark Diaz I doubt that when Empire loses, Skyrim can still figjt back. Remember Skyrim supplies the Empire with men and equipment as well. Seeing this war will be a huge one, I reckon the Empire will ask for many men.

[@TheAscendedSaiyanEliteV1TM]

Itspietertime The Great War will be far than deadlier, The Dragonborn will help Rather than to let him sit there and watch the world bleed... sorry that I can't change "my heart of an assaisan" I don't have the guts to do it... give me an advise

[@Itspietertime]

+Mark Diaz The Dragonborn is just one person and is not immortal. Biology has shown to be small but en masse is much more easier to survive than big animals like mammals. Even if the Dragonborn is all powerfull etc., a few soldiers can keep him busy while the others pillage the streets. Sure, it is still handier to have him on our side, but remember, even Talos needed an army. As advice, if you want to fight the Elves (and eventually you'll have to), go to the nearest legion headquartes and join up in the legions. UT LEGIONES IN VICTORIA!

[@thoruszwolf4153]

Oh man, so much to correct, but that would give you a very long essay to read, so i'll try to touch a couple of points for you to ponder. First off, the events of the great war are important, as they show that after the thalmors initial surprise taking the legion off guard, the thalmor started to lose on all fronts, several retreats in Hammerfell and all out losses in Cyrodiil ... 3 legions of imperial soldiers were killed in the great war, among those losses was the 18th Legion, the wounded would recover in time. The Concordat was very unfair and a betrayal of the people, the redguards fought hard for the Empire, only to have their land handed over to the Enemy... try to imagine if the Redguards made a treaty with the Thalmor where they left Hammerfell but got to keep Cyrodiil, do you think the Emperor would be fine with that? And what of the Nords? they fought and bled for the Empire, only to be harshly punished on the eve of victory... I don't know if you are familiar with how people view their religions, most wouldn't be very accepting if you told them that it was now a crime... try telling a muslim that Islam is now illegal, but that he could be a Jew for now xD ... and no, the never made promise that Talos worship would one day be restored is not a justification, nor would it put anyone at ease. the Empire would not have been defeated by the thalmor. this much we can just about guarantee, for Hammerfell was part of the Empire, and after The Emperor denounced hammerfell as an imperial province and abandoned it to face the thalmor on its own, Hammerfell was still victorious over them, despite being severely weakened by their civil war that had been raging years before and a few years into the Aldmeri invasion the "invalids" that were discharged were done so by general Decianus against direct orders from the Emperor, he got away with it because he made up the excuse that they were too wounded to make the march to Cyrodiil. after the war and the Emperor kicked Hammerfell out of the Empire, they wouldn't have abandoned all their forces their to serve a new enemy of the Empire.... and the civil conflict was reconciled in hammerfell, any friends the Empire may have once had before the betrayal would not likely be very open to them anymore. Interesting your Schrodinger's cat reference. a good Emperor should hope for the best, but think of the worst... well, then do you believe Ulfric is therefore in your opinion, Justified? He is a leader, he hopes for the best outcome, that the Empire will resist the thalmor and stop toadying to them, but he thinks of the worst, that the Empire has no intention of restoring talos worship and will continue to persecute those who do, so he fights. ... anyway, it's starting to get long here, so i'll cut it off for now, I hope i've given you some perspectives to look at. If you like my response so far, let me know, we can go over some more -'J ~Talos Guide You

[@riddlemethis13]

Actually both sides are awful.

[@Itspietertime]

I don't see why the Empire did bad things. If they did then it was out of pure unluckiness.

[@Twilight24682]

Siding with the thalmor and outlawing the worship of a god is doing a bad thing

[@themandals7273]

@@Twilight24682 they had no choice

[@kaidas732]

I'm not really a big supporter of ulfrics claim of high king but I don't support elisif any more then ulfric

[@Itspietertime]

Well atleast Elisif didn't ordered her men to kill innocent children and elder people like Ulfric did. Ulfric ordered his men during the Markarth Incident to kill anyone, including innocent children and elder people, that didn't fought with him.

[@kaidas732]

+Itspietertime we'll the imperials did murder a man over a 50 gold bounty and torture people as we'll but yea what yea what you said might be true

[@Itspietertime]

+Mitchell Dixon Whom killed the Imperials with 50 bounty?

[@kaidas732]

+Itspietertime lokir of rorikstead

[@Itspietertime]

+Mitchell Dixon Well Empire killed an innocent man, that's true. But it was eventually the Captain's fault and not the Empire. And the Captain thought he was one of the Stormcloaks. They wouldn't have killed him if the Captain was 100% sure he was not a Stormcloak. But with Ulfric, he kills innocent children who did nothing.

[@benjordan798]

ARROGANCE! ARROGANCE! ARROGANCE! You Imperials are full of it.

[@miroslavslama6802]

... XD IT IS NICE! Skyrim players was too stupid WITCHER is better