Smart Fruit Tree Training #1: One Year Whips or Maidens, Disbudding and Notching

Smarter, more effective methods for training fruit trees for better, faster results. notching, disbudding, delayed open center and modified central leader forms.
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Common recommendations for training fruit trees are fairly crude, primitive, slow and only moderately effectual for very specific tree forms. They are especially unsuited to the very useful delayed open center and modified central leader fruit tree forms. This is a set of tools that can be used to insure you get the resulting tree form that you want and get it more quickly. These tools include, choosing exactly which buds grow into branches, disbudding and notching. More tools will be added as the tree grows on over the next few years. By year 4 I would like to be pretty much in maintenance mode and have the main framework of the tree established.

[@SkillCult]

Hi folks. I have the next vid on doing the same with 2 or 3 year old trees already shot and just need to finish editing and all that stuff, so stay tuned. I also have notes and plans and thoughts for lectures, videos, essays and experiments on training trees. I'll see what I can pull off, but I just wanted to get this out while there was still time this spring. These tree forms I mention I really like for small orchardists and homeowners that want a good sized, healthy, easily managed, long lived tree. Restricted forms and dwarfs it may be desirable to grow differently, but the tools for training may still come in handy as well as the philosophy of thinking of training as a directing and re-directing of resources and the concepts of dominance and co-dominance. They should be especially useful, the more defined,unnatural and specific the tree form goals are, for instance in training special shapes on walls or trellises, or growing fantastical forms. Once it's all laid out it's quite simple really, but time and again, I've noted that the obvious is not so obvious to us. I think a major problem with common recommendations is that they have poorly defined goals that are not explained well enough. The methods I use here are not new under the sun, and weren't in 1925 either. For whatever reasons though, I've never seen them brought together in one place. I think we can not only improve this as a collective experiment going forward, but possibly come up with something even better. Whatever happens, I have my sights set on the forehead of common fruit tree training recommendations, because I've adequately proven to myself that they suck and that we can do so much better. I can't emphasize enough how important this information could be toward changing that. I will post a link soon to the original apple tree framework study right here. hopefully later today.

[@hobartfloyt6820]

Thank you for this video. Like you I find the generally accepted practices leave something to be desired. Even a comprehensive pruning book showing several pruning methods will not cover what to do if the tree reacts differently to the pruning than what is expected or if you have a problem tree. I have Enterprise on a Geneva dwarfing rootstock and when I planted it I made the heading cut that everyone advised. Apparently my tree was not reading the literature. The leader grew 5 feet and only two branches formed which were two feet up on the leader. It took me a lot of time reading about pruning, nicking, and notching to figure what out what to do. Finally, I decided to cut 1 ½ feet off the leader and cut the branches back to 2 inch stubs. It worked and I got plenty of branching along the trunk to my great relief. None of the guides do a good job at showing you if a tree looks like this you have this problem and that problem is corrected by doing these cuts. I think your video is a step in the right direction. Thanks again for addressing generic recommendations and their short comings.

[@demagmusic]

Perfect timing, my Skillcult acquired seeds are doing great. Ended up with 11 saplings from 12 seeds. I can't wait to have 4' tall whips!

[@SkillCult]

I would probably let those grow, that is more or less what I do. They say the trees need to develop a certain number of buds before they are likely to fruit. I don't really train them much. Of course they are also a complete mess and I'm having to go in now and at least make a little room. If you are going to grow them as full size trees spaced apart, then I'd train them up nice though. My stuff is packed into those rows on 12 inch centers.

[@SkillCult]

Oh, and good luck with those, fingers crossed :)

[@demagmusic]

Thanks! last night was the last frost on the forecast, so my little babies just went out into the cold frame this morning. I'm expecting a nice explosion of growth now that they'll be getting full sun. Can't wait to move them out into the soil later this year

[@guymansford7123]

Thank you so much for these videos and all the thought you've put into this. The study you link to is really valuable and despite being nearly 100 years old is still incredibly relevant today. The combination of spacing the scaffold branches and notching rather than just hoping is brilliant. Thanks and keep them coming!

[@adronlamb9334]

I just discovered notching and it solved issues I was having with store bought trees that had all the lower branches pruned off. Instead of chopping the top off and growing all new branches, notches can be made where I want lower branches. Thanks, I also have seedlings that are about a year old and this answered some questions I was having about branching

[@SkillCult]

It can work very, very well. Sometimes the tree just has it's own plans, but I've been amazed how effective it is. Isolation, as it pushing growth to certain areas by removing growing points in general is also a major key and can work in conjunction with notching to make it more effective. There is a video where I train up a pear tree and talk more about some of that stuff.

[@LolitasGarden]

Learning the reasons why orchardists make the cuts they make is extremely helpful. So often the advice I'm exposed to is all how-to. "Use sharp shears." "Create an even shape." I prefer the why-do approach to learning. Thanks for the teachins. What pants are you wearing?

[@SkillCult]

Right, without the reason why, you can't adapt and the art requires some understanding. I'm going to keep trying to spell this stuff out clearly, because it never really was for me. those are Duluth Trading firehose work pants. I wear the Canvas ones in the winter and the flex firehose in the summer. They are great. Probably the best pants I've ever owned. I do have some quibbles but I try not to wear anything else anymore. If you catch them on sale, I think they are about 55.00. Also, search for coupons online. If you want to try them, start with the regular firehose work pant. They are what Carhart's should be and soft out of the box.

[@wrathofsocrus]

Excellent demonstration and explanation as always! Thanks!

[@SkillCult]

Thank you.

[@rebeccaburnell9319]

Our community permaculture project is having a grafting workshop on Saturday; I've been waiting impatiently for it all winter. It'll be my first time doing any grafting, though I've been watching your videos & Living Web Farms' videos & Mark Shepard videos & videos about Miracle Orchard for a couple of years now. Thank you for all of the incredible, in-depth content you put out. I'll be establishing trees this year that will eventually be used to see what comes from a small cold-hardy apple breeding project. My involvement with the community permaculture group means I have free access to about a dozen varieties of scion wood, since the community food forest is at ~100 apple trees, and I believe we'll be establishing a cold-hardy rootstock propagation project this year, too. Exciting spring here!

[@SkillCult]

That does sound exciting. Are you establishing base trees to framework seedlings onto? I think Alber Etter did some of his trials that way. I thought about it, but dwarf trial rows made more sense here I think. I was just reading about frostbite recently. mnhardy.umn.edu/varieties/fruit/apples These guys have put out some amazing apples over the years and some very unique stuff to work with. They often have good disease resistance and always hardy. I use the genes here for breeding just because of quality, but for a stable of cold hardy apples to work with, there is amazing potential. Have fun. The main barrier for newcomers in grafting is sharpening and using knives effectively. It really pays to use a knife a lot, and especially practicing on prunings or just willow sticks or whatever you can get your hands on. If the grafts are clean and they look good and tight and close fitting, you'll usually have good percentage of takes.

[@hardpad5679]

thanks for showing the actual notching up close at the end of the video, that was helpfull!

[@dminor214]

Yes! Thanks for another apple video.

[@SkillCult]

:)

[@ingerhaugland6763]

This is so awesome. Really, thank you so much for putting this information out there. And explained so clearly, I feel like I learned a lot. Can't wait to try this with this year's grafts. Cheers from Norway, I have been loving your channel since i found it. :)

[@SkillCult]

Thanks Inger :)

[@elkhound25]

fantastic information...thank you ! cant wait to see more. its helping me out a lot.

[@SkillCult]

Just this basic start would improve results all around, but I have a few more things to add over 2 to 4 years, and there is just a lot of possibility for innovation moving forward and for evolving systems and recommendations. My main interest is to evolve informed, but simple and accessible training methods, but also to create a paradigm shift that gets us thinking more about just how trees grow and the best tools for guiding and manipulating that to desired ends. Of course the ends are a whole other topic as well. There are a lot of different forms and potential goals.

[@valley3621]

Great information! The whole idea of common recommendations seems to permeate everything. I read, use common sense, and then do what I want. The need to be a professional out of the gate with no mistakes seems to pervade common thought. This sucks because it stops so many from doing anything. You inspired me to start apples from seeds so I've got 15 seedlings to experiment with. Thank you for providing professional grade material and an outstanding philosophy that doesn't mirror the social media BS that saturates everything.

[@SkillCult]

Yes, well even if we know that, it's often easier said than done to think outside the box. I've noticed a real trend toward conservative fear based action in gardening in general for some reason. It's common elsewhere too of course, maybe I just notice it more in gardening. Good luck with your seedlings. I have about 18 or 20 blooming this year. Fingers crossed that some make it to fruition.

[@tobychaplin6040]

Great video. I was literally just wondering how one crowns a tree, I hope this is a topic you visit later in the series.

[@SkillCult]

I already have roughly outlined a series of lectures and videos. Also, experiments that could be pretty large scale to answer the growing number of questions. As to what of all that will actually happen, we'll see. I hope to do a lot more though and at least follow these trees. I like those two forms for large trees, but there are lots of forms and probably more awaiting development.

[@CraigOverend]

I can see why you like starting from whips. I'll have to try more disbudding and notching. Have you found notching helps older trees to encourage specific branch growth? And any anecdotal evidence on which techniques have been your most productive? The moment you mentioned spacing and the even spacing you used made me think about experimenting with nonlinear spacing. I also remembered reading a tomato pruning study that found stem pruning didn't change the yield, only the size of the fruits, and another study showed that more yield came from pruning branches to get more light transmission through the upper branches to lower. Since reading those and because I usually don't have much space to experiment on trees I've always pruned based on those.

[@SkillCult]

Yes, definitely you can encourage growth of small or dormant branches on older subjects by notching. I"ve started new scaffolds by notching a dormant bud on the main trunk of 3 to 6 year old trees at least. It's not ideal, because it's hard to catch them up with the rest of the tree, but growing stuff is messy as you know, now matter how well you set it up. Notching is incredibly effective on apple and pears. On other stuff it is not always as predictable, but it can be. Sweet Cherry has been the hardest to train, but Golden Russet apple is the pain in but butt too. Still, I have been able to get DOC and MCL trees in almost ever case that I've been persistent. Heading back is a useful tool at times too, it's just over used and seems to be often unnecessary. It usually recommended to force branching and thicken the trunk, but also to balance the root. I think all of those are usually unnecessary. The root can be balanced (root to top ratio) by removing buds and thinning growth and it's often not even necessary anyway. Heading back to thicken the stem seems to be unnecessary, though it might help in some cases, there is always staking. And, these methods can be used to not only replace forcing the shoots out, but we get to put them where we want. Of course, I am coming primarily from a small scale perspective. I can imagine that it might be best to just walk along chopping off the new trees in a large commercial operation. Still, I'm inclined to think that training more carefully would pay off in the long run in spite of the extra expense. Light is critical for fruit production and quality and all commercial orchardsts are aware of that. Some people talk against pruning, but there are valid reasons for it, not the least of which are shaping the tree for good light and keeping it open.

[@merrymakersinc.7404]

Thank you for spending the time to make this vid. Your work is always so informative.

[@SkillCult]

Thank you.

[@kingdavidapple]

Experience with Winekist apple suggests it might be one cultivar that would need some support with this modified central leader method. It's just a thin whippy thing. On the other hand, I was concerned to know how to develop a delayed open center for an Ersinger plum maiden (several branches on a several-year -old tree on sale) that had branches way too low. I'll cut away those I don't want, let the top twig grow vertically (softly tie, if need be) & use your method when appropriate. Might have to wait another year. That's OK. Thanks! BTW, one Mere Pippin scion, purchased from you, took onto Geneva 30 last year. It was a small root, so it is only about 9 inches tall from the graft, but looks fine. This is one I will not trim, since it is a natural spike. I want to know how tall it grows on this stock & how soon it will begin blooming. Pretty stoked about the possibilities.

[@ungarelli81]

Thank you so much for these videos! I'm learning so much. I'm curious, is there any point in using these techniques, disbudding and notching, on older trees? Maybe you have a video about that that I missed? Thanks again!! 😀

[@SkillCult]

it can work sometimes, but it's iffy. The older the wood and the more established the tree, the less it probably works.

[@johnlord8337]

10* Great vid. Have never seen this topic with Dave Wilson, let alone my own PNW orchard training.

[@SkillCult]

As far as I've seen dave wilson uses the same clip and pray type of approach that was popular in 1925 and still is today. It ultimately results in a tree of some kind. That's about all I can say for it at this point, except it's very simple and easy.

[@lylovm]

Hi! Thank you very much for sharing your work! I was wondering about cutting back the top part of the tree (you speak of it in the end) In Russia, where I come from, the university orchardists have an opinion that cutting back a freshly planted tree is required for reestablishing correlation between its crone and root. It supposedly helps to "match" their respective size of above- and underground parts so to avoid overstrain of roots in the summer. Perhaps picking up the buds, as you did in the video acts the similar way. By the way, did you plant the trees in the video in autumn? How often do you water young trees in the summer months? Your project is really cool, I really appreciate how you allow others to learn together with you. Thanks!

[@SkillCult]

I agree that it can be good to balance roots and shoots on a bareroot or otherwise compromised tree. But most repeat that rule about topping as a dogma without testing or questioning it. The 1920 framework study tested it to assess the truth of that common knowledge and find it's limits. Important to understand is that it is about growth and growing points, not just about how the tree is cut so much. Disbudding also reduces the growing points and top growth, driving the limited energy into fewer shoots. Bottom line is if the tree is healthy and well cared for, it can grow a nice set of scaffolds in a year if this approach is taken. How well that works on all species and situations remains to be seen and given widely variable and unideal circumstances, there may be an argument for simple heading cuts for that one reason. but I think anyone that is involved at all, beyond planting and walking away, this type of more sophisticated approach working with the natural growing habits and physiology of the tree will prove to be much better.

[@nickhall6782]

Wow amazing work Stephen! I'm going to try this.

[@SkillCult]

it's a revelation to me honestly. I knew I was not satisfied with what I was doing, but the first time I went for it and trained a tree this way, I had four perfect spaced and directional scaffolds the same size at the end of the first season and I've never looked back.

[@nkynative2850]

Any videos on bridge grafting to fix girdled trees? Squirrels have nearly killed my 2 apple trees. I appreciate these videos a ton, i plan on making a Pawpaw-frankentree May 1st and i learned most of my grafting and pruning info from this channel.

[@SkillCult]

No, I've actually never done it, though I was hoping to fix a couple of trees this year. Get a pellet rifle. Squirrels are yummy :P

[@balazsotvos2530]

Your videos are soo useful!

[@1hillbilly]

I learned of Albert Etter from you. Added his Pink Pearl this year. It has leafed out. Thank you.

[@SkillCult]

Fun. That is the only red fleshed apple he released I believe.

[@SkillCult]

I mean the only one he patented and released officially. I might be wrong, but most of them were released later by greenmantle nursery.

[@douglasanderson7301]

ditto and ditto on Greenmantle nursery.

[@downeastprimitiveskills7688]

Great stuff! While pruning I come to some varieties and it is near perfect and nothing needs to be done to it, and then in the next row, Wow! that tree is just going wild and nothing is doing what I picture it should be like. I do my best with it. What are your thoughts on staking trees with conduit for stability? Will it train a tree to be weak or are dwarf stock benefited with a stake? Dealing with apple borers now, nasty buggers, I like the file method, seems controlled. Our Organic certification doesn't like latex paint..... Will a lime white wash do the same thing as latex paint? sun scald in the winter and borer observation in the summer, white is easy to see orange frass.

[@SkillCult]

Staking is fine, just don't stake anything tight, let them move around in the wind and the stake and line is a tether to stop it from going too far. If it's windy, lean the tree slightly into the prevailing wind at planting. If that isn't going well in the first year or two, you can probably re-adjust it a little. The 1925 study suggested that as a means to prevent trees from taking a set or blowing over from wind. As soon as the tree is able to stand on it's own, let it. Of course some, in some ground on some stocks may be too weak and will have to remain staked. I'd still try to give them a little room to wobble around. It is that stress that makes them adapt and toughen up. I don't deal with chronic wind and extreme winds are very brief usually, so it is not a big problem for me. I've had to stake trees here and there during establishment, but no serious problems with that sort of thing. Usually just one or two years and they can stand on their own. Yes, varieites of apple in particular are all over the place. For instance, no one knows what to do with a golden russet. The ideal DOC or MCL tree, the branches come out and then up, but some varieties will only grow out and down right away. In some cases you can work with them and others they just don't want to grow a certain way. Others want to grow straight up. Tydemans Late Orange always pushed vertical shoots off the limbs, non-stop. That alone makes pruning and training much more art than science. I just found a ton of borer damage on my nice Gold Rush Tree. Super bummerland. Guitar strings work great for poking up into the burrows. I don't blame them, I wouldn't allow it either. You can use milk paint, but lime wash alone will not work. It is not strong and it has to be applied in very thin layers. If you put it on thick, it's just chalky. It might get you through the season I guess, but it's not very good. Add casein or buy milk paint in dry form and probably mix it on the thin side.

[@downeastprimitiveskills7688]

Thanks, I'll look into the milk paint that may be the ticket. We also have a wooden door in the works that should have some kind of milk paint applied to it. If I'm not mistaken it is the Golden Russet that is just doing its thing and hardly needs to be trained. On a side note, on the wilder side of things I have heard of people subscribing to letting apple trees go feral. I know wild blueberries will put out bigger yields when pruned.

[@SkillCult]

Yep, Golden Russet is a pain. It's hard to train as well. it want's to grow like a cherry tree, with long bare stems and tiers of branches in whorls. Then the branches want to grow long and bare. I think the ticket for that one is going to be to leave it alone mostly once it's established and prune out larger stuff to open the tree once in a while. It just wants to do it's own thing. I'm not sure though just when mine was doing well, a bear took it out. then my other has been disbudded and butchered by pack rats three times. eVerytime it grows back. grrrr. The no-prune people are not usually accounting for fruit quality. Pruning can give larger, redder, but most importantly, sweet and flavorful fruit. Much of the art and science of pruning and training is about getting light to the fruit and into the inside of the tree to keep the inside productive as well. Productivity may be more or less, I'm not sure, probably depends, but many trees will overbear and break branches. Training and pruning also allows us to thin, maintain and pick more easily. I'm sure there is a place for no-prune, but with apples. I won't let any of my trees go that way. Natural is not always better, it depends on goals and other circumstances.

[@EddyPrice]

Nice Cali Quails singing in the background.

[@SkillCult]

They always nest in this area, so they are around a lot. They had a good nesting year last year, so there are going to be a lot this spring and probably this summer.

[@KyleMerl]

Interesting stuff and I'm looking forward to the upcoming videos on this topic! Is there anything you can do to prevent them from getting snapped in half? Has that ever been a problem for you? With them being so skinny, I'd think it wouldn't take much for them to get snapped in half. I have never attempted to grow a fruit tree so I know nothing about it, but I plan to plant some when I move to a house that has a yard that is better suited for growing things.

[@SkillCult]

It's not common. I only have it happen when locusts cut the wood and lay eggs. They like to do that in fruit trees. notching too deep on very small or fresh growing wood could definitely cause it. I would like to experiment with how little we could get away with cutting or notching to force a bud to grow without overly weakening the stem. In one year old wood it should not be a problem, just take the bark off and scrape the wood surface a little and that's good enough.

[@nineallday000]

Im not super comfortable using latex paint, no studies or anything but just thinking that i dont want latex getting into my soil eventually, was wondering if you had any tips for anything else you could use to whitewash your trunk with? Know that its a bit extreme but my wife is so paranoid about chemicals and modern humanity that i am not allowed to own any paint, glues, etc. haha Love your videos super helpful just now as we have 150 trees that we grew from seed and then grafted (left some to try out the fruit first too) and now will start training them this year.

[@wayneessar7489]

nineallday000 If you ever need paper paste make it from wheat starch and boiling water.

[@SkillCult]

I have a recipe I'm working on, but not ready to put it out there yet. You could try Milk paint. It can be purchased dry and mixed as needed. It should be 100% non toxic if you get the right one. I understand though. I have to do some painting and I'm going to buy zero VOC. We are all part of a big uncontrolled experiment with all the substances we are now exposed to. Some people probably take those exposures in stride, and others are more affected.

[@ajones8699]

In France and a around the med, I think they use chaulk.

[@noequus1494]

Is there a way to encourage creation of new buds, where there aren't enough to choose from? I have a 3 year old plant that I want to espalier but I'm afraid to cut the top off near the bottom-most wire (the first tier of a cordon) because I'm not sure there are any buds below there.

[@SkillCult]

only where there are or were branches. Some species can throw buds all over the place, but most fruit trees they will be from just at branch sites or bases. some of the dormant buds are very small, but you can spot them if you look close. notching above them or cutting right above will often make them grow out.

[@nickhall6782]

I tried this yesterday and wasn't exactly clear on how you remove dormant buds (our trees are still dormant here as our spring went late). Do you scrape off the bud with your fingernail down to the cambium, or is that too far? Some of them I scraped off like that and it took some bark off and I was thinking that was perhaps more than I should be doing.

[@SkillCult]

Just pick them off real quick with a thumbnail. No need to go too deep or anything. cutting out a small bit of bark shouldn't hurt. The tree is going to grow rapidly and should heal fast.

[@chifylube]

Thank you for your videos. Do you have an update on these specific trees?

[@SkillCult]

No, I didn't take good enough care of them to get much significant growth. The only real lesson was trees don't grow if you don't take care of them :)

[@jacebohannon9308]

Thanks for the knowledge

[@SkillCult]

:)

[@parintele-]

1. Notching to induce branching works best when is done just before budbrake. After that, the auxin hormone which inhibit bud developement is already working and producing it's effect, inhibiting branching. Also, this procedure should not be done too early as the sascular tissue could be repaired before budbrake and sap could reach and inhibit the bud. Around 2 weeks beforebubrake is the optimal time to notch. 2. All the shoots will grow upwards, tree grows in order to reach light exposure and light come from above. The fact that some shoots grow lateral is because the upper space is taken by other shoots...when upper space is taken, shoots are forced to grow outwards in order to reach light.

[@SkillCult]

I've had quite good luck in the past with notching well after bud break, though I haven't paid enough attention to have any numbers or anything. Also, most experience is still with apples. I was worried it wouldn't work, but it seems to work pretty well. I do prefer to do that work early though before the tree starts growing. What percentage of buds would you say have failed to respond to notching for you after bud break v.s. before? I think that there are probably other interventions that affect it as well. Reducing competition by bud and shoot removal probably has an effect, also cutting back when trying to get branches to grow out more. There are a many experiments that could be undertaken to look at the interactions between various interventions at different times in the growth timeline. Where does the two weeks before bud break come from? Do you have a study link or something? Are you saying all shoots that are notched will always grow out at an upward angle? I don't think I've noticed that. I'll be paying more attention though. Regardless, It hasn't kept me from getting good branch angles in the end, but I do check and make adjustments in the early summer. Thanks for the input.

[@parintele-]

SkillCult www.google.ro/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=journal.ashspublications.org/content/119/4/678.full.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjW7bz5o67bAhVsJJoKHYQuA7AQFjADegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw2rCywiWSwLp-eY-m04vPCQ

[@parintele-]

SkillCult And no, when I said all shoots would grow vertical I was reffering in general to shoot growing behavior. Is the "program" of nature...grow/invest where resources/profit is. Light /space is a resource and the tree will grow/invest energy where the light comes from..not down to the ground, not in shaded areas. So, when nothing is above, the tree will invest in upright grow...when there is something but still is plenty of space and light available, codominant shoots will grow.. What is growing beneath will grow lateral as the second best option, go "around" ...then,the branch will continue to grow more vertical than lateral...

[@parintele-]

SkillCult regarding the sap: Water loaded with disolved salts( raw/brute sap i guess is called in english/xilem sap) travel up thru wood tissue by some complex chemical principles... In the leaf the minerals are converted into shugars using light( photosinthesys). This is the processed food of the plant, it travels back to feed all the plant organs( including roots) thru liberian tissue( phloem) which is just under the bark( near cambium layer). This phloem sap travel down using gravity as a driving force.. So, notching... 1. Above the bud in the spring..sap coming down from the apical bud also transport the inhibitor hormone so interruption of the sapflow stops the hormone to inhibit growth of the bud. 2. Beneath the bud, in the summer. Once the bud grows and we have a shoot, by notching beneath we interrupt the sap flow down....all the food from the above leaces and from the shoot itself will not go down but stop to feed that shoot ...for that reason,the grow of that shoot will be stronger.

[@parintele-]

SkillCult Last thing. Look for the knipboom technology to induce branching. You can stimulate branching in the first year of growth by pinching the tip ( not all, not apical bud, just the tip of the leafes on the tip). This way you stimulate branching in the " nursery" and do not need to wait till the next season....you can pinch several times in order to stimilate as many frathers you need.

[@David-kd5mf]

Great video!

[@SkillCult]

Thanks.

[@timobreumelhof88]

I like the video and your Opinel knife ;-)

[@congamike1]

This is great! Thanks

[@SkillCult]

Hi Mike :)

[@thomasavtjern2427]

Thank you so much for putting this out! I have a question for you regarding planting apple trees. Any soil amendments you would suggest? Anyting you do differently for seedlings and 2-3 year old trees?

[@SkillCult]

Amendments completely depend on the soil. A comprehensive trace mineral test is a good idea. I take a very haphazard approach to fertilizing when I even do it, but I have added trace minerals in the past. Watch video #2 for two and three year old tree training. Seedlings are the same as grafted.

[@moniquegebeline4350]

This is so great but only my dolgo was a whip my other apples already have small scaffolds. I hope you can translate this info on peach and pear/Asian pear and even more so CHERRY. Awesome videos - maybe if you have time too you can go into ‘water sprouts’? Vs spurs and buds vs leaf buds and all the anatomy and lingo for us ignorant beginners lol! Xoxo

[@SkillCult]

F*&^%ing Cherries lol. I've had the most trouble training sweet cherries. They really want to grow tiers of branches between basically bare stems, or stems studded with fruit spurs. For the most part, these ideas and techniques should translate pretty well. When our main technique has been to cut the thing off and pray for good branch spacing, it's pretty hard not to improve that a little with a more thoughful approach. I'm not amazing with lingo actually, but I probably should more often define what I'm talking about. It's hard to remember to do that and that everyone doesn't already know what I'm talking about. Someday, after more experienced gained, and maybe some formal experiments, I'd like to package these ideas for mass consumption and easy use for people coming home from the nursery with a tree.

[@moniquegebeline4350]

SkillCult That would be awesome for newbies like me who are completely clueless lol . I wish I had done more research before I purchased- a local here orders bare root trees in bulk and pots them for resale to make extra cash (he’s a vet, so I was happy to support him). The trees look super healthy really- but I need to learn how to prune them better for back yard orchard culture to keep them smaller (they’re all standard rootstock and I wish I knew which they used but I don’t). I do have two acres and I’m really contemplating just putting the cherries in the back and letting them grow larger. I been watching Dave Wilson videos and they’ve been great, I just don’t know all the lingo yet and how to identify what. I been nervous to do anything since they’re out of dormancy and it’s already mid 80s here so the plan is to research now and do a summer pruning for size and waiting to do shaping when they go dormant in winter. They all look to be nicely shaped but I know I’ll need to open them up it’s humid here and they will need good air and sun. Thanks for the reply! I suppose I have lots of help here on you tube and I actually learned a more in depth representation of the methods the Wilson company recommended on your Channel so thanks for that! ❤️

[@SkillCult]

The good thing is that they really want to grow and fruit and will keep trying no matter how much we screw them up. They just don't always grow and organize themselves in the way that is actually best for them. Growth in the tree is a lot like self competiion between the different parts. Most training and pruning is for light, air, size, productivity (or reduction of overproduction) and strength of structure. As you learn how each type fruits, it starts making more sense. There are restricted forms for cherries that are used I think. You might look into those, like espalier or cordons, or other trellised systems. BTW, have had no trouble with sour cherry. They are much more amenable to training it seems.

[@ajones8699]

All makes good sense to me..

[@jeffery19677]

Do you ever root those cuttings to give you more rootstock or scions?

[@SkillCult]

Apple cuttings don't usually root very easily. Some varieties do and some don't. I haven't done it that much, but the few times I've tried rudimentary methods I've failed.

[@quintond.7888]

Very cool. Could this work to help prevent pears from being quite so crotchy? The pears I grew up around are ~120-150 year old Bartletts and they're super fragile (but still alive). I'd like to grow some from their seed and improve the structure if possible.

[@SkillCult]

By crotch do you mean with narrow crotches and split, or too many branches?

[@quintond.7888]

I meant too narrow of an angle on the crotch, sorry I didn't convey that well. The old pears on the family farm as well as the one in my back yard are all really shallow. I always assumed this to be the nature of the tree? I guess I need to get the edible landscape book. Lol

[@SkillCult]

That's what I thought, I just wasn't sure So, some species and varieties are prone to narrow crotches and pears are for sure. When the shoot is young and flexible in about June or so, bend it down near the base of the shoot to 45 degrees or wider. Use a clothespin clipped to the trunk to hold it down. If you put the clothespin low enough it will just push it and hold it down. it's a delicate operation, but it works. In a month or so, they should set into that shape. With pears, they will still tend to grow upward, but as long as the angle it leaves the trunk at is good, it will never get bark trapped in the crotches. I'll be doing that with these trees in a video when they are ready.

[@quintond.7888]

Thanks! I'm a super dummy when it comes to orchard keeping. I'll definitely give that a try.

[@rodrickcampbell8817]

When you notch is it done on the side where the bud is growing or opposite?

[@SkillCult]

Same side as, and directly above the bud.

[@rodrickcampbell8817]

Thank-you.

[@krazyforkale]

Bring your camera in close to show the details of what you are cutting!

[@osccvh]

IV Organics on in SoCal as latex paint substitute that's organic? Seen his vids on KZbin

[@SkillCult]

Cool. I have a recipe, I just have to get around to mixing it up and using it. It's not latex or anything similar.

[@angrybees8122]

How do i lower the scaffolding on a 2-3 year old tree?

[@SkillCult]

that could be difficult or impossible. It might work too. It will be better if it is still a small diameter and has plenty of buds. One option is to cut it way back and regrow the whole thing. The other option would be looking for viable buds to notch to see if they will grow out. I can't really say without being there.

[@douglasanderson7301]

Will methods also work for stone fruit?

[@SkillCult]

They should work pretty well, but I haven't had a chance to test a lot yet. Apples are especially easy and well behaved for the most part.

[@SkillCult]

I'd love to put in a large scale set of trials to test out of different species, but it would require funding and a project manager. I already have a lot of the experiments outlined.

[@daviddavenport2665]

have you ever heard of a apple that taste like concord grapes

[@SkillCult]

Not that I can recall, have you?

[@daviddavenport2665]

yeah i got an old apple tree in my woods . fertilzes a couple of years ago been pruning last few years going to try graveing it this year. green apple very great tasteing.

[@SkillCult]

Sounds neat. You should distribute some scion wood. I"ll graft it. I'm always looking for weird flavors. You should name it though if it's a wild tree.

[@daviddavenport2665]

i will keep in touch. if you want some il could send you some next year trade for some bite me. do some testing i live in zone 5 upstate new york

[@SkillCult]

Sure, we can trade stuff. Do you think it's a seedling or planted?